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  1. #1
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    A whole foods plant based diet.

    I know a lot of questions on this forum deal with supplements, fat, carbos, protein, fish oil and the like.
    I have gone from vegetarian (with a bunch of cheese, ice cream, eggs and other dairy thrown in for good measure!) to almost a 100% whole foods plant based diet. I feel better now and perform much better on my bike. I feel my cardiovascular system has opened up and I have leaned down as well. My wife is an insulin dependent diabetic and the diet is working really well for her too.
    I think that our knowledge of nutrition is very poor and that the food, medical and drug industries have done nothing to help promote healthy nutrition education. When was the last time your Dr. sat down with you and talked about nutrition? I can't remember one time myself.
    I think that anyone who has an interest in the science about nutrition should read The China Study and also look at Dr. McDougall's web site. From my research and reading I am convinced that a whole foods plant based diet is the best way to prevent diabetes, heart disease, cancer and other diseases, plus help keep you lean.
    Dr. McDougall's site: Free McDougall Program: Your health is not determined by heredity
    The China Study can be found on Amazon or many other book sites.

  2. #2
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    You are what you eat...really? Yes really!

    My own personal self-deprecating joke has always been, “I’m fallen apart like a late model Yugo!” But the truth is…I have gotten fat, old, and started to experience some major health problems, such as Type 2 Diabetes, Sleep Apnea, muscle soreness, and joint pain. Someone once said, “Growing Old is not for Sissies”, meaning real men live with their pain.

    I guess I accepted that “fact” that as you get older, you start using Rx drugs to correct health problems. Guess what …You don’t have to go down that road! What if someone told you that you could stop taking, or cut down on the amount Rx pills you take, by simply changing your diet… would you do it?

    I did! I changed my diet to a “Plant Base Diet”. I cut all meat, dairy, and oils out of my daily diet. I also stopped taking all RX pills for Type 2 Diabetes. For the last two weeks, my blood sugar readings have been 90 to 130, this is the range of a person without T2 Diabetes!

    So, am I cured of Type 2 Diabetes? No, I don’t think so, I think if I was to start eating meat, dairy, and oils again, my blood sugars would spike. And I would have to use Metformin to control my Blood sugars! But hey..! Don’t believe me, take the time to view this video called “Forks over Knives”, or read their book by the same name.

    Because I have lost 35 pounds over this last year from riding my mountain bike, my Sleep Apnea has gone away. I still have some muscle soreness, and joint pain, but after changing my diet two weeks ago, the pain & soreness is much less. So, it has been a “No Brainer” for me, to stay on my new diet, & continue riding my MT bike three or four times a week.

    Learn the Facts, and forget the lies that the USDA & Large Corporate Agriculture has been selling to America… READ & VIEW –FORKS OVER KNIVES- book & video

    Very Truly Yours, Trex
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    So the USDA is telling lies when the current USDA recommendations are meat should be less than 10% of your total food intake? Similar values are published by the health/nutrition agencies of every country that developed their own recommendations -- Japan, UK, Germany, Mexico, Canada, France, Spain, Greece, Italy, et al. They all say the same thing -- Although a plant only diet can be healthy small amounts of lean meat can contribute to a healthy diet. The Mediterranean Diet has red meat only once per month, with fish as the primary meat source.

    Plant based diets can be unhealthy also. They require a bit more care in menu planning to get all the required nutrients, but that is not an insurmountable problem. Adding a small amount of a meat source (remember, less than 10% is the USDA recommendation) you can obtain all the required micro- and macro-nutrients without any of the risks of higher meat consumption; and have a diet that is more tolerant of irregularities and uneven eating patterns.

    A recent study published the National Institute of Health concludes a ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet is actually healthier than a pure vegan diet, primarily because of the difficulty in obtaining sufficient key nutrients from a vegan diet alone.

    Instead of regurgitating the junk science the internet spouts you should take a college level course in nutrition. Many community colleges offer them on-line or correspondence.

    Many people refer to the invention of the internet as the 'Information Age'. A more accurate term would be the 'Misinformation Age'.

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    Dave, have you viewed Forks over Knives? If you have not, maybe you should before calling it misinformation. The plant base diet is working for me, so I'll hang in there, and keep taking my blood sugars daily...
    Yeah, well, you know...that's just like your opinion man! -The Dude- 1998
    Trex

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    I think that if people watch Forks, read the China Study and look at what McDougall is doing that they will feel differently about meat and dairy in any quantities. The only supplement a whole foods plant based diet requires is a B-12 pill. E-cornell offes a course in plant based nutrition based partly on the China Study.
    Hey it is not for everyone. You basically got to make the call whether you are ready for it or not. But anyone who has questions about nutrition in general and disease prevention via nutrition owes themselves a look at the information that we have pointed to. I still read a lot about nutrition and am going to take the e-cornell course. Trust me if I could find information that I could trust that told me I could eat a totally opposite diet than what I have I would do it!

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    Richwolf, we are on the same page...I too have been doing a lot of reading over the last two weeks. Like you said, it's not for everone, but it sure seems to be working for me.

    So I plan to give this new diet some time to work. I'm down to my college football wt. at 220 lbs. Just a year ago I was over 255 lbs, so I'm happy with the wt loss, and getting stronger everyday on my Yeti 575. Bike+Diet=Game changer!
    Yeah, well, you know...that's just like your opinion man! -The Dude- 1998
    Trex

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    Did you know that the average male requires 22.5 grams of protein daily based on a 2,000 calorie a day diet, which means 4.5 percent of calories should come from protein. You say I can’t get enough protein from a plant-based diet. For example, Spinach is 51% protein, mushrooms in 35%, oatmeal is 16%, whole wheat pasta is 15%, and corn is 12%...most whole natural plant-based foods have a % of protein in them.
    Most Americans consume 20% protein daily, which is way too much. Why is it harmful to your body? Its harmful because you can store carbohydrates and fats, but not protein. So if the protein content of your diet exceeds the amount you need, not only will your liver and kidneys become overburdened, but you will start leaching calcium from your bones to neutralize the excess animal protein that becomes acidic in the human body.
    On the lighter side of life…how’s your garden growing? Our veg garden is kicking azz.
    P.S. Mr. 54, I worked 30 years within a branch of the USDA (retired), plus I have a college degree, and my blood sugar was 98 this morning before my 3 hour bike ride...didn't intend to sound smug

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    Trex

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    I eat primarily plant based diet, occasionally eat fish, and specifically avoid dairy and meat. At the age of 61 I am in pretty good shape, normal weight, with no heart disease, diabetes, etc. I hope to keep it that way. I think that the large amount of animal/dairy protein and fat is probably the cause of much of the cancer we see, especially prostate and breast, which is so prevalent. I'm training for retirement!

  9. #9
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    +1 Sounds like a plant base diet is working for you Mr. Guam... thanks for your comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by guamjim View Post
    I eat primarily plant based diet, occasionally eat fish, and specifically avoid dairy and meat. At the age of 61 I am in pretty good shape, normal weight, with no heart disease, diabetes, etc. I hope to keep it that way. I think that the large amount of animal/dairy protein and fat is probably the cause of much of the cancer we see, especially prostate and breast, which is so prevalent. I'm training for retirement!
    Yeah, well, you know...that's just like your opinion man! -The Dude- 1998
    Trex

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    The whole bizarre conspiracy theory the USDA is in a giant plot with the livestock industry to 'push' meat is simply not supported by the facts. The USDA DRI for meat is no more than 2-3 ounces per day, preferably 3-4 times per week or less instead of daily. For reference 2 ounces is about the size of a cassette tape, 3 ounces is a deck of cards. This is hardly 'pushing' a meat based diet (the current U.S. average is 0.5 pounds of meat per day!) Every publication out there from the USDA Food and Nutrition Service, or the NIH, or just about every developed nation in the world is preaching reduce meat consumption. You will also find the same publications stating a plant based diet with zero meat consumption can also be healthy and meet all the nutritional requirements. There are numerous published and peer-reviewed studies detailing the link between a high meat diet and cancer, heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, and other diseases et al. That is not in dispute. But it is not necessary to completely eliminate meat and dairy to benefit. You can obtain all the benefits of a plant based diet without any of the risks of a high meat diet by reducing meat and dairy to the low level recommended by the USDA or others (or less).

    As mentioned earlier the U.S average meat consumption is 1/2 pound per day. Eating that much organic carrots is not healthy for you either.

    Where did the 51% protein in spinach come from? According to the USDA food database raw spinach is 2.9% protein. Spinach is 90%+ water, so even adjusting for water content you have only 29% protein of the solid matter. Spinach has a lot of powerhouse nutritional benefits, a protein source is not one of them.

    The rule of thumb for protein needs is about 0.8 grams per kilogram of lean body weight per day. If you are physically active and working out hard you can increase that somewhat potentially up to doubling to 1.5 or so. More than that bad things can start happening even if you are seriously heavy weightlifter.

    B-12 supplements are all animal derived, so strictly speaking it is still not a completely animal free diet.

    BTW I am on the Forks over Knives mailing list for their newsletters, and the China Study book is available as E-book or audiobook for those that prefer those formats. Your local public library probably has it available for loan.

    One of the problems with assessing all the positive results from a plant based diet is vegans (or any of the varieties of vegetarians) tend to eat lower on the food chain, so to speak --less processed foods, more foods closer to natural state. Processed foods, even processed vegetables, tend to have higher salt, sugar, and fat content. So it is very difficult to determine what triggers the benefits of a plant based diet. Is it elimination of meat or the elimination of the processed foods? Meta-studies of all the published research suggest it is a combination of both with each carrying the same weight. i.e. a microwaved frozen heat-and-eat vegan TV dinner is not significantly any healthier than a meat based frozen dinner.

    I also retired after 32 years with the USDA.

  11. #11
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    If meat, dairy, and eggs would lower my blood sugars, I would be all over them...I would be a meat eating MO-FO! But they don't, so I had the choice of continuing to eat meat, and continue popping Metformin to keep my blood sugars down. Or change my diet, and never, (hopefully), take another metformin again. This was a NO-BRAINER…
    I loved eating meat, but it was killing me. I don’t know anyone, who would order a 2oz steak! My last steak was a 12oz New York in Wendover, NV, it was wonderful. I ate red meat once a week, it was like a treat, but the next day my blood sugars were always higher (between 120-140). And it would take another day or two, (taking metformin), for my sugars to come back down.
    The spinach % may be a type-o; I got that information from the Engine 2 Diet book, based on Forks over Knives data. You’re correct about processed vegetables, so it’s nice to have a large garden and a great farmers market on Friday in Shasta Lake & Sat. morning in Redding. Plus I went to the 99c store today and got some great fresh veggies there. Forks over Knives video/book does say to take B-12, and I have no problems with that.
    Okay, I will stop bashing the USDA on this thread, since the Gov. is keeping an eye on all of us on the internet.
    Hopeful Mr. 54 you’re enjoying your retirement and getting some epic bike rides in…piece out, my friend.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    The whole bizarre conspiracy theory the USDA is in a giant plot with the livestock industry to 'push' meat is simply not supported by the facts. The USDA DRI for meat is no more than 2-3 ounces per day, preferably 3-4 times per week or less instead of daily. For reference 2 ounces is about the size of a cassette tape, 3 ounces is a deck of cards. This is hardly 'pushing' a meat based diet (the current U.S. average is 0.5 pounds of meat per day!) Every publication out there from the USDA Food and Nutrition Service, or the NIH, or just about every developed nation in the world is preaching reduce meat consumption. You will also find the same publications stating a plant based diet with zero meat consumption can also be healthy and meet all the nutritional requirements. There are numerous published and peer-reviewed studies detailing the link between a high meat diet and cancer, heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, and other diseases et al. That is not in dispute. But it is not necessary to completely eliminate meat and dairy to benefit. You can obtain all the benefits of a plant based diet without any of the risks of a high meat diet by reducing meat and dairy to the low level recommended by the USDA or others (or less).

    As mentioned earlier the U.S average meat consumption is 1/2 pound per day. Eating that much organic carrots is not healthy for you either.

    Where did the 51% protein in spinach come from? According to the USDA food database raw spinach is 2.9% protein. Spinach is 90%+ water, so even adjusting for water content you have only 29% protein of the solid matter. Spinach has a lot of powerhouse nutritional benefits, a protein source is not one of them.

    The rule of thumb for protein needs is about 0.8 grams per kilogram of lean body weight per day. If you are physically active and working out hard you can increase that somewhat potentially up to doubling to 1.5 or so. More than that bad things can start happening even if you are seriously heavy weightlifter.

    B-12 supplements are all animal derived, so strictly speaking it is still not a completely animal free diet.

    BTW I am on the Forks over Knives mailing list for their newsletters, and the China Study book is available as E-book or audiobook for those that prefer those formats. Your local public library probably has it available for loan.

    One of the problems with assessing all the positive results from a plant based diet is vegans (or any of the varieties of vegetarians) tend to eat lower on the food chain, so to speak --less processed foods, more foods closer to natural state. Processed foods, even processed vegetables, tend to have higher salt, sugar, and fat content. So it is very difficult to determine what triggers the benefits of a plant based diet. Is it elimination of meat or the elimination of the processed foods? Meta-studies of all the published research suggest it is a combination of both with each carrying the same weight. i.e. a microwaved frozen heat-and-eat vegan TV dinner is not significantly any healthier than a meat based frozen dinner.

    I also retired after 32 years with the USDA.
    Thanks for your response. I do feel that meat and dairy in any quantity is bad for your health and due to the multiplier factor meat and dairy will have many more times the concentration of toxins in them that plant foods do.
    I believe the China study book lays out a good case against our western diets level of protein intake particularly that derived from meat and dairy. Ours is probably double what it should be and plenty of better protein can be had from plants with a lower toxic level and the added benefits of fiber and NO cholesterol Cholesterol is only found in meat and dairy which surprises most people.
    You have the average American consuming a half pound of meat per day per person which is like 2 quarter pound burgers each day and thereafter day after day. Then you add dairy and eggs to the mix and you get even more cholesterol. Cheese on your burger, an egg or two or three for breakfast and some ice cream for dessert or a cookie and a glass of milk? Plus you know the USDA guidelines are not even closely followed or known by most. There is a serious lack of understanding about diet and nutrition from the general public to the USDA to the doctors who treat us.
    Just walk down the street and look at what our western diet has done to us. Look at the fare at almost all restaurants. Look at the amount of crap that people put in their shopping carts. look at the offerings at any convenience store, mini market or gas station. It is all junk food, alcohol, high caffeine energy drinks, ciggies and lottery tickets.
    I know that people say that no one is holding a gun to your head to eat or drink these bad foods but if you do, you are effectively holding a gun to your future health.
    I have been on a good diet long enough to know it's positive benefits and as I lean more I hope to refine it even further. I would much rather trust my health to a whole foods plant based diet vs. anything else out there.
    The B-12 argument you make is true but if it does indeed consist of animal products, have you ever seen the size of the pill I take daily?? Hey I even ride on a leather brooks b-17 saddle (is that a vitamin!!??), so I guess that automatically makes me hypocritical?
    I was simply trying to find a diet that I believe will give me long term health and sustainability.

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    I think it might be a little naïve to believe that the large dairy, meat, and various agricultural lobbies do not have some influence on various governmental organizations and their recommendations, including food pyramids and school lunch programs. As a corollary to that, it is practically dogma that one must have milk and meat if one is to get enough calcium and quality protein respectively - concepts that have been advanced by these industries, endorsed by the government, and swallowed whole by the medical community and the public. As a health care professional, I daily see the results of our national eating habits on my patients' health, although anyone can look around and see the same. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but I don't believe the government is any better than the average internet site in advising me on what to eat.

    As a recent example of the advertising power of the above mentioned industries and lobbies, I am currently seeing large ads in sports related magazines and web sites featuring prominent athletes promoting chocolate milk as the "ultimate sports recovery drink". What nonsense. The ad is paid for by the 2013 America's Milk Processors.

    Forks Over Knives, although not without its critics, was a major influence on my efforts to clean up my own diet, lose weight and stay healthy. I appreciate seeing this discussed in this forum.

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    Mr Guam, you get another +1 from me...I concur my friend.
    Yeah, well, you know...that's just like your opinion man! -The Dude- 1998
    Trex

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    Brendan Brazier talks about endurance athletes and nutrition from a whole foods plant based diet. Sign up and you can watch it for free here: Clean Sport Nutrition 101 | Learn It Live

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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf View Post
    I do feel that meat and dairy in any quantity is bad for your health...
    You would be wrong on this point based on humans being able to eat meat for 10's of thousands of years, and not keel over from some of these maladies you cite.

    Cholesterol is only found in meat and dairy which surprises most people.
    Why do you have an aversion to dietary cholesterol, and do you know what is the mechanism in which dietary cholesterol moves from the digestive tract to arterial walls?

    I was simply trying to find a diet that I believe will give me long term health and sustainability.
    I believe your diet works, but not for the reasons you think.

    Also, that B12 supplementation is totally cheating.

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    Another great source of science based information and research on diet and exercise is cbass.com by the 75 year old "Ripped" body builder Clarence Bass

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    You can find supporting "science" for any diet you choose to eat. Atkins, CKD, Paleo, vegetarian, vegan, raw, twinkies and chocolate milk...whatever. There's stuff out there to support whatever you want to be supported. I did raw, I did vegetarian, CKD, I'm trying Paleo right now...I'm doing best at the moment on Paleo. My riding is better than ever, I'm loosing lots of weight, my strength is not suffering...so each their own. I can post up lots of stuff to support Paleo if I wanted. In the end, you need to choose what YOU want to believe and go with it because chances are, none of us are completely right and it doesn't really matter because we're all screwed anyways. The condition of our world and the people in it, worrying too much about what we eat is just a waste of time since despite out best efforts, things are never going to be the way they should be.

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    True that. However, there are plenty of valid scientific studies for the discerning to make up their own mind.

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    Nubster,
    Get back to us on that Paleo diet after a year or two. Losing weight is only part of the equation. Lot's of people lose weight on "diets" but put it right back on til the next "diet" You have to pick a long term strategy that you can stick with. Seems like you have tried plenty. That is the yo yo plan.

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    Yeah, I agree. I'm not trying to find "diets" just to drop some lbs then go back to SAD eating. I'm searching for something that is sustainable for me. CKD definitely wasn't. I lost some weight and I think it's a good diet to loose weight, but extremely difficult to maintain that way of eating. Vegetarian, I fell into the trap of eating a lot of garbage even though it was "vegetarian". Raw, that one was one of the better ones but I felt like I was missing out on something. Paleo, so far so good. It's not a huge departure from how I normally eat. Just cleaned up and void of grains, simple carbs, and processed junk we shouldn't be eating anyways. I'm pretty sure Paleo can be/will be the lifestyle change I've been looking for. It's easy to follow and is working thus far and it's not some crazy, unhealthy way of eating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Yeah, I agree. I'm not trying to find "diets" just to drop some lbs then go back to SAD eating. I'm searching for something that is sustainable for me. CKD definitely wasn't. I lost some weight and I think it's a good diet to loose weight, but extremely difficult to maintain that way of eating. Vegetarian, I fell into the trap of eating a lot of garbage even though it was "vegetarian". Raw, that one was one of the better ones but I felt like I was missing out on something. Paleo, so far so good. It's not a huge departure from how I normally eat. Just cleaned up and void of grains, simple carbs, and processed junk we shouldn't be eating anyways. I'm pretty sure Paleo can be/will be the lifestyle change I've been looking for. It's easy to follow and is working thus far and it's not some crazy, unhealthy way of eating.
    I don't think that there is any good diet that doesn't include A LOT of carbs. Particularly for endurance sports like bicycling. You need to eat good quality complex carbs and not those found in heavily processed packaged food. Before I went whole foods plant based I was a vegetarian but like you didn't eat real well. Lots of eggs, dairy ice cream etc. I just don't think the Paleo is a long term sustainable diet particularly for endurance athletes.

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    30 days now without taking Type 2 meds...my blood sugars are running between 98-102in the morning. Meaning my blood sugars are running normal like someone without Diabetes. I'm living proof that one can manage their diabetes thru a plant base diet.

    Plus, I just got back from a wildland fire in Colorado Spring, (Black Forest Fire), which makes eating a plant base diet really hard... all fire camps have tons of junk food aval...but I was able to stay on the plant base diet, on the road...my blood sugar this morning was 99...I'm happy to be home and plan to go on a ride this PM. I love America, because we all have so many food choices, and that is a good thing!
    Yeah, well, you know...that's just like your opinion man! -The Dude- 1998
    Trex

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