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  1. #1
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    riding on ketogenic diet - who's doing it?

    The purpose of this isn't to explain a keto diet but there is a plethora of information out there for those that are interested. To give a quick summary it is basically what atkins diet was derived from. Mainly fats and protein, very few carbs (~20g a day net. Ymmv)
    Your body may go through a crash period for a couple days a little ways into it where you feel sick and lethargic but after you break your reliance on carbs you feel great

    Anyway i have done this off and on for a little over a year. The first time i lost 20 lbs and 4 percent body fat in a month with no working out, all while eating cheese and bacon. Even better was the fact that i had more energy than i have had since i was a kid and i didnt really get hungry ever.

    Now, it is not usually recommended to do high intensity cardio on these diets for a few reasons. I wont get into it but rather will share my experience. Last year i did quite a bit of riding using strava and what i found was exactly what i thought. Most of the time on this diet i was faster. There were a few times that i was freakishly fast before but also days that i was a slug. Keto diet gave me consistency.


    Meaning on my road rides instead of going from 16 on a crappy day, 17.5 average and 19 on a perfect day, i was between 17.5 and 18 every day. The only downside that i found was that my energy reserves were not quite as good for sprinting, climbing difficult hills etc. All in all it was a good tradeoff though. Also sometimes while eating normally i get almost violently hungry while i ride. Like i would fight someone for food. Not so on the diet

    Anyway, the purpose of this thread was to see what others experiences were with this and maybe encourage a few others to research it and give it a shot. Im back on it and feel better than i ever did eating carbs.

  2. #2
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    No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
    No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.

    +1 LOL Good Fing luck... High Carb/Low Fat will get you ripped and fast on a bike.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
    No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.
    Actually atkins didnt die of heart disease but rather as a result of a fall he had, thats a common rumor though

    I felt the same way until i tried the diet, but using ketones for fuel gives much more consistency. I have as much energy now as i did when i was 16, where as before i had ups and downs no matter what. Its hard to put into words the effect it has but the additional energy is very noticeable

  5. #5
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    I thought ketones were a by product of breaking down fat stores to supply energy in the form of ATP, rather than the actual source of the energy.

  6. #6
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    According to the book "Paleo Diet for Athletes", you should increase your carb intake before and after an event.

  7. #7
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    A keto diet is prescribed in certain medical conditions, most notably epilepsy and certain cancers. It is altering your body chemistry, In those specific medical conditions, altering the chemistry is the point, part of the treatment, and the patient remains under a doctor's care.

    People without specific medical conditions should not routinely go keto. Very few people remain on these fad diets very long, so no major harm will be done. In a few months most people will slip back into a normal (healthier) eating pattern.

    Since 1920 an estimated 23,000 fad diet books have been written. Not one has withstood the test of time and proven effective in the long run.
    So many trails... so little time...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
    No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.
    One of the most ignorant comments that can be found on MTBR. Good job.

  9. #9
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    No the fad diets are the definition of ignorant.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
    No the fad diets are the definition of ignorant.
    Fad, unhealthy, and unsustainable.
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  11. #11
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    I don't think his comment was 100% ignorant. What is the point of low carbs anyway? Are carbs the ennemi?

    Training or practicing whatever endurance sport on a very low carb diet is just a bad idea. There are way too many body functions running on carbs. Carbs supports training adaptations, immune function and performance overall.

    Experts recently stated it quite clearly, any endurance athlete wishing to perform should rely on carbohydrates before, during and after training. There is hardly any way you will come around this very simple fact.

  12. #12
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    "What is the point of low carbs anyway? Are carbs the ennemi?"

    Not universally, but in many cases they are. More directly put, high glycemic index carbs and fructose are absolutely the "ennemi". Frutose is literally a poison.

    "Training or practicing whatever endurance sport on a very low carb diet is just a bad idea."

    Don't know where this "training ... endurance sport" business came from, but you're displaying the same ignorance as others are.

    "There are way too many body functions running on carbs. Carbs supports training adaptations, immune function and performance overall."

    Your body doesn't run directly on carbs and there are NO essential carbs. Oxygen supports "training adaptations, immune function and performance overall", as do fats and proteins. What you have said is meaningless.

    "Experts recently stated it quite clearly, any endurance athlete wishing to perform should rely on carbohydrates before, during and after training. There is hardly any way you will come around this very simple fact."

    Since when did this become about "endurance athletes" and when did you get to choose the "experts"? This thread is about riding on a low-carb diet, not about performing at the very highest levels on one.

    Low carb diets aren't a fad except to the uninformed.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    "What is the point of low carbs anyway? Are carbs the ennemi?"

    Not universally, but in many cases they are. More directly put, high glycemic index carbs and fructose are absolutely the "ennemi". Fructose is literally a poison.


    Your body doesn't run directly on carbs and there are NO essential carbs. Oxygen supports "training adaptations, immune function and performance overall", as do fats and proteins. What you have said is meaningless.


    .
    "Fructose or Fruit Sugar is ONLY a problem when Fat content is high. Fat blocks the wall of the veins and arteries. This causes high blood sugar levels. So no, Fructose by it self is not a poison." Dr. Graham

    "Adenosine Triphosphate and Gluclose work directly with one another. So without SUGAR there is very little intracellular energy transfer."

    "Fruit Sugar is your friend, Fat is your enemy."

    FYI I eat nearly 700 Carbs per day. I'm 165lbs and 7% BF
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  14. #14
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    I have been paleo for 2 years. High fat, low carbs diet.
    I do not think the word "diet" properly describes my eating habits, it is more of a lifestyle and I do not feel limited in any way.

    I have had some inflammation problems, which had lead me to try different diets in the past and paleo has worked the best.
    I am not 100% off the fructose, since I consume a significant portions of fruit (trying to limit it though to 20g/day), but have been successful to increase my intake of vegetables (in all forms - raw, cooked, juiced...)
    Besides the high quality fruit and vegetables I eat mostly organic grass fed chickens and beef. Wild caught low mercury fish 2-3x a week. Duck, Game, Lamb...
    Grass fed eggs.
    Sprouted nuts and seeds.
    Very little dairy.
    No rice, no potatoes (occasionally have sweet potatoes), no grains (no bread or pasta.) No legumes, only occasionally sprouted been hummus.

    We (I and my wife) prepare about 95% of our meals at home.

    My diet also consist of high quality fat (ghee, grass fed butter, lard, goose and duck fat, organic bacon fat, coconut oil, macadamia oil, olive oil for cold salads...)

    I do feel much healthier and energetic. My inflammation is under control. All my blood test have been very good.
    I am free of any pharmaceutical drugs.
    I use natural supplements, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidants. I am not very strict about this and do not take them on regular basis.
    But when I do it is vit. D and K, omega oils, curcumin, msm, astaxanthin, magnesium...

    I rarely drink alcohol, not even beer (I know, weird...)
    But I like beneficial herbal teas - rosehip, ginger, nettle, licorice...
    I never consume regular sugar, use raw honey and maple syrup instead.

    I have always been lighter with 140lbs and 5'9" and it has not changed since being paleo, if anything I have harder time to gain more weight . Which can be a challenge with low carbs...

    I usually bring some boiled eggs, bacon, nuts and fruit on my longer rides and it works for me.
    I do not race though so I can't comment on that.
    I am also practicing intermittent fasting - I eat only in 6-8 hour window, usually from 11am to 6pm. So I don't eat prior or during my morning rides, unless they last more than 3 hours.

    Another important thing is a good night sleep. I struggle sometimes with this simply because I lack the discipline to get in bed on time
    Last edited by jazzanova; 05-06-2014 at 08:16 AM.

  15. #15
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    I lost 20 lbs.
    I eat rib eye steaks.
    I drink beer (lots).
    I'm not on a diet.
    I quit processed foods.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    "What is the point of low carbs anyway? Are carbs the ennemi?"

    Not universally, but in many cases they are. More directly put, high glycemic index carbs and fructose are absolutely the "ennemi". Frutose is literally a poison.

    "Training or practicing whatever endurance sport on a very low carb diet is just a bad idea."

    Don't know where this "training ... endurance sport" business came from, but you're displaying the same ignorance as others are.

    "There are way too many body functions running on carbs. Carbs supports training adaptations, immune function and performance overall."

    Your body doesn't run directly on carbs and there are NO essential carbs. Oxygen supports "training adaptations, immune function and performance overall", as do fats and proteins. What you have said is meaningless.

    "Experts recently stated it quite clearly, any endurance athlete wishing to perform should rely on carbohydrates before, during and after training. There is hardly any way you will come around this very simple fact."

    Since when did this become about "endurance athletes" and when did you get to choose the "experts"? This thread is about riding on a low-carb diet, not about performing at the very highest levels on one.

    Low carb diets aren't a fad except to the uninformed.
    You clearly lack basic nutritional and physiological knowledge, you should not call people ignorant especially when saying fructose is a poison and oxygen supports training adaptation and immune function. Go read a bit before dismissing what people have to say regarding you ''belief'' based on actual knowledge on nutrition and physiology.

    Stop claiming people say meaningless stuff just because it hurts your pretty darn stupid dogma.

    Go ahead, neg rep me and go read another bro-science blog out there.

  17. #17
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    My dad had 5 stints put in his heart and his blood results were horrible. He went Ketogenic probably a half year ago and he has dropped 60 pounds, his blood test have come back off the charts good, and he has more energy than i've ever seen. He's been taken off all his heart meds and all the other stuff he was on and just takes vitamins now.

    Anywho, I of course am my fathers son just younger. My blood test are horrible and i'm sure heart disease is in my future. HOWEVER, I do Ironmans and centuries for fun and my dad doesn't. I really really want to know how to fuel for longer events? What have you (the ones not knocking this lifestyle change, not diet) been doing to fuel on longer rides?

    I've been reading through Peter Attia's EatingAcademy and i've noticed he eats Keto all the time, but uses just enough carbs for fuel during some events.... what are you all doing?

  18. #18
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    What are you eating now?
    Round and round we go

  19. #19
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    Honestly I haven't changed my bike diet because I know what works, but to remain in ketosis I will need to change it. I do the typical Gu's, Cliff Bars, and usually Accelerade in my bottles... but that is nothing good for a Keto diet.

  20. #20
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    I'm afraid that yo yo'ing by eating lots of carbs on the bike/run then going back to 70% plus in fat, that can’t be good. My body will be confused and not know whether it should be processing the carbs or ketones. It’s hard to find any athletes, other than Peter Attia, that tell you how they fuel for longer events while on this lifestyle. I want to hear what others are doing.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post

    FYI I eat nearly 700 Carbs per day. I'm 165lbs and 7% BF
    I hope you realize that this is a mind-bogglingly small amount--a single carb weighs far less than a speck of dust. You've probably already died of starvation.

  22. #22
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    Does anybody still do Keto around here? I've cut out pasta, bread and processed foods.

  23. #23
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    I do, I have been for about 2 months now. I'm not on the "keto diet" but am in ketosis. I don't eat as much fat as the keto diet calls for. I'm eating a pretty low calorie, moderate fat, moderate protein diet. I keep my carbs usually under 40g and I try to eat around 100g of protein a day. So far it's been working for me. I've lost over 20 lbs and about 6% of body fat. Every week I've been losing about 2 lbs of body fat.

    My riding and fitness in the beginning of the diet was definitely rough. I just felt awful. I must have become "keto adapted" because my last few rides have been amazing. I'm riding faster, have ridiculous endurance, and definitely having more fun. I never get any heaviness in my legs, never get any cramping. I have gone on much longer rides with more climbing and have not bonked. Not even close. What I'm lacking is power. Long sustained climbs are fine, short steep climbs are fine, but if I get a long steep climb I hit the wall pretty quickly. I'm ok with this tradeoff. Once I get to my ideal weight / fat percentage I'll start adding some really healthy plant based carbs back in my diet.

    I do have to plan my snacks pretty carefully. I'll eat some strawberries or a cup of blueberries before a ride. And then I'll bring some almonds, and prosciutto (i know weird) for snacks along the way if it's a long ride. I'm finding I need a lot more water than before. And usually need to eat some protein as soon as my ride is over or I feel terrible.

    The increase in my endurance has been one of the most surprising things about this diet. Also, for some reason running is so much harder on this diet. Biking feels great though.

  24. #24
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    I have been on a modified ketogenic diet for close to 2 years. By far the best thing I ever did, and I was relatively healthy to begin with.

    Truth is that everyone is indeed different, but not that much. I personally am somewhere between keto and primal, once you understand it you can adopt it to suite you and your lifestyle. I thrive this way, have never felt better in my life. I did the research myself, starting with reading Gary Taubes (you can watch some videos on youtube) and Robert Lustig. You don't need to pay for any of this knowledge, it is all out there available. When in doubt, follow the scientific community at all times.

    If anyone needs any clarifications or direction to begin, I will answer anything I can. It really is important to understand the harm done by grains and sugars specifically. Just because we can sustain ourselves on them doesn't mean we thrive on them.

    Mountain biking is very well suited for this type of diet, it's probably why I love doing it so much. I turned 50 this year and feel like a teenager for the first time in decades. Sorry if I sound like an advertisement, but this topic gets me upset when I see how unhealthy we have become.

  25. #25
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    I've been low carb high fat for 16 months. Being moderately to highly fat adapted is working well for my weekly rides. I'm 48 and now feel like I'm in my 20's again. My triglycerides/cholesterol ratios are fantastic. My lap times are better than they were in the 90's. Granted modern bike equipment is also a huge contributor to better speed. Screw the haters.
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  26. #26
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    Couldn't agree more, Popping.

    I just turned 50 this year and feel like i'm in my teens again. Personally I thrive on this diet and love the food. Give me an organic steak with 3 fried eggs on it any day of the week over pasta or bread.

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    Grok, a steak and 3 eggs sounds delicious. That would fuel one heck of a ride with energy to spare when you're finished.
    I'm still experimenting with pre-ride carb intake to maximize leg strength for the trail. I would like to hear from more LCHF riders on what works well for those hills or straightaways that require some "explosive" power. The carb requirements seem to vary in my experience. 50-125 grams seem to be the range for me. My rides are usually 2 hours or less in the late afternoon. Post-ride I often will fast till the next day. That's a fast without hunger of course.
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  28. #28
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    I failed to mention the greatest thing about being fat adapted is I can have a great ride with out worrying about eating. Fat stores alone can fuel a fast and furious MTB ride.
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  29. #29
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    Popping, every Sunday I wake up, do 20 min of high intensity weights, then bike up to the mtn for 2 hours. All this without anything to eat since the night before (with the exception of maybe a spoon of peanut butter before weights, my only indulgence in legumes).

    If I do ever feel hungry beforehand, maybe 4 eggs over and swimming in organic butter, with a sprinkling of parmesan cheese, pepper, garlic and oregano.

    I mostly eat a great supper, with meats, chicken or fish and many green leafy veggies either sauteed or in a salad with heavy dressing. I start the day with a few coffees with 35% cream and will not eat anything till around 1pm. Then it really depends on my mood, anything from nothing to something with meat and a salad, or maybe an Italian Sausage with a coffee.

    I really enjoy working out without eating anything, but I don't have any set rules. I eat when hungry and stop when not.

    Only problem is that now that summer is ending I am biking close to 4 or 5 times a week. This is way to much and creating to much appetitive and exhaustion, and a slight weight gain...but I don't care, it doesn't feel like effort as I enjoy every minute of it. Last 2 weeks I stopped the weights and do 5 quick sets of max pull ups before biking, 3 times a week.

    Bottom line is that biking should be when you want it, and I don't think you need to worry about pre loading anything if you are eating well. If properly fat adapted it's great to exercise on an empty stomach, you will truly be metabolizing fat.

    Petter Attia, Steven Phinney and Jeff Volek are some people that you can read or look for interviews on youtube regarding high intensity workouts on ketogenic diets. It's starting to become knowledge that you don't need any carbs at all even when over exercising.

    I should probably have more cheat meals than I actually do, just to always shock your body and change your routine, but I just love the food and the feeling way to much.

  30. #30
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    Here's a playlist I started recently. Attia"s low carb performance may be the best of this list.

    http://youtu.be/F2xhlIIueZY?list=PL0...AdNK1cxA_9XvfN
    Last edited by Popping Knees; 09-22-2015 at 01:45 AM.
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  31. #31
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    Humans evolved without eating a ton of carbs (obviously some were part of the diet). The vast majority of food was meat, fat and vegetables/plants.

    When we started to farm (very recently) we switched to a high carb diet and it keeps shifting further and further towards high carbs because carbs are cheap/calorie. In contrast to what some of the earlier posters posted, high carb diets are unnatural. Low carb under about 100-150g is probably about right.

    Im still trying to figure out nutrition. The first week I did not feel great, but 6 weeks in I feel pretty good. Im trying to stay less than 50g carbs, but I think most days Im below 30g. Im in ketosis according to the strips. Losing about 1 lb weight a week, hoping it is fat.

    For me I still get cramping after a 2.5 hours because of nutrition. I can generally resolve this by eating tums with magnesium. Even with a lot of cramping, they will be gone within a few minutes after eating tums. After about 3 hours my legs are heavy/tired. Havent gone further to see if it is resolved with eating fat.

    Usually I need a gu about every hour for a 3 hour+ ride, but I have been doing 3 hour rides with no additional nutrition so that is a plus. Im about to start doing 4-6 hour rides in a week so Ill find out how well it works.

    My preride food used to be peanut butter and jelly, I just bought some packaged coconut oil to experiment with. Also carry peanut butter.

    I personally dont like fueling with protein as it is so heavy.

  32. #32
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    Goodmojo, keep us updated on your coconut oil experiment. I am fairly certain a few heaping spoonfuls before a two hour ride is beneficial. I take it when I leave the house and will be on the trail within 15 minutes.
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  33. #33
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    It's normal to feel as bad as the Keto" flu, look it up. My daughter endured 10 days of it.

    In general, increase salt, magnesium (in the form of a citrate) and potassium.

    Your body will release much water that is is holding with glycogen. When it releases it it will sacrifice both magnesium and potassium but end up losing all three.

    Usually: (I many be off one one).
    Head ache, nausea = Eat some salt
    Muscle cramp = Magnesium
    Muscle Fatigue = Potassium

    *some places sell Half Salt which is half salt half potassium.

    Real chicken broth will do wonders. This is the time it takes for your body to become fat adapted. There are better articles about this with diet doctor (Andreas) and Dr. Sisson. Many adapt within even a week.

    Once you are truly adapted, you shouldn't need to re-anything, eat as you always do. This Sunday 2 hours into my ride my wife called delaying something due to her brother....so I ended up biking for 3.5 hours. I hadn't eaten since the night before and could have gone on for hours. Once you are truly fat adapted enjoy your meals when you want to.

    Remember: When we were hunter gatherer's we could go days with out any food and not feel bothered. Once we ate we also never felt bloated and lethargic. UNTIL CARBS CAME ALONG. Please remember that it's all about the insulin. Always!

    Here is a definition of it. I am more ketogenic, but this should explain it better.

    What Does it Mean to Be Fat-Adapted? | Mark's Daily Apple

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popping Knees View Post
    Goodmojo, keep us updated on your coconut oil experiment. I am fairly certain a few heaping spoonfuls before a two hour ride is beneficial. I take it when I leave the house and will be on the trail within 15 minutes.
    Did a 43 mile 5 hour ride (most road) without a ton of elevation, only 2000 ft of elevation.

    Only about 7 miles of trail, almost completely fat. All the elevation was road.

    Im prepping for an 85 mile ride so want to get the nutrition right.

    I was out the door sat morning without eating anything because of a tight schedule. Realized it once I was in the ride, but it was too late. I brought a couple of these coconut oil packets and some gus just in case.

    about 3 hours in I was starting to feel fatigue so ate a coconut oil pack (Amazon.com : Kelapo Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, 10-Count Pouches : Coconut Oil Single Packs : Grocery & Gourmet Food) . Turns out it hardened from the chilled camelbak water so it was actually crispy. It also tasted sweet even though there is no sugar in it.

    Ate another coconut oil about an hour later. Legs werent feeling great so I also ate a gu. About 4.5 hours in ate another gu after my legs were cramping. I road through the cramps then ate the gu and tums for the last big climb

    Ate 2 tums at 3 hours, another 2 at 4 and another 2 at 4.5 hours.

    The nutrition is definitely different. Im not sure whether the oil is going to be enough. Maybe I need to eat more of it?

    Next week I will do 50-55 miles and will be adding in another 1000 feet of elevation. Im starting my training way late so am not in shape at all.

  35. #35
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    Goodmojo, that was a long ride! You are really Keto adapted to get that done without a meal.
    I would think a meal of high fat, moderate protein and moderate carbs would be good for a ride of that duration. I've read that Prof. Noakes has his ultra marathon runners take in 250 grams of carbs on the day of the event. Something like a loaded baked potato might work well. I had a strong ride recently with scrambled eggs, bacon and a large avocado just prior to riding.
    I don't know if more coconut oil during a ride would help. I think I'm going to try that experiment next.
    Your cramping does not sound very pleasant. I often take potassium and magnesium tablets before and after a ride to help prevent cramping.
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  36. #36
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    been doing the keto thing for 10 months with the odd slip up here and there with complex carbs....my body doesn't react well when i do that.

    so far i have lost 10kg

    no more highs and lows in energy levels

    i can ride a lot more without feeling low on energy

    my bloods came back normal 6 months in and pressure was normal

    i do get issues with bowel movements.....but work pays for me to sh*t right lol

    i am going to keep at it....and avoid that evil chocolate

  37. #37
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    goodmojo, those are some serious rides. I would say that if you enjoy the coconut then go for it. If not find something you prefer.

    In principal someone with 6% body fat has about 3 months worth of calories should they ever need them. Although biking should not require you to do anything more than eating healthy regularly, I can see how your very long rides can be an exception.

    I would agree to try the high fat moderate protein in all your meals. Personally I do not eat more than about 20g of carbs a day and cheat very seldom, but lately doing more than 3 of my 2 hour rides a week is to tiring.

    One thing i did this summer is listen to my body more often. My rides are so much fun and therapeutic that I do not realize how many calories I burn. I reduced weights for now because I am trying to get as many rides in before winter, probably about 4 weeks left.

    Missionary, good for you about the weight loss. I tell people I would have done this regardless of the weight. The constant energy levels and clarity of mind, better sleep, are what I was most impressed with.

  38. #38
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    For those who like coconut oil. Nice fast paleo desert recipe.
    I use 100% organic ingredients.

    Shreaded coconut
    Unrefined coconut oil
    Raw 100% cacao powder
    Maple syrup
    Vanilla extract
    Himalayan salt

    Mix and enjoy.

    This doesnt have to be kept in the fridge, but if you do, take it out 15min before you consume it, it tastes better soft.
    You can also form it into little balls and refrigerate.
    Use cacao, dont use cocoa.
    I take them on my longer rides.
    Cacao is loaded with magnesium, which also helps when riding.
    Have been paleo for 4 years.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    For those who like coconut oil. Nice fast paleo desert recipe.
    I use 100% organic ingredients.

    Shreaded coconut
    Unrefined coconut oil
    Raw 100% cacao powder
    Maple syrup
    Vanilla extract
    Himalayan salt

    Mix and enjoy.

    This doesnt have to be kept in the fridge, but if you do, take it out 15min before you consume it, it tastes better soft.
    You can also form it into little balls and refrigerate.
    Use cacao, dont use cocoa.
    I take them on my longer rides.
    Cacao is loaded with magnesium, which also helps when riding.
    Have been paleo for 4 years.
    How much of each?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogeydog View Post
    How much of each?
    It depends on how you like it.
    If you want it moist, use more oil.
    If you want it chocolate intense, use more cacao.
    The same with the maple syrup.
    Just use a bag of shreaded coconut and add about 5tbs of oil, 5tbs of cacao, 1ts of vanilla extract, pinch or two of salt (good for long rides too), 1 tbs of syrup.
    I dont use any measuring spons though, just play it by ear.
    You can also add more of everything.

    I ususally use a bag of shreaded coconut. I like "Let's Do Organic Finely Shredded Unsweetened Coconut, 8 Ounce"

    https://jet.com/product/detail/eacaa...FQqGfgodVQYFvw

    I go through the oil fast, so usually get this:
    Vitacost Extra Virgin Certified Organic Coconut Oil - Non-GMO -- 54 fl oz
    http://m.vitacost.com/products/vitac...n-gmo-54-fl-oz

    Cacao:
    Navitas Naturals Organic Cacao Powder -- 16 oz
    http://m.vitacost.com/products/navit...o-powder-16-oz

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    We should try and put together a list of keto/paleo food ideas. Anything from great meals and sides to simple snacks.

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    I follow the Keto King, Dr. Attia, and am going to try what he uses for longer rides while on a ketogenic diet,

    https://www.generationucan.com/

    he says it is a slower burning super starch and doesn't mess with his being in ketosis. I haven't tried it yet but plan on it when my current jug of Perpetuem runs out.

    Another thing that Dr. Attia has talked about are the new exogenous ketones that are available, you can do a search for Peter Attia and find some vids where he discusses both.

    Prüvit: Every. Single. Day. : Prüvit

    I just ordered some from this co. to give it a go for myself and the wife, since it's supposed really kick start weight loss, I'll report back.

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    I very much admire the work Dr. Attia has done, but I wouldn't suggest anyone actually need this (superstarch) or any supplement to kick start fat loss (also don't forget that he is an elite athlete).

    The key is to eat healthy real foods. Avoid the grains, sugars and starches. Once you achieve a particular weight, cheat as often as your body allows you, based on your own needs.

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    This is exactly how I utilize carbs, works great. Fat is my all day energy, carbs are my pre/intra for the weight room or biking. Doing it this way carbs are used,and not stored in the liver.

  46. #46
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    I went Keto for a while. While on the bike I was fine at steady state efforts into Zone 3. When I tried to ramp it up and do anaerobic efforts I just felt flat like I had no real kick. I would actually get that feeling like I was about to bonk...What works best for myself is a diet of primarily unprocessed foods. My daily diet has come to be centered around sweet potatoes. No particular reason. Just kind of worked out that way. I just rinse one off and throw it in the microwave for 6 minutes. I eat the skin and all. Not sure what they do once in my body but my appetite, energy and brain function seem to be really balanced and level throughout the day. I eat 2 per day on average. I don't fuel on the bike during base but once I start ramping things up I usually make my own gel using this recipe.http://www.backcountry.com/explore/h...ake-energy-gel

    Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

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    Interesting Flat Ark, I think like they say, "diet is very individual", seams to be very true. How long were you in Ketosis?

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    Probably just in the neighborhood of 1 month. My brother had been doing it for a while and dropped a a lot of weight really fast. He is probably a better example but on the bike his results were similar. He always felt great and seemingly had lots of energy but just didn't seem to have the high end that he did before.

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    This is an interesting thread. And I will share my experience. To support my mother in law to get her blood values in order, all the immediate family jumped on the Whole 30 diet. Not strictly Keto, but pretty close. For background I am technically a "Pro" mountain biker, finishing mid-pack at USAC XC nationals, and with a few better results in longer races. My weight over the past 4 years has been almost unbelievably, and laughably stable.

    The "diet" was interesting. Until I hit 14 days or so, I was a slug on the bike. I just couldn't GO. I was losing weight, lost a bunch in the first week, probably clearing out the digestive tract, losing water weight, and reducing inflammation.

    There was a ride 10 days in where I felt pretty crappy, uploaded to STRAVA, and found that I actually was riding as fast, if not faster than normal. I noticed that I required no more than 1/2 the water I had required before, but craved salt more than I ever have.

    About 3 weeks in, I had one of those rides where you can go as fast as you want, recover, and hit it again almost immediately. The diet was definitely creating changes in my performance. Whether they really would last, or be beneficial I did not know yet.

    After August, I started to take down more potatoes & sweet potatoes.

    I started this August 1, I've maintained the diet for the most part since. Raced a stage race in October, placing 2nd overall, and winning the third stage. Each day I felt like I could go the brink of bonking, but the bonk didn't happen, and I could reel other racers back in when gapped. I feel this was my best race performance to date. In the CX races I did this year, I again found I had the ability to surge over and over again.

    Moving forward, I will continue to apply what I learned when reintroducing "normal" foods one by one. I will add more carbs back in to bolster my top end during racing and hard training. I will drink beer too, but less than normal, as I found alcohol makes it very difficult for me to sleep.

    Anyway, it may not be for everyone. If I didn't feel it helped my race performance, I'd have a hard time staying motivated to stick to it. I will add that this whole time I have not actively avoided carbs, but when you're limited to only starchy veggies and fruit, you tend to take less in than normal. I also have not raced enough since I started eating this way to confirm 100% it's helped my performance, but anecdotally, it has.
    Last edited by brentos; 01-17-2016 at 11:57 PM.

  50. #50
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    Ok... I've read enough that I'm going to go ahead and try this (probably a hybrid of the Primal and Paleo diet).

    Just as a background, I'm turning 48 this year. I'm a stocky 5'4" and I weigh 153 lbs (ideally, I want to be 145). Like a typical middle-ager, I have love handles and a gut I'd like to "minimize," and I often feel flat when I go for bike rides (which is typically one to two XC-type rides per week of 10-15 miles and under 2K of climbing). I'm almost convinced my testosterone levels are lower, but I'll get a definitive answer during my next annual. In the meantime, I'm willing to try something different. FYI, my results were excellent during my last annual (blood sugar, cholesterol, etc).

    Anyway, what do I expect to happen when I switch over? I usually have a banana before a ride because I am prone to muscle cramps. I'm also concerned that not having carb reserves will leave me less energized than before. What about the usual back slides that happen (succumbing to sweets, for example)? How much does that set me back? What pitfalls should I avoid?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron m. View Post
    Ok...

    Anyway, what do I expect to happen when I switch over? I usually have a banana before a ride because I am prone to muscle cramps. I'm also concerned that not having carb reserves will leave me less energized than before. What about the usual back slides that happen (succumbing to sweets, for example)? How much does that set me back? What pitfalls should I avoid?
    What to expect...you likely will lose some weight immediately. Then between day 3 and day 15, you'll think it's the dumbest thing you've ever done, but keep doing it. You energy stores will be lower, until you become adapted to burning fat...figure 20 days or so. If you're prone to muscle cramps, find an electrolyte additive for your water without sugar (Elete, Endurolytes, etc).

    Back Slides? Simple, don't let them happen. Seriously, don't, you'll just make it harder on yourself. I think I had one granola bar when I was doing this because I ran out of food at work, and had to stay late. Honestly it didn't set me back...aside from wanting another later on with a stronger craving.

    The pitfall you should avoid is losing motivation. Make sure you really want to do this, be motivated and strictly adhere to your plan for 20 days or more, until your body makes the switch over to fat burning. It's pretty cool when it happens.

    There are all sorts of menu ideas and recipes to on the web, just google it, many are really awesome.

  52. #52
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    Muscle cramps, muscle weakness and nausea are caused by a shortage of magnesium, potassium or salt (and your body will release both so you need to replenish). Try to find real chicken or beef broth, a hot cup daily will immediately help with the keto flu until you adapt.

    I find the key to motivating myself at the start was researching and making foods I enjoyed most. If you don't thoroughly enjoy eating this way you will not be able to sustain it. Pinterest has been amazing for recipes in terms of snacks and meals.

    As the post above says, you need to become fat adapted. Once you achieve this then you can decide exactly what works for you, you don't have to choose any particular diet. This is a lifestyle change that you will be tweaking at all times. I personally thrive most being ketogenic with a leaning towards primal. I rarely have cheat meals because I enjoy eating this way.

    Let us know how it goes and ask any questions. I could never go back to having a body that doesn't use ketones instead of glucose, you too will understand.

    And anyone that tells you carbs are required for any amount of cardio.....they are both ignorant and not fat adapted.

    Always follow the science, not the fools.

  53. #53
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    Thanks, Grok and Brentos. I'll let you know how it works out.

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    So I started Monday (after saying goodbye to carbs via an indulgent weekend of pigging out). The first couple of days wasn't too bad because I hadn't really been missing the sweet stuff (I LOVE chocolates), but it's been getting progressively tougher. On the good side, I've managed to shed about 3 lbs (probably all water). I'll just have to hang in there a little bit longer. I've gone on a couple of light bike rides, and noticed that as long as I don't put a lot of effort, my energy level is barely adequate. We'll see tomorrow when I do my DH ride if that remains true.

    FWIW, I'm going to employ the Ketogenic diet until I hit my desired weight, and probably switch to Primal Blueprint for maintenance.

  55. #55
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    Well, Saturday was a disaster. My DH ride consists mainly on getting to a couple of trailheads (about 1500-2000 ft of climbing total). The first trail is more a jump line, where you have to sprint to jump features and carry speed to make it through gaps. On my first session, I ran the warm-up jump line about three times and was gassed already. By the time we were on the second trail (a freeride trail consisting of drops, steep switchbacks and gaps), I had no energy to even hit the jump features. I didn't even have the mental clarity to hit the trail at speed, I felt like I didn't have the strength to manhandle the bike if I needed to. So I backed off... and that day was not the least bit enjoyable.

    I'm really hoping my energy level comes back... my ultimate goal is to be a fitter, stronger rider after this transformation, and all the stories I've read say that I will be. But right now, it sucks. LOL!

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    Interesting thread.

    What most people here are calling a ketogenic diet is really just a low carb diet, not a true medical ketogenic diet.

    A real keto diet should ONLY be done for a diagnosed medical problem and under medical supervision. A true keto diet is intentionally altering your physiology and has many possible side effects and drug interactions, including OTC drugs and NSAIDS. A real keto diet is also low protein ( less than 50 gm/day) and could hamper fitness goals. Also low fiber with the resulting bowel effects.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    Interesting thread.

    What most people here are calling a ketogenic diet is really just a low carb diet, not a true medical ketogenic diet.

    A real keto diet should ONLY be done for a diagnosed medical problem and under medical supervision. A true keto diet is intentionally altering your physiology and has many possible side effects and drug interactions, including OTC drugs and NSAIDS. A real keto diet is also low protein ( less than 50 gm/day) and could hamper fitness goals. Also low fiber with the resulting bowel effects.
    Perhaps I use that term loosely... thank you for the clarification. My dietary restriction is less than 30 grams of carb per day... I don't monitor fat or protein intake, although I make a point of consuming a lot of leafy vegetables along with the fat and protein.

    Interestingly, my water/liquid intake has increased since doing this.

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    I know the feeling, stick with it, the energy will come back, I can ride for hours and hours with no food, just water. I'm sub 30g of carbs a day, I aim for 20 or less.

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    A true keto diet is about a 4:1:1 ratio of fats, carbs, protein by weight. So by kilocalories it would be 9:1:1. Some medical professionals use a higher ratio of 5:1:1 by weight, or 11:1:1 by kilocalories. As you can see the overwhelming source of fuel is fat with little to none from carbs or protein. This is a difficult diet to maintain and needs constant medical supervision. Used primarily for epilepsy in children when other drugs cannot control the seizures (for reasons not fully understood it is not as effective in adults). Also used in some cancer treatments, as tumors do not grow well with ketones as fuel. Also some studies show promise with Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimer's, and ALS.

    So if your diet includes protein then it is not a keto diet, just low carb. If you do not have a sweet or acetone smelling breath you are not in true ketosis, as acetone is a ketosis waste product excreted via the lungs.

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    A true Keto diet is when your body is using ketones instead of glucose as the main source of energy for all functions including the brains requirements (the few carbs your body does need are easily made by converting protein).

    Most people will achieve ketosis with 20 or less grams of carbs per day, and by carbs I mean healthy green veggies. The healthier you are the more carbs you can get away with while staying in keto.

    This is not a high or low protein anything...protein is a function of your lean muscle mass with a few smaller variables depending on activity. An average guy needs about 120 - 140 g of protein a day.

    ron, let us know how it's going. The science is there, once you are ketogenic you will never want to go back only because of the energy levels and mental clarity. The weight loss occurs because you are going back to the way your body functioned for millions of years before the agricultural revolution.

    chowder, nobody believes the part of riding without food for hours on end, they have to try it for themselves.......true fat metabolism.

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    Thanks, Dave and Grok.

    Well, it's day 11 now. I'm currently at 148.6 lbs (from 155 on Day 1). My goal was to hit 145 but I'm moving that down to 140 now (only because aesthetically, I could lose a few more fat pounds... lol!).

    Some observations so far:
    1) my craving for "carbs" has diminished
    2) when I do get hungry, I don't get that same awful feeling of starvation like I did before
    3) I usually stop eating when I'm content
    4) still have a slight impulse to end my meal with a dessert (but I've managed to control that)
    5) I'm drinking a lot more and peeing a lot more as a consequence (I didn't need to wake up in the middle of the night to pee before but now I do)
    6) my dreams are freakin' VIVID for some reason (now I'm just waiting for Megan Fox to show up... don't tell my wife... lol!)
    7) Energy level is constant through the day
    8) rode without eating last Tuesday and did 14 miles, 2400 ft of climbing. So it can be done, but I have to say, IT SUCKED not having top-end energy (for sprints, steep climbs)

    So far, so good. I'm going to up the fat intake a little bit, but I think I'm progressing okay (just avoiding carbs has been tremendous).

    Grok... speaking of top-end energy, I've read that some people take a little bit of carb prior to a work-out to regain that... should I wait until after 21 days before playing around with carbs again since I know I'm not fully acclimated yet? Honestly, I don't think I'm even at optimal ketosis... my wife does have that breathalyzer gadget to measure it so I think I'll start monitoring.

    I'm also going to try out intermittent fasting (no food for 16 hours) to see if that helps speed up the process. Wish me luck!

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    Hi Ron,

    Glad to hear you are adapting. Here is a cut and paste from a great site, Ketogains.com with info on your question.

    "TKD

    What is it?

    The Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD) is nothing more than the standard ketogenic diet (SKD) with carbohydrates consumed at specific times around exercise. This means that carbohydrates are consumed on days when exercise is performed. If fat loss is the goal, the number of calories consumed as carbohydrates should be subtracted from total calories, meaning that less dietary fat is consumed on those days. The TKD is a compromise approach between the SKD and the CKD. The TKD will allow individuals on a ketogenic diet to perform high intensity activity (or aerobic exercise for long periods of time) without having to interrupt ketosis for long periods of time.
    -"The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald

    Within certain limits, the TKD can sustain high intensity exercise performance, although perhaps not as well as the CKD. The TKD is generally most appropriate for beginning and intermediate weight-trainers, as it will allow them to sustain exercise intensity without disrupting ketosis for long periods of time. Additionally those individuals who cannot use the CKD for health reasons, but who are also involved in high-intensity exercise, may find the TKD appropriate.

    Weight training is not generally limited by the availability of blood glucose. Studies giving carbs prior to resistance training have not found an increase in performance. However, almost without exception, individuals on a SKD who consume pre-workout carbs report improved strength and endurance and an ability to maintain a higher intensity of training during their workout.

    Anyone following a ketogenic diet who wishes to perform high intensity training can benefit from the TKD approach.

    Very little research has examined the effects of a ketogenic diet on weight training performance and it is difficult to determine exactly why performance is improved with preworkout carbs. It may be that raising blood glucose to normal levels, which only requires a minimal 5 grams of carbohydrate, allows better muscle fiber recruitment during training or prevent fatigue. Ultimately, the reason why carbohydrates improve performance is less critical than the fact that they do.

    Additionally, individuals performing extensive amounts of aerobic training on a SKD typically report improved performance with carbs consumed before and during workouts. Even at low intensities, performance on a SKD is limited by glucose and muscle glycogen. For this reason, endurance athletes using a SKD are encouraged to experiment with carbohydrates around training.

    The major goal with pre-workout carbs is not necessarily to improve performance, although that is a nice benefit. Primarily, the goal is to provide enough carbohydrate to promote post-workout glycogen synthesis without interrupting ketosis for very long. That is, the carbohydrate taken prior to one workout is really an attempt to ‘set up’ the body for better performance at the next workout by maintaining glycogen levels.

    Although experimentation is encouraged, most individuals find that 25-50 grams of carbohydrates taken thirty minutes before a workout enhance performance. The type of carbohydrate consumed pre-workout is not critical and individuals are encouraged to experiment with different types of carbs. Most seem to prefer easily digestible carbohydrates, either liquids or high Glycemic Index (GI) candies as to have them absorb fast in the body and also to avoid problems with stomach upset during training. A wide variety of foods have been used prior to workouts: glucose polymers, Sweet Tarts, bagels, and food bars; all result in improved performance.

    Research suggests that carbohydrates consumed before or after exercise should not negatively affect ketosis. However, some individuals find that they drop out of ketosis transiently due to the ingestion of pre-workout carbohydrates. After workout, there will be a short period where insulin is elevated and free fatty acid availability for ketone production is decreased. However, as blood glucose is pushed into the muscles, insulin should drop again allowing ketogenesis to resume within several hours.

    Performing some low intensity cardio to lower insulin and increase blood levels of free fatty acids should help to more quickly reestablish ketosis. Post-workout carbohydrates might be expected to have a greater effect on ketosis, in that insulin levels will most likely be higher than are seen with pre-workout carbohydrates. For this reason, individuals may want to experiment with pre-workout carbohydrates first, only adding postworkout carbohydrates if necessary.

    When should I use it?

    Experienced in sports or lifting / more than ~ 3 months steady on keto: you might want to try a TKD. This is the middle ground, you "drop" out of ketosis by consuming carbs around your workouts and should go back in after finishing. The overall goal is to eat JUST enough carbs to provide glycogen during your workout. You can build muscle on this diet while staying lean, albeit muscle gain will be much slower than with a CKD.

    How do I "do" the TKD?

    NOTE - the following is the "classic" approach to TKD, we suggest you use the modified for KETOGAINS approach, a la /u/darthluiggi

    Individuals following the SKD who want to perform high intensity activity will absolutely have to consume carbs at some point around exercise. The basic guidelines for setting up a SKD (from should still be used to develop a TKD. The only difference is that calories must be adjusted to account for the carbohydrates being consumed around training.

    The safest time to consume carbs, in terms of maintaining ketosis, is before a workout and ketosis should be reestablished soon after training. Depending on total training volume, 25-50 grams of carbohydrates taken 30-60’ prior to training seems to be a good amount. The type carbohydrate is less critical for pre-workout carbs but quickly digested, high GI carbs seem to work best as they are absorbed fast by the body and also to avoid stomach upset during training.

    If more than 50 grams of carbohydrates must be consumed around training, it may be beneficial to split the total amount, consuming half 30’ before training and the other half at the beginning (or during) of the workout.

    If post-workout carbohydrates are consumed, an additional 25-50 grams of glucose or glucose polymers are recommended. Fructose should be avoided as it can refill liver glycogen and interrupt ketosis. Additionally protein can be added to the post-workout meal to help with recovery. Dietary fat should be avoided since it will slow digestion and could lead to fat storage when insulin levels are high.

    If post-workout carbohydrates are not consumed, taking in protein only can still enhance recovery as blood glucose and insulin should be slightly elevated from the consumption of pre-workout carbohydrates.

    Notes:

    The suggested carb sources for a successful TKD are the ones made from dextrose and glucose. Try to avoid other carb sources, especially those high in fructose, as they will replenish liver glycogen (instead of muscle glycogen) defeating the purpose of the TKD.

    Examples of easy sources of carbs for TKD are:

    Dextrose Tablets
    No fructose KaroTM Brand Syrup.
    Pre-workout gels such as GU Gels, Gatorade, Dextro
    Candy such as Sweet Tarts, Runts, Nerds, Lolli-Pops, Gummi Bears;
    Although it is suggested to avoid mixing high fat items with carbs during a TKD, an exception to this would be MCT Oil(and Coconut Oil), so feel free to combine both as a pre-workout formula. Wait at least 2 hours after exercising before reintroducing fats to your diet."

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    Thanks, Chowder! Great info!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    The weight loss occurs because you are going back to the way your body functioned for millions of years before the agricultural revolution.
    This is not true. First off, modern man has not existed for "millions of years". Second, weight loss on a keto diet still requires a calorie deficit. The science is there, no need to resort to witchcraft.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    This is not true. First off, modern man has not existed for "millions of years". Second, weight loss on a keto diet still requires a calorie deficit. The science is there, no need to resort to witchcraft.
    I believe what he was trying to say is that man have been consuming grains only for a very short time, considering how long we had been hunters prior to becoming gatherers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I believe what he was trying to say is that man have been consuming grains only for a very short time, considering how long we had been hunters prior to becoming gatherers.
    The "agricultural revolution" was not the time we became "gatherers" rather than "hunters", nor did it mark the moment in history where we suddenly developed weight problems. The "millions of years" comment is simply indicative of his lack of scrutiny when it comes to his own assumptions.

    More important is the suggestion that weight loss occurs as a direct consequence of restoring the diet to what "nature intended". That is very much NOT the case. It is easily possible to gain weight on a keto diet and lose on a non-keto one. Calories still matter. It is easy to find cases where keto dieters cannot lose weight only to find out that the "unlimited" items they are allowed (butter, heavy cream) aren't really unlimited when they constitute thousands of calories a day. You can't drink a pint of heavy cream as a a nightcap and expect to lose weight, regardless of whether cavemen "hunted" or "gathered" it back in the day.

    It's also important to know that your body doesn't automatically recover from a lifetime of liver poisoning from fructose so switching to a Keto diet, while perhaps the best possible thing you could do, does not magically restore your body to health and drop all those "extra pounds".

  67. #67
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    I get your point, craigsj. I was calorie-counting the last time I lost weight (over ten years ago). Using the same method now does not seem to help (I'm 48 this year).

    The benefits I hope to get from my attempt at a (quasi)-ketogenic lifestyle are:
    1) more efficient fat burning with mitochondrial build-up (as research suggests)
    2) temper my craving for carb-based food (my brother who is younger than me died of diabetes-related complications last year)
    3) more consistent energy through the day
    4) curb my appetite (I think this relates closely to #2).

    So you're right... the balance of calories (consumed and burned) dictate whether you lose weight or not. I think employing this dietary method will help. We'll see what happens! =)

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    Sorry to hear about your brother, that's way too young. I have a family history as well.

    I'm a big fan of keto and believe you're thinking right in employing it. Still, some believe you can have unlimited fat calories and lose weight but that isn't so. Still have to moderate the amount you eat to win, keto is just the right way to do it.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I believe what he was trying to say is that man have been consuming grains only for a very short time, considering how long we had been hunters prior to becoming gatherers.
    Not completely true. Paleolithic man ate what was locally available. HG societies that lived in arid areas or grassland steppes gathered grains, and it was a big part of their diet.

    There were three companion studies in the UK that looked at this very topic. One studied the diet of current non-westernized HG societies (there are still a few in the world), one analyzed paleolithic copralites, and one studied the bone structure and mineral isotope composition of paleolithic skeletal remains. All three reached similar but not identical conclusions. The current paleo fad diet is similar in some aspects to what the cavemen ate, and vastly different in other aspects.

    Current state of the art knowledge in epigenetics shows that your genome does change within your own lifetime, in response to diet, stress, drugs, injury, and environment. We do not have the same genes as our paleolithic ancestors. You do not have the identical genes of your parents, or even of you as a child. Additionally, the nutritional composition of cultivated fruits and vegetables is significantly different from their original wild origins. Most notably fiber content. Paleolithic man ate a lot more fiber than even the most zealot vegan today -- 100 or more grams per day.

    There are a lot more fruits and vegetables available today than were ever available to HG societies. All the plants that are native to North America were unavailable to them, so they evolved without tomatoes, potatoes, blueberries, corn, and the list goes on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron m. View Post
    .....
    Grok... speaking of top-end energy, I've read that some people take a little bit of carb prior to a work-out to regain that... should I wait until after 21 days before playing around with carbs again since I know I'm not fully acclimated yet? Honestly, I don't think I'm even at optimal ketosis... my wife does have that breathalyzer gadget to measure it so I think I'll start monitoring.

    I'm also going to try out intermittent fasting (no food for 16 hours) to see if that helps speed up the process. Wish me luck!
    I would wait the 21 days, or until you are completely adapted (and you will know). Once you are, then you can spend the rest of your life re adapting and testing, and seeing what works for you.

    Currently I eat a full supper and nothing other than coffee the next day till about 2, where I will have a snack, or a meal. There is no real norm and every day is different. When I first started I had big breakfasts every morning, but after a few months my appetite slowly changed. I am currently not biking during our winter, which has significantly reduced my appetite even more, and started my weight to lower a little more again.

    Forget what everyone is saying about history or carbs, just make sure that you are thoroughly enjoying what you eat and sticking to under 20 carbs a day. Increasing fat intake during this phase is what the main experts advise to help speed up the process.

    The whole point of this “natural” part of this is not having to count or weight anything. Eat when you are hungry and stop when not. I will always stress to make sure you eat things you love, otherwise it is very hard to maintain this as a lifestyle change.

    Craigsj....we were gatherers and hunters at the same time, agriculture as a main source is only about 10k years old, which also allowed for larger groups to settle and form cities. Modern man has evolved to where he is today over about 2 million years. What is good for him is generally what is good for us. Let’s try and help a fellow member instead, we both mean well.

    Try reading or watching what Gary Taubes says about calorie counting, better known as the first law of thermodynamics. It clearly explains why your hunger is different on this diet, and why over time you will become less of a slave to food. I will try to add more later. Good luck and hopefully you will be adapted very soon.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Craigsj....we were gatherers and hunters at the same time,
    I know this, perhaps you mean this for another poster...

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I believe what he was trying to say is that man have been consuming grains only for a very short time, considering how long we had been hunters prior to becoming gatherers.
    You implied, rather, that our dietary problem began with agriculture. I do not believe that is (remotely) the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Modern man has evolved to where he is today over about 2 million years. What is good for him is generally what is good for us. Let’s try and help a fellow member instead, we both mean well.
    Modern man is defined scientifically as having existed about 500 thousand years.

    I agree, I don't think it's helpful to anyone to state things as facts that are untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Try reading or watching what Gary Taubes says about calorie counting, better known as the first law of thermodynamics.
    Sloppy statements like this undermine your credibility.

    I do not advocate "calorie counting" in the traditional sense, I abhor it. The fact remains, though, that simply changing what we eat without other considerations does not inherently result in weight loss, as you claimed. If it does for you, then that's great as it means that your weight issues aren't as challenging as others face.

  72. #72
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    Okay.... it's over three weeks now (22 days) since I started. I'm down 10 lbs from my heaviest weight at the end of January (currently at 146). As Chowderhead has suggested, I've been using TKD a little bit (usually in the form of sweetened coffee) prior to rigorous exercise and I'm actually feeling good during the effort. I've also been doing intermittent fasting and it surprisingly does not affect the volume of food I end up eating once I do have a meal. Obviously, the weight loss has slowed down but I don't mind a slow and steady decline.

    Once I'm down to 140, I'll switch over to a more Primal diet. I actually don't have any sweet cravings anymore, but I don't want to start that cycle again. Thanks again for all your help. I'll post updates as I march down my goal.

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    Great to hear Ron, Yeah, the final pounds are always the hardest, as you already know :-) My wife and I have been having a lot of fun with cooking up some new foods. We do a lot of IF as well, and fasted workouts, rides, and runs and feel great.

    Matt

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    Hi Ron, keep us updated. How is your endurance during rides, and your overall energy levels during the day?

    craigsj...Nobody gives a damn what you thing about my ****ing credibility, everyone got the points I was making. It helps not being an insecure idiot.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Hi Ron, keep us updated. How is your endurance during rides, and your overall energy levels during the day?
    Thanks for following up, Grok.

    It's been slow... I'm currently hovering at around 144 lbs. I think the slower weight decline may have to do with more carbs creeping into my diet (I've been snacking on peanut, sunflower seeds and peanut butter more) although I have not had a legitimate cheat day NOR do I crave for one. I see carb-based foods (breads, rice, pasta, cakes) and know they're good but I don't feel compelled to eat them... so I suppose that's good. My energy level has been stable... I also try to fast intermittently. I haven't been doing as much riding with all this El Nino rain so I hope that once the weather improves, so will my weight loss.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    craigsj...Nobody gives a damn what you thing about my ****ing credibility,...
    Apparently you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    ...everyone got the points I was making.
    That's the fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    It helps not being an insecure idiot.
    Look who's talking.

    What really helps is sticking to facts.

  77. #77
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    LOL! Relax guys... we're all on the same team. =)

    So it's been two months... and I'm a shade under 142 lbs. I've been doing a more targeted ketogenic diet (meaning taking carbs before a ride) but I think I'm going to start trying to go even without that now. I'm also intrigued by the idea of taking exogenous ketones to keep myself in a ketogenic state (although it seems like cheating... lol!). Admittedly, I've been a bit more lax lately and may be going in and out of ketosis (although I make a point of "trying" to fast intermittently).

    Overall, I feel pretty good. Energy level is stable, hunger pangs are very moderate, and of course, a bit leaner (I had my % body fat measured and it's at %16 now... I know, it could be better... lol!).

    Thanks again for all the info here... I'm all into this lifestyle change. =)

  78. #78
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    Any updates?
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    I've been doing Keto for about 2 months now. And feeling good. Don't feel starved. I'm down a little under 2 stone. Riding power is still good. And meals are great. Don't miss breads pastas or rice at all.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Ps. What do people take on rides?? As snacks and fuel.


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    Update? I was on a month-long vacation so that was the end of that. LOL!

    I gained a few pounds since I went back on an unrestricted diet, but when I got back from vacation last week, I started drastically decreasing my carb intake (about 4 lbs of water weight automatically shed). Not on full keto yet but will resume very soon.

    When I was strict keto, I snacked on boiled eggs, pork rinds or even fried pork belly (you buy them at the Mexican stores) on the trail.

  82. #82
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    Almost Six Years Now.

    I've been on a ketogenic diet since January of 2011.

    I went through all the difficulties the rest of you are describing as you experiment with starting your own keto diets. The transition had some rough moments.

    I've also experienced all the same benefits I'm hearing from the rest of you who have stuck with it. I can sum it up by saying that I feel consistently good, don't bonk, don't crave, and have good energy levels. Hunger is a gentle and mellow feeling that comes on slowly, rather than the miserable experience it was when I ate lots of carbs.

    52 years old now. 6 ft. 160 lbs.

    Had a routine physical done last month. Blood tests all show healthy levels of everything, including cholesterol. Urine tests also unremarkable, with a trace of ketones. I'm looking at the results right now. I told the doc I avoid carbs. He told me, "Good!"

    Circumstances occasionally leave me with no option but to consume carbs. However, I've never let that turn into reverting back to a regular carb-rich diet. I.E. for social reasons, I've occasionally had to eat carbs (weddings, guest in someone's home, etc.), but those have just been isolated incidents.

    For me it is easy to stay motivated for a fat/protein/fiber diet because I simply feel ill when I eat carbs.

    Chicken, pork roasts, turkey, meatloaf (that includes pork and turkey), bacon, tuna (in oil), eggs, olive oil, coconut oil, organic butter, heavy cream, cheeses (goat and cow), Brussels sprouts, spinach, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, sauerkraut, summer squash, zucchini, pumpkin seeds, cacao based treats (Yum, but an acquired taste!), and lots of other stuff too. No fruit, except an occasional tomato or blueberries I find in the woods. There's a lot to choose from. I average less than 20 grams of available carbs per day.

    One challenge that I'm trying to overcome is that these foods spoil quickly, so I have to take extra precautions when I bikepack. Thinking of trying to make pemmican or dehydrating some meals. Or looking into web sites that sell freeze dried food to preppers.

    Any suggestions on carb-free foods that keep well without refrigeration?
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross1200 View Post
    Ps. What do people take on rides?? As snacks and fuel.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    For a day ride, it's hard cheeses, or a brick of feta, pumpkin seeds, a small bottle of olive oil (I drink it straight), cured meats like salami or pepperoni (although I dislike eating nitrites), tuna in a pouch.

    Still trying to figure out how to carry a variety of low-carb foods on multi-day rides. They spoil more easily than carb-rich foods.
    Spinymouse

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  84. #84
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    Jerky is an easy one

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    I wish I had found this thread when I started 5 months ago. I was very concerned about how to accommodate my riding with going on this Atkins diet, when carbs are required for food. I'm not an expert, and I fell into this with no preparation. I'm not the perfect example of someone doing Atkins diet, I'm just some guy on a diet who also rides a bike.

    Prior to this diet, I was always the last person on group rides, unless someone had a mechanical issue or a young kid with them.

    I was fearful for the transition, and what I did was to do long slow rides keeping my heart rate in a range where I could be mostly fat burning anyway. I never had a bad ride, but frankly I wasn't riding enough either. Anyway I got through the transition, and I wonder if this might be a good approach for people starting out, to focus on long low to middle intensity rides while they make the switch.

    Once I was definitely switched over, what happened was that I was never the last guy anymore, and I always had energy at the end of the group ride.

    When I looked at the Garmin, what was happening was I was ending my rides at a much lower heart rate, because I wasn't accustomed to riding fast enough to keep it at levels I would have been at when I was full sized. I dropped 15% of my weight rather quickly.

    I don't bring food to fuel rides anymore. It just isn't necessary. I've done many morning rides on an empty stomach, no problem. Not condoning it, I should eat meals regularly, and there's a lot of things I should do that I don't.

    I feel like I want to stay on a fat burning diet for the same reason a lot of people want carbon rims.

    I love all the negative comments at the beginning of this thread, they just make me laugh. And the guy that says it's not sustainable, did that shake you to the core?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ETChipotle View Post
    .
    .
    .

    I don't bring food to fuel rides anymore. It just isn't necessary. I've done many morning rides on an empty stomach, no problem. Not condoning it, I should eat meals regularly, and there's a lot of things I should do that I don't.

    I feel like I want to stay on a fat burning diet for the same reason a lot of people want carbon rims.

    I love all the negative comments at the beginning of this thread, they just make me laugh. And the guy that says it's not sustainable, did that shake you to the core?
    The notion of needing to eat constantly, i.e. sucking carbohydrate goo, throughout a strenuous activity, is odd to me when I think about it. By minimizing available carbs in my diet, I've reduced the amount of insulin I produce, which then allows me to use the fat stored in my cells for fuel. When I'm able to do that, I can rely more on my internal stored energy (fat) and less on constant eating (carb).

    Some people on keto diets fast periodically. I realized recently that I was semi-fasting on the weekends. It wasn't deliberate or conscious. I just wasn't very hungry over the weekend and often ate only one meal a day. Yet, I'm generally very active on weekends, whether riding, hiking, mowing the lawn, or splitting firewood.

    One advantage of a keto diet is the extent to which a person can rely on their hunger to guide when and how much they eat, and less on the clock telling them they ought to eat.

    As for the nay-sayers and catastrophizers, yeah, they're out there. And they sometimes go beyond mild interest and concern that a keto diet may be unhealthy, and go into full "YOU'RE GOING TO DIE HORRIBLY IF YOU DO THIS! YOU MUST EAT CARBS!" mode. That's OK. They don't have to do what I do and I don't have to do what they tell me to do. No problem. However, I remain curious about why they get so passionate over what I eat.
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  87. #87
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    Just to chime in….
    I’ve been on a Keto (more Paleo than not) diet since late March of this year. First thing I noticed when riding (MTB), was that I didn’t have any “bursts” of energy, but, I was quicker overall, probably due to the steady stream of acceptable energy levels, rather than spikes coming and going (depending on how many GU’s I ate during my rides). Since this diet is lacking in electrolytes, which to me is the biggest issue, I’ve simply used an additive to my water to offset any potential cramping.

    Now, I don’t race, and I think I would probably jump back on to a Carb-loading phase if I did, I will say that my daily average is 50-75 grams of carbs per day (that’s where I can keep Ketones in my body), but, if I feel like going above the 100g mark (probably kicking out of Ketosis), I can justify doing that the night before a big ride, because all you’re doing, is a low/modified carb-load and will be doing a “carb detox” the very next morning with that ride, essentially burning said carbs and virtually putting you back into Ketosis the same day (versus waiting the 2-3 days it would take without doing a hard ride). Caveat, know your body as you might have a “bonk” phase in the middle of your ride (I haven’t had that issue, probably because my “carb-load” is minimal, versus say a marathon runner eating 3-4 plates of pasta).

    To offset any “drain” I might feel/incur as a result of being on Keto, I simply supplement with caffeine intake… I like the 5-hour energy shots (1/2 before the ride and the other 1/2 during), or, you can check out your local Wal-Mart for Hydroxycut Caffeine Bars (be cautious, they have 200mg of caffeine per bar – but, similar to one can of Monster or a Starbucks beverage of choice).

    I for one have been VERY successful with this diet, as I have lost nearly 17lbs since April, all the while putting on noticeable muscle-mass/gaining strength (I’m not Hulk by any means, but, I have obtained a smaller waist, bigger shoulders/bi’s/tri’s and quads/calves, as well as just being overall stronger, which has obviously helped my ability to ride (stamina and mobility have increased, with the benefit of lower weight and stronger posture).

    FYI, I’m on a self-modified program, where PROTEIN is my primary nutrient, followed by Fat, then Carbs. I also try to limit my calories to 1,800-2,000kcal per day (which is not a typical Paleo premise), but, the theory still applies… you can’t lose “weight” if you consume more than you burn.

    If anyone’s interested, my GOAL/breakdown is as follows (for an 1,800 kcal day):
    Protein: 140g = 560kcal (1g protein = 4kcal) note: lately this has increased to ~175g per day
    Fat: 115g = 1,040kcal (1g of fat = ~9.1kcal) as protein has increased, fat consumption has decreased to offset the amount of increased protein
    Carbs: 50g = 200kcal (1g of carbs = 4kcal) this has pretty steady at 50-60 per day
    Total: 350g = 1,800kcal per day
    I Hate when the trail trips my bike!

  88. #88
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    Food of choice....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross1200 View Post
    Ps. What do people take on rides?? As snacks and fuel.


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    Foods of choice for me include beef jerky, pecans, and baby food pouches (yes, the kind for infants/toddlers), just make sure they're on the lower carb side. Oh, and I usually have some sort of Atkins chocolate bar in case my sweet tooth kicks in (not "healthy" food by any means, but, keeps me in Keto).
    I Hate when the trail trips my bike!

  89. #89
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    Been doing it for years. My morning rides are also in a fasted state. I just had a reunion with my abs...which I have not seen since High School.
    "Life is way too short to own anything crappy"

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popping Knees View Post
    I failed to mention the greatest thing about being fat adapted is I can have a great ride with out worrying about eating. Fat stores alone can fuel a fast and furious MTB ride.
    Word. Too bad the rest of the people out there refuse to buy into this fact. Never in my life did I ever think I could ride a 3-hour climbing trail epic....completely fat-adapted? At 52, I am feeling better than I ever did at 24...
    "Life is way too short to own anything crappy"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cayenne_Pepa View Post
    Word. Too bad the rest of the people out there refuse to buy into this fact. Never in my life did I ever think I could ride a 3-hour climbing trail epic....completely fat-adapted? At 52, I am feeling better than I ever did at 24...

    there is no such thing as being fat adapted. you also don't need much of a carb intake if you are only doing light exersice, its only when you start to go into medium and high intensity exersice that the burning of glycogen increases. without replenishment your muscles will feel strained. This is the reason light exersise burns more fat than heavy.


    People don't buy into it because its not how our bodies are ment to function. I've been loosing weight slowly just by cutting out sugar/sweeties/cake without any of the side effects of a ketogenic diet.

  92. #92
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    Hi there.

    I went on a fairly strict Keto Diet 3 days ago. Super interested to just see what happens more than anything else. Should be interesting as I am also a pescatarian but seems salmon is ok and I'll eat that shit all day long. I also just came off a 7 day juice fast so I think the whole Keto flu thing is a bit easier perhaps.

    For me, I try to eat healthy but carbs just ruled my diet. And sugar. I ride a TON so I never got fat but I sure as hell never got skinny...just sort of stayed the same. Dropped 13lbs with the juice fast and hoping this diet will bring me down to the sub 170 range which means I will have a 16lb lighter bike than last year. Janky math, sure. I haven't seen sub 170 since high school. I'm 48.5, 5'9".

    What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.

    I'll check in to share progress. One other thing I changed is added running to my routine (3 days a week) and an app that has me doing sit ups almost every day.

    Great health experiment or wild mid-life crisis? Either way, excited to see what happens.
    I'm not sure how this works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.
    squashyo, definitely try it but don't get caught up in the thought that your fat intake should come only from sources you mentioned above. Healthy fats can be found in many places other than dairy sources. Fatty cuts of meat and fish, chicken skin, avocados, olives and assorted oils will add lots of options. One thing to remember is that fat, as a macronutrient, is a little more than twice as calorically dense (9 cal/gr.) as protein or carbohydrate (each at 4 cal/gr.). So while it may seem like a daunting task to eat such a high fat diet, you can look at it this way, you only have to eat half as much in fat calories to equal what you would get in calories from carbohydrate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    ....
    What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.
    ....

    Everything you were ever told...by whom? the food pyramid spoon fed to you by the govment? No thanks...

    Give your body sugar and carbs all day and it will naturally use that as fuel, and youll have to fuel it constantly and regularly ie hummingbirds.

    Give your body healthy fats and such and you'll be able to sleep for months at a time without eating all whilst being able to pretty much being the strongest mammal on the planet; and eat a ton of salmon too. ie grizzly bear.
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    Hi there.
    What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.
    .

    its because of our current sugar intake. fat is the body's first choice energy reserve for everything up to low intensity exersise. If you eat sugar then the body switches to metabolising that. However, eating a lot of fat still isn't good for you and the long term health of this diet are unknown.

    If you stop eating sweets, cakes, sugary drinks, putting extra sugar in etc then you'll still loose weight but not have the effects of lack of carbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    Hi there.

    I went on a fairly strict Keto Diet 3 days ago. Super interested to just see what happens more than anything else. Should be interesting as I am also a pescatarian but seems salmon is ok and I'll eat that shit all day long. I also just came off a 7 day juice fast so I think the whole Keto flu thing is a bit easier perhaps.

    For me, I try to eat healthy but carbs just ruled my diet. And sugar. I ride a TON so I never got fat but I sure as hell never got skinny...just sort of stayed the same. Dropped 13lbs with the juice fast and hoping this diet will bring me down to the sub 170 range which means I will have a 16lb lighter bike than last year. Janky math, sure. I haven't seen sub 170 since high school. I'm 48.5, 5'9".

    What I can't get over is all the fat consumption. It just completely goes against everything I was ever told...it's a little scary. Just loading up on butter, cheese, sour cream...jesus, it's weird.

    I'll check in to share progress. One other thing I changed is added running to my routine (3 days a week) and an app that has me doing sit ups almost every day.

    Great health experiment or wild mid-life crisis? Either way, excited to see what happens.

    sooooo?? How'd it go?? I'm thinking of experimenting this summer with a ketogenic diet
    Last edited by slimphatty; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:35 PM.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanxj View Post
    Everything you were ever told...by whom? the food pyramid spoon fed to you by the govment? No thanks....
    How about every food and health organization on the planet? Look up the dietary recommendations of Japan, Australia, China, Brazil, UK, France, Russia, et al. In fact any country you want. The developed nations all do their own research and determine the best recommendations for their own populations. The U.S. is not the only country that does health and diet research. In fact, the U.S. is lagging Europe and the EFSA on cutting edge research in nutrition.
    If you actually bother to look up other nation's recommendations you will find they are all similar. The minor differences are due to local customs, food availability, and eating patterns. Each country also has some slight differences in how risk versus benefit is assessed. The key point is all over the world independent research with zero connection to US food industry has all reached very similar conclusions.
    So many trails... so little time...

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    riding on ketogenic diet - who's doing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    How about every food and health organization on the planet? Look up the dietary recommendations of Japan, Australia, China, Brazil, UK, France, Russia, et al. In fact any country you want. The developed nations all do their own research and determine the best recommendations for their own populations. The U.S. is not the only country that does health and diet research. In fact, the U.S. is lagging Europe and the EFSA on cutting edge research in nutrition.
    If you actually bother to look up other nation's recommendations you will find they are all similar. The minor differences are due to local customs, food availability, and eating patterns. Each country also has some slight differences in how risk versus benefit is assessed. The key point is all over the world independent research with zero connection to US food industry has all reached very similar conclusions.
    Look outside the box. There's a reason why they want us shoveling crap into out bodies.

    Its called money.

    Ill leave this right here:
    https://youtu.be/KHaCKudtVi0



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    I can't be arsed watching that vid, can you give me a quick review please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toot3344556 View Post
    Look outside the box. There's a reason why they want us shoveling crap into out bodies.

    Its called money.

    Ill leave this right here:
    https://youtu.be/KHaCKudtVi0



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Do you always go to youtube when you want confirmational bias on a topic?
    So many trails... so little time...

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