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  1. #401
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    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

    While our digestive tract might look just like an herbivore, our frontal teeth are shaped for ripping and tearing into flesh. Pretty good evolution to be able to survive on eating whatever is most readily available.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf View Post
    Adding more fuel to the fire. I have been vegetarian for over 12 years now. No meat, chicken fish etc. BUT I did eat a lot of cheese, milk, eggs and I love ice cream to no end! BUT I am going more "radical" in my diet now that I have spent some time researching diet.
    From what I have been reading we don't need that much protein in our diet. Our biggest problem is too much protein and protein affects our kidneys lowers our calcium levels and produces cancer.
    People are herbivores based upon their bodies, mouths, teeth and long intestinal track. Our long intestinal track filled with meat is not natural. It is designed to digest fruits and vegetables.
    People take calcium supplements but a new study has come out to say it is not effective. It appears that it is not effective because of the excess protein most people take in is stripping our bodies of calcium.
    The lowest lived people are those that consume a lot of meat like Eskimos. The longest lived people are those who are on a diet mostly of vegetables and fruit.
    Back in 1976 when queried one of the heads of a cancer institute said that diet probably contributed towards 50 percent of cancers. When asked why only 1% of his funding was going towards nutrition, he said I often wonder about that (or something to that effect) Too much money is going to be left on the table if they find a cure for cancer, which given our diet they will probably never do.
    Even given my imperfect diet to date, I hardly ever get sick unlike when I used to eat meat. I would get a cold that would leave me hacking for a month or more.
    I lost an eye to cancer around 30 years ago so I know what a bummer it is to get cancer.

    Here is a pretty good link on vegetarianism and vegan-ism including some recipes!
    This link I am giving you speaks about how doctors generally know little about nutrition and life expectancy of people with different diets.
    http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/books/...a.html#doctors
    great post! looks like you're well on your way to a healthier lifestyle and the benefits that follow.

    as for the "war on cancer", well, that will never be won by mainstream medicine. the truth is that it's already been won long ago as we've known about a cancer cure for over 100 years of "modern society" and even longer than that in general (think hippocrates). however, there is no money in prevention and non-pharmacological/surgical cures. people don't want to be told that eating "x" or "y" will kill or seriously cripple them. for that matter look at smoking -- it's widely known that smoking is deadly yet look how many people still do it. it's the old "lead the horse to water..." syndrome.

    diet is directly related to most every cancer, that is both known and freely admitted by modern medicine. however, what is interesting is that there is pretty much ZERO emphasis on prevention. medical school is about pharmacology/surgery. most of nursing school is pharmacology. the entire medical industry is geared toward reactionary measures rather than prevention.

    there will not be an appreciable decrease in cancer rates until people take it upon themselves to deny themselves of things which, though they may find tasty, will ultimately directly kill them. the interesting thing is that the longer one doesn't eat these things the more one loses their taste for them and most eventually find repulsive smelling/tasting.

    "let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food" ~ hippocrates
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

    While our digestive tract might look just like an herbivore, our frontal teeth are shaped for ripping and tearing into flesh. Pretty good evolution to be able to survive on eating whatever is most readily available.
    i not only whole-heartedly agree with tyson's statement but use it frequently in discussions on this topic. however, the statement in bold is based wholly in opinion rather than science or fact as human incisors (frontal teeth) are poorly designed/evolved/equipped for tearing into flesh yet are perfect for cutting through fruits/vegetables/foliage. they are broad, flat, and spade shaped akin to other herbivores and noticeably unlike carnivores.

    human incisors:



    pop quiz! perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell us which they most closely resemble:

    A:


    B:


    C:


    D:
    Last edited by monogod; 02-27-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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  4. #404
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    Saw this, and thought of this thread.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Vegetarian and Vegan Passion-48143_337243989709104_355171147_n.jpg  


  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    i not only whole-heartedly agree with tyson's statement but use it frequently in discussions on this topic. however, the statement in bold is based wholly in opinion rather than science or fact as human incisors (frontal teeth) are poorly designed/evolved/equipped for tearing into flesh yet are perfect for cutting through fruits/vegetables/foliage. they are broad, flat, and spade shaped akin to other herbivores and noticeably unlike carnivores.

    human incisors:



    pop quiz! perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell us which they most closely resemble:

    A:


    B:


    C:


    D:

    HA! Couldent have said it better!

  6. #406
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    Name:  6a013486f52e0b970c0134878d137a970c-800wi.jpg
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    Vegetarian and Vegan Passion-pongo-pygmaeus-orang-utan-16.jpg

    Just sayin'. Apes eat bugs too, fwiw, and a bit of meat from small prey. The vast, vast majority of diet is plant material and bugs, either way.

    EAT MOAR BUGS!

    *shudders*

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Just sayin'. Apes eat bugs too, fwiw, and a bit of meat from small prey. The vast, vast majority of diet is plant material and bugs, either way.

    EAT MOAR BUGS!

    *shudders*
    posting pictures/info of functional construct/design herbivores that are at times elective carnivores has pretty much zero relevance to the comparative anatomy of herbivores to carnivores.

    just sayin'....
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  8. #408
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    Hey, Mono, wipe those lead paint chips off your shoulder. The teeth of primates more closely resemble ours than either horses or dogs, so I belive it is most relevant to the conversation.

    If we are using the diets of animals with comparative teeth as a talking point, perhaps it would be more honest to the conversation to use a closer relative to humans than extreme examples, hmmm?

    We were built to forage, if the conversation is turning towards anatomy. Most foraging involves picking through plant material. When droughts and winter come through, foragers have to get a bit more clever. Hence, bugs and small game. I am no primate expert, but they may also just enjoy the taste as well. We certainly are guilty of following our tongues first.

    But the point still remains... we are equipped with the ability to process meat because we are meant to have the option to eat it on occasion. Culture has turned gluttonous due to our clever brains figuring out how we can ALWAYS be eating the best tasting stuff instead of simply what we need to live.

    Vegan is what we are meant to be. But a bbq every once in a while is also completely healthy and normal. No need for militancy in this, you scare away all the vegan curious if you try to tell them they can NEVER EVER EVER have bubbas famous pulled pork again. They just can't eat it every day if they want to be healthy and see the benefits of veganism.

  9. #409
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    There is a good article in the latest Nat. Geo. about bonobos (cousin to the chimp.) It talks quite a bit about their diet, and their addition of the occasional animal protein.

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Hey, Mono, wipe those lead paint chips off your shoulder. The teeth of primates more closely resemble ours than either horses or dogs, so I belive it is most relevant to the conversation.
    hey maya, if i respond by insulting you will that be ok or will you cry foul like you did the last time i responded to your insults with insults?

    you do realize that the "pop quiz" comparison was in response to the suggestion that human incisors are designed to cut and tear flesh, right? so ANY herbivore incisor would have sufficed. additionally, the dogs incisors are dissimilar to humans rather than similar to them. that was the whole point.

    ape incisors are no more similar in design/construct to humans than are horses. however, the reason examples from the ape family weren't included is the first response is usually something along the lines of "but some primates eat non plant matter so they're not herbivores". thus, by not using apes it avoids having to reiterate that apes, like humans, are functional construct herbivores and sometimes apes, like humans, are elective omnivores.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemaya
    If we are using the diets of animals with comparative teeth as a talking point, perhaps it would be more honest to the conversation to use a closer relative to humans than extreme examples, hmmm?
    since we're discussing comparative anatomy of functional construct herbivores with functional construct carnivores maybe it was entirely honest to actually compare the differences between the two classes, hmmmmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemaya
    But the point still remains... we are equipped with the ability to process meat because we are meant to have the option to eat it on occasion.
    "able" to process it and "designed/evolved" to process it are two wholly mutually exclusive things, and is a poor argument for equipped/designed/evolved to process it. just because the human machine is so incredibly designed (irrespective of the method) that it is able to process materials it is not designed to ingest is hardly "proof" meat should be included in the diet. studies have shown that even infrequent meat ingestion (i.e. 3-4x weekly) increases the risk of many types of cancers.

    so really the point that remains is -- "able" to? yes. "properly equipped/designed/evolved" to? absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemaya
    Vegan is what we are meant to be....
    yup!

    Quote Originally Posted by bikemaya
    you scare away all the vegan curious if you try to tell them they can NEVER EVER EVER have bubbas famous pulled pork again.
    wow... a red herring AND a strawman all rolled into one!

    for one thing, how would it scare away the "vegan curious" when they are curious about a diet that DOESN'T INCLUDE MEAT?!?!?!? unless the "vegan curious" is profoundly ignorant of what the word "vegan" means they already know a vegan diet doesn't include bubba's famous pulled pork.

    for another, no one is telling anyone what they can or can't eat. in fact, i even provided bacon recipes in a similar discussion on this topic.

    just sayin'...
    Last edited by monogod; 03-04-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by xgjokax View Post
    I don't know how I never checked out this part of the forums before!

    Just wanted to chime in...
    I've been vegan for over 15 years and veg for even longer.

    If anyone needs any recipes or has questions then please drop me a line.
    start a thread on it and kick us off with a good one. there's been other interest expressed in such a topic as well.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Okay all you fellow hippies, check in here. Share recipes and other BS, tree-hugger stuff - ethical cycling gear (non-skin) perhaps?

    By the way, do I still get to be part of the club if I'm a strict vegetarian (for ethical reasons) yet have a gun collection and a proud member of the NRA?
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  13. #413
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    You see, I am not a black and white kinda gal. So, when two extremes are used to make a point, I tend to want to narrow things in to make a much more accurate point instead of broad, sweeping ones.

    Human teeth are actually quite different from horse teeth as well. One of the BIGGEST differences seemed to be left out of the picture of human teeth that was posted, which is the cuspids! I often hear people say that these canines are 'proof' that we are meant to be carnivores. A quick googling of horse teeth revealed to me that horses also have canines. I learned that these are believed to be used for fighting, which based on their location and the fact horses do, in fact, bite to fight, makes sense. Horses have canines, but they aren't carnivores, are they? So a broad statement like canines= meat is simply not true! In the same sense, saying incisors= plants would be incorrect, as many carnivores have them. They come in as many different sizes for different functions as canines. Ours, for example, are meant for soft plant matter, and are unable to rip and tear stuff a horse could.

    However, it is unclear why primates have canines, though there certainly are theories. Based on mouth size, humans clearly did not evolve to bite as a primary defense mechanism (ha! Tell Mike Tyson that!). The canines in humans and primates, as far as science can tell, are the ripping and tearing type and not the fighting or 'look at how big and sexxy my teeths are' type.


    An interesting article on this issue
    goes through a number of the Pliocene hominids, who are found between the split from the apes and before the **** hominids. It basically shows the flexibility of the species that began with teeth seemingly meant for only chewing stuff that was soft or brittle. No branches, but plenty of flowers, nuts, and BUGS! They definitely did not appear to be the kind that could tear into flesh and meat, and even fruit came along later in the evolution. A nice little summery of how this relates to the conversation on teeth:

    However, as shown by the work of Lucas and colleagues (39), variations in tooth size are a means of adapting to changes in the external characteristics of foods, such as their size, shape, and abrasiveness. Clearly, some of these food characteristics were changing during the evolution of the earliest hominids, as postcanine teeth became relatively larger and larger. However, evidence from the middle to late Miocene shows that tooth size, by itself, cannot pinpoint the initial change to a hominid diet, at least not with the samples at hand.
    And, the conclusion, which addresses the burning question of 'But what about MEAT?!'

    Another important aspect of early hominid trophic adaptations is evident from data presented here—the dietary shift from apes to early hominids did not involve an increase in the consumption of tough foods, and so the australopithecines were not preadapted for eating meat. This conclusion runs counter to (i) recent isotope work suggesting that the australopithecines did in fact consume significant amounts of meat (7) and (ii) nutritional work suggesting that meat may have provided critical nutrients for both young and old hominids (77–79). There would seem to be three different ways to reconcile these perspectives. First, the present study has reviewed only craniodental features related to diet. If the australopithecines used other means for ingesting and processing meat (e.g., tools), they might have been able to process meat more efficiently than the craniodental evidence suggests (80, 81). Second, the heavy C3 signature found in A. africanus (7) may reflect the consumption of underground storage organs of C3 plants rather than meat (82). Third, the functional analyses of the teeth assume that all meat has the same degree of toughness. This may not be the case. Studies of the physical properties of food have thus far focused on plant remains, with only brief mention of the toughness of materials like skin (40, 46). Variations in toughness between animal tissues might well be due to variations in the arrangement and density of collagen matrix. Furthermore, the physical effects of decomposition might render meat less tough and more readily processed by hominids. If this is so, it could be further evidence in support of scavenging as part of the early hominid way of life.

    Investigators have tried to relate patterns of hominid evolution to patterns of climatic change for some time (3, 4). The focus of much of the recent work has been on the origin of the genus ****. Can the dietary shifts in the earliest hominids also be tied to such changes? Whereas there is some evidence of large-scale climatic changes around the Mediterranean (83) and unusual faunal turnover in parts of western Asia (84), there are no large-scale changes evident in sub-Saharan Africa until after the earliest hominids have arrived on the scene (i.e., not until 1.5–2.5 million years ago). There is the slow and inexorable cooling and drying of the Miocene, but perhaps the crucial result of this was an increase in microhabitat variability. Certainly, there are limits to our paleoecological evidence from this period, but as Potts (4) has noted, “in general, the oldest hominids were associated with a diverse range of habitats.” These included lake and river margins, woodland, bushland, and savanna. Potts (4) has emphasized that locomotor versatility was a crucial adaptation of the earliest hominids in the face of such varied environmental conditions. We feel that this perspective needs to be extended to the dietary adaptations of the earliest hominids as well. In such a land of variable opportunities, the generalized craniodental toolkit of the earliest hominids may have had a distinct advantage, as it allowed our forbears the flexibility to cope with short-term and long-term climatic variations and the resultant changes in resource availability.
    The work referenced that suggests early hominids were eating meat before they were using tools can be found here. This research led to conclusions that meat helped the brain to evolve rapidly, leading to very clever creatures that eventually figured out how to make tools and fire.

    From all of this, what I am seeing is that hominid brains evolved faster than their physiology. It seems that there was a point where our brains were evolving much more quickly than the rest of our bodies, which didn't give the teeth a chance to catch up! Our earliest ancestors primarily ate vegan diets with bugs, but this changed in a short period of time when we became clever enough to use tools to get ahead instead of waiting for evolution to catch up. It has been suggested that the diet change assisted by the use of tools (ie, heavy consumption of Brontosaurus ribs ) rapidly increased the rate of evolution of the brain (so Fred Flintstone could watch TV!). Once our brains began to evolve, there no longer was a need for certain traits to be as highly selective as before, since what was currently equipped was still working just fine with the help of tools. Stone tools and fire meant we could eat foods our teeth would otherwise not be able to process. We already had teeth than were meant for a fairly diverse and adaptable diet, so it wasn't like trying to feed a steak to a horse or an apple to a dog. Those are extreme examples, and our teeth fall somewhere in the middle, just like primates'. Without advanced tool use (though basic tools, like sticks, allow them to eat bugs!) and fire, primates are unable to really eat much meat, even though their teeth are very similar to ours.

    So, in regards to what kind of diet our teeth support? Anything, honestly If you take our clever brains out of the equation, we are talking nuts, soft leaves, fruits, bugs, and anything bite-sized. The articles seem to be unsure about the raw meat and game chewing abilities of species that came directly before tool-using hominids due to lack of enough fossils. This will change eventually But what they DO know is that the fossil record seems to indicate that early branches all had different plant-based diets.

    Until there is a bit more to the fossil record, I would say it is best to stick to what we DO know; personal experience. Cause, gawd, being vegetarian and vegan makes people feel awesome One of those things where you feel it for yourself instead of trying to pick through the fossil record to find an answer. Modern nutritional evidence supports the health benefits of a balanced vegan/ vegetarian diet (no french fry vegans, come on!), where we use our clever brains to properly balance our nutrients instead of merely hacking up and burning every critter we get our hands on


    ETA: The **** is the forum censoring the shortened name for H. Erectus, which is also a not nice slang for folks who like others of the same gender


    More recipes when I get some downtime, Monzie! I have some I can flip through or suggestions I can make if you are craving something in particular

  14. #414
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    Frontal teeth!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    You see, I am not a black and white kinda gal. So, when two extremes are used to make a point, I tend to want to narrow things in to make a much more accurate point instead of broad, sweeping ones.
    they weren't "broad sweeping" extremes.

    perhaps in your haste to argue you missed the fact that the "pop quiz" made a very accurate point as it was a rather narrow comparison of FRONTAL TEETH design/shape/function between functional construct herbivores and functional construct carnivores.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Human teeth are actually quite different from horse teeth as well.
    human incisors: broad, flat, spade shaped.
    equine incisors: broad, flat, spade shaped.

    hmmmmm..... no, seems the FRONTAL TEETH of a human and horse are not quite different after all.

    perhaps in your haste to argue you completely missed both the original and restated point that it was specifically the FRONTAL TEETH that were being compared in the pop quiz in response to a statement about FRONTAL TEETH. the comparison was also not meant to contrast or compare human/equine in general but rather to contrast and compare herbivore/carnivore FRONTAL TEETH shape/design/function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    One of the BIGGEST differences seemed to be left out of the picture of human teeth that was posted, which is the cuspids!
    that's because we were talking about FRONTAL TEETH!

    seriously, you would have saved yourself a lot of searching, typing, and arguing had you actually read the quote in bold that post #404 both quoted and was in response to. in reading that ENTIRE post it is quite clear that the pop quiz pictures were in response to the following statement: "our frontal teeth are shaped for ripping and tearing into flesh" rather than a generalized comment/comparison between equine oral/dental structure and human's. i went to far as to directly point out that it was "incisors (frontal teeth)" that were being compared in the pictures. (hint: the post was clearly and unmistakably talking about and referring to FRONTAL TEETH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    So a broad statement like canines= meat is simply not true! In the same sense, saying incisors= plants would be incorrect, as many carnivores have them.
    you're jousting windmills, don quixote, as no one has made either argument!

    canine, incisor, cuspid, molar, etc are used to denote PLACEMENT rather than FUNCTION. it is the SHAPE of the incisor which typically denotes function and differs between functional construct herbivores/carnivores, and THAT is what was being discussed. you are retorting points and rebutting positions no one other than yourself has made.

    herbivore incisors: flat, broad, spade shaped, generally abutted against each other.
    carnivore incisors: narrow, pointed, prong-like, sometimes serrated, and discretely spaced to avoid trapping stringy debris.

    this is what the pop quiz pictures illustrated and were meant to compare.... FRONTAL TEETH. that's why all three pictures of functional construct carnivores in the pop quiz very prominently showcased their FRONTAL TEETH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    They [incisors] come in as many different sizes for different functions as canines. Ours, for example, are meant for soft plant matter, and are unable to rip and tear stuff a horse could.
    that's simply incorrect. our incisors allow us to rip and tear the same type of stuff a horse can because they are similarly shaped (broad, flat, spade shaped). the difference is in the strength of the jaw musculature which is what allows horses to rip into thicker plant material (a whole cantaloupe, watermelon rinds, etc.) that we cannot.

    however, we can do the exact same thing to plant matter (hard or soft) as can a horse - just on a smaller scale. take carrots or apples for example. humans can bite into hard plant matter with our broad, flat, spade shaped incisors and rip/tear chunks off to grind into a pulp with our wide, flat molars and side to side jaw action.

    as for the expository monologue on evolution i'll not even address or retort -- for the simple reason that if someone suggested (and provided supporting examples) that there is less basis and evidence (both circumstantial and objective) to support long, gradual, undirected evolution than there is to support functional intelligent design you'd blow a gasket and start ranting and raving about "sky daddy" because someone dared exercise the same latitude to discuss their position regarding organic origin (i.e. evolution vs. I.D.) that you feel you're entitled to have.

    tsk, tsk, tsk... disingenuous to say the least.
    Last edited by monogod; 03-05-2013 at 09:42 AM.
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  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dion
    Dion View Post
    Okay all you fellow hippies, check in here. Share recipes and other BS, tree-hugger stuff - ethical cycling gear (non-skin) perhaps?

    By the way, do I still get to be part of the club if I'm a strict vegetarian (for ethical reasons) yet have a gun collection and a proud member of the NRA?
    ...
    jah.... i know that was the first post in the thread but it has meandered, ebbed, and flowed into various things requiring digging for recipes posted.

    was kinda referring more to a thread specifically titled "vegan recipes" (or something of the sort) to be devoid of side topics.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  16. #416
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    Are you two married to each other?
    I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I just hate vegetables.

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    this thread, as of late, has too much passionate jargon throwing for my taste. pseudo academic palaver of the panajandrum, self-styled philosopher monogod is tiring, ad hominem, and hypocritical.
    Spoiler alert: non-gluten free recipe below.
    But I can still share our new-found and beloved bread recipe: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html
    There are many variations. It's amazing that we're now making bread at home that tastes as good as the stuff we used to buy from a local baker.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    although i may say whatever i want in the derogatory/confrontational/condemnatory manner i choose in public forums i refuse to allow anyone else such latitude -- and if they do so and/or i'm disagreed with i'll get all butthurt and respond solely with ad-homs.

    But I can still share our new-found and beloved bread recipe: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html
    There are many variations. It's amazing that we're now making bread at home that tastes as good as the stuff we used to buy from a local baker.
    FIFY

    all jesting aside though, the bread recipe looks not only tasty but also like a great starting point for lots of variations.

    in the spirit of olive branch reciprocity (pun intended) here's one of my faves:

    rosemary olive bread

    2 TBSP instant yeast
    2 cups water
    2 cups unbleached flour
    2 cups whole wheat flour
    4 TBSP olive oil
    2 TBSP ground flax
    1 tsp salt
    1 TBSP dried rosemary (more or less according to your preference) i tend to use a bit more because i LOVE rosemary.
    1 cup sliced olives (or more according to your preference) i tend to use 1.5-2 cups because, like rosemary, the more the better!

    mix all ingredients in a large bowl with a mixer for 5 minutes or knead by hand for 10 mins. i generally use my bread maker on knead mode.

    cover and let rise in bowl in a warm place until it doubles in size (or more). i usually let it rise for an hour or two but not more than that because then it starts to ferment and smell like beer...

    after it rises, form it into rolls, braid it into a loaf or set it in a bread pan(s). make sure to grease whatever pan you bake it in. bake @ 350 for 25 minutes or so or until a toothpick inserted in the middle comes out clean.

    p.s. did it even slightly occur to you that the palaver would've been unnecessary had a certain respondent more thoroughly grasped/comprehended posts they were responding to?
    p.p.s. interesting that you condemn he who responds with clarification to posts rife with errant response and full of rebuttals to self-styled and erected strawmen yet give a pass to they who instigated/engaged/trolled for argument.
    p.p.p.s. you misspelled "panjandrum"
    Last edited by monogod; 03-05-2013 at 10:05 PM.
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  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orthoguy View Post
    Are you two married to each other?
    not yet.... but we're madly in love!
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  20. #420
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    Ok, just for my favorite kinky, horny, holiday sweater-wearing ferret, a recipe And! It is CHEAP. Most stuff you already have in your pantry, the rest is cheap and will last you.

    This is actually a recipe inspired by one from work It wasn't *meant* to be vegan, it just happens to be so! I make it, on average, once a week, and in six gallon batches. I will attempt to convert this into a more reasonable size from memory (my recipes are kept at work), but I eye everything anyways Everything can be adjusted to taste! If you like spicy, add some of that garlic chili sauce. Yum!

    Asian salad dressing (I know, original, huh?)

    Ok, ok... ummm...

    Honey Sesame Peanut Ginger Asian Dressing *giggles* Yield: about 1.5 cups

    4oz Rice vinegar
    1 tbsp smooth peanut butter (If you use the plain unsalted, unsweetened stuff, adjust the recipe to add a bit more honey and a dash of salt)
    1/2 oz fresh, or 1/2 tbsp dried powder ginger
    2 tbsp soy sauce
    1 tsp minced garlic
    1.5 tsp wasabi powder (the fake stuff that is basically green powdered horseradish. If you have the real stuff, go REALLY easy unless you like hot )
    2.5 tsp mustard powder
    3.5 oz honey (I think it is only a few tablespoons. 1 cup weighs well over 8oz, but I have never measured it)
    salt to taste

    Blend all these ingredients together thoroughly. Very, very slowly add, while blender or food processor is running:

    16oz vegetable oil mixed with 1.5 tbsp sesame oil.

    It should take you a good 5 minutes to add the oil if you do it right. Nice and slow to get the emulsification right, and get a nice, creamy texture!



    Now, how to serve it? Over salad!

    Freshly shredded cabbage
    handful of romaine lettuce
    shredded carrots
    scallions
    Vegan wonton wrappers, cut into 1/2" strips, and fried (optional, but I suggest you don't skip it cause they are super yummy! They freeze well so you can use the package again.)
    canned mandarin oranges, drained
    roasted cashews, roughly chopped

    Optional:
    favorite chicken substitute, such as fried tofu or (my favorite) Quorn Naked Cutlets. The salad doesn't really need these for flavor, it is for stuff like more energy before a race The Quorn Naked Cutlets are EXPENSIVE, but really good!


    The dressing is freaking awesome and goes good on a spoon too

    Enjoy!

  21. #421
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    Holy drama,ill try my best to get the conversation moving in a less cumbersome direction. I am not vegetarian but am becoming more of one the last couple years...no red meat, mainly fish and occasional chicken.

    Korean fried califlower:
    1/2 cup corn starch
    1/2 cup flour
    1/3 cup toasted sesame seeds
    1/3 cup unsweetened coconut
    1/2 cup cold water
    1/2 cup vodka(secret ingredient)

    Coat, shake, fry then smother in a sweet soy sauce, something like:
    1/2 cup soy sauce
    1/4 cup rice vinegar
    1/4 cup sweet cooking wine
    Honey
    Sriracha
    Scallions
    Simmer and reduce til thickened

    Tastes like Korean fried chicken!

  22. #422
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    Honestly, if I had known ape teeth were such a controversial topic, I never would have brought them up. I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation. I found it pretty rude that a topic i found interesting was shot down before anyone had a chance to talk about it. Ignoring the drama and doing the research myself just seemed to kill the conversation altogether. Boo. :/

    It's something i hear meat supporters bring up quite often, the purpose of our canines, so it seemed a direction the conversation would eventually take when one came by to bring it up. (You know, right after the hundredth person came by to say vegans taste like chicken. Harhar.) I had often wondered about them myself, which is why it interested me. We can always look at our closest living relatives, chimps and orangutans (I think orangutans are the other closest related, but I couldn't remember for sure. Dubthang mentioned Bonobos, which may have been the one I meant!) for clues to lots of questions we have about ourselves. They usually are a good starting point to answers, so it seemed a good way to start the conversation about canines and their meat-eating function! I always think that the more informed we are, the better case we can make for meat-free lifestyles, ya know? Anyways, I just did the research myself, and posted my findings and conclusions I drew. Hope someone can dig through the mess and find something interesting like I did. *shrug*

    I'm done with teeth now too, I guess. I never intended to debate them, just wanted to learn some more about them by picking some other's brains. So it's best to move on, hmm?

    So, how about poop? It's all about the poop, they say! But, less specifically, metabolism as a whole.

    Now, I have heard this, but not confirmed if it's true; humans are born lactose intolerant, and only with repeated exposure to dairy in our regular diet do we lose the sensitivity. When I was vegan, I would have a bit of ice cream or a grilled cheese once in a while when I was craving them. After months with no dairy, they made me feel pretty icky. Loose bowels and such (but worth it!). I figured, at the time, it was the sugar of the ice cream that did it (I am sensitive to lots of sugar) and the grease of the cheese when I had been eating so low fat. Later, when I heard about the lactose intolerance, I thought that might have been the actual cause! I still eat barely any dairy, except my two weaknesses of cheese and ice cream I cook with non dairy stuff, and only keep that on hand. Take soy in my coffee or drink it black. I really cant stand milk any more! Hate eggs, but have recently gotten into plain fat free greek yogurt for a gentle on the tummy and healthy breakfast. Despite eating so little dairy, I have no problems with yogurt.

    People have also brought up, but not really elaborated on, human's ability to process meat. Is there research on it? Raw food advocates also say that burning meat-- and any food, for that matter, introduces carcinogenics that are toxic. If this is true, why dont our liver and kidneys takes care of it? Or, do they, and it isn't something to worry about?

    And, finally, our body's ability to form complete proteins WITHOUT the need for meat! This is essential for a healthy vegan and vegetarian lifestyle! Vegans and vegetarians need to know how to combine foods in order to get complete proteins from them. I am a bit tired and have very little free time, so perhaps someone has the handy charts and information they can post here to help out those who don't know how to do it?

    That should be a good start to get the talk going!

    I apologize in advance if any of these topics rub anyone the wrong way. Feel free to ignore them so we can keep the conversation moving forward and informative My PM box is always open <3

    Oh, and post moar recipes for Monzie. He's hungry

  23. #423
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    People who are interested in how humans evolved to digest meat and make it a large part of their diet can read Ch. 8 "Why eat like a caveman?" in Paleo Diet for Athletes. Dr Cordain has done a lot of research on the diet of ancient humans and their evolution. The short version is that teeth doesn't matter that much because we use tools and fire. We were not designed or evolved to eat plants only due to our body's poor ability to synthesize taurine and 20-carbon fatty acids, essential nutrients that are only present in meats. Our digestive tract is too short to be fully herbivorous. (We can get away with it these days because fruits and vegetables have been bred to be softer and sweeter. We can also eat "enriched" bread, a product of the industrial revolution.)

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Honestly, if I had known ape teeth were such a controversial topic, I never would have brought them up. I thought they were interesting enough to add to the conversation. I found it pretty rude that a topic i found interesting was shot down before anyone had a chance to talk about it. Ignoring the drama and doing the research myself just seemed to kill the conversation altogether. Boo. :/
    you made some good points and asked some great questions. i'll respond to both your "drama" comments and your actual/factual questions and comments, and will invest far more to actual/factual than drama content. but let's start with the actual/factual first.

    ape teeth aren't a controversial topic and you know it. yes, you are 100% correct that ape teeth are functional design herbivore as are humans and no one argued that or shot that down. yes you are 100% correct that like humans some apes are elective omnivores. however, the non-plant material in the ape's diet is around 2-3% which is SUBSTANTIALLY lower than most human elective carnivores.

    to put this in perspective, 3% non-plant matter in the diet is the equivalent of 3 ounces out of every 6.25 pounds of food being non-plant matter!!! and that takes into account ALL animal based foods, both flesh AND byproducts! to further put that into perspective that is a 2 ounce meat patty with 1 ounce of cheese for every 6.25 pounds of fruits, grains, veggies, legumes, nuts, seeds, berries, and greens.

    per the drama:

    come on maya, if ya wanna get along we can get along and if you wanna squabble we can squabble. i'm totally cool with either way you want it to go. but either way (and i say this with love rather than aggression) quit playing the victim. not only is it factually disingenuous but you're better than that and it's beneath you. specifically, while post #404 (my initial response to you) was not rude some might find your opening comment in post #409 to be rude, unprovoked, and begging for conflict and debate yet you hold yourself out as doing nothing but asking an innocent question and subsequently being savagely victimized verbally. you decry the drama yet pretty much initiated it! let's put the cards on the table and call all that what it is... bovine excrement! that's like poking a beehive and then crying, playing the victim, and blaming the bees when you get stung. just sayin'....

    the pop quiz was a retort to "human front teeth are designed to rip/tear meat", to which you replied with a non-sequitur. given the way you've engaged me in the past and the tone of both your initial ape teeth post and it's immediate follow up you can hardly claim it would be unreasonable to see them as inflammatory and confrontational. if you recall you've blatantly (and even proudly) admitted in the past that you enjoy trolling me for arguments and i somewhat suspected from the initial post in which you engaged me that you might be doing so again. but it's a topic i enjoy discussing so i figured "what the hey", either way some good points will be brought out and it's not as though i don't mind a spirited debate from time to time either (nor do you, and we both know it).

    so no, it's not that ape teeth are a controversial topic or that your interesting topic got "shot down". rather, you engaged with insults and by arguing and rebutting points and positions that no one but you was making. (i.e. strawmen) and no, i didn't mind the insult nor did it hurt my feelings. i'm just tired of people wanting to play rough and be snarky and then crying like a little poof when it's reciprocated.

    not trying to point fingers or keep track of points, just helping to keep the facts straight and avoid the revisionist history being constructed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    It's something i hear meat supporters bring up quite often, the purpose of our canines, so it seemed a direction the conversation would eventually take when one came by to bring it up. (You know, right after the hundredth person came by to say vegans taste like chicken. Harhar.) I had often wondered about them myself, which is why it interested me.
    the simplest answer to meat supporters that bring up canines is that "canine" simply denotes placement rather than function. for example, both herbivores and carnivores have molars but they are very different in construct and function.

    also, some functional construct herbivores (certain primates, for example) have very long canines but they are for display/defense/tools rather than tearing meat. we know this because the rest of their GI tract is 100% herbivore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    We can always look at our closest living relatives, chimps and orangutans (I think orangutans are the other closest related, but I couldn't remember for sure. Dubthang mentioned Bonobos, which may have been the one I meant!) for clues to lots of questions we have about ourselves. They usually are a good starting point to answers, so it seemed a good way to start the conversation about canines and their meat-eating function!
    chimps are the closest to humans but they are not necessarily our relatives. such a suppositionary conclusion is based on facts not in evidence. it's equally, perhaps even more so, possible (along with irrefutably more probable mathematically) that they are simply a similarly designed species rather than a precursory ancestor resultant to blind random chance. but that's another discussion all its own...

    that being said, when looking to classify humans as either functional construct herbivores/carnivores and in specific how to deal with the "canine teeth" issue i would suggest it's not necessary or even substantially beneficial to confine the investigation merely to other primates. "canine" simply indicates placement rather than function. it is the shape of the canine tooth along with taxonomic features of the rest of the digestive tract which more accurately defines function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    I always think that the more informed we are, the better case we can make for meat-free lifestyles, ya know? Anyways, I just did the research myself, and posted my findings and conclusions I drew. Hope someone can dig through the mess and find something interesting like I did. *shrug*

    I'm done with teeth now too, I guess. I never intended to debate them, just wanted to learn some more about them by picking some other's brains. So it's best to move on, hmm?
    move on? no need at all. if you wish to discuss teeth then let's discuss them. in fact, i'll post some comparative anatomy of functional construct herbivore/carnivore teeth and GI tract below.

    but there may be some that might suggest the best way to pick people's brains is with with civil engagement and questions rather than contradictory challenges, strawmen, red herrings, and insults. not scolding you, my dear... just offering a friendly suggestion if your desire was truly to discuss and learn vs. engage and argue. but hey, even if you just wanted to argue that's ok too... just don't try to pretend it was something it wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    So, how about poop? It's all about the poop, they say! But, less specifically, metabolism as a whole.
    poop, you say? just so happens there's a thread for that!

    from a metabolism aspect humans lack the anatomical, chemical, and biophysical construct/ability to properly digest and assimilate meat. see the comparative anatomy below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Now, I have heard this, but not confirmed if it's true; humans are born lactose intolerant, and only with repeated exposure to dairy in our regular diet do we lose the sensitivity.
    that is absolutely correct regarding adverse reaction to dairy from birth, but has to do with the proteins in cow's milk as well. and the symptoms you related after going dairy free are very common for other that go dairy free or have never or seldom consumed it as well. once weened off of breast milk dairy shouldn't be introduced into the body again.

    milk consumption, for example, has been proven to leads to insulin dependent diabetes. why? the body sees the casein protein in milk as an antigen and will set up antibodies to combat/destroy it. however, this milk protein is very similar to the beta cells in the islets of Langerhans in the pancreas that produce insulin and amylin. similar enough that the antibodies the body produces in response to the casein protein will then frequently have an autoimmune response to the beta cells in pancreas and destroy them -- and along with them the body's ability to produce insulin. this is not theory, this is a well documented finding supported by decades of research.

    the scary thing is this is not new information, it's information that the dairy industry spends millions upon millions yearly to suppress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    People have also brought up, but not really elaborated on, human's ability to process meat. Is there research on it? Raw food advocates also say that burning meat-- and any food, for that matter, introduces carcinogenics that are toxic. If this is true, why dont our liver and kidneys takes care of it? Or, do they, and it isn't something to worry about?
    human's ability to process meat? it's "able" to do so but very inefficiently and with great taxation on the body if repetitively burdened with this task.

    heating most any food above 117 degrees begins to destroy enzymes and other micronutrients contained within. this is why raw is ultimately best. however, cooking meat does form carcinogens, and burning it even more so.

    the liver and kidneys are poorly equipped to handle and detoxify this load, just as the cardiovascular is ill equipped to handle the cholesterol and other insulting agents introduced into it via ingesting meat. most cancers are lifestyle related. most GI cancers, for example, are a direct result of high meat intake with vegans very rarely developing them. studies have also shown that even infrequent meat consumption of 3-4x weekly increases the risk of many cancers other than merely GI such as breast cancer.

    cancer has been reversed and cured for over 100 years by simply going to a complete vegetarian diet. this is also rather well documented but information that is suppressed by the meat and dairy industry similar to how the tobacco companies for decades were able to hide the fact that smoking caused lung cancer. heck, doctors used to RECOMMEND cigarettes to improve asthma. even after it was known to cause cancer tobacco companies marketed it with doctors (winston: "more doctors smoke winston than any other brand") and even used the flintstones and beverly hillbillies to sell their ciggies. there are old black and white commercials from each show in which fred, wilma, granny, and jed are shown smoking cigarettes. even old tom and jerry and looney tunes showed characters smoking.

    the point being that it is a well known and documented fact that alternative cures to cancer exist that don't require radical surgery and radiating the body. it is well known that most cancers are completely lifestyle/diet related, and that vegans seldom develop cancer. there are cancer cells in our bodies every day. this is not a problem as long as our immune systems can lyse them. it is only when our immune system is compromised by our lifestyle that cancer gains a hold in the body -- and this is why cancers are regularly beaten with nutrition therapy.

    so any research done on it? plenty. additionally, here's a bit of comparative anatomy:

    • jaw joint location: carnivore - same plane as molar teeth; herbivore - above plane of molars; human - above plane of molars
    • jaw motion: carnivore - shearing with minimal side to side motion; herbivore - little to no shear, good side to side and front to back; human - little to no shear, good side to side and front to back
    • major jaw muscles: carnivore - temporalis; herbivore - masseter and pterygoids; human - masseter and pterygoids
    • mouth opening vs. head size: carnivore - large; herbivore - small; human - small
    • teeth (incisrors): carnivore - short and pointed; herbivore - broad, flattened, spade shaped; human - broad, flattened, spade shaped
    • teeth (canine): carnivore - long, sharp, curved; herbivore - dull and short (long in some for defense), or none; human: short and blunted
    • teeth (molars): carnivore - sharp, jagged, blade shaped; herbivore - flattened with cusps vs. complex surface; humans - flattened with nodular cusps
    • chewing: carnivore - little to none necessary, swallows food whole; herbivore - extensive chewing necessary; human - extensive chewing necessary
    • saliva: carnivore - no digestive enzymes; herbivore - carbohydrate digesting enzymes; human - carbohydrate digesting enzymes
    • stomach acidity: carnivore - less than or equal to pH of 1 with food; herbivore - pH of 4 to 5 with food; human - pH of 4 to 5 with food
    • stomach capacity: 60-70% of digestive tract's total volume; herbivore - less than 30% of digestive tract's total volume; human - 21-27% of digestive tract's total volume
    • small intestine length: carnivore - 3 to 6 times body length; herbivore - 10 to 12+ times body length; human - 10 times body length
    • colon: carnivore - simple, short, smooth; herbivore - long, complex, may be sacculated; human - long, sacculated
    • liver: carnivore - can detoxify vit. A from animal meat; herbivore - can't detox vit. A from animal meat; human - can't detox vit. A from animal meat
    • kidney: carnivore - extremely concentrated urine; herbivore - moderately concentrated urine; human - moderately concentrated urine


    so clearly the human GI tract is horribly equipped to properly process not only the meat itself but also the extraction of nutrients and processing of toxins/wastes resultant to its ingestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    And, finally, our body's ability to form complete proteins WITHOUT the need for meat! This is essential for a healthy vegan and vegetarian lifestyle! Vegans and vegetarians need to know how to combine foods in order to get complete proteins from them. I am a bit tired and have very little free time, so perhaps someone has the handy charts and information they can post here to help out those who don't know how to do it?

    That should be a good start to get the talk going!
    well, the body doesn't actually form complete proteins with or without meat.

    protein is essential for many bodily functions and processes. it is used to build/repair tissue, make enzymes, hormones, and other chemicals as well as being an important basic building block for muscles, bones, skin, blood, and cartilage.

    however, protein is made up of amino acids. while the body manufactures 12 of them another 9, called essential amino acids, must be obtained from our food. so a "complete protein" is one that contains all of the essential amino acids rather than something that is produced by the body irrespective of one's diet.

    it is a complete myth that one needs meat to obtain complete proteins. while all animal proteins do contain all essential amino acids, as discussed previously the body is ill equipped to process/extract them and there is significant detriment that accompanies the ingesting of both animal flesh and by-products (i.e. dairy).

    many plants offer complete protein such as soy, spirulina, buckwheat, teff, amaranth, and quinoa. (just to name a few. corn too, but organic rather than GMO) further, many plant foods can be combined to make complete proteins such as beans and rice or corn. beans and grains (hummus and pita bread). beans and seeds/nuts like pasta and beans, nut butter on whole grain bread, tortillas with refried beans, split pea soup with whole grain bread, and veggie burgers on whole grain bread for a few examples.

    additionally, they don't have to be combined at the same meal to be effectively assimilated by the body. eat rice with one meal and beans with the next and you have a complete protein. in fact, you can spread this combination over a 2 day period and still get the complete protein.

    so basically as long as one is eating a nicely varied plant based diet of grains, legumes, seeds, nuts, greens, fruits, and veggies one cannot help but meet the body's need for complete protein.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya
    Oh, and post moar recipes for Monzie. He's hungry
    monzie was actually reposting the very first post from this thread (in response to me suggesting someone create a recipe specific thread) rather than trolling for recipes. not sayin' he's not hungry, mind you... just sayin'. (i.e. a friendly poke)

    see? it's not so hard to play nicey-nice and have a civil discussion... is it?
    Last edited by monogod; 03-08-2013 at 07:27 AM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  25. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    People who are interested in some guy's theory of how humans might have evolved to digest meat and make it a large part of their diet can read Ch. 8 "Why eat like a caveman?" in Paleo Diet for Athletes.
    fify

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Dr Cordain has done a lot of research on the diet of ancient humans and their evolution.
    which is totally irrelevant. if modern man makes animal flesh and by-products a large part of their diet they will more likely than not develop one or more of the following: heart disease, various cancers, stroke, gout, and diabetes -- just to name a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    The short version is that teeth doesn't matter that much because we use tools and fire.
    teeth are but one component of the big picture. "tools and fire" is a poor and wholly inadequate/irrelevant response to, and hardly negate, the extensive and comprehensive comparative anatomy below.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    We were not designed or evolved to eat plants only
    that's simply not true. humans are irrefutably functional construct/design herbivores from lips to anus:

    • jaw joint location: carnivore - same plane as molar teeth; herbivore - above plane of molars; human - above plane of molars
    • jaw motion: carnivore - shearing with minimal side to side motion; herbivore - little to no shear, good side to side and front to back; human - little to no shear, good side to side and front to back
    • major jaw muscles: carnivore - temporalis; herbivore - masseter and pterygoids; human - masseter and pterygoids
    • mouth opening vs. head size: carnivore - large; herbivore - small; human - small
    • teeth (incisrors): carnivore - short and pointed; herbivore - broad, flattened, spade shaped; human - broad, flattened, spade shaped
    • teeth (canine): carnivore - long, sharp, curved; herbivore - dull and short (long in some for defense), or none; human: short and blunted
    • teeth (molars): carnivore - sharp, jagged, blade shaped; herbivore - flattened with cusps vs. complex surface; humans - flattened with nodular cusps
    • chewing: carnivore - little to none necessary, swallows food whole; herbivore - extensive chewing necessary; human - extensive chewing necessary
    • saliva: carnivore - no digestive enzymes; herbivore - carbohydrate digesting enzymes; human - carbohydrate digesting enzymes
    • stomach acidity: carnivore - less than or equal to pH of 1 with food; herbivore - pH of 4 to 5 with food; human - pH of 4 to 5 with food
    • stomach capacity: 60-70% of digestive tract's total volume; herbivore - less than 30% of digestive tract's total volume; human - 21-27% of digestive tract's total volume
    • small intestine length: carnivore - 3 to 6 times body length; herbivore - 10 to 12+ times body length; human - 10 times body length
    • colon: carnivore - simple, short, smooth; herbivore - long, complex, may be sacculated; human - long, sacculated
    • liver: carnivore - can detoxify vit. A from animal meat; herbivore - can't detox vit. A from animal meat; human - can't detox vit. A from animal meat
    • kidney: carnivore - extremely concentrated urine; herbivore - moderately concentrated urine; human - moderately concentrated urine


    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    We were not designed or evolved to eat plants only due to our body's poor ability to synthesize taurine
    again, simply not true. taurine is a non-essential amino acid which can be derived from food or synthesized from the amino acid cysteine when adequate levels of vitamin B6 are present. when one eats a varied and balanced vegan diet they will not suffer from taurine deficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    We were not designed or evolved to eat plants only due to our body's poor ability to synthesize... 20-carbon fatty acids
    yet again, simply not true. the two polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) that the body can't make are linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid. these must be provided by one's diet and are abundant in a well balanced vegan diet. both of these can be converted within the body to other PUFAs such as arachidonic acid, or eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Our digestive tract is too short to be fully herbivorous.
    and yet again, simply not true as can be clearly seen above.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    We can also eat "enriched" bread, a product of the industrial revolution.)
    we can also shoot cocaine, another product of the industrial revolution. but that doesn't make it good for us.

    diametrically opposed to whole grain breads the "enriched" breads are a nutritionally empty "food" which provides no soluble or insoluble fiber, is pretty much empty bad carbs, turns to sugar quickly and spikes blood glucose, and once in the stomach basically becomes more or less the same stuff you made paper mache with as a kid.

    in short, it's a nutritionally void highly processed food-like product that should be avoided at all costs.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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