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  1. #4401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Milk thistle is native to southern Europe. I'd say unless you are in southern Europe, kill it, wild habitat or not.

    There are probably native thistles in the area that would appreciate it.

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    Oops, didnít know that. On second thought, kill it!
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  2. #4402
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    These guys were on the move, couldnít get a good picture.

    The Bird Thread...-p1030546a.jpg

    The Bird Thread...-p1030550a.jpg

    The Bird Thread...-p1030551a.jpg

  3. #4403
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    Nice!
    Sandhill Cranes.
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  4. #4404
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    Nice! They are around my area as well. Cool, big birds and prehistoric.

  5. #4405
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    Yep, and there kind of a nuisance, they hit their beak on my lower windows, while looking at their reflection, Ill chase them away, and they'll be back in 10 minutes, dumb birds, that have a pretty cool prehistoric callÖ

    I was downloading the pictures of the cranes, and noticed these pictures on my camera, Wood ducks that come back ever spring.

    The Bird Thread...-p1030504a.jpg

    The Bird Thread...-p1030506a.jpg

  6. #4406
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    Love the Wood Ducks. We had a great conversation about them a page or two back.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    I built a nesting box for them in the spring, I donít think they used it, I'll check it out tomorrow.

    The Bird Thread...-img_6184d.jpg

    The Bird Thread...-img_6185d.jpg

  8. #4408
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    Beautiful little puddle jumps they are! Nice that you have ponds.


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  9. #4409
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    Nope, maybe next year, probably still has that new smell.

    The Bird Thread...-img_6551a.jpg

  10. #4410
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    Bummer, cool box though. I was thinking it was too low to the ground.

    Edit: After I said that I looked it up. It seems youíve done everything right. It should be 6í off the ground or water.

    Good tips on it here. https://nestwatch.org/learn/all-abou...rds/wood-duck/
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    Yep, that link is similar to the one I used, 4 to 6 feet off the ground, my installation pictures are dated April 7th, the pictures of the Wood ducks were April 9th, I think that was the first time this year that I noticed them, the Nesting box probably had my scent on it.

    Here's one from today when I got home from my ride, Great Blue Heron.

    The Bird Thread...-p1030555a.jpg

  12. #4412
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    Fwiw, very few birds have any sort of sense of smell. Vultures being the major exception. I would guess the box didn't get used because of site preferences. Given time, some birds will choose to use it once they find it.
    Quote Originally Posted by tmbrown View Post
    Yep, that link is similar to the one I used, 4 to 6 feet off the ground, my installation pictures are dated April 7th, the pictures of the Wood ducks were April 9th, I think that was the first time this year that I noticed them, the Nesting box probably had my scent on it.

    Here's one from today when I got home from my ride, Great Blue Heron.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #4413
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    Nevermore, Nevermore!

    The Bird Thread...-img_0617.jpg

  14. #4414
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    You went to the zoo?
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  15. #4415
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    You went to the zoo?
    Negatory - this was right outside of my window.

  16. #4416
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    Negatory - this was right outside of my window.
    Where?

    BTW I like your new avatar.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  17. #4417
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Where?

    BTW I like your new avatar.
    I've had that Avatar since you made it in April - LOL.

    We live at Traverse Mountain Utah - this bird has been a frequent visitor outside of our kitchen window.

  18. #4418
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    I've had that Avatar since you made it in April - LOL.

    We live at Traverse Mountain Utah - this bird has been a frequent visitor outside of our kitchen window.
    Shows how much I pay attention.

    Iím stumped on that bird. I even went searching birds in your state and found nothing like that one. I can tell you that you are in a prime state for bird viewing. Quite a few diverse species.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  19. #4419
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Shows how much I pay attention.

    Iím stumped on that bird. I even went searching birds in your state and found nothing like that one. I can tell you that you are in a prime state for bird viewing. Quite a few diverse species.
    Its not a Raven? That's the reference to Edgar Allen Poe - nevermore.

  20. #4420
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  21. #4421
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    ^^^^ Bad-ass eagle!

    Ravens and crows can be difficult to differentiate. The tail inflight is the easiest way to tell the difference.
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  22. #4422
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    Its not a Raven? That's the reference to Edgar Allen Poe - nevermore.
    It's definitely corvid. While crows and ravens can be easy to tell apart at times, other times it can be surprisingly difficult. Their voice is a dead giveaway, though.

    https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/...mpare/63739541

    The American crow/fish crow distinction is a really tough one, which is a distinction worth knowing in the southeast and up the Atlantic coast.

    https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/...mpare/70580031

    I think in your pic, the bits of pale coloration around the beak and forehead are throwing DJ. I don't think it's anything unusual. The pale bit under the beak is a function of camera angle and the mouth being open, it appears.

    juvenile common raven


    juvenile American crow


    It's harder to figure the pale patch on the forehead, but everything else about this bird screams corvid to me. So I think your ID is between an American crow and a raven, for sure. Unfortunately, your pic doesn't give a good frame of reference for relative size, so I've got no major problem with your impressions that it's a raven. Though everything I've read about ravens researching this suggests that ravens are less likely to be seen around built-up environments. They like it a bit wilder than crows.

  23. #4423
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    I donít know Harold. The body is too slender for a Raven or a Crow. The green tint also throws me off. I think we must dig deeper on this one. Iíve seen many Crows and Ravens up close and this one just doesnít look the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  24. #4424
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    Another angle
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The Bird Thread...-img_0616.jpg  


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    The Bird Thread...-e50feb8c-97b2-4d1f-be05-1ef31a5c9b9d.jpeg
    The Bird Thread...-77435db6-e491-4077-a6f8-67dade3bb875.jpeg
    Raven
    The legs are different, the green tinted feathers and the bill is not as thick. So Iíve got my doubts.
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  26. #4426
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    The legs are different, the green tinted feathers and the bill is not as thick. So Iíve got my doubts.
    It's worth pointing out that the picture is through a window, and that screws around with colors and overall picture quality. I still don't see enough to overrule BCTJ's ID of raven.

  27. #4427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It's worth pointing out that the picture is through a window, and that screws around with colors and overall picture quality. I still don't see enough to overrule BCTJ's ID of raven.
    What about the beak the legs the slender body. Iím overruling and saying itís still a mystery bird. Probably an escaped convict from the Salt Lake City Zoo.
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  28. #4428
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    Not different enough for me to doubt raven
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    What about the beak the legs the slender body. Iím overruling and saying itís still a mystery bird. Probably an escaped convict from the Salt Lake City Zoo.
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  29. #4429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Not different enough for me to doubt raven

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    I thought science was the art of elimination. The beak is different, the body bulk and shape is different and the legs are very different. That tells me itís not a Raven but some other yet to be identified bird. I left the different color out if it.
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  30. #4430
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I thought science was the art of elimination. The beak is different, the body bulk and shape is different and the legs are very different. That tells me itís not a Raven but some other yet to be identified bird.
    There is an enormous amount of variation that can come from simple body position. The beak is nothing other than crow or raven. Too many details match the general group. Looking at LOTS of pictures of both birds, I cannot definitively put it on either species. The best identification is size, which I can't get well from the pic, but the photographer could get a better impression of. I simply don't have enough information to say anything other than crow or raven.

    If the photographer says raven, I don't have enough to say it is not.

    https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Common_Raven/id

    Note here that the raven is described as being more SLENDER than a crow.

    This raven looks fairly slender, and it's not even trying to stretch out.



    It may be that it's not a common raven, but a Chihuahuan raven.

    https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/...Raven/overview



    BCTJ's location may be outside their usual range, but that doesn't necessarily rule it out entirely. I've personally seen birds 1,000mi from their usual range. When I worked at the ornithology center last summer, I had someone call saying that they thought they might be crazy, but they thought they had black-bellied whistling ducks in central Indiana.

    https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/...Whistling-Duck

    The closest their "usual" summer range gets to Indiana is Mississippi, and that's farther than OP to the Chihuahuan raven's "usual" range. Hell, there was a snowy owl in NC this past winter. That's a LOT farther from their usual winter range.

    https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/snowy_owl

    BCTJ's bird could be a plain 'ol common raven, but a juvenile of the species. It's certainly the time of year that we see juveniles of many species out and about. Everything about this bird screams corvid, though. It's not just some random "mystery bird" that's extremely nondescript. I may not be able to definitively pin it down to any of these species, but I can tell you that it's not anything else. There are too many features common to all of these birds that BCTJ's bird obviously has.

  31. #4431
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    Iím not going to debate all that but I can tell you that the legs are complety different than a Raven or a Crow. Iíve also never seen a Crow or a Raven with green tinted feathers. Not even in books have I or had a mention of. I know youíve mentioned that he was shooting through glass but both photos distinctly show a green tint.
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  32. #4432
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Iím not going to debate all that but I can tell you that the legs are complety different than a Raven or a Crow. Iíve also never seen a Crow or a Raven with green tinted feathers. Not even in books have I or had a mention of. I know youíve mentioned that he was shooting through glass but both photos distinctly show a green tint.
    calibrate your monitor? That's something I've put a bit of effort into, since I make maps on this computer that get printed for sale. I want to make sure colors display accurately.

    I don't see green. I see glare. I see mottled sunlight, possibly from the tree/shrub it's perched it. I see a haziness that's common to pictures shot through a window, especially through a screen. I see a pic that's not 100% in focus on the bird.

    The legs aren't entirely different. They don't look exactly the same as the pic you posted. But the differences in coloration can be attributed to many normal things. Is the example pic you shared from the same region? Is the example pic of a bird from the same age class? That's something that can be different in many bird species geographically as well as by age. It could also be muddled up somewhat by the lighting and glare. Maybe the bird is unhealthy.

    It's just not different ENOUGH to concern me.

  33. #4433
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    Iím not buying it ^. This shall go down as ďThe Great Raven Debate of 2018Ē.

    Yes the legs are entirely different. Pull up any Raven photo and look and compare the legs. As for the green tint. Iíve looked at these photos on 3 different screens and they all show the same green tint.
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  34. #4434
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    Can we somehow get Boris involved in the conversation.

  35. #4435
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    Can we somehow get Boris involved in the conversation.
    Where is he when you need him?
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  36. #4436
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    Maybe next time the bird comes by (if it comes by again) I can sneak outside and try to get a non-glass photo.

  37. #4437
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    Perhaps a DNA sample?
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  38. #4438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post

    I don't see green. I see glare. I see mottled sunlight, possibly from the tree/shrub it's perched it.
    I see the lighting issues exactly this way. Probably attribute the green tint to a camera color rendering error probably because of the white balance. I also think the bird looks very slender in the first photo, but the bulk is more evident in the second shot. In short, I think the photos aren't telling the whole truth.

  39. #4439
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    I sent these pics to a friend who's an ornithologist at VA Tech with a particular interest in the social structure and intelligence of corvids.

    She's not willing to make a 100% conclusive ID on the bird due to the lack of information, but she is leaning towards an immature raven. She agrees with my impression that it's 100% immature corvid, and possibly immature raven. She's leaning raven because it looks like there's a feathered area on top of the bill, which I think I see, also. She knows her shit, and anytime she disagrees with me on a bird with reasons, I defer to her.

  40. #4440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I sent these pics to a friend who's an ornithologist at VA Tech with a particular interest in the social structure and intelligence of corvids.

    She's not willing to make a 100% conclusive ID on the bird due to the lack of information, but she is leaning towards an immature raven. She agrees with my impression that it's 100% immature corvid, and possibly immature raven. She's leaning raven because it looks like there's a feathered area on top of the bill, which I think I see, also. She knows her shit, and anytime she disagrees with me on a bird with reasons, I defer to her.
    Whatís her number?
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  41. #4441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    Perhaps a DNA sample?
    I think this may be the only defining way to settle this.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  42. #4442
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Whatís her number?
    Lol, you're not her type.

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    I think ďThe Great Raven Debate of 2018Ē is on hold until further analysis. Possibly including DNA and or audible is captured.
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    You Guys need to move onÖ
    Now I'll bore you with more Sandhill Cranes.

    The Bird Thread...-p1030572a.jpg

    The Bird Thread...-p1030582a.jpg

    The Bird Thread...-p1030591a.jpg


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    I'd have to agree with BCTJ and Harold. This looks to be a juvenile Common Raven. I think Harold is correct about the reflection off of it's feathers making it look lighter colored splotchy in places.

    Here's another shot of a juvi Raven
    The Bird Thread...-common_raven_-_juvenile.jpg

  47. #4447
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    I'd have to agree with BCTJ and Harold. This looks to be a juvenile Common Raven. I think Harold is correct about the reflection off of it's feathers making it look lighter colored splotchy in places.

    Here's another shot of a juvi Raven
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Common_Raven_-_Juvenile.jpg 
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    The Bird Thread...-cf819441-7106-4780-9b5b-5ae71badcfaf.jpeg
    Legs are completely different.

    Nice Crane footage tmbrown. Thanks for the distraction.
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 2 Weeks Ago at 03:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  48. #4448
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Legs are completely different.

    Nice Crane footage tmbrown. Thanks for the distraction.
    And ďThe Great Raven Depate of 2018Ē lives on.

    Wait, what's a depate? I think that's the real question.
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

  49. #4449
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    And ďThe Great Raven Depate of 2018Ē lives on.

    Wait, what's a depate? I think that's the real question.
    Good catch, fixed.
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  50. #4450
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    Downey Woodpeckers feasting on Thistle seeds. Saw several hummingbirds in this same batch of plants as well.

    I didnít realize it at the time but after watching the video Iím thinking itís an adult and a juvenile. The adult was feeding the Juvi seeds.



    The Bird Thread...-dbde1b51-af25-4d4e-b1f4-426ffc83b010.jpg

    The Bird Thread...-a48d725f-a1c2-4870-bbd6-40f6ee1a35a7.jpg
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  51. #4451
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Legs are completely different.

    Nice Crane footage tmbrown. Thanks for the distraction.
    Ahhh...I donít think so. Eventually theyíll turn dark then black, like the feathers, beak and even their mouths turn grayish black.

    tmbrown has some tame Sandhills there.


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  52. #4452
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    Ahhh...I donít think so. Eventually theyíll turn dark then black, like the feathers, beak and even their mouths turn grayish black.

    tmbrown has some tame Sandhills there.


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    While I respect your opinion and all others on this matter. I have yet to find anywhere where a juvenile Ravens legs are that much or at all different than the adults. After reading your response I went looking again. Still havenít found anything on that. Feel free to link me up and prove me wrong.

    And just to keep the reference updated.

    The Bird Thread...-aef3f195-69d6-416d-9e96-458cee7fcf14.jpeg
    Bird in question above. Some think itís a juvenile Raven. I say itís not. The legs are way different. The other differences Include Coloration and bulk of body. Green tinted feathered. All Ravens Iíve ever seen or found on the net are BLACK with zero tint of color. Back to the legs.

    Juvenile Raven below:
    The Bird Thread...-15b1abdb-c3af-4ea3-83ed-8f1d9947e0e8.jpeg


    Adult Raven below:

    The Bird Thread...-37d79ee2-5733-4191-b0f2-94bd6428b927.jpeg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  53. #4453
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    I donít disagree with your statements above regarding a mature adult Raven. I and others here are saying itís a juvenile. Hereís a link to the photo I posted earlier of the juvenile Raven.https://www.hbw.com/ibc/photo/common...ging-attention


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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Downey Woodpeckers feasting on Thistle seeds. Saw several hummingbirds in this same batch of plants as well.

    I didnít realize it at the time but after watching the video Iím thinking itís an adult and a juvenile. The adult was feeding the Juvi seeds.
    Nice catch, DJ.

    On my ride yesterday, I stopped outside of a nature center that is part of the park. I was standing next to a big lantana watching a butterfly and a female hummingbird came in, hovering four feet from my face. Unfortunately, by the time I got my phone out she was gone.
    There are two types of people in this world:
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Nice catch, DJ.

    On my ride yesterday, I stopped outside of a nature center that is part of the park. I was standing next to a big lantana watching a butterfly and a female hummingbird came in, hovering four feet from my face. Unfortunately, by the time I got my phone out she was gone.
    Nice! This thistle batch is lining the driveway of the lady Iím dating. These photos and video were taken a couple of weeks ago. Yesterday we were sitting out enjoying the beautiful day when all of a sudden a hummingbird zipped between us only a foot from our faces. She was busy texting on her cell phone she didnít even notice it. I alerted her to the hummer who zipped over to the Thistle to feed. I swear that little guy dive bombed us on purpose.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    I donít disagree with your statements above regarding a mature adult Raven. I and others here are saying itís a juvenile. Hereís a link to the photo I posted earlier of the juvenile Raven.https://www.hbw.com/ibc/photo/common...ging-attention


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    Even from that link Iím still not seeing a juvenile ravens legs being different than an adult. The photo in question shows completely different legs than any raven, adult or juvenile than Iíve been able to find on the Net. Which tells me itís not a Raven. I posted a photo of a juvenile Raven above with the bird photo in question for comparison. Pretty easy to see the big difference in the legs.
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 2 Weeks Ago at 03:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Even from that link Iím still not seeing a juvenile ravens legs being different than an adult. The photo in question shows completely different legs than any raven, adult or juvenile than Iíve been able to find on the Net. Which tells me itís not a Raven. I posted a photo of a juvenile Raven above with the bird photo in question for comparison. Pretty east to see the big difference in the legs.
    https://www.audubon.org/news/birdist...-out-juveniles

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    Not sure what Iím supposed to take away from that link.

    The Bird Thread...-58e4ac15-1a1d-43bd-9561-03e6dbcda200.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    Nuvenile birds can look quite a bit different from adults. Some more than others.
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Not sure what Iím supposed to take away from that link.

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    Other useful take aways might be that: Harold knows his stuff, Harold might be better at internet research than the rest of us, Harold is a little stubborn and will come at you with a seemingly endless arsenal of facts to make his point, and that young birds may be difficult to ID.


    I've had a bunch of juvenile cardinals this year. They actually look sickly or damaged the way their plumage comes in. They're also quite skittish and I haven't gotten a decent photo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Other useful take aways might be that: Harold knows his stuff, Harold might be better at internet research than the rest of us, Harold is a little stubborn and will come at you with a seemingly endless arsenal of facts to make his point, and that young birds may be difficult to ID.


    I've had a bunch of juvenile cardinals this year. They actually look sickly or damaged the way their plumage comes in. They're also quite skittish and I haven't gotten a decent photo.
    I agree heís a wealth of knowledge. The one reason Iíve been begging him and others to come up with proof of the difference between a juvenile and an adult Ravens legs. So far all anyone has come back with is hearsay.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I agree heís a wealth of knowledge. The one reason Iíve been begging him and others to come up with proof of the difference between a juvenile and an adult Ravens legs. So far all anyone has come back with is hearsay.
    Except it's more than just hearsay.

    If you read the article, there is a pretty clear statement that there are no comprehensive guides to juvenile birds. They also vary a good bit as they age, so they can look different from week to week.

    Citizen science sites like Bug Guide allow you to illustrate a series of photos of insects at different ages. Many insects change even more than birds as they age, so this is pretty valuable. And it is possible because many insects don't move too far. Juvenile birds are frequently MORE difficult to observe than adults because they are so skittish. They also sound different because they are still learning their adult calls/songs. There has been a hawk flying around work for the past couple of weeks screeching almost constantly. It doesn't sound like anything I know, but its flight was red-tail-ish. Markings weren't quite right, though. I have continued to watch it and listen and I finally got a really good look today and saw that it is a juvie redtail. Of course not long enough for a photo, but it illustrates my point well enough here. And the article makes several supporting points regarding BCTJ's bird. There is enough information for me to agree with juvie raven as an ID. There is simply not enough for me to say it isn't, because I am intimately aware how much juveniles can vary. And midsummer absolutely is the time of year to start seeing juveniles. It is the simplest explanation, and the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct.

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    The Bird Thread...-68a2756b-09cf-480d-99f0-e4914121fb42.jpeg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    You're all a bunch of raven maniacs if you ask me.
    There are two types of people in this world:
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    Someone's going to be eating crow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Give it up DJ. I do respect your opinion but Itís a juvi Raven. Theyíre not all black after hatching. With regards to the silhouette and features there is just not many black bird specie options to identify here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    Give it up DJ. I do respect your opinion but Itís a juvi Raven. Theyíre not all black after hatching. With regards to the silhouette and features there is just not many black bird specie options to identify here.


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    Any proof of that? I havenít seen any yet. I ask and want to be proven wrong, yet I get nothing.
    The Bird Thread...-3d36d19f-2501-4244-803a-af0d8e91ba91.jpg
    If you havenít noticed I love [wildlife] birds, I have since I was knee high to a Grasshopper. Iím no bird expert but I know a thing or two. Iíve seen many ravens and crows. None of which had any green tint to their feathers. The legs on the photo in question are completely different than any juvenile raven photo thatís been pulled up. Different than the adults yet none of you see that. Prove me wrong please, link me up to a juvenile Raven with legs different than an adult Raven. Show me any Raven with a green tint to their feathers. And lastly show me a Raven adult or juvenile with a slender body rather than a bulky one. Please link me up and so I can shut up.
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 1 Week Ago at 03:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Please link me up and so I can shut up.
    Or you can just shut up. I gave you the opinion of an ornithologist with a special interest in crows and ravens. A personal friend that I worked with in grad school. I am pretty good with birds, but she is far better. I can get more ornithologists' opinions if you want. I know several. People who are trained professionals, not just enthusiasts.

    What more do you want? What else do you think it is? We can go by process of elimination, here, if you want. If you can't provide a better ID, saying "that isn't what it is!" Isn't going to cut it.

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    It's a fisher cat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    None of which had any green tint to their feathers.
    The color is off in just about ever pic BCTJ posts, and it's probably just the lighting on the legs that's throwing you off.

    The Bird Thread...-raven.jpg
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    That thar is a bloody juvenile Raven you bloody moron.


    All I asked for was proof. All my bird cohorts came up empty. Calling it by name without proof is a scientific disaster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    That thar is a bloody juvenile Raven you bloody moron.


    All I asked for was proof. All my bird cohorts came up empty. Calling it by name without proof is a scientific disaster.
    We aren't publishing anything. Very frequently, obtaining an ID is process of elimination, anyway. I have made ID's from camera trap photos with far less detail than this photo has, but process of elimination nailed it. It just wasn't reasonably possible to be anything else.

    What you want for proof largely isn't possible in science, anyway. In this case, BCTJ would have to catch it and get DNA. That's not going to happen. What we have are a couple of photos. The bird cannot reasonably be anything but a crow or a raven. Feathered bill, bill shape, black-ish, size, basic body plan. It is a corvid, and looking at ranges, we come down to 2 possible species as being most likely. An expert believes juvenile common raven. That is enough for me.

    Why isn't it enough for you?

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    The Great Raven Debate of 2018 is currently on hold until further notice. Once DNA and or vocalization of said bird is obtained we can only assume itís some prehistoric left over from some far away Island in the South Pacific. Possibly blown in or hitchhiked in on a pirates ship.
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    Yeah, not worth ruining relationships over a bird.

    I re-touched my American Avocet photo.

    The Bird Thread...-dscn5052-2-.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    We aren't publishing anything. Very frequently, obtaining an ID is process of elimination, anyway. I have made ID's from camera trap photos with far less detail than this photo has, but process of elimination nailed it. It just wasn't reasonably possible to be anything else.

    What you want for proof largely isn't possible in science, anyway. In this case, BCTJ would have to catch it and get DNA. That's not going to happen. What we have are a couple of photos. The bird cannot reasonably be anything but a crow or a raven. Feathered bill, bill shape, black-ish, size, basic body plan. It is a corvid, and looking at ranges, we come down to 2 possible species as being most likely. An expert believes juvenile common raven. That is enough for me.

    Why isn't it enough for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    The Great Raven Debate of 2018 is currently on hold until further notice. Once DNA and or vocalization of said bird is obtained we can only assume itís some prehistoric left over from some far away Island in the South Pacific. Possibly blown in or hitchhiked in on a pirates ship.
    As Harold states (and his expert consult) its a Corvidae and that's identified by the nasal bristle feathers. So it's either a crow or a raven. The beak is too thick at it's base to be a crow, so Raven it is for me. There just are not many options to choose from here. I read in David Allen Sibley's book that Corvids often have lighter coloration around the mouth/ beak and feathers around the head when juvenile. Raven's and crows are also altricial in development, so they are born blind with little or no down or feathers and pale to pinkish in color. I'm sure like most creatures their development depends on many variables in environment and diet. Some probably turn black quicker than others. If you do a search for baby/ juvi Raven's you will see quite a few with paler pinkish coloration around the base of the beak and on the legs.

    Here's a crow a few days old but it demonstrates the lack of all black coloration.
    The Bird Thread...-baby-crow-2.jpeg
    More baby and juvi ravens
    The Bird Thread...-baby-raven-2.jpg
    The Bird Thread...-baby-raven-3.jpg
    The Bird Thread...-baby-raven-4.jpg
    Yes i'm a Raven lunatic but I'm not eating crow!
    Last edited by manitou2200; 1 Week Ago at 01:58 PM. Reason: added baby ravens

  77. #4477
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    The Great Raven Debate of 2018 is currently on hold until further notice.
    So basically, "nevermore."
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  78. #4478
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    So really, if I concede to it being a juvenile Raven, then and only then wil I be be given clearance to re-join the TOCBS [The OC Bird Society]? But only if I concede?
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    As Harold states (and his expert consult) its a Corvidae and that's identified by the nasal bristle feathers. So it's either a crow or a raven. The beak is too thick at it's base to be a crow, so Raven it is for me. There just are not many options to choose from here. I read in David Allen Sibley's book that Corvids often have lighter coloration around the mouth/ beak and feathers around the head when juvenile. Raven's and crows are also altricial in development, so they are born blind with little or no down or feathers and pale to pinkish in color. I'm sure like most creatures their development depends on many variables in environment and diet. Some probably turn black quicker than others. If you do a search for baby/ juvi Raven's you will see quite a few with paler pinkish coloration around the base of the beak and on the legs.

    Here's a crow a few days old but it demonstrates the lack of all black coloration.

    Yes i'm a Raven lunatic but I'm not eating crow!
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    The Bird Thread...-efb01b7f-0ee4-47d8-9877-c9be20b481f6.jpeg
    The Bird Thread...-644531f7-8bef-4803-8aa3-a4de6ed6529c.jpeg
    The Bird Thread...-498b8708-3b9f-41ec-8d14-79f4ef5e371a.jpeg
    Hmmmmm...scratching my head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    Yeah, not worth ruining relationships over a bird.

    I re-touched my American Avocet photo.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That is a very nice photo. I love the wading birds. It's probably as a result of all the time I spent in marshes in my early years.

  82. #4482
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    So really, if I concede to it being a juvenile Raven, then and only then wil I be be given clearance to re-join the TOCBS [The OC Bird Society]? But only if I concede?
    You don 't have to concede, to be part of TOCBS. It's not about who's right or wrong. I know I was coming at this from a point of conviction as was Harold. It's not always black and white. In this case it's a little green, red/ pink and grey. Birds are interesting creatures for sure. That eagle, goat video is a good example of how birds can reason. If I drag this goat off of the cliff it won't run away once it gets to the bottom. Sibley's book reminded me of the intelligence of Raven's. There's a story of a test where Ravens retrieved a chunk of meat dangling on a long string from a perch. The first Raven went out onto the perch and looked at the meat on the string and pulled it up with it's beak, stood on the string with its foot and repeated that until it had the meat. Every one after that did the same thing without any trials. The group of crows failed the test.

  83. #4483
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    Sometimes we rush to a conclusion before fully analyzing whatís in front of us. Iíve always been fascinated with all creatures, bird being high on that list. I just like to be absolutely positive before labeling any species sighting. I never took anything that was said within this conversation as negative towards me personally. Just a debate over a bird species is all. Manatou, you post an interesting insight into a Ravens intelligence. I remember as a kid I had a neighbor that had a pet Crow. Hard to believe how intelligent they really are until youíve spent time with one.

    And just to get things back on track.

    And another very intelligent bird is the Black Billed Magpie. This is a re-post of a very curious one from a couple of months ago. They are very common in my area and are usually very skittish. Hard to get them to stick around for a photo shoot. Not this one, he landed on my drivers side mirror just 2í from my face. Quite colorful bird in flight with their long tails and black and white feathers with a green tint to the black.

    Photos taken at 9,000 ft. Colorado.

    The Bird Thread...-67c1d2c8-61d0-4096-9dc1-b45726943054.jpg

    The Bird Thread...-f3ca5a01-dca1-4231-a975-1ca68e17cb0e.jpg
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 1 Week Ago at 04:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by manitou2200 View Post
    That is a very nice photo. I love the wading birds. It's probably as a result of all the time I spent in marshes in my early years.
    Thanks. I passed this beauty last night.

    The Bird Thread...-img_0687.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The Bird Thread...-img_0683.jpg  

    The Bird Thread...-img_0664.jpg  


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    Yes BCTJ, you have become an accomplished birder.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Yes BCTJ, you have become an accomplished birder.
    Thanks! I should have gone to photography school instead of wasting my money and time in law school! By the way, it is a Great Blue Heron, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    Thanks! By the way, it is a Great Blue Heron, right?

    One of the best!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    Thanks! I should have gone to photography school instead of wasting my money and time in law school!
    I know a couple lawyers. One doesn't practice law at all - but he is a corporate executive with Anthem. The other practices immigration law, of all things. I don't know how he stays sane. Basically he shepherds immigration and asylum applications. But my understanding from those guys is that the vast majority of people who graduate from law school do not actually practice law. Rather, they might do something vaguely related to the types of law that interested them in school. Lots of lawyers run nonprofits, it seems. Especially land conservancy (lawyers interested in conservation and real estate, especially).

    I tried to take some photography courses in college. I've always been interested in it. But it would have been simply me as a non-major, taking it for the art credit. The professor who taught it was snotty and pretentious, and the class was near impossible to get into. You couldn't just "register" for the class. You had to talk to the professor, have HIM put your name on a list, and THEN you'd be allowed to register. He REALLY didn't like letting nonmajors take it, and only did it because the university made him (liberal arts college, photography is one of those super accessible arts for practically anyone, and he wasn't interested). I wound up taking photography lessons from a photographer about 13yrs ago. They focused on landscape photography - skylines, sunsets, and general nature scenes. I've sorta figured out what I know regarding wildlife photography based on what I learned in those lessons, and by trial-and-error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    Thanks! I should have gone to photography school instead of wasting my money and time in law school! By the way, it is a Great Blue Heron, right?
    No, if you look at the legs, it's obviously a Marsh Wren.
    There are two types of people in this world:
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    I had a photography class in college, I think it was required (college of architecture). I enjoyed it, it was pretty basic but we learned how to develop black and white prints. Also took skin lab; I don't think they let students from the other colleges in that class, though most didn't even know it existed.
    There are two types of people in this world:
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    BCTJ, itís never too late for classes. I think Chaz May be onto something with the ďMarsh WrenĒ ID. A rare sighting in Utah, lucky you.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  92. #4492
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    Weíve had a lot of hail storms this year in Colorado. The worst was last week where baseball sized hail demolished 300 cars at a zoo in Colorado Springs. Several people were injured and also a couple animal fatalities. One of the tragic deaths was a very rare African vulture.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.bc031dcff355

    The Bird Thread...-6f77baf8-447a-4a91-bf0f-1fff5264548b.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    3 in 1 shot - Heron, Ducks and American Avocet.

    The Bird Thread...-img_0679.jpg

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    Nice shot^
    It got me thinking of a sighting I had about a year ago. Three hen Mallard Ducks and a Ruby Throated Hummingbird in the same shot. Has this ever happened and caught on camera in the history of man?

    The Bird Thread...-69754644-a309-4958-9eda-1d3833cb7127.jpeg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Nice shot^
    It got me thinking of a sighting I had about a year ago. Three hen Mallard Ducks and a Ruby Throated Hummingbird in the same shot. Has this ever happened and caught on camera in the history of man?
    Where's the hummer? Pic is fuzzy enough that I think I see it, but I'm not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Where's the hummer? Pic is fuzzy enough that I think I see it, but I'm not sure.
    Sorry, the duck on the far right. The hummer is interested in the colored markings on the right wing of the duck. I was only 10í away on a bridge looking down at the ducks. A hummer all of a sudden showed up and I pulled my phone out just in time to catch a couple shots before the hummer zipped away.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Ok, that is what I thought I saw. Interestingly enough, it is harder to see on my pc than on my phone. Usually it is the other way around.
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Sorry, the duck on the far right. The hummer is interested in the colored markings on the right wing of the duck. I was only 10í away on a bridge looking down at the ducks. A hummer all of a sudden showed up and I pulled my phone out just in time to catch a couple shots before the hummer zipped away.
    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

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    [QUOTE=DIRTJUNKIE;13773102] BCTJ, itís never too late for classes. [QUOTE]

    Take more classes so that I can be bilked again by the ongoing American higher education scam? Lots of gullible people are suffering - having forked over thousands of dollars for what are essentially worthless degrees. I don't know if even college is worth it anymore, with a price tag of $100,000 plus. No - I'll just take the MTBR photography class - ha!
    Last edited by BCTJ; 1 Week Ago at 04:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCTJ View Post
    Take more classes so that I can be bilked again by the ongoing American higher education scam? Lots of gullible people are suffering - having forked over thousands of dollars for what are essentially worthless degrees. I don't know if even college is worth it anymore, with a price tag of $100,000 plus. No - I'll just take the MTBR photography class - ha!
    Don't have to take them from a university. Call them "personal edification" classes or whatever. Take private lessons (like I did). Take a course from an art center. Take an online course. Read books about photography. Whatever suits your preferences. There are ways to learn more formally than "trial-and-error" that don't involve degrees.

    Hell, I'm about to sign up for adult ed guitar lessons at the local community college. $65 for the whole class. Helluva deal compared to when I took private lessons.

    Learning something from someone else is never bad, IMO. Honestly, the most valuable lessons I learned in college were not things that I learned as degree requirements. But I'd have been hard pressed to learn them elsewhere. So I don't view my education as a waste, in spite of the fact that my degrees have done little for me.

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    BCTJ, I meant just taking a few photography courses just for hobby sake. Although from the work youíve displayed in here it may just be a waste of money. Most excellent photography Sir!
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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