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  1. #1
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    Audio set up question

    An acoustics related question - throw out all convenient experience and previous usage.

    Altering an original signal introduces compressed sound and a device's own ability to overcome noise of amplification. Signal to Noise ratio is what this is called, measured in Decibels. A daisy-chain of processors will only be as strong as the lowest SN Ratio. Stereo Separation is also a measured output.

    Stereo Sound is hardly a new concept, in theory there being no mono signal in L & R signal paths, an infinite stereo image and stereo separation dynamic would exist. Any center image would be bound to on-axis speaker response and the volume of all combined ambient sound.

    Yearning to improve natural soundstage, finding two amplifiers bench tested to the same output (in theory possible) and applying the total output with one to the Left speaker(s) and the other to the Right would create widest soundstage images possible. There would be no limitation from an amplifier processing full range Stereo and Mono information.

    Who has working knowledge?
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  2. #2
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    You just want what exactly? Wider sound stage? Deeper sound stage? This is domestic Hi-Fi you are talking about here?

  3. #3
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    Anything limited by a fixed space is what defines the depth or width of a listening environment. Stereo Speaker location as it's governing-factor, why not control any natural spacial effect w/ just two speakers?
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  4. #4
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    What you are saying is hard to comprehend, or is technically incorrect and you haven't answered any of my questions! What is it you actually want here? One more gobbledy**** post and I'm out.

  5. #5
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    Wow! That offensive language filter sure is set to 'kill' isn't it! ;0)

  6. #6
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    Gobbledygook

    You have to enable the secret swearing function first.
    Then you can say all the fun words without being censored.

  7. #7
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    Haint has been smoking that funny stuff today.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Gobbledygook

    You have to enable the secret swearing function first.
    Then you can say all the fun words without being censored.
    But it's not a swear word or even offensive in any way. It's a real word:

    "language that is meaningless or is made unintelligible by excessive use of technical terms."

    Blocking it like that is worse as it makes something innocent look guilty!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Haint has been smoking that funny stuff today.
    Yes Sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig
    What you are saying is hard to comprehend, or is technically incorrect and you haven't answered any of my questions! What is it you actually want here? One more gobbledy**** post and I'm out.
    It is not easy to assemble into the attention-span of the OC. Basically I am trying to piss-up a Rope. Can I do it?
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  10. #10
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    Yeah you are limited to the dynamic range of the mics used in the recording (and the room and other sounds bleeding over).. or how much range the sound engineer has allowed.

  11. #11
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    If the audio engineer wants everything loud (like chili peppers album) it might not sound as natural/realistic as you want

  12. #12
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    Get a bunch of friends with ghetto-blasters, give them all the same CD (I suggest Umphrey's McGee's latest), start them all at the same time, and have people move about as it's playing. Should create a wide soundstage at some point. Dunno if a bench-test will expose the db ramifications of the subtle electron diffusions. Worth a shot, I think. Let us know how it goes.

  13. #13
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    Speakers by the multiples are neat, but two properly amplified speaker components are all that's needed:

    Lemme try this for what it is - Air. Taking the effective displacement of Air by a speaker-driver's one way motor excursion, factoring in this being a stereo signal creates two volumes of Air with common air-pressures (non-stereo mono information). The amplifier has to do alot of work in order to segment the frequencies playing in both L & R speakers and then also create the L & R image, hence the Decibel Equivalent of the loss in total out put from Mono to Stereo.

    "Can't we all just get along?" I once heard over the stereo.
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  14. #14
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    I really should learn to check back with possible forum responses before clicking 'submit'...
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    If the audio engineer wants everything loud (like chili peppers album) it might not sound as natural/realistic as you want
    That is engineering of Sound, important but not the same as the processing of source material into full range sound.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    I really should learn to check back with possible forum responses before clicking 'submit'...

    Especially if you are a slow speeler, Like I am.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbucket View Post
    Especially if you are a slow speeler, Like I am.
    It takes 18mins for you to assemble sentences like that one?





    Damn, good job!
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  18. #18
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    Haint, how did you earn so many little green boxes, shag a moderator?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Haint, how did you earn so many little green boxes, shag a moderator?
    Nope - cuddled all night.

    Gentle sobbing was not withheld, I was told to let it all out.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    That is engineering of Sound, important but not the same as the processing of source material into full range sound.
    Is this source material broadcast live, what is it? I think there could be conditioners involved (processing) if you have the left and right side speakers going for the audience (could be part of ambient sound or feedback)

  21. #21
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    are you trying to get surround sound with only a stereo speaker set up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by deke505 View Post
    are you trying to get surround sound with only a stereo speaker set up?
    A 3db decrease in output is mostly a 100% drop in wattage-in-use. A 6db decrease is a perceived to the ear halving of Volume.
    Having 100db in signal to noise and 85db of stereo separation for example is alot of work for a couple of speakers to overcome.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    A 3db decrease in output is mostly a 100% drop in wattage-in-use. A 6db decrease is a perceived to the ear halving of Volume.
    Having 100db in signal to noise and 85db of stereo separation for example is alot of work for a couple of speakers to overcome.
    So, is that yes, or no?
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    A 3db decrease in output is mostly a 100% drop in wattage-in-use. A 6db decrease is a perceived to the ear halving of Volume.
    Having 100db in signal to noise and 85db of stereo separation for example is alot of work for a couple of speakers to overcome.
    you must make a centre line down away from the vocal point. Have the right and left speakers at exact distance from you and from each other (i.e if the left one is 10' from the vocal point so must the right one, both pointed towards the vocal point, the sweet spot. Than the Left must be 5' from the centre line as the right one is 5' from the centre line making a equilateral triangle.)

    To get some loudness one must create a sound funnel (like putting your mp3 player in a coffee cup) making the sound directional towards the sweet spot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by net wurker View Post
    So, is that yes, or no?
    Surround Sound is manipulating time alignment of particular frequencies - it can sound decent but in no way is natural sound. And I would not want to listen to this exclusively so - No.


    Here's the working model of total output and spacial fullness.

    dbkeele.com
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by deke505 View Post
    you must make a centre line down away from the vocal point. Have the right and left speakers at exact distance from you and from each other (i.e if the left one is 10' from the vocal point so must the right one, both pointed towards the vocal point, the sweet spot. Than the Left must be 5' from the centre line as the right one is 5' from the centre line making a equilateral triangle.)

    To get some loudness one must create a sound funnel (like putting your mp3 player in a coffee cup) making the sound directional towards the sweet spot.
    Yep - that's all being taken into consideration. I am concerned with particular amplifier dynamic limitations.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    Yep - that's all being taken into consideration. I am concerned with particular amplifier dynamic limitations.
    Not much will change that, it all depends on the quality of the speaker assembly. Whether it is assembled to get peak reverb out of it, and the quality of the box for optimum sound distribution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by deke505 View Post
    Not much will change that, it all depends on the quality of the speaker assembly. Whether it is assembled to get peak reverb out of it, and the quality of the box for optimum sound distribution.
    How about the power driving these speakers? You can only introduce so much EQ before original signal is compromised. it's always better to cut frequencies than boost, so why not alleviate shoddy Separation dynamics and also increase axial efficiency??
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  29. #29
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    I used to crank DSOTM out of two 10" or 12" Infinity house speakers hooked up to a studio amplifier to drown out the neighbors dogs, talk about surround sound!!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    How about the power driving these speakers? You can only introduce so much EQ before original signal is compromised. it's always better to cut frequencies than boost, so why not alleviate shoddy Separation dynamics and also increase axial efficiency??
    actually cutting the freq is not good either, it will only dilute the sound. It would be more beneficial to add channels and have each sound have its own channel as to get clear sound.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by deke505 View Post
    actually cutting the freq is not good either, it will only dilute the sound. It would be more beneficial to add channels and have each sound have its own channel as to get clear sound.
    In equalizing applications, it is always better to cut offending frequencies rather than boost frequencies to motivate response. The latter portion of your post resembles my intent, just isolating associated L and R signal paths to individual amplifiers of the same design.
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  32. #32
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    Ditch the loud speakers for wireless headphones

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Ditch the loud speakers for wireless headphones
    Am considering this for the car actually. I have a habit of getting out of the car in the automated car wash, and some music would really set the mood.
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  34. #34
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    When you guys are all done here could you help me out with my clock radio? It sounds terrible when I'm trying to wake up in the morning.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    When you guys are all done here could you help me out with my clock radio? It sounds terrible when I'm trying to wake up in the morning.
    hit the snooze button.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by deke505 View Post
    hit the snooze button.
    I'm going to have to consider doing this. That alarm is going to kill me tomorrow morning.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    I'm going to have to consider doing this. That alarm is going to kill me tomorrow morning.
    Well it could be worse I have set mine two hours before I get up, it takes that long for me to wake up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by deke505 View Post
    Well it could be worse I have set mine two hours before I get up, it takes that long for me to wake up.
    I here ya Deke. If I could figure out how to configure my morning for optimum results I would be a happy camper.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    I here ya Deke. If I could figure out how to configure my morning for optimum results I would be a happy camper.
    1st step to strong waking-routine is avoid repetitive patterned behavior, like displacing other words with ones which sound the same. IE hear and here. This will alleviate dis-associative unconscious behaviors. These finally manifest in the conscious, through actions such as the inability to understand an alarm clock's intended function.
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  40. #40
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    Enough alarm clock, vocabulary, and AM routine diatribes.
    Smash it with a hammer, swear like a pirate, and go drop the big kid off at the pool.

    Back on topic, audio. Specifically, car audio, and adding a powered subwoofer to a factory system. Not looking to have it thumping like a hooptey-mobile, or have it shatter glass. Just want to slip something under the passenger's seat to deliver the low notes. Replaced the factory speakers with some quality components, now wanting to add a little punch.

    What say the spelling challenged, alarm clock hating, constipated OC tribemates?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin_W View Post
    Enough alarm clock, vocabulary, and AM routine diatribes.
    Smash it with a hammer, swear like a pirate, and go drop the big kid off at the pool.

    Back on topic, audio. Specifically, car audio, and adding a powered subwoofer to a factory system. Not looking to have it thumping like a hooptey-mobile, or have it shatter glass. Just want to slip something under the passenger's seat to deliver the low notes. Replaced the factory speakers with some quality components, now wanting to add a little punch.

    What say the spelling challenged, alarm clock hating, constipated OC tribemates?
    Provided the car doors in particular can accommodate enclosures (or partial- w/ fiberglass) a well match set of component speakers provide great natural bass response. Having had experience along the wide array of Mobile Electronics, the same theme applies as to home stereo; efficiency and clean power.
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  42. #42
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    Quite a bit of what your question is based on involves the audio engineering done on the source material being listened to. If the original source recording has mono sounds within it no amount of electronic separation will increase the audible sound stage. If both the left and right tracks were recorded completely separate from one another with no overlapping signals then your idea might work but music is not delivered in formats that completely isolate each track from the other. For example a drummer using a single kick drum can only be captured as a mono signal even if multiple mics are used. Reproduction of the sound will always have mono overlap unless the timing of one signal is displaced from the other. That would sound like an echo. Many amplifiers are actually 2 separate amplifiers in a single chassis so having 2 bench tested amplifiers may not be necessary to achieve what you are looking for. All in all our current methods of sound recording and reproduction are flawed. We converge sound to single point or mic to simulate the ear but then rebroadcast it back to our actual ear from a point that is not our ear thus corrupting the source material with distortions created by reflections of that sound before it stimulated the ear drum. Even using a high quality stereo mic only solves half of the issue. reproduction of the sound must be made within the ear itself to remove the possibility of contamination or distortions associated with acoustic reflection. Using current audio equipment only mimics the source sound. We are yet to be able to accurately reproduce the heard sound as it was originally produced. Just to many variables. This is why live music always sounds better than recorded.

  43. #43
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    Haint, have you ever been in an anechoic chamber? Interesting physics for sure, neat to set different tones and walk on the wire mesh listening for where the different parts of the waves are and how they're focused.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Haint, have you ever been in an anechoic chamber? Interesting physics for sure, neat to set different tones and walk on the wire mesh listening for where the different parts of the waves are and how they're focused.
    I made the thread... it's anechoic. Don't know how the question-matter got no response, but I do like how it's earned garbage-status thanks to another thread in the OC here.

    An amplifier works much like the Soundpost in an Upright Bass, not only does it enhance the response from the belly, it also maintains Phase between the instrument Back and the Top. Moving the soundpost can and does alter tone, sometimes more-poorly.

    Much like how some amps cannot resolve stereo image to the highest dynamic - each may be a loud amp, but natural imaging sucks it. Has zero or less to do with master recordings and studio mix.
    Just like altering the soundpost of a Violin instrument -- overlapped frequencies create resistance, and sap power. I'll leave my own ears to be the judge and jury.
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  45. #45
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    Wow. It has everything to do with the original recording. If you wanted to answer your own question why even post this. Amplifiers do not work like the sound post ....equalizers do. Maybe the thread is not garbage but shutting down people trying to answer your questions or discuss it is.
    Enjoy!!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    Wow. It has everything to do with the original recording. If you wanted to answer your own question why even post this. Amplifiers do not work like the sound post ....equalizers do. Maybe the thread is not garbage but shutting down people trying to answer your questions or discuss it is.
    Enjoy!!
    Equalizing is not an essential item, I have heard plenty of non-eq'D systems which sound accurate. Therefore your argument is invalid, again.
    Stereo Separation is in fact a quantifiable output of any Power Amplifier made for Stereo Sound. Be there 109db in a Master Tape, the amp at 74db will restrict imaging.
    Maybe the thread is not garbage, but shutting down people trying to answer your questions or discuss it is. Twice these theories were disproven, repeating non-facts is a basis for debate.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    I made the thread... it's anechoic. Don't know how the question-matter got no response, but I do like how it's earned garbage-status thanks to another thread in the OC here.

    An amplifier works much like the Soundpost in an Upright Bass, not only does it enhance the response from the belly, it also maintains Phase between the instrument Back and the Top. Moving the soundpost can and does alter tone, sometimes more-poorly.

    Much like how some amps cannot resolve stereo image to the highest dynamic - each may be a loud amp, but natural imaging sucks it. Has zero or less to do with master recordings and studio mix.
    Just like altering the soundpost of a Violin instrument -- overlapped frequencies create resistance, and sap power. I'll leave my own ears to be the judge and jury.
    Moving the sound post from the bridge.. so you're talking about brightness/darkness and or strengthening/weakening one side of the strings to match with the instruments physical construction.. this is theory (to a point) and you should "leave your own ears to be the judge and jury"

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Moving the sound post from the bridge.. so you're talking about brightness/darkness and or strengthening/weakening one side of the strings to match with the instruments physical construction.. this is theory (to a point) and you should "leave your own ears to be the judge and jury"
    Aside from benefits in treble or bass preference, a soundpost maintains in-phase vibration from the back to the top. Otherwise, the sounds have cancellation. Select Jazz guitars use them, some fiddles will not. It's all balance, so yeah - I'm out.
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