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  1. #401
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    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

    While our digestive tract might look just like an herbivore, our frontal teeth are shaped for ripping and tearing into flesh. Pretty good evolution to be able to survive on eating whatever is most readily available.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf View Post
    Adding more fuel to the fire. I have been vegetarian for over 12 years now. No meat, chicken fish etc. BUT I did eat a lot of cheese, milk, eggs and I love ice cream to no end! BUT I am going more "radical" in my diet now that I have spent some time researching diet.
    From what I have been reading we don't need that much protein in our diet. Our biggest problem is too much protein and protein affects our kidneys lowers our calcium levels and produces cancer.
    People are herbivores based upon their bodies, mouths, teeth and long intestinal track. Our long intestinal track filled with meat is not natural. It is designed to digest fruits and vegetables.
    People take calcium supplements but a new study has come out to say it is not effective. It appears that it is not effective because of the excess protein most people take in is stripping our bodies of calcium.
    The lowest lived people are those that consume a lot of meat like Eskimos. The longest lived people are those who are on a diet mostly of vegetables and fruit.
    Back in 1976 when queried one of the heads of a cancer institute said that diet probably contributed towards 50 percent of cancers. When asked why only 1% of his funding was going towards nutrition, he said I often wonder about that (or something to that effect) Too much money is going to be left on the table if they find a cure for cancer, which given our diet they will probably never do.
    Even given my imperfect diet to date, I hardly ever get sick unlike when I used to eat meat. I would get a cold that would leave me hacking for a month or more.
    I lost an eye to cancer around 30 years ago so I know what a bummer it is to get cancer.

    Here is a pretty good link on vegetarianism and vegan-ism including some recipes!
    This link I am giving you speaks about how doctors generally know little about nutrition and life expectancy of people with different diets.
    http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/books/...a.html#doctors
    great post! looks like you're well on your way to a healthier lifestyle and the benefits that follow.

    as for the "war on cancer", well, that will never be won by mainstream medicine. the truth is that it's already been won long ago as we've known about a cancer cure for over 100 years of "modern society" and even longer than that in general (think hippocrates). however, there is no money in prevention and non-pharmacological/surgical cures. people don't want to be told that eating "x" or "y" will kill or seriously cripple them. for that matter look at smoking -- it's widely known that smoking is deadly yet look how many people still do it. it's the old "lead the horse to water..." syndrome.

    diet is directly related to most every cancer, that is both known and freely admitted by modern medicine. however, what is interesting is that there is pretty much ZERO emphasis on prevention. medical school is about pharmacology/surgery. most of nursing school is pharmacology. the entire medical industry is geared toward reactionary measures rather than prevention.

    there will not be an appreciable decrease in cancer rates until people take it upon themselves to deny themselves of things which, though they may find tasty, will ultimately directly kill them. the interesting thing is that the longer one doesn't eat these things the more one loses their taste for them and most eventually find repulsive smelling/tasting.

    "let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food" ~ hippocrates
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  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

    While our digestive tract might look just like an herbivore, our frontal teeth are shaped for ripping and tearing into flesh. Pretty good evolution to be able to survive on eating whatever is most readily available.
    i not only whole-heartedly agree with tyson's statement but use it frequently in discussions on this topic. however, the statement in bold is based wholly in opinion rather than science or fact as human incisors (frontal teeth) are poorly designed/evolved/equipped for tearing into flesh yet are perfect for cutting through fruits/vegetables/foliage. they are broad, flat, and spade shaped akin to other herbivores and noticeably unlike carnivores.

    human incisors:



    pop quiz! perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell us which they most closely resemble:

    A:


    B:


    C:


    D:
    Last edited by monogod; 02-27-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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  4. #404
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    Saw this, and thought of this thread.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Vegetarian and Vegan Passion-48143_337243989709104_355171147_n.jpg  

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  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    i not only whole-heartedly agree with tyson's statement but use it frequently in discussions on this topic. however, the statement in bold is based wholly in opinion rather than science or fact as human incisors (frontal teeth) are poorly designed/evolved/equipped for tearing into flesh yet are perfect for cutting through fruits/vegetables/foliage. they are broad, flat, and spade shaped akin to other herbivores and noticeably unlike carnivores.

    human incisors:



    pop quiz! perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell us which they most closely resemble:

    A:


    B:


    C:


    D:

    HA! Couldent have said it better!

  6. #406
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    Name:  6a013486f52e0b970c0134878d137a970c-800wi.jpg
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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion-pongo-pygmaeus-orang-utan-16.jpg

    Just sayin'. Apes eat bugs too, fwiw, and a bit of meat from small prey. The vast, vast majority of diet is plant material and bugs, either way.

    EAT MOAR BUGS!

    *shudders*

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Just sayin'. Apes eat bugs too, fwiw, and a bit of meat from small prey. The vast, vast majority of diet is plant material and bugs, either way.

    EAT MOAR BUGS!

    *shudders*
    posting pictures/info of functional construct/design herbivores that are at times elective carnivores has pretty much zero relevance to the comparative anatomy of herbivores to carnivores.

    just sayin'....
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  8. #408
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    Hey, Mono, wipe those lead paint chips off your shoulder. The teeth of primates more closely resemble ours than either horses or dogs, so I belive it is most relevant to the conversation.

    If we are using the diets of animals with comparative teeth as a talking point, perhaps it would be more honest to the conversation to use a closer relative to humans than extreme examples, hmmm?

    We were built to forage, if the conversation is turning towards anatomy. Most foraging involves picking through plant material. When droughts and winter come through, foragers have to get a bit more clever. Hence, bugs and small game. I am no primate expert, but they may also just enjoy the taste as well. We certainly are guilty of following our tongues first.

    But the point still remains... we are equipped with the ability to process meat because we are meant to have the option to eat it on occasion. Culture has turned gluttonous due to our clever brains figuring out how we can ALWAYS be eating the best tasting stuff instead of simply what we need to live.

    Vegan is what we are meant to be. But a bbq every once in a while is also completely healthy and normal. No need for militancy in this, you scare away all the vegan curious if you try to tell them they can NEVER EVER EVER have bubbas famous pulled pork again. They just can't eat it every day if they want to be healthy and see the benefits of veganism.

  9. #409
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    There is a good article in the latest Nat. Geo. about bonobos (cousin to the chimp.) It talks quite a bit about their diet, and their addition of the occasional animal protein.
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  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Hey, Mono, wipe those lead paint chips off your shoulder. The teeth of primates more closely resemble ours than either horses or dogs, so I belive it is most relevant to the conversation.
    hey maya, if i respond by insulting you will that be ok or will you cry foul like you did the last time i responded to your insults with insults?

    you do realize that the "pop quiz" comparison was in response to the suggestion that human incisors are designed to cut and tear flesh, right? so ANY herbivore incisor would have sufficed. additionally, the dogs incisors are dissimilar to humans rather than similar to them. that was the whole point.

    ape incisors are no more similar in design/construct to humans than are horses. however, the reason examples from the ape family weren't included is the first response is usually something along the lines of "but some primates eat non plant matter so they're not herbivores". thus, by not using apes it avoids having to reiterate that apes, like humans, are functional construct herbivores and sometimes apes, like humans, are elective omnivores.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemaya
    If we are using the diets of animals with comparative teeth as a talking point, perhaps it would be more honest to the conversation to use a closer relative to humans than extreme examples, hmmm?
    since we're discussing comparative anatomy of functional construct herbivores with functional construct carnivores maybe it was entirely honest to actually compare the differences between the two classes, hmmmmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemaya
    But the point still remains... we are equipped with the ability to process meat because we are meant to have the option to eat it on occasion.
    "able" to process it and "designed/evolved" to process it are two wholly mutually exclusive things, and is a poor argument for equipped/designed/evolved to process it. just because the human machine is so incredibly designed (irrespective of the method) that it is able to process materials it is not designed to ingest is hardly "proof" meat should be included in the diet. studies have shown that even infrequent meat ingestion (i.e. 3-4x weekly) increases the risk of many types of cancers.

    so really the point that remains is -- "able" to? yes. "properly equipped/designed/evolved" to? absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemaya
    Vegan is what we are meant to be....
    yup!

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemaya
    you scare away all the vegan curious if you try to tell them they can NEVER EVER EVER have bubbas famous pulled pork again.
    wow... a red herring AND a strawman all rolled into one!

    for one thing, how would it scare away the "vegan curious" when they are curious about a diet that DOESN'T INCLUDE MEAT?!?!?!? unless the "vegan curious" is profoundly ignorant of what the word "vegan" means they already know a vegan diet doesn't include bubba's famous pulled pork.

    for another, no one is telling anyone what they can or can't eat. in fact, i even provided bacon recipes in a similar discussion on this topic.

    just sayin'...
    Last edited by monogod; 03-04-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by xgjokax View Post
    I don't know how I never checked out this part of the forums before!

    Just wanted to chime in...
    I've been vegan for over 15 years and veg for even longer.

    If anyone needs any recipes or has questions then please drop me a line.
    start a thread on it and kick us off with a good one. there's been other interest expressed in such a topic as well.
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  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Okay all you fellow hippies, check in here. Share recipes and other BS, tree-hugger stuff - ethical cycling gear (non-skin) perhaps?

    By the way, do I still get to be part of the club if I'm a strict vegetarian (for ethical reasons) yet have a gun collection and a proud member of the NRA?
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  13. #413
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    You see, I am not a black and white kinda gal. So, when two extremes are used to make a point, I tend to want to narrow things in to make a much more accurate point instead of broad, sweeping ones.

    Human teeth are actually quite different from horse teeth as well. One of the BIGGEST differences seemed to be left out of the picture of human teeth that was posted, which is the cuspids! I often hear people say that these canines are 'proof' that we are meant to be carnivores. A quick googling of horse teeth revealed to me that horses also have canines. I learned that these are believed to be used for fighting, which based on their location and the fact horses do, in fact, bite to fight, makes sense. Horses have canines, but they aren't carnivores, are they? So a broad statement like canines= meat is simply not true! In the same sense, saying incisors= plants would be incorrect, as many carnivores have them. They come in as many different sizes for different functions as canines. Ours, for example, are meant for soft plant matter, and are unable to rip and tear stuff a horse could.

    However, it is unclear why primates have canines, though there certainly are theories. Based on mouth size, humans clearly did not evolve to bite as a primary defense mechanism (ha! Tell Mike Tyson that!). The canines in humans and primates, as far as science can tell, are the ripping and tearing type and not the fighting or 'look at how big and sexxy my teeths are' type.


    An interesting article on this issue
    goes through a number of the Pliocene hominids, who are found between the split from the apes and before the **** hominids. It basically shows the flexibility of the species that began with teeth seemingly meant for only chewing stuff that was soft or brittle. No branches, but plenty of flowers, nuts, and BUGS! They definitely did not appear to be the kind that could tear into flesh and meat, and even fruit came along later in the evolution. A nice little summery of how this relates to the conversation on teeth:

    However, as shown by the work of Lucas and colleagues (39), variations in tooth size are a means of adapting to changes in the external characteristics of foods, such as their size, shape, and abrasiveness. Clearly, some of these food characteristics were changing during the evolution of the earliest hominids, as postcanine teeth became relatively larger and larger. However, evidence from the middle to late Miocene shows that tooth size, by itself, cannot pinpoint the initial change to a hominid diet, at least not with the samples at hand.
    And, the conclusion, which addresses the burning question of 'But what about MEAT?!'

    Another important aspect of early hominid trophic adaptations is evident from data presented here—the dietary shift from apes to early hominids did not involve an increase in the consumption of tough foods, and so the australopithecines were not preadapted for eating meat. This conclusion runs counter to (i) recent isotope work suggesting that the australopithecines did in fact consume significant amounts of meat (7) and (ii) nutritional work suggesting that meat may have provided critical nutrients for both young and old hominids (77–79). There would seem to be three different ways to reconcile these perspectives. First, the present study has reviewed only craniodental features related to diet. If the australopithecines used other means for ingesting and processing meat (e.g., tools), they might have been able to process meat more efficiently than the craniodental evidence suggests (80, 81). Second, the heavy C3 signature found in A. africanus (7) may reflect the consumption of underground storage organs of C3 plants rather than meat (82). Third, the functional analyses of the teeth assume that all meat has the same degree of toughness. This may not be the case. Studies of the physical properties of food have thus far focused on plant remains, with only brief mention of the toughness of materials like skin (40, 46). Variations in toughness between animal tissues might well be due to variations in the arrangement and density of collagen matrix. Furthermore, the physical effects of decomposition might render meat less tough and more readily processed by hominids. If this is so, it could be further evidence in support of scavenging as part of the early hominid way of life.

    Investigators have tried to relate patterns of hominid evolution to patterns of climatic change for some time (3, 4). The focus of much of the recent work has been on the origin of the genus ****. Can the dietary shifts in the earliest hominids also be tied to such changes? Whereas there is some evidence of large-scale climatic changes around the Mediterranean (83) and unusual faunal turnover in parts of western Asia (84), there are no large-scale changes evident in sub-Saharan Africa until after the earliest hominids have arrived on the scene (i.e., not until 1.5–2.5 million years ago). There is the slow and inexorable cooling and drying of the Miocene, but perhaps the crucial result of this was an increase in microhabitat variability. Certainly, there are limits to our paleoecological evidence from this period, but as Potts (4) has noted, “in general, the oldest hominids were associated with a diverse range of habitats.” These included lake and river margins, woodland, bushland, and savanna. Potts (4) has emphasized that locomotor versatility was a crucial adaptation of the earliest hominids in the face of such varied environmental conditions. We feel that this perspective needs to be extended to the dietary adaptations of the earliest hominids as well. In such a land of variable opportunities, the generalized craniodental toolkit of the earliest hominids may have had a distinct advantage, as it allowed our forbears the flexibility to cope with short-term and long-term climatic variations and the resultant changes in resource availability.
    The work referenced that suggests early hominids were eating meat before they were using tools can be found here. This research led to conclusions that meat helped the brain to evolve rapidly, leading to very clever creatures that eventually figured out how to make tools and fire.

    From all of this, what I am seeing is that hominid brains evolved faster than their physiology. It seems that there was a point where our brains were evolving much more quickly than the rest of our bodies, which didn't give the teeth a chance to catch up! Our earliest ancestors primarily ate vegan diets with bugs, but this changed in a short period of time when we became clever enough to use tools to get ahead instead of waiting for evolution to catch up. It has been suggested that the diet change assisted by the use of tools (ie, heavy consumption of Brontosaurus ribs ) rapidly increased the rate of evolution of the brain (so Fred Flintstone could watch TV!). Once our brains began to evolve, there no longer was a need for certain traits to be as highly selective as before, since what was currently equipped was still working just fine with the help of tools. Stone tools and fire meant we could eat foods our teeth would otherwise not be able to process. We already had teeth than were meant for a fairly diverse and adaptable diet, so it wasn't like trying to feed a steak to a horse or an apple to a dog. Those are extreme examples, and our teeth fall somewhere in the middle, just like primates'. Without advanced tool use (though basic tools, like sticks, allow them to eat bugs!) and fire, primates are unable to really eat much meat, even though their teeth are very similar to ours.

    So, in regards to what kind of diet our teeth support? Anything, honestly If you take our clever brains out of the equation, we are talking nuts, soft leaves, fruits, bugs, and anything bite-sized. The articles seem to be unsure about the raw meat and game chewing abilities of species that came directly before tool-using hominids due to lack of enough fossils. This will change eventually But what they DO know is that the fossil record seems to indicate that early branches all had different plant-based diets.

    Until there is a bit more to the fossil record, I would say it is best to stick to what we DO know; personal experience. Cause, gawd, being vegetarian and vegan makes people feel awesome One of those things where you feel it for yourself instead of trying to pick through the fossil record to find an answer. Modern nutritional evidence supports the health benefits of a balanced vegan/ vegetarian diet (no french fry vegans, come on!), where we use our clever brains to properly balance our nutrients instead of merely hacking up and burning every critter we get our hands on


    ETA: The **** is the forum censoring the shortened name for H. Erectus, which is also a not nice slang for folks who like others of the same gender


    More recipes when I get some downtime, Monzie! I have some I can flip through or suggestions I can make if you are craving something in particular

  14. #414
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    Frontal teeth!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    You see, I am not a black and white kinda gal. So, when two extremes are used to make a point, I tend to want to narrow things in to make a much more accurate point instead of broad, sweeping ones.
    they weren't "broad sweeping" extremes.

    perhaps in your haste to argue you missed the fact that the "pop quiz" made a very accurate point as it was a rather narrow comparison of FRONTAL TEETH design/shape/function between functional construct herbivores and functional construct carnivores.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Human teeth are actually quite different from horse teeth as well.
    human incisors: broad, flat, spade shaped.
    equine incisors: broad, flat, spade shaped.

    hmmmmm..... no, seems the FRONTAL TEETH of a human and horse are not quite different after all.

    perhaps in your haste to argue you completely missed both the original and restated point that it was specifically the FRONTAL TEETH that were being compared in the pop quiz in response to a statement about FRONTAL TEETH. the comparison was also not meant to contrast or compare human/equine in general but rather to contrast and compare herbivore/carnivore FRONTAL TEETH shape/design/function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    One of the BIGGEST differences seemed to be left out of the picture of human teeth that was posted, which is the cuspids!
    that's because we were talking about FRONTAL TEETH!

    seriously, you would have saved yourself a lot of searching, typing, and arguing had you actually read the quote in bold that post #404 both quoted and was in response to. in reading that ENTIRE post it is quite clear that the pop quiz pictures were in response to the following statement: "our frontal teeth are shaped for ripping and tearing into flesh" rather than a generalized comment/comparison between equine oral/dental structure and human's. i went to far as to directly point out that it was "incisors (frontal teeth)" that were being compared in the pictures. (hint: the post was clearly and unmistakably talking about and referring to FRONTAL TEETH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    So a broad statement like canines= meat is simply not true! In the same sense, saying incisors= plants would be incorrect, as many carnivores have them.
    you're jousting windmills, don quixote, as no one has made either argument!

    canine, incisor, cuspid, molar, etc are used to denote PLACEMENT rather than FUNCTION. it is the SHAPE of the incisor which typically denotes function and differs between functional construct herbivores/carnivores, and THAT is what was being discussed. you are retorting points and rebutting positions no one other than yourself has made.

    herbivore incisors: flat, broad, spade shaped, generally abutted against each other.
    carnivore incisors: narrow, pointed, prong-like, sometimes serrated, and discretely spaced to avoid trapping stringy debris.

    this is what the pop quiz pictures illustrated and were meant to compare.... FRONTAL TEETH. that's why all three pictures of functional construct carnivores in the pop quiz very prominently showcased their FRONTAL TEETH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    They [incisors] come in as many different sizes for different functions as canines. Ours, for example, are meant for soft plant matter, and are unable to rip and tear stuff a horse could.
    that's simply incorrect. our incisors allow us to rip and tear the same type of stuff a horse can because they are similarly shaped (broad, flat, spade shaped). the difference is in the strength of the jaw musculature which is what allows horses to rip into thicker plant material (a whole cantaloupe, watermelon rinds, etc.) that we cannot.

    however, we can do the exact same thing to plant matter (hard or soft) as can a horse - just on a smaller scale. take carrots or apples for example. humans can bite into hard plant matter with our broad, flat, spade shaped incisors and rip/tear chunks off to grind into a pulp with our wide, flat molars and side to side jaw action.

    as for the expository monologue on evolution i'll not even address or retort -- for the simple reason that if someone suggested (and provided supporting examples) that there is less basis and evidence (both circumstantial and objective) to support long, gradual, undirected evolution than there is to support functional intelligent design you'd blow a gasket and start ranting and raving about "sky daddy" because someone dared exercise the same latitude to discuss their position regarding organic origin (i.e. evolution vs. I.D.) that you feel you're entitled to have.

    tsk, tsk, tsk... disingenuous to say the least.
    Last edited by monogod; 03-05-2013 at 09:42 AM.
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  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dion
    Dion View Post
    Okay all you fellow hippies, check in here. Share recipes and other BS, tree-hugger stuff - ethical cycling gear (non-skin) perhaps?

    By the way, do I still get to be part of the club if I'm a strict vegetarian (for ethical reasons) yet have a gun collection and a proud member of the NRA?
    ...
    jah.... i know that was the first post in the thread but it has meandered, ebbed, and flowed into various things requiring digging for recipes posted.

    was kinda referring more to a thread specifically titled "vegan recipes" (or something of the sort) to be devoid of side topics.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  16. #416
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    Are you two married to each other?
    I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I just hate vegetables.

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    this thread, as of late, has too much passionate jargon throwing for my taste. pseudo academic palaver of the panajandrum, self-styled philosopher monogod is tiring, ad hominem, and hypocritical.
    Spoiler alert: non-gluten free recipe below.
    But I can still share our new-found and beloved bread recipe: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html
    There are many variations. It's amazing that we're now making bread at home that tastes as good as the stuff we used to buy from a local baker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    although i may say whatever i want in the derogatory/confrontational/condemnatory manner i choose in public forums i refuse to allow anyone else such latitude -- and if they do so and/or i'm disagreed with i'll get all butthurt and respond solely with ad-homs.

    But I can still share our new-found and beloved bread recipe: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html
    There are many variations. It's amazing that we're now making bread at home that tastes as good as the stuff we used to buy from a local baker.
    FIFY

    all jesting aside though, the bread recipe looks not only tasty but also like a great starting point for lots of variations.

    in the spirit of olive branch reciprocity (pun intended) here's one of my faves:

    rosemary olive bread

    2 TBSP instant yeast
    2 cups water
    2 cups unbleached flour
    2 cups whole wheat flour
    4 TBSP olive oil
    2 TBSP ground flax
    1 tsp salt
    1 TBSP dried rosemary (more or less according to your preference) i tend to use a bit more because i LOVE rosemary.
    1 cup sliced olives (or more according to your preference) i tend to use 1.5-2 cups because, like rosemary, the more the better!

    mix all ingredients in a large bowl with a mixer for 5 minutes or knead by hand for 10 mins. i generally use my bread maker on knead mode.

    cover and let rise in bowl in a warm place until it doubles in size (or more). i usually let it rise for an hour or two but not more than that because then it starts to ferment and smell like beer...

    after it rises, form it into rolls, braid it into a loaf or set it in a bread pan(s). make sure to grease whatever pan you bake it in. bake @ 350 for 25 minutes or so or until a toothpick inserted in the middle comes out clean.

    <font size=1>p.s. did it even slightly occur to you that the palaver would've been unnecessary had a certain respondent more thoroughly grasped/comprehended posts they were responding to?
    p.p.s. interesting that you condemn he who responds with clarification to posts rife with errant response and full of rebuttals to self-styled and erected strawmen yet give a pass to they who instigated/engaged/trolled for argument.
    p.p.p.s. you misspelled "panjandrum" </size>
    Last edited by monogod; 03-05-2013 at 10:05 PM.
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  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orthoguy View Post
    Are you two married to each other?
    not yet.... but we're madly in love!
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  20. #420
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    Ok, just for my favorite kinky, horny, holiday sweater-wearing ferret, a recipe And! It is CHEAP. Most stuff you already have in your pantry, the rest is cheap and will last you.

    This is actually a recipe inspired by one from work It wasn't *meant* to be vegan, it just happens to be so! I make it, on average, once a week, and in six gallon batches. I will attempt to convert this into a more reasonable size from memory (my recipes are kept at work), but I eye everything anyways Everything can be adjusted to taste! If you like spicy, add some of that garlic chili sauce. Yum!

    Asian salad dressing (I know, original, huh?)

    Ok, ok... ummm...

    Honey Sesame Peanut Ginger Asian Dressing *giggles* Yield: about 1.5 cups

    4oz Rice vinegar
    1 tbsp smooth peanut butter (If you use the plain unsalted, unsweetened stuff, adjust the recipe to add a bit more honey and a dash of salt)
    1/2 oz fresh, or 1/2 tbsp dried powder ginger
    2 tbsp soy sauce
    1 tsp minced garlic
    1.5 tsp wasabi powder (the fake stuff that is basically green powdered horseradish. If you have the real stuff, go REALLY easy unless you like hot )
    2.5 tsp mustard powder
    3.5 oz honey (I think it is only a few tablespoons. 1 cup weighs well over 8oz, but I have never measured it)
    salt to taste

    Blend all these ingredients together thoroughly. Very, very slowly add, while blender or food processor is running:

    16oz vegetable oil mixed with 1.5 tbsp sesame oil.

    It should take you a good 5 minutes to add the oil if you do it right. Nice and slow to get the emulsification right, and get a nice, creamy texture!



    Now, how to serve it? Over salad!

    Freshly shredded cabbage
    handful of romaine lettuce
    shredded carrots
    scallions
    Vegan wonton wrappers, cut into 1/2" strips, and fried (optional, but I suggest you don't skip it cause they are super yummy! They freeze well so you can use the package again.)
    canned mandarin oranges, drained
    roasted cashews, roughly chopped

    Optional:
    favorite chicken substitute, such as fried tofu or (my favorite) Quorn Naked Cutlets. The salad doesn't really need these for flavor, it is for stuff like more energy before a race The Quorn Naked Cutlets are EXPENSIVE, but really good!


    The dressing is freaking awesome and goes good on a spoon too

    Enjoy!

  21. #421
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    Holy drama,ill try my best to get the conversation moving in a less cumbersome direction. I am not vegetarian but am becoming more of one the last couple years...no red meat, mainly fish and occasional chicken.

    Korean fried califlower:
    1/2 cup corn starch
    1/2 cup flour
    1/3 cup toasted sesame seeds
    1/3 cup unsweetened coconut
    1/2 cup cold water
    1/2 cup vodka(secret ingredient)

    Coat, shake, fry then smother in a sweet soy sauce, something like:
    1/2 cup soy sauce
    1/4 cup rice vinegar
    1/4 cup sweet cooking wine
    Honey
    Sriracha
    Scallions
    Simmer and reduce til thickened

    Tastes like Korean fried chicken!

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    Honestly, if I had known ape teeth were such a controversial topic, I never would have brought them up. I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation. I found it pretty rude that a topic i found interesting was shot down before anyone had a chance to talk about it. Ignoring the drama and doing the research myself just seemed to kill the conversation altogether. Boo. :/

    It's something i hear meat supporters bring up quite often, the purpose of our canines, so it seemed a direction the conversation would eventually take when one came by to bring it up. (You know, right after the hundredth person came by to say vegans taste like chicken. Harhar.) I had often wondered about them myself, which is why it interested me. We can always look at our closest living relatives, chimps and orangutans (I think orangutans are the other closest related, but I couldn't remember for sure. Dubthang mentioned Bonobos, which may have been the one I meant!) for clues to lots of questions we have about ourselves. They usually are a good starting point to answers, so it seemed a good way to start the conversation about canines and their meat-eating function! I always think that the more informed we are, the better case we can make for meat-free lifestyles, ya know? Anyways, I just did the research myself, and posted my findings and conclusions I drew. Hope someone can dig through the mess and find something interesting like I did. *shrug*

    I'm done with teeth now too, I guess. I never intended to debate them, just wanted to learn some more about them by picking some other's brains. So it's best to move on, hmm?

    So, how about poop? It's all about the poop, they say! But, less specifically, metabolism as a whole.

    Now, I have heard this, but not confirmed if it's true; humans are born lactose intolerant, and only with repeated exposure to dairy in our regular diet do we lose the sensitivity. When I was vegan, I would have a bit of ice cream or a grilled cheese once in a while when I was craving them. After months with no dairy, they made me feel pretty icky. Loose bowels and such (but worth it!). I figured, at the time, it was the sugar of the ice cream that did it (I am sensitive to lots of sugar) and the grease of the cheese when I had been eating so low fat. Later, when I heard about the lactose intolerance, I thought that might have been the actual cause! I still eat barely any dairy, except my two weaknesses of cheese and ice cream I cook with non dairy stuff, and only keep that on hand. Take soy in my coffee or drink it black. I really cant stand milk any more! Hate eggs, but have recently gotten into plain fat free greek yogurt for a gentle on the tummy and healthy breakfast. Despite eating so little dairy, I have no problems with yogurt.

    People have also brought up, but not really elaborated on, human's ability to process meat. Is there research on it? Raw food advocates also say that burning meat-- and any food, for that matter, introduces carcinogenics that are toxic. If this is true, why dont our liver and kidneys takes care of it? Or, do they, and it isn't something to worry about?

    And, finally, our body's ability to form complete proteins WITHOUT the need for meat! This is essential for a healthy vegan and vegetarian lifestyle! Vegans and vegetarians need to know how to combine foods in order to get complete proteins from them. I am a bit tired and have very little free time, so perhaps someone has the handy charts and information they can post here to help out those who don't know how to do it?

    That should be a good start to get the talk going!

    I apologize in advance if any of these topics rub anyone the wrong way. Feel free to ignore them so we can keep the conversation moving forward and informative My PM box is always open <3

    Oh, and post moar recipes for Monzie. He's hungry

  23. #423
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    People who are interested in how humans evolved to digest meat and make it a large part of their diet can read Ch. 8 "Why eat like a caveman?" in Paleo Diet for Athletes. Dr Cordain has done a lot of research on the diet of ancient humans and their evolution. The short version is that teeth doesn't matter that much because we use tools and fire. We were not designed or evolved to eat plants only due to our body's poor ability to synthesize taurine and 20-carbon fatty acids, essential nutrients that are only present in meats. Our digestive tract is too short to be fully herbivorous. (We can get away with it these days because fruits and vegetables have been bred to be softer and sweeter. We can also eat "enriched" bread, a product of the industrial revolution.)

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Honestly, if I had known ape teeth were such a controversial topic, I never would have brought them up. I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation. I found it pretty rude that a topic i found interesting was shot down before anyone had a chance to talk about it. Ignoring the drama and doing the research myself just seemed to kill the conversation altogether. Boo. :/
    you made some good points and asked some great questions. i'll respond to both your "drama" comments and your actual/factual questions and comments, and will invest far more to actual/factual than drama content. but let's start with the actual/factual first.

    ape teeth aren't a controversial topic and you know it. yes, you are 100% correct that ape teeth are functional design herbivore as are humans and no one argued that or shot that down. yes you are 100% correct that like humans some apes are elective omnivores. however, the non-plant material in the ape's diet is around 2-3% which is SUBSTANTIALLY lower than most human elective carnivores.

    to put this in perspective, 3% non-plant matter in the diet is the equivalent of 3 ounces out of every 6.25 pounds of food being non-plant matter!!! and that takes into account ALL animal based foods, both flesh AND byproducts! to further put that into perspective that is a 2 ounce meat patty with 1 ounce of cheese for every 6.25 pounds of fruits, grains, veggies, legumes, nuts, seeds, berries, and greens.

    per the drama:

    come on maya, if ya wanna get along we can get along and if you wanna squabble we can squabble. i'm totally cool with either way you want it to go. but either way (and i say this with love rather than aggression) quit playing the victim. not only is it factually disingenuous but you're better than that and it's beneath you. specifically, while post #404 (my initial response to you) was not rude some might find your opening comment in post #409 to be rude, unprovoked, and begging for conflict and debate yet you hold yourself out as doing nothing but asking an innocent question and subsequently being savagely victimized verbally. you decry the drama yet pretty much initiated it! let's put the cards on the table and call all that what it is... bovine excrement! that's like poking a beehive and then crying, playing the victim, and blaming the bees when you get stung. just sayin'....

    the pop quiz was a retort to "human front teeth are designed to rip/tear meat", to which you replied with a non-sequitur. given the way you've engaged me in the past and the tone of both your initial ape teeth post and it's immediate follow up you can hardly claim it would be unreasonable to see them as inflammatory and confrontational. if you recall you've blatantly (and even proudly) admitted in the past that you enjoy trolling me for arguments and i somewhat suspected from the initial post in which you engaged me that you might be doing so again. but it's a topic i enjoy discussing so i figured "what the hey", either way some good points will be brought out and it's not as though i don't mind a spirited debate from time to time either (nor do you, and we both know it).

    so no, it's not that ape teeth are a controversial topic or that your interesting topic got "shot down". rather, you engaged with insults and by arguing and rebutting points and positions that no one but you was making. (i.e. strawmen) and no, i didn't mind the insult nor did it hurt my feelings. i'm just tired of people wanting to play rough and be snarky and then crying like a little poof when it's reciprocated.

    not trying to point fingers or keep track of points, just helping to keep the facts straight and avoid the revisionist history being constructed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    It's something i hear meat supporters bring up quite often, the purpose of our canines, so it seemed a direction the conversation would eventually take when one came by to bring it up. (You know, right after the hundredth person came by to say vegans taste like chicken. Harhar.) I had often wondered about them myself, which is why it interested me.
    the simplest answer to meat supporters that bring up canines is that "canine" simply denotes placement rather than function. for example, both herbivores and carnivores have molars but they are very different in construct and function.

    also, some functional construct herbivores (certain primates, for example) have very long canines but they are for display/defense/tools rather than tearing meat. we know this because the rest of their GI tract is 100% herbivore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    We can always look at our closest living relatives, chimps and orangutans (I think orangutans are the other closest related, but I couldn't remember for sure. Dubthang mentioned Bonobos, which may have been the one I meant!) for clues to lots of questions we have about ourselves. They usually are a good starting point to answers, so it seemed a good way to start the conversation about canines and their meat-eating function!
    chimps are the closest to humans but they are not necessarily our relatives. such a suppositionary conclusion is based on facts not in evidence. it's equally, perhaps even more so, possible (along with irrefutably more probable mathematically) that they are simply a similarly designed species rather than a precursory ancestor resultant to blind random chance. but that's another discussion all its own...

    that being said, when looking to classify humans as either functional construct herbivores/carnivores and in specific how to deal with the "canine teeth" issue i would suggest it's not necessary or even substantially beneficial to confine the investigation merely to other primates. "canine" simply indicates placement rather than function. it is the shape of the canine tooth along with taxonomic features of the rest of the digestive tract which more accurately defines function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    I always think that the more informed we are, the better case we can make for meat-free lifestyles, ya know? Anyways, I just did the research myself, and posted my findings and conclusions I drew. Hope someone can dig through the mess and find something interesting like I did. *shrug*

    I'm done with teeth now too, I guess. I never intended to debate them, just wanted to learn some more about them by picking some other's brains. So it's best to move on, hmm?
    move on? no need at all. if you wish to discuss teeth then let's discuss them. in fact, i'll post some comparative anatomy of functional construct herbivore/carnivore teeth and GI tract below.

    but there may be some that might suggest the best way to pick people's brains is with with civil engagement and questions rather than contradictory challenges, strawmen, red herrings, and insults. not scolding you, my dear... just offering a friendly suggestion if your desire was truly to discuss and learn vs. engage and argue. but hey, even if you just wanted to argue that's ok too... just don't try to pretend it was something it wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    So, how about poop? It's all about the poop, they say! But, less specifically, metabolism as a whole.
    poop, you say? just so happens there's a thread for that!

    from a metabolism aspect humans lack the anatomical, chemical, and biophysical construct/ability to properly digest and assimilate meat. see the comparative anatomy below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Now, I have heard this, but not confirmed if it's true; humans are born lactose intolerant, and only with repeated exposure to dairy in our regular diet do we lose the sensitivity.
    that is absolutely correct regarding adverse reaction to dairy from birth, but has to do with the proteins in cow's milk as well. and the symptoms you related after going dairy free are very common for other that go dairy free or have never or seldom consumed it as well. once weened off of breast milk dairy shouldn't be introduced into the body again.

    milk consumption, for example, has been proven to leads to insulin dependent diabetes. why? the body sees the casein protein in milk as an antigen and will set up antibodies to combat/destroy it. however, this milk protein is very similar to the beta cells in the islets of Langerhans in the pancreas that produce insulin and amylin. similar enough that the antibodies the body produces in response to the casein protein will then frequently have an autoimmune response to the beta cells in pancreas and destroy them -- and along with them the body's ability to produce insulin. this is not theory, this is a well documented finding supported by decades of research.

    the scary thing is this is not new information, it's information that the dairy industry spends millions upon millions yearly to suppress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    People have also brought up, but not really elaborated on, human's ability to process meat. Is there research on it? Raw food advocates also say that burning meat-- and any food, for that matter, introduces carcinogenics that are toxic. If this is true, why dont our liver and kidneys takes care of it? Or, do they, and it isn't something to worry about?
    human's ability to process meat? it's "able" to do so but very inefficiently and with great taxation on the body if repetitively burdened with this task.

    heating most any food above 117 degrees begins to destroy enzymes and other micronutrients contained within. this is why raw is ultimately best. however, cooking meat does form carcinogens, and burning it even more so.

    the liver and kidneys are poorly equipped to handle and detoxify this load, just as the cardiovascular is ill equipped to handle the cholesterol and other insulting agents introduced into it via ingesting meat. most cancers are lifestyle related. most GI cancers, for example, are a direct result of high meat intake with vegans very rarely developing them. studies have also shown that even infrequent meat consumption of 3-4x weekly increases the risk of many cancers other than merely GI such as breast cancer.

    cancer has been reversed and cured for over 100 years by simply going to a complete vegetarian diet. this is also rather well documented but information that is suppressed by the meat and dairy industry similar to how the tobacco companies for decades were able to hide the fact that smoking caused lung cancer. heck, doctors used to RECOMMEND cigarettes to improve asthma. even after it was known to cause cancer tobacco companies marketed it with doctors (winston: "more doctors smoke winston than any other brand") and even used the flintstones and beverly hillbillies to sell their ciggies. there are old black and white commercials from each show in which fred, wilma, granny, and jed are shown smoking cigarettes. even old tom and jerry and looney tunes showed characters smoking.

    the point being that it is a well known and documented fact that alternative cures to cancer exist that don't require radical surgery and radiating the body. it is well known that most cancers are completely lifestyle/diet related, and that vegans seldom develop cancer. there are cancer cells in our bodies every day. this is not a problem as long as our immune systems can lyse them. it is only when our immune system is compromised by our lifestyle that cancer gains a hold in the body -- and this is why cancers are regularly beaten with nutrition therapy.

    so any research done on it? plenty. additionally, here's a bit of comparative anatomy:

    • jaw joint location: carnivore - same plane as molar teeth; herbivore - above plane of molars; human - above plane of molars
    • jaw motion: carnivore - shearing with minimal side to side motion; herbivore - little to no shear, good side to side and front to back; human - little to no shear, good side to side and front to back
    • major jaw muscles: carnivore - temporalis; herbivore - masseter and pterygoids; human - masseter and pterygoids
    • mouth opening vs. head size: carnivore - large; herbivore - small; human - small
    • teeth (incisrors): carnivore - short and pointed; herbivore - broad, flattened, spade shaped; human - broad, flattened, spade shaped
    • teeth (canine): carnivore - long, sharp, curved; herbivore - dull and short (long in some for defense), or none; human: short and blunted
    • teeth (molars): carnivore - sharp, jagged, blade shaped; herbivore - flattened with cusps vs. complex surface; humans - flattened with nodular cusps
    • chewing: carnivore - little to none necessary, swallows food whole; herbivore - extensive chewing necessary; human - extensive chewing necessary
    • saliva: carnivore - no digestive enzymes; herbivore - carbohydrate digesting enzymes; human - carbohydrate digesting enzymes
    • stomach acidity: carnivore - less than or equal to pH of 1 with food; herbivore - pH of 4 to 5 with food; human - pH of 4 to 5 with food
    • stomach capacity: 60-70% of digestive tract's total volume; herbivore - less than 30% of digestive tract's total volume; human - 21-27% of digestive tract's total volume
    • small intestine length: carnivore - 3 to 6 times body length; herbivore - 10 to 12+ times body length; human - 10 times body length
    • colon: carnivore - simple, short, smooth; herbivore - long, complex, may be sacculated; human - long, sacculated
    • liver: carnivore - can detoxify vit. A from animal meat; herbivore - can't detox vit. A from animal meat; human - can't detox vit. A from animal meat
    • kidney: carnivore - extremely concentrated urine; herbivore - moderately concentrated urine; human - moderately concentrated urine


    so clearly the human GI tract is horribly equipped to properly process not only the meat itself but also the extraction of nutrients and processing of toxins/wastes resultant to its ingestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    And, finally, our body's ability to form complete proteins WITHOUT the need for meat! This is essential for a healthy vegan and vegetarian lifestyle! Vegans and vegetarians need to know how to combine foods in order to get complete proteins from them. I am a bit tired and have very little free time, so perhaps someone has the handy charts and information they can post here to help out those who don't know how to do it?

    That should be a good start to get the talk going!
    well, the body doesn't actually form complete proteins with or without meat.

    protein is essential for many bodily functions and processes. it is used to build/repair tissue, make enzymes, hormones, and other chemicals as well as being an important basic building block for muscles, bones, skin, blood, and cartilage.

    however, protein is made up of amino acids. while the body manufactures 12 of them another 9, called essential amino acids, must be obtained from our food. so a "complete protein" is one that contains all of the essential amino acids rather than something that is produced by the body irrespective of one's diet.

    it is a complete myth that one needs meat to obtain complete proteins. while all animal proteins do contain all essential amino acids, as discussed previously the body is ill equipped to process/extract them and there is significant detriment that accompanies the ingesting of both animal flesh and by-products (i.e. dairy).

    many plants offer complete protein such as soy, spirulina, buckwheat, teff, amaranth, and quinoa. (just to name a few. corn too, but organic rather than GMO) further, many plant foods can be combined to make complete proteins such as beans and rice or corn. beans and grains (hummus and pita bread). beans and seeds/nuts like pasta and beans, nut butter on whole grain bread, tortillas with refried beans, split pea soup with whole grain bread, and veggie burgers on whole grain bread for a few examples.

    additionally, they don't have to be combined at the same meal to be effectively assimilated by the body. eat rice with one meal and beans with the next and you have a complete protein. in fact, you can spread this combination over a 2 day period and still get the complete protein.

    so basically as long as one is eating a nicely varied plant based diet of grains, legumes, seeds, nuts, greens, fruits, and veggies one cannot help but meet the body's need for complete protein.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Oh, and post moar recipes for Monzie. He's hungry
    monzie was actually reposting the very first post from this thread (in response to me suggesting someone create a recipe specific thread) rather than trolling for recipes. not sayin' he's not hungry, mind you... just sayin'. (i.e. a friendly poke)

    see? it's not so hard to play nicey-nice and have a civil discussion... is it?
    Last edited by monogod; 03-08-2013 at 07:27 AM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  25. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    People who are interested in some guy's theory of how humans might have evolved to digest meat and make it a large part of their diet can read Ch. 8 "Why eat like a caveman?" in Paleo Diet for Athletes.
    fify

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Dr Cordain has done a lot of research on the diet of ancient humans and their evolution.
    which is totally irrelevant. if modern man makes animal flesh and by-products a large part of their diet they will more likely than not develop one or more of the following: heart disease, various cancers, stroke, gout, and diabetes -- just to name a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    The short version is that teeth doesn't matter that much because we use tools and fire.
    teeth are but one component of the big picture. "tools and fire" is a poor and wholly inadequate/irrelevant response to, and hardly negate, the extensive and comprehensive comparative anatomy below.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    We were not designed or evolved to eat plants only
    that's simply not true. humans are irrefutably functional construct/design herbivores from lips to anus:

    • jaw joint location: carnivore - same plane as molar teeth; herbivore - above plane of molars; human - above plane of molars
    • jaw motion: carnivore - shearing with minimal side to side motion; herbivore - little to no shear, good side to side and front to back; human - little to no shear, good side to side and front to back
    • major jaw muscles: carnivore - temporalis; herbivore - masseter and pterygoids; human - masseter and pterygoids
    • mouth opening vs. head size: carnivore - large; herbivore - small; human - small
    • teeth (incisrors): carnivore - short and pointed; herbivore - broad, flattened, spade shaped; human - broad, flattened, spade shaped
    • teeth (canine): carnivore - long, sharp, curved; herbivore - dull and short (long in some for defense), or none; human: short and blunted
    • teeth (molars): carnivore - sharp, jagged, blade shaped; herbivore - flattened with cusps vs. complex surface; humans - flattened with nodular cusps
    • chewing: carnivore - little to none necessary, swallows food whole; herbivore - extensive chewing necessary; human - extensive chewing necessary
    • saliva: carnivore - no digestive enzymes; herbivore - carbohydrate digesting enzymes; human - carbohydrate digesting enzymes
    • stomach acidity: carnivore - less than or equal to pH of 1 with food; herbivore - pH of 4 to 5 with food; human - pH of 4 to 5 with food
    • stomach capacity: 60-70% of digestive tract's total volume; herbivore - less than 30% of digestive tract's total volume; human - 21-27% of digestive tract's total volume
    • small intestine length: carnivore - 3 to 6 times body length; herbivore - 10 to 12+ times body length; human - 10 times body length
    • colon: carnivore - simple, short, smooth; herbivore - long, complex, may be sacculated; human - long, sacculated
    • liver: carnivore - can detoxify vit. A from animal meat; herbivore - can't detox vit. A from animal meat; human - can't detox vit. A from animal meat
    • kidney: carnivore - extremely concentrated urine; herbivore - moderately concentrated urine; human - moderately concentrated urine


    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    We were not designed or evolved to eat plants only due to our body's poor ability to synthesize taurine
    again, simply not true. taurine is a non-essential amino acid which can be derived from food or synthesized from the amino acid cysteine when adequate levels of vitamin B6 are present. when one eats a varied and balanced vegan diet they will not suffer from taurine deficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    We were not designed or evolved to eat plants only due to our body's poor ability to synthesize... 20-carbon fatty acids
    yet again, simply not true. the two polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) that the body can't make are linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid. these must be provided by one's diet and are abundant in a well balanced vegan diet. both of these can be converted within the body to other PUFAs such as arachidonic acid, or eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Our digestive tract is too short to be fully herbivorous.
    and yet again, simply not true as can be clearly seen above.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    We can also eat "enriched" bread, a product of the industrial revolution.)
    we can also shoot cocaine, another product of the industrial revolution. but that doesn't make it good for us.

    diametrically opposed to whole grain breads the "enriched" breads are a nutritionally empty "food" which provides no soluble or insoluble fiber, is pretty much empty bad carbs, turns to sugar quickly and spikes blood glucose, and once in the stomach basically becomes more or less the same stuff you made paper mache with as a kid.

    in short, it's a nutritionally void highly processed food-like product that should be avoided at all costs.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Wait, was the discussion about evolutionary dietary adaptations, or modern healthful eating? Because humans were definitely not evolved to eat "a varied and balanced vegan diet" because agriculture, planes, and trucks were not invented yet. They could not one day eat some flax seeds, a rich source of ALA O3 fatty acids, which are inefficiently converted to EPA, and then decide to eat some bell peppers, a source of cysteiene, helping them in their meager biosynthesis of taurine.

    In the meantime, I found this page which has a long ass article if one is interested in evolution, teeth, apes, intestines, etc.
    Comparative Anatomy Updated. Humans--Omnivores or Vegetarians?

    I also noticed an interesting comment that a vegan diet can "cure" cancer. So if you already got cancer, you can go vegan and fix it? Really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    Wait, was the discussion about evolutionary dietary adaptations, or modern healthful eating?
    with all due respect, is this a serious question???

    to begin with, "evolutionary dietary adaptations" assumes facts not in evidence. specifically that the macro evolutionary theory of the origin of life and diversity of species is irrefutable.... which it is not. not by a long shot. it's on shaky ground at best with probability and logic strongly contravening it.

    however that is another discussion entirely, one not suited here, and one that for some reason you keep trying to force. you're squarely in the evolution camp. we get it. but that's irrelevant to whether or not man is (present tense) a functional construct herbivore.

    the position that you are refuting is that man is (present tense) irrefutably designed (irrespective of I.D. or evolution) as a functional construct herbivore. yet inexplicably you keep referring to evolution, which is wholly irrelevant to the current observable features, physiology, and biochemistry of the human digestive tract.

    again with all due respect after reviewing the past week or so of this thread it seems rather clear that this discussion has NEVER been about evolutionary dietary adaptations but rather the premise that humans are (present tense, i.e. "modern") or are not functional construct (irrespective of origin of design) herbivores.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Because humans were definitely not evolved to eat "a varied and balanced vegan diet" because agriculture, planes, and trucks were not invented yet. They could not one day eat some flax seeds, a rich source of ALA O3 fatty acids, which are inefficiently converted to EPA, and then decide to eat some bell peppers, a source of cysteiene, helping them in their meager biosynthesis of taurine.
    first of all, the statement "humans were definitely not evolved to eat..." yet again assumes facts not in evidence and is arguing a point not in contention.

    second, because we're not talking about what humans ate eons ago the "not invented yet" argument is wholly without merit and is a red herring and strawman in a discussion of whether humans are (present tense) functional construct herbivores.

    third, the body is capable of (and does quite adequately) synthesizing the EPA and taurine it needs from "a varied and balanced vegan diet". yet again, what ancient man ate eons ago is wholly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    In the meantime, I found this page which has a long ass article if one is interested in evolution, teeth, apes, intestines, etc.
    Comparative Anatomy Updated. Humans--Omnivores or Vegetarians?
    you "found a page" that has a "long ass article" on why man is not a functional construct herbivore despite the digestive tract being that of an herbivore from lips to anus? congratulations. after all, if it's on the internet it MUST be true.

    i personally find it disingenuous that if such chicanery were attempted with any other clearly classified functional construct herbivore the author would be ridiculed, scorned to shame, and ostracized by being laughed out of the scientific community. only with the clearly herbivorous digestive tract of one animal is this kind of nonsensical pablum and drivel accepted as a quantitative refutation.... humans. hmmmmm..... why is that? disingenuous, dishonest, quackery, and hypocritical don't even begin to cover such a supposition/position.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    I also noticed an interesting comment that a vegan diet can "cure" cancer. So if you already got cancer, you can go vegan and fix it? Really?
    yes. cancer is simply an outgrowth of certain types of cells that the immune system can no longer keep under control. one's diet has a huge impact on the immune system but there's more to it than simply "going vegan" to fix it. nutrition therapy is nothing new, is well documented, and quashing it (along with homeopathy) are but a couple of reasons the AMA was formed. however, nutrition therapy predates hippocrates who said "let food be thy medicine, and medicine be thy food".

    there are countless well documented cases of people reversing cancer simply by nutrition therapy. i happen to know one individual personally who, with terminal metastatic jaw cancer, was given less than 6 months to live. they advised that if she had radical surgery removing most of the lower portion of her face and and extensive chemo she may get up to 3 or 4 years. she refused and went the route of nutrition therapy. almost 20 years later she's still cancer free.

    nutrition therapy has also been shown to reverse coronary artery disease, gout, control diabetes, reverse and/or control many other maladies including neurological and psychological issues.
    Last edited by monogod; 03-08-2013 at 06:48 AM.
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    Humans are not born lactose intolerant, breast milk contains about 9% carbs in the form of lactose. Our enzymes are specific to our mothers breast milk though, through exposure to other items, we build up the necessary enzymes to break down "tolerate" other forms of milk. This not only happens with milk but just about everything else we eat as well, we are not born perfectly capable of consuming everything...that's what the human immune system is constantly, a work in progress and how eat is how it is formed. Your body will build in a immune system to tolerate your diet....that is unless your body has a specific genetic mechanism that does not tolerate a certain substance within the body.

    This is the basis for why when you quit eating a food for a while your body reacts differently the next time you consume it. I has quit producing the necessary enzymes to break it down. Keep eating it for a while and your body will readapt. It's has been this case with me in cutting wheat based carbs out of my diet. Much like milk, modern wheat pales in comparison to what it is actually supposed to be. The lining if our stomach(diverticuli,sp) are mechanically unable to absorb modern wheat.

    I am not making trying to make the case that we should consume milk, present day milk is far from actually being milk and I do not drink it myself. By I did grow up in WI where I drank about a gallon a week my whole life.

    PS. Did anyone else see they are lobbying the FDA to allow aspartame to be allowed in milk?? Lets get our kids hooked on sweets through the milk they drink at school at the age of 5 (now that choc. Milk is not allowed in a lot of schools).

    Now someone add another recipe.
    Last edited by LaXCarp; 03-08-2013 at 07:01 AM.

  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    with all due respect, is this a serious question???
    Since you asked with due respect, then my answer is yes, that was a serious question since you / somebody brought up comparison to primates, teeth structure, presence of features, I.D., etc. Evolution provides a long case history of what worked, what doesn't kill you, and why certain features are the way they are. But you don't want to go there. Fine.

    again with all due respect after reviewing the past week or so of this thread it seems rather clear that this discussion has NEVER been about evolutionary dietary adaptations but rather the premise that humans are (present tense, i.e. "modern") or are not functional construct (irrespective of origin of design) herbivores.
    Oh, well in that case, I would say that humans cannot be "functional construct herbivores" because (some, most?) herbivores can live their entire life eating only one thing, whereas humans require a "balanced vegan diet". Eat some rice and beans to make up for the protein you are not getting from eating meat. What does this show? Only that some some people can survive without eating meat.

    That a human digestive tract shows similarities to herbivores does not exclude the possibility that it is best suited for omnivore.

    That long ass article goes into detail on why humans are functional construct omnivores. In the time it took you to reply, you could not have read much of it at all, instead immediately calling it quackery. That doesn't sound very open minded at all. What claims does it make that are blatantly false?

    there are countless well documented cases of people reversing cancer simply by nutrition therapy.
    While there are many many maladies that can be fixed by "eating better", I'll have to wait for a controlled and peer-reviewed study in the case of cancer.

  30. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    Holy drama,ill try my best to get the conversation moving in a less cumbersome direction. I am not vegetarian but am becoming more of one the last couple years...no red meat, mainly fish and occasional chicken.

    Korean fried califlower:
    1/2 cup corn starch
    1/2 cup flour
    1/3 cup toasted sesame seeds
    1/3 cup unsweetened coconut
    1/2 cup cold water
    1/2 cup vodka(secret ingredient)

    Coat, shake, fry then smother in a sweet soy sauce, something like:
    1/2 cup soy sauce
    1/4 cup rice vinegar
    1/4 cup sweet cooking wine
    Honey
    Sriracha
    Scallions
    Simmer and reduce til thickened

    Tastes like Korean fried chicken!
    That sounds pretty tasty. Thanks for posting the recipe!
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  31. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    with all due respect, is this a serious question???
    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Since you asked with due respect, then my answer is yes, that was a serious question since you / somebody brought up comparison to primates, teeth structure, presence of features, I.D., etc. Evolution provides a long case history of what worked, what doesn't kill you, and why certain features are the way they are. But you don't want to go there. Fine.
    discussing the fact that the human's digestive tract is (current tense) designed (irrespective of by I.D., evolution, alien intervention, or the flying spaghetti monster) as a functional construct herbivore (i.e. presence of features/function) is hardly an opening to begin discussing the theory of evolution along with man's diet eons ago. in other words, irrespective of how man arrived at his current functional construct that construct is irrefutably that of an herbivore. an honest comparative anatomy investigation clearly illustrates this -- and we've only looked at the digestive tract. other comparisons also clearly classify humans as functional construct herbivores as well.

    dishonest science is ignoring clearly observed evidence and drawing a conclusion based on what one wants as an outcome rather than going strictly by facts in evidence. you've got an agenda that you need to meet so you're looking for any way to slant the evidence in that favor. but pure, objective, fact based comparative anatomy clearly and irrefutably places humans as functional construct herbivores. dishonest science is ignoring these facts to arrive at the pre-ordained conclusion one wishes to reach.

    further, looking into man's past is not synonymous with "evolution providing a long case history" of anything. it is nothing but pure assumption/conjecture that because fossils have been found evolution explains their origin. again, citing evolution as fact assumes facts not in evidence. evolution is not fact. doesn't matter how hard you want it to be or keep referring to it as fact.... it's just not. it doesn't even matter that there are other much more plausible, mathematically/statistically probable, anatomically/physiologically viable, and far more logical explanations for origin/diversity than evolution because evolution is not fact on it's own basis, lack of evidence/merit, and required assumptive foundational framework. where i'm trying not to go is a discussion on origin of life and diversity of species but you still keep pushing and pushing the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    again with all due respect after reviewing the past week or so of this thread it seems rather clear that this discussion has NEVER been about evolutionary dietary adaptations but rather the premise that humans are (present tense, i.e. "modern") or are not functional construct (irrespective of origin of design) herbivores.
    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Oh, well in that case, I would say that humans cannot be "functional construct herbivores" because (some, most?) herbivores can live their entire life eating only one thing, whereas humans require a "balanced vegan diet". Eat some rice and beans to make up for the protein you are not getting from eating meat. What does this show? Only that some some people can survive without eating meat.
    you're welcome to say that humans are not functional construct herbivores, but the evidence simply doesn't support your statement. you're free to say that the sun revolves around the earth, but the evidence offers just about as much support for that statement as well. in fact, you're free to say whatever you want and even if i disagree i will defend to the death your right to say it -- but we're not talking about opinion. instead we're talking about looking at the functional construct of every element of the human digestive tract from lips to anus, including down to the type saliva, and that evidence clearly classifies humans as functional construct herbivores.

    further, even if meat is included in the diet a human has to eat "a balanced and varied diet" rich in varied grains, fruits, veggies, greens, etc. for optimal nutrition. meat is not a nutritional panacea. the suggestion that the only way one can meet their nutritional needs is with meat is ludicrous and without merit. in fact, the opposite is quite true combined with the fact that the more meat one consumes there is a direct proportionate rise with both chance and occurrence of cancer.

    one doesn't eat rice and beans to "make up" for what they are not getting from meat. one eats beans and rice to get protein from sources their body is designed (irrespective of origin) to ingest. one can either get their protein needs met from beans and rice or meat. if one chooses beans and rice they miss out on all the lovely accouterments of meat such has higher cholesterol, increased risk/occurrence of cancer, heart disease, coronary artery disease, gout, and so on.

    one argument for eating meat is having the brains to know how to use tools and fire to hunt/kill/process/cook meat. conversely that same argument holds true that we have used our brains to learn that our bodies are designed as herbivores and we have learned about the nutritional content of foods that our bodies are designed to ingest/process and how to get complete nutrition from those foods without resorting to ingesting things our bodies are not designed to ingest/process. we have used our brains to discover that even infrequent ingestion of meat increases the risk/occurrence of cancer several fold.

    listen, if you want to eat meat then eat it. no one is telling you not to. eat it without guilt. it's your body, do with it what you want. but an honest look at comparative anatomy shows that in doing so you will be an elective omnivore rather than a designed one. the discussion is not what you want to do or what diet you or anyone elects to have. it's whether or not humans are herbivores from a functional construct and comparative anatomy standpoint. and that evidence is clear irrespective of the fact you refuse to acknowledge it and long for it not to be so.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    That a human digestive tract shows similarities to herbivores does not exclude the possibility that it is best suited for omnivore.
    you have thus far presented the grand sum of ZERO actual evidence to support that possibility and/or why despite the fact that the human digestive tract from lips to anus is irrefutably herbivore it should not be classified as such.

    i will absolutely be the first to agree that humans are ELECTIVE omnivores. but so are some primates (at a rate of about 2-3% non-plant material or 2-3 ounces out of every 6.25 lbs of food). so are many other types of functional construct herbivores in times of crisis/famine or when their survival depends on it. however, an organism (whether human or not) ELECTING to eat meat when it's functional construct is that of an herbivores does nothing to alter said construct in any way. it simply means it has CHOSEN to ingest something its digestive tract was not designed to process.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    That long ass article goes into detail on why humans are functional construct omnivores. In the time it took you to reply, you could not have read much of it at all, instead immediately calling it quackery. That doesn't sound very open minded at all. What claims does it make that are blatantly false?
    or it means i've had this discussion/debate before and have seen and read that article before. the article begins by presenting assumption/supposition as fact, draws concrete conclusions and bases foundational premises on conjecture, supposition, and facts not in evidence, and basically tries to offer an explanation of why humans, though clearly having an herbivore digestive tract from lips to anus, should be classified as omnivores rather than herbivores.

    as i previous said about it, i personally find it disingenuous that if such chicanery were attempted with any other clearly classified functional construct herbivore the author would be ridiculed, scorned to shame, and ostracized by being laughed out of the scientific community. only with the clearly herbivorous digestive tract of one animal is this kind of nonsensical pablum and drivel accepted as a quantitative refutation.... humans. hmmmmm..... why is that? disingenuous, dishonest, quackery, and hypocritical don't even begin to cover such a supposition/position.

    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    there are countless well documented cases of people reversing cancer simply by nutrition therapy.
    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    While there are many many maladies that can be fixed by "eating better", I'll have to wait for a controlled and peer-reviewed study in the case of cancer.
    dr. nicholas gonzalez conducted a study supervised the the national cancer institute and funded by nestle, the results of which were published in "Nutrition and Cancer" (a peer reviewed journal) and reported "the best results ever in the treatment of the disease". you wanted a case, theres one. and there are others exist as well.

    additionally there are many peer reviewed studies which show that the closer one moves to a plant based diet the more the risk and occurrence of cancer decreases and that vegetarian live longer and enjoy a better quality of life specifically in their latter years.

    the fact that you seem to be ignorant of nutrition therapy and think it equates to merely "eating better" does nothing to negate the fact that it has been used successfully for over a hundred years in modern medicine with outstanding success. nor does it remove the victory over cancer and cessation/reversal of disease process that lots of people enjoy yearly due to nutritional therapy.
    Last edited by monogod; 03-08-2013 at 02:26 PM.
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  32. #432
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    Who cares how prehistoric humans ate?

    Its 2013. You're not Tarzan. You're not chasing down prey all day and hauling it back to your village. You're driving your car to the grocery store to buy neatly packaged, factory farmed flesh harvested from unhealthy animals that were raised on unnatural diets.

    It's all a moot point, anyway. Let's all eat like people did during a time where the average life expectancy was 20 years. Sounds like a great idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Let's all eat like people did during a time where the average life expectancy was 20 years. Sounds like a great idea.
    I totally agree with your point about the irrelevance of the (presumably highly varied) paleolithic diet.

    But where'd you get 20 year life expectancy from?

    I think we mostly don't have any clue, especially for the earlier homos, but there are some very old specimens with evidence of arthritis....

    I've also heard arguments that agriculture and later industrialization led to some decreases in life expectancy as populations grew when harvests were good, but contracted sharply when crop or human disease came or when weather turned against them.

    North American people during the woodland period, for example, were less numerous but probably lived longer and were certainly much taller than their later mississipian period semi-agrarian descendants. But this is long after modern humans evolved.

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    Sorry, I was thinking about Neolithic life expectancy. After some research, upper paleolithic life expectancy is thought to be 33 years.

    I don't see the point of a man living in the year 2013 walking around thinking "what would a caveman do?" We have something called science now. We have ways of finding out what foods are good for you, and what foods are bad for you.

    Telling the fattest nation on the planet that eating a plate of fried sh*t for breakfast is "good for you" is just plain irresponsible. I see paleo cookbooks at the grocery store that have pictures of fried chicken on the cover. I don't believe the paleo diet is a good choice for already fit people who are concerned about long term wellness, either. Consuming copious amounts of cholesterol, saturated fat, trans fat (fried anything) and living in a perpetual state of ketosis is NOT a solution for long term wellness. It's a fad diet.

    On a side note, here is my delicious lunch before I head out for a ride today: Vegan lasagna, almond kale salad w/tamari, brown rice, and carrots sauteed with maple syrup and red pepper.
    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion-imag0080.jpg
    Last edited by ultraspontane; 03-18-2013 at 10:52 AM.

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    that's a good looking meal, ultaspontane.

    My 5 minute go to lunch for replacing $6 burritos that I used to buy daily:
    1 can of black or "refried" beans
    1/2 to 3/4 bag of mixed frozen vegetables
    a couple of spoonfuls of plain, full-fat yogurt
    chipotle peppers in adobo sauce or sriracha to taste

    I just microwave the whole shebang (yogurt added after cooking) for a couple of minutes and my $1.50 lunch is ready to eat. If I'm ambitious I throw in some cheese.
    prep time: 2 minutes
    cook time: 3 minutes

    I intend in the future to get back to cooking with dried beans, but thus far I have been too lazy/not planning sufficiently ahead.

  36. #436
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    I'm going to create a new diet based on the Roaring Twenties. I'm going to eat lots of meat, and food filled with untested chemicals. I'm going to drink tons of milk, and smoke like a chimney. I'll get my exercise by dancing and drinking heavily at the local speak easy. And I'll top it all off by driving home drunk, and beating my girlfriend.
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  37. #437
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    The roaring 20's led to a wonderful Wikipedia tangent I realized all I really knew about it centered around art and cultural movements, which were fabulous and quite important! Women's suffrage, to me, has always defined the 20's. Really, we could have done worse It was pretty much the cultural pivot to catch us up with what the industrial revolution had done for the economy and technology. An era that is defined by revolutionary ideas and positive cultural growth is hardly one to turn our noses up at. People were trying new things and being adventurous with their diets, which really is the spirit of being a vegan

    Dubthang, I think you are thinking of the 50's. I would more argue the 50's were the beginning of the modern, terrible American and European diets and lifestyles. World wars over, nuclear families and white collar jobs are emphasized, all centered around television and explosive growth in advertising. Artificial foods and TV dinners, convenience and mass produced consistency were key. No prep, freezer to oven, just add water to a box of chemicals, etc. No farming needed, fully stocked grocery stores everywhere and fridges and freezers in every house. Sedentary lifestyles were the norm, and even the lower class could afford to eat the dirt cheap factory farmed meat on a regular basis. Middle class exploded, so everyone had a car, horses were only seen on farms. Smoking was promoted on kid's cartoons. DuPont and other industrial companies were busy inventing massive amounts of new, caustic, and environmentally toxic chemicals and materials that we are still trying to clean up, phase out, and convince the EPA and USDA are dangerous. Drinking was banned in the US in the 20's, if you remember, so there was a cultural outlash against it. By the 50's, a 'good little woman' at home was expected to greet her husband with a martini, and never discuss how she got that black eye. Almost undid all the hard work of the women of the 20's trying to get equal rights and treatment for themselves.

    A diet based on the 20's would be an improvement over the average American diet, which has changed little since the 50's. Honestly, a Paleo diet, as ridiculous as it is, is still an improvement over the average modern one. It cuts out processed foods, at least I won't even touch Atkins, except to point out what most already know; Dr. Atkins died of a heart attack.

    Centered on commonly available modern foods, the "contemporary" Paleolithic diet consists mainly of fish, grass-fed pasture raised meats, eggs, vegetables, fruit, fungi, roots, and nuts, and excludes grains, legumes, dairy products, potatoes, refined salt, refined sugar, and processed oils.
    Which leads me to the point of my tangent (there is always one, I swear!) that perhaps the worst of the two evils (processed vs. meat) is, perhaps, processed? From what I have read and heard, it seems that a diet that is free from processed foods and chemicals is much better for us than one that is vegan, but full of processed foods.

    This is a good conversation of where I think some valuable information can be found, as to whether it is the lack of processed foods that brings the most benefit to a vegan lifestyle, or if it really is all about the lack of animal products? Inherently, vegans eat less processed food simply because it is not mainstream, more food needs to be cooked at home, and those companies that make vegan convenience foods are mostly not big companies who dump the same chemicals into everything they make. Obviously a lifestyle that lacks both meat AND processed foods is the best, but I can tell you that 90% of vegans still eat processed food. High fructose corn syrup, enriched white flour, hydrogenated oils, artificial sweeteners, dyes, chemical preservatives... all the worst offenders are all still vegan and found in most common items that are technically vegan. (I have heard many vegans talk about their favorite junk food, like Oreos, which are the epitome of processed horribleness, even if it is *technically* vegan)

    Are we doing more damage eating the processed food than the benefit we are gaining from not eating animal products? Should the focus be more towards getting people to stop eating processed food instead of how to sidestep animal products?

    Thoughts? Resources for more information?

  38. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    The roaring 20's led to a wonderful Wikipedia tangent ...
    Happy to create the lead. I fully agree that the 50's are way worse than the the 20's were. The 20's thing was more tongue in cheek than serious. The beginning of the 1900's was a time with plenty of experimentation with people's food and little solid research. We are still dealing with such a system, but I feel slightly safer with today's system... slightly.
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  39. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    I won't even touch Atkins, except to point out what most already know; Dr. Atkins died of a heart attack.
    complications from head trauma actually. it'd be a nice arrow to have in the quiver but at his family's direction no autopsy was performed to be able to know for sure. however, medical records requested by and accidentally sent to an anti-Atkins physician revealed he had a history of M.I., CHF, and HTN - all of which typically accompany the diet he promoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Which leads me to the point of my tangent (there is always one, I swear!) that perhaps the worst of the two evils (processed vs. meat) is, perhaps, processed? From what I have read and heard, it seems that a diet that is free from processed foods and chemicals is much better for us than one that is vegan, but full of processed foods.
    interesting query, but begs a couple of questions.

    • how much of the diet would be made up of animal flesh and by-products? main staple or infrequent addition (i.e. used <3x weekly).
    • organic free range meat? eating non-organic free range meat IS eating chemically/disease laden food no different that heavily processed foods.


    in order to eat animal flesh and by-products free of hormones, chemicals, disease, and GMO free one literally has to be as careful and fastidious about their diet as vegans generally are. i'd suggest that those kind of folks would generally avoid processed foods as well. be that as it may though, even infrequent ingestion of animal flesh and by-products carries with it increased risk of multiple cancers, heart disease, coronary artery disease, etc.; and although limiting to only organic/free-range would eliminate the chemcial/hormone component it will only slightly lower the risk of lifestyle diseases associated with their inclusion in the diet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    This is a good conversation of where I think some valuable information can be found, as to whether it is the lack of processed foods that brings the most benefit to a vegan lifestyle, or if it really is all about the lack of animal products?
    although you said "most" implying one over the other i'd say the answer is "both". as you mentioned one can eat oreos, doritos (a chemical soup marketed as food), white bread and enriched grain/rice products (nutritionally empty carbs), and soda and be vegan. however, most processed foods have animal products in them either as casein (a dairy protein directly related to insulin dependent diabetes), animal fat, some sort of cheese, etc. and is one reason vegans avoid them.

    are the chemicals in processed foods detrimental? certainly. but likewise detrimental is the cholesterol and fat, increased systemic acidity, lifestyle diseases, and autoimmune disorders related to animal flesh/by-product ingestion. so it's kind of like asking whether it's worse to fall from a 10th story balcony or a 12th story balcony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Obviously a lifestyle that lacks both meat AND processed foods is the best, but I can tell you that 90% of vegans still eat processed food. High fructose corn syrup, enriched white flour, hydrogenated oils, artificial sweeteners, dyes, chemical preservatives... all the worst offenders are all still vegan and found in most common items that are technically vegan. (I have heard many vegans talk about their favorite junk food, like Oreos, which are the epitome of processed horribleness, even if it is *technically* vegan)
    although you've made some great points i totally agree with i must say that i know a lot of vegans and in my experience the percentage that eat processed foods is around 5-8% (if that). vegetarians, however, are another story. most vegetarians i know eat lots of processed foods as they simply eschew animal flesh, but not their by-products, from their diet and are far less concerned about what they shovel down their gullets than are vegans. (not all, lest any vegetarians protest, but most that i have come across). which is interesting because technically a vegetarian is someone who doesn't eat ANY animal flesh/by-products (root of the word is "veg") and vegan used to mean someone that doesn't use ANY animal products like leather, etc. in addition to not consuming their flesh/by-products. but that's a whole other topic...

    i'm not saying you're wrong, as 90% of the vegans you know may very well consume processed foods. that's simply my observation resultant to over a decade of teaching health/nutrition/wellness seminars, my experience in the medical field, travelling all over the world, living in a major city with a large vegan population/culture (austin), along with knowing/interacting with lots of vegans. most vegans i know and have come into contact with avoid processed foods for the same reason they avoid animal flesh/by-products -- they're poison to the human body (as you mentioned).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Are we doing more damage eating the processed food than the benefit we are gaining from not eating animal products?
    again, in general that's like asking if it's worse to fall from a 10th story balcony or a 12th story balcony. both contribute to cancers, autoimmune disorders, cardiovascular, neurological, renal, and other systemic diseases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Should the focus be more towards getting people to stop eating processed food instead of how to sidestep animal products?
    comprehensive education on both to avoid falling from either balcony.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  40. #440
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    Anyone here listen to the Rich Roll podcast? If not, check it out. That also goes for all of you "plant-curious" folks out there, too. Look it up on iTunes or whatever podcast client you use.

  41. #441
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    How come all the meat eaters come over here just to pick fights?

  42. #442
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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
    How come all the meat eaters come over here just to pick fights?
    They feel the need to defend themselves even when not provoked. You see the same thing from atheists towards Christians. Ironic and childish.

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by trap121 View Post
    They feel the need to defend themselves even when not provoked. You see the same thing from atheists towards Christians. Ironic and childish.

    I think people like to defend the choices that they have made be it the type to bike they rider, their wheel size etc and their diet.
    Perhaps we should start a thread on the benefits of mostly eating meat and dairy. Obviously since so many people do it, it must have some merit!
    I have done a lot of research lately on diet and if you look at the facts, a plant based diet appears to be the best. Read the China Study.
    I talk to a lot of people and friends about diet and it is really surprising how clueless they are in regards to it. I don't think they choose to be clueless but they just look at what everyone else eats and it must be OK, right??
    I was on a bikepacking trip the last few days and we stopped into a restaurant to get breakfast. Big mistake. All I could order from the menu was 2 pieces of dry wheat toast and some hash-browns and that was the best food they had!! I looked at all the customers and the cooks and waitresses and they were all overweight, out of shape and had a layer of goo all around them. Are these people bad people? No but they are certainly ill informed on nutrition. I find it real hard to go to a restaurant anymore just because all their menu choices are so unhealthy.
    And then people get diabetes, cancer, heart disease and bad knees from being overweight, but they never look at what caused it. It is always woe is me. Doc, can you fix me up? And people wonder why health care and insurance is so expensive. It is like requiring everyone to drive at least 100MPH. Don't you think car crashes and claims would go up?
    I actually think it is good for meat eaters to look at this forum. If it turns a few people onto the real truth about nutrition then I think it is worth it.
    But you meat and diary consumers, bash all you want, but look in the mirror and do your own research on what is a healthy diet and what type of diet leads to a long healthful life. Initially it might be heck to change but once you do, you might never go back.
    Personally I don't care what you eat. It is you who should care about what you eat. I figure the more people that die the better. Too many people on this planet anyways!

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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion-imag0081.jpg

    Spinach, Chard, and Kale salad w/avocado and a simple balsamic vinegar and olive oil dressing. The greens come pre washed in a tub, simple and easy. One $3.99 tub gets me enough for 5 days of big salads.

  45. #445
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    That looks delish!
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    I think I'll have that for dinner! ^^^

  47. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubthang View Post
    I'm going to create a new diet based on the Roaring Twenties. I'm going to eat lots of meat, and food filled with untested chemicals. I'm going to drink tons of milk, and smoke like a chimney. I'll get my exercise by dancing and drinking heavily at the local speak easy. And I'll top it all off by driving home drunk, and beating my girlfriend.

    pretty much sums up the vegan haters out there. I used to be a redneck though. I woke up when I went vegan. Its like a light switch when you pump your body so full of plant food nutrition something changes inside.

  48. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by durianrider View Post
    pretty much sums up the vegan haters out there. I used to be a redneck though. I woke up when I went vegan. Its like a light switch when you pump your body so full of plant food nutrition something changes inside.
    My point wasn't to 'sum up the vegan haters,' but to make a joke about all the diet/lifestyle movements out there. Anybody with an idea can turn it into a lifestyle whether it is right or wrong in the eyes of others. I've been a vegetarian for 17 years. Doesn't mean that my lifestyle is the correct one. It's simply the way I choose to live my life. The trick is getting everybody else to put down their stones, and except other people's differences.
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  49. #449
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    Re: Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    Quote Originally Posted by dubthang View Post
    My point wasn't to 'sum up the vegan haters,' but to make a joke about all the diet/lifestyle movements out there. Anybody with an idea can turn it into a lifestyle whether it is right or wrong in the eyes of others. I've been a vegetarian for 17 years. Doesn't mean that my lifestyle is the correct one. It's simply the way I choose to live my life. The trick is getting everybody else to put down their stones, and except other people's differences.
    I think he was referring to the paleo-flavored vegan haters out there.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    I think he was referring to the paleo-flavored vegan haters out there.


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    I understand that. Generalizing them into a group makes us no better than the others that don't understand and/or make fun.

    Plus, most of the paleo folks that I know are just as passionate and understanding of their lifestyle as we are of ours.
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    Re: Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    I'm not so sure I agree with you in thinking Durianrider made some kind of damaging statement. I understood what he was trying to say, and I happen to agree with him. He never said all paleo folks are vegan haters, as you seem to be asserting.

    Also, I'm a big fan of proselytizing. Be it religion, politics, diet, whatever. Everyone should be able to throw their hat into the ring. If you believe in something, stake your claim. Don't tiptoe around on eggshells for the sake of political correctness. What do you believe? Is science on your side? Let's hear it.



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    Last edited by ultraspontane; 03-26-2013 at 10:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    I'm not so sure I agree with you in thinking Durianrider made some kind of damaging statement. I understood what he was trying to say, and I happen to agree with him. He never said all paleo folks are vegan haters, as you seem to be asserting.

    Also, I'm a big fan of proselytizing. Be it religion, politics, diet, whatever. Everyone should be able to throw their hat into the ring. If you believe in something, stake your claim. Don't tiptoe around on eggshells for the sake of political correctness. What do you believe? Is science on your side? Let's hear it.
    I don't think he made a damaging statement per say... I was just trying to keep this thread on track since it was my comment that was quoted to make a point. I am partly to blame for the derailment too.
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    Yes
    Last edited by Z4good; 04-02-2013 at 07:49 PM.

  54. #454
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    Eggplant parm recipe. This was sent to me by one of my paleo leaning buddies. I used quinoa flour instead of the almond flour. It was pretty tasty.


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    Re: Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    ^ I have no idea what that tastes like, but it looks delish! I'd have to find a substitute for the parmesan cheese, though.

    I really do need better cooking chops...

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  56. #456
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    You can make a pretty tasty cheese sauce with soy products (margarine and milk,) add in nutritional yeast, cashews, and flour. Not in that order though. Make it like one would make a regular sauce starting with a roux.
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  57. #457
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    Anyone have any ideas for homemade vegan sports drink mixes? Or energy bars for racing?

  58. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
    Anyone have any ideas for homemade vegan sports drink mixes? Or energy bars for racing?
    No Meat Athlete | Vegetarian Running and Fitness

    Tons of awesome vegan recipes on there. The author of that site has been turning raw over the last year or two so most of the newer articles include raw options but the older recipes arent necessarily raw.

  59. #459
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    Vegos n vegans are sick people in more ways than one
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  60. #460
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    Thanks for the reply GTscoob! That is a great site!

  61. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    ^ I have no idea what that tastes like, but it looks delish! I'd have to find a substitute for the parmesan cheese, though.

    I really do need better cooking chops...

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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion





    Also, this is my favorite place to browse recipes: Welcome to VegWeb.com | The World's Largest Collection of Vegetarian Recipes They have reviews as well, so you can get some tips on any tweaks, as well as whether or not the recipe is even any good! Tons of recipes, and quite an active community leaving reviews. Use the search function, trust me. WAY too many tasty recipes to browse through


    Oh, and whatever you do, DO NOT LOOK AT THIS SITE! -----> vegan | TasteSpotting
    You will be drooling on your keyboard for hours, most likely feeling the future pounds pack on as you declare 'MUST. MAKE. EVERYTHING!!111!!'


    You're welcome.

  62. #462
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    At first I didn't hate vegans. Until they started messing with what I eat.

  63. #463
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    I didn't mess with what you eat, and I'm not going out of my way to talk smack on a veggie passion thread.

  64. #464
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    Thug Kitchen







    Plenty more of those on the thugkitchen site.

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    Nature's butter, *****. Best line ever.
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  66. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion





    Also, this is my favorite place to browse recipes: Welcome to VegWeb.com | The World's Largest Collection of Vegetarian Recipes They have reviews as well, so you can get some tips on any tweaks, as well as whether or not the recipe is even any good! Tons of recipes, and quite an active community leaving reviews. Use the search function, trust me. WAY too many tasty recipes to browse through


    Oh, and whatever you do, DO NOT LOOK AT THIS SITE! -----> vegan | TasteSpotting
    You will be drooling on your keyboard for hours, most likely feeling the future pounds pack on as you declare 'MUST. MAKE. EVERYTHING!!111!!'


    You're welcome.
    Also, if anyone is near a bookstore or their amazon.com account, I've been enthralled with the veganomicon. I like these paper cookbook thingys...

  67. #467
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    OMFG YES!

    The Veganomicon!! I have it too! I forgot to mention it!

    BUY IT. Every single recipe is full of win and awesome. Really, really good stuff in there, lots of variety for all tastes, tips and tricks, tons of info and pages to explore!

  68. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    OMFG YES!

    The Veganomicon!! I have it too! I forgot to mention it!

    BUY IT. Every single recipe is full of win and awesome. Really, really good stuff in there, lots of variety for all tastes, tips and tricks, tons of info and pages to explore!
    So, did you just have an "O" while posting?

  69. #469
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    *hides the zucchini and whistles innocently*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    *hides the zucchini and whistles innocently*
    You didn't put that back at the supermarket, did you?

  71. #471
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    I used it today when cooking at work.

    They say the best tasting food is made with love!! <3!!

    So everyone remember to put lots of love in your cooking and ingredients, including a garden! Your cooking will be THE BEST tasting and health-wise when you know exactly what is in it, and worked hard to put lots of love into every part of it!

  72. #472
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    I recently found out I had IBS so I've switched to being fully vegan and gluten-free.

    I'm no stranger to extreme diets (I've done a 22 day juice fast in the past, it was an incredible experience), and I was already contemplating going vegetarian, so it hasn't been hard for me at all.

    It really just forces you to be more thoughtful about what you eat and prepare more meals for yourself. Learning how to cook is never a bad thing.

    I've been on the diet for a few weeks now and I'm very slowly starting to see symptoms subside. Definitely going to stick with this as a lifelong dietary commitment!

  73. #473
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    lollllll repped the dude who posted the Thug Kitchen link

    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion-tumblr_mjl3p5vkrk1r4qrdyo4_1280.jpg

  74. #474
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    ^^^^
    Really? It only sucks when people drag it down. Congrats on adding to the suck factor.

    Time to counter the suck with some more Thug Kitchen.
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  75. #475
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    Fun commercial.

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/60045795" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/60045795">Silk Milk</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/cinemascott">CINEMA SCOTT</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
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  76. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Fun commercial.

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/60045795" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/60045795">Silk Milk</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/cinemascott">CINEMA SCOTT</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
    Lol. "He's got some serious nuts."

    "Almonds!"

    In my opinion soy milk tastes the best (Silk), coconut milk is pretty good (So Delicious), and I'm not really a fan of almond milk (Silk).

  77. #477
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    I find uses for each type of milk. As a reference, I found hemp milk to be the thickest and creamiest, and rice to be the thinnest. Soy is fairly thick, almond is in the middle. Westsoy is awful, spend the extra few cents for something better. Trader joe's house brand of all milks is comparable to the high end stuff. It is also the cheapest (actually, westsoy is a few cents less, but not worth it). Blends seem to be popular right now, but I am not crazy about any of them. Coconut milks, which seem to be different than the full-fat cream stuff in cans, has hit the market in the last year or so. Thicker than rice, thinner than almond. I like it for cereal! Tried it in baking, a bit too thin. Great for asian cooking, however, when you want to make a low-fat version of something that calls for the coconut milk cream. Adds flavor without all the oil. A bit of dehydrated coconut makes it perfect!

    Luckily, all of the milks are shelf-stable, so I keep as full of variety as i can find on hand at all times. And, if a disaster strikes, I have nutritionally complete meals on the shelf that require no prep, have a large chunk of water requirements, and enough of it to last at least a couple weeks. **** spam, these milk-alternatives should be lining the shelves of bunkers and being sent in MREs!

  78. #478
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    I can't say I'm 100% vegetarian but my gf is and I eat about 90% veg (even on my own) so am I allowed on this thread? :P

    A really good resource for recipes and such is nomeatathlete.com

    A favorite recipe of mine is Portobello Philly "Cheese Steaks"

    Slice up some large portobello mushrooms and saute them in oil.
    Slice up onions, peppers and saute in oil, after about 2min add choice of hot sauce, soy, worcestershire, etc. Add mushrooms to onions and peppers and saute for another 5min.

    Place mixture on roll with cheese and enjoy.

    (You can not use Worcestershire and use daiya instead of real cheese if you are full vegan)

  79. #479
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    Just a heads up about worcestershire sauce... it isn't technically vegetarian. It has anchovy paste in it! There are vegan alternatives out there, though I honestly don't know what they are called.

  80. #480
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    Showdown Kale vs Spinach: Which is healthier?

    I love both but since I discovered kale a few years ago, I am leaning toward kale. Found this easy read article that confirms my preference. But nutritionally they are both aces!

    Kale vs Spinach: Which Is Healthier?

    "Verdict: While kale is a better source for some essential vitamins and minerals — including manganese, copper, calcium, and vitamins A, C, B6, and K — spinach is a richer source of folate and an equally good source of iron and fibre. And both foods are very healthy choices! Kale might have the edge here, but spinach is no slouch."
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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    Kale chips with nooch FTW!!!

  82. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by N1kk0 View Post
    Kale chips with nooch FTW!!!
    Love dem Kale chips!

    "Nooch:
    Nutritional yeast, the pungent yellow vitamin B-12-filled flakes loved by vegans everywhere. It tastes delicious in cheezy sauces and many other dishes. The term "nooch" was coined by the PPK.


    Oh no, I'm out of nooch! However will I make macaroni and cheeze?" Urban Dictionary
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  83. #483
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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Love dem Kale chips!

    "Nooch:
    Nutritional yeast, the pungent yellow vitamin B-12-filled flakes loved by vegans everywhere. It tastes delicious in cheezy sauces and many other dishes. The term "nooch" was coined by the PPK.


    Oh no, I'm out of nooch! However will I make macaroni and cheeze?" Urban Dictionary
    Spot on!!

  84. #484
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    Yeah kale chips are awesome.

    My sister is a vegan, used to be raw only. She is raising her 3 yo son as a vegan, it seems to be working. But you can always spot the vegans -- the long drawn out look, droopy skin. I was semi vegetarian for a while up until earlier this year, not eating a lot of animal products, but a little bit. I saw the same skeleton emerging in my face so now I've upped my animal protein intake -- I eat an organic free range egg every day and also some organic whey powder. Still eat lots of the good plant products too.

  85. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    you can always spot the vegans -- the long drawn out look, droopy skin.
    or not.

    i certainly don't fit that bill, nor do most any of the vegans i know.

    that being said i'll certainly concede that many vegans do look that way. however, the only vegans i know that look like concentration camp surviors are those ignorant on proper diet.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  86. #486
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    Ya maybe I just don't notice the vegans that don't look like that... You have to do veganism properly, or you risk malnourishment. It can be done, though.

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    You should try spotting me sometime? I'm the one lifting the most weight at my gym and with the best legs

  88. #488
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    So I recently committed to being vegan/vegetarian 100%. Researched it a bunch from sites like No Meat Athlete and looked a lot into Brendan Brazier's stuff and I feel like I got a pretty good handle on what I need to eat and all that.

    I gotta say, it is better than expected. I decided to go vegan for environmental reasons and I didn't really think I'd see much benefit physically because I ate pretty healthy before. But I am 2.5 weeks into a serious training block and I do not feel worn down at all. I'm not sore. I can tell I worked out but the aches and pains I usually got are not there. And I'm well rested. I'm recovering great and I can hit every workout really hard which is awesome.

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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    But you can always spot the vegans -- the long drawn out look, droopy skin.
    Hahaha, I have literally NEVER met anyone who looked like that in the 5 plus years I've been vegan. That sounds more like a heroin addict

  90. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by N1kk0 View Post
    Hahaha, I have literally NEVER met anyone who looked like that in the 5 plus years I've been vegan. That sounds more like a heroin addict
    rofl!
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Soysauges, Fakon (Meatless Bacon), Veggie Burgers, etc

    Vegetarians and Vegans going through the transition from meat eater to Vegan/Vegetarian usually want familiar tasting foods.. And some people crave the taist but would rather have a healthier substitute...

  92. #492
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    Thought I'd share dinner from a couple nights ago. First let me start of by admitting I'm an apple whore, a total addict if you will.

    We started with a sliced up Braeburn apple and maybe a teaspoon of sunflower oil in the pan. Saute for a couple minutes.

    Then add a good (1) tablespoon plus of honey and let the apples begin to caramelize.

    Once they're caramelized, remove the pan from the heat and add 1 tablespoon and a half of red/white wine vinegar, a couple (2) teaspoons of whole grain mustard and another (1) tablespoon of oil. Stir the apples around to get all the ingredients to mix and let cool slightly.

    Serve slightly warm over dark greens (we used spinach), toasted walnuts and crumbles of blue cheese.
    The cake is a lie.

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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    That sounds really good!

  94. #494
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    Vegan Mango Milkshake

  95. #495
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    you need a vita-mix!
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  96. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    you need a vita-mix!
    lol I thought that blender was going to blow chunks!

    The frozen mango is a good idea
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    This has got to be one of my favorite recipes. Quick easy and the leftovers are amazing. The other recipes on this site are pretty top notch too.

    Hawaiian Beans and Rice Recipe | No Meat Athlete

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    Re: Vegetarian and Vegan Passion

    Anyone else notice that they seem to recover from hard exercise significantly faster after they switched to a plant based diet?

  99. #499
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    Yeah definitely. And I don't think it's a placebo effect because I made the switch more for environmental reasons. I felt I was eating healthy before (and I was) but I absolutely don't feel that chronic aching I did before I switched.

  100. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    Anyone else notice that they seem to recover from hard exercise significantly faster after they switched to a plant based diet?
    No, I recover from hard exercise better if I make sure to meet my daily requirement of x grams of protein per y pounds of body weight. Although I feel a general weakness if I don't have enough vegetables over a long period of time.

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