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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    What % of fat do you guys actually eat when you say "keto"? I eat around 50-50% fat (tracked with Samsung Health app), but I doubt this is really Keto.

    BTW, most of my carbs are raw fruits and vegetables. I limit dairy and meat since that would make me lack fiber, potassium etc.
    My macros based on various keto diet calculators are 150g fat, 140g protein, 30g carbs. Percentages by weight are 47%F 44%P 9%C, and by calories are 67%F 28%P 6%C.

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  2. #202
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    Typically I've been 80% fat, 15-17% protein and 2-5% carbs, when weight training I strive for 70/25/5. Zero sugar, natural berries only, carbs from berries, macadamia and pecans, 90% Cacco chocolate and broccoli. When I feel drained, I add more calories via fats, Avocado...MCT oils etc and it goes away. I'm also 5g/ day sodium during riding....big energy difference
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    My macros based on various keto diet calculators are 150g fat, 140g protein, 30g carbs. Percentages by weight are 47%F 44%P 9%C, and by calories are 67%F 28%P 6%C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Don't Surf View Post
    Typically I've been 80% fat, 15-17% protein and 2-5% carbs, when weight training I strive for 70/25/5. Zero sugar, natural berries only, carbs from berries, macadamia and pecans, 90% Cacco chocolate and broccoli. When I feel drained, I add more calories via fats, Avocado...MCT oils etc and it goes away. I'm also 5g/ day sodium during riding....big energy difference
    Thanks. Yes I meant % on a calorie-basis. My main fat sources are Avocado, nuts, oilve oil (dressing). Greek yogurt provides some. But i have the feeling without eating meat it is hard to do and to get protein at the same time.

    I bought some coconut flakes, but they are not really tasty on their own. I'm trying to avoid artificial things like chocolate (except the chocolate i eat for the taste:-)

    I guess I could eat more nuts and avocado. But I'm not sure if that gets old over time. I'm looking for a calcium source and till i find some i drink more milk. Oranges and Kiwis have calcium, but would require to eat a few of those, which would be quite some sugar.
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  4. #204
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    What's artificial about chocolate? Good quality dark chocolate has very little sugar, although the cocoa itself has some carbs so don't go crazy.

    I've been making my own high-fat (like 22-23%) yogurt. It's delicious and very satisfying.

    Someone mentioned cashews. Be careful with those as they are pretty starchy.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    I guess I could eat more nuts and avocado. But I'm not sure if that gets old over time. I'm looking for a calcium source and till i find some i drink more milk. Oranges and Kiwis have calcium, but would require to eat a few of those, which would be quite some sugar.
    I don't know that I could do it without nuts. They're a nice replacement for a handful of chips/crackers here and there.

    I started out drinking almond milk, lots of calcium and low carb, but have switched to low carb regular milk to get more calories. Even regular whole milk occasionally. And the low carb chocolate milk is great. Avocado is fantastic on salads, and in breakfast burritos with eggs, cheese, and green chili (with low carb tortilla). Getting enough fat is still difficult, so I snack on cheese, and add creme to the eggs I scramble for my morning omelette or burrito. Smoked salmon has a good amount too, and I eat that for lunch a lot.

    Are you doing this full vegan? That would be tough.

  6. #206
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    Just to come back and contribute to the thread that I bumped the other day....

    I've been in Keto now for about 3.5 months. I did 60 miles and 5hr 50min at the Ouachita Challenge at about 2.5 months of Keto. It was a B-race for me and I accomplished my goal of top 25 in my class with a 24th place finish. Interesting stat is that according to Strava I burned 4700 calories during that ride....and I only took in 450 calories exogenously. I based my calorie consumption on some of the strategy that I gleaned from the Zach Bitter content that was linked to earlier in the thread. I.e. I made sure I was in Ketosis the morning of the event and I only took in carbs via HammerGel (low sugars) every hour beginning about 1.5 min into event. Truth was, I ended up finding even that was too much/many carbs. So about 3/4 thru I stopped consuming them and still finished very strong. I've done MANY rides now in the 4-5 hr range and found I really don't need to consume any calories.

    A very important part of my riding nutrition is that I've found I need to take in some sweet potato (specifically) carbs the night before a legit ride. Otherwise, I find that I feel a bit flat during medium-high output rides. Additionally, I feel like sweet potatoes are the key for me. I've experimented with white potatoes, other veggie carbs (broccoli, carrots, strawberry, beans, etc) and SP work perfectly for me. I *feel* better with them added in...and I don't get kicked out of ketosis like has happened a few time with other carb experimentations.

    So here are some question I've got. If anyone has any insight or feedback, then I'd much appreciate it.

    -I've been kicked out of ketosis 3x's now. All 3x's its been a little bit of a surprise. I feel like with high-glycemic carbs (such as 4 sips of wine, and small bits of matzo at Passover and small serving of butternut squash), I pop right outa Ketosis. I'm measuring with urine strips.

    Here are my questions:
    -Anyone else had any experiences like this?
    -Is it possible that I'm still *IN* ketosis but the urine strips are just not accurate enough considering that I'm pretty much now fat-adapted?
    -It takes me about 48 hrs for my color to change back on the strips. Would this mean that if I went on a bigger ride, that I'd now be subject to quick hunger pains and bonking during this time?

    These questions have caused me to start tracking my macros. I've been doing so for about 8 days now and they're pretty much exactly what I thought they'd be. I'm at a 70/20/10 ratio of caloric percentages. And I'm sitting around 2-2.5 to 1 of fat to protein when measured in grams.

    Sorry for the long reply. This has just been one of the best places for me to receive and then share info as it specifically relates to my eating method and subsequent athletic activity (cycling)!

    Thanks
    CJB

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    So here are some question I've got. If anyone has any insight or feedback, then I'd much appreciate it.

    -I've been kicked out of ketosis 3x's now. All 3x's its been a little bit of a surprise. I feel like with high-glycemic carbs (such as 4 sips of wine, and small bits of matzo at Passover and small serving of butternut squash), I pop right outa Ketosis. I'm measuring with urine strips.

    Here are my questions:
    -Anyone else had any experiences like this?
    -Is it possible that I'm still *IN* ketosis but the urine strips are just not accurate enough considering that I'm pretty much now fat-adapted?
    -It takes me about 48 hrs for my color to change back on the strips. Would this mean that if I went on a bigger ride, that I'd now be subject to quick hunger pains and bonking during this time?
    My understanding is that once you're fat adapted, the strips aren't reliable, and are really more an indicator of hydration.

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  8. #208
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    I don't have anything to back this up, but my feeling is that once you're fat-adapted, your moment-to-moment ketone levels are not important because your adaptation isn't undone as soon as your ketones drop. As long as you're not habitually eating enough carbs to undo your adaptation, I think you should be fine. I would speculate that you'd probably have to completely fall off the wagon for a week or more to have significant impact on your ability to use fat for fuel.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    I don't have anything to back this up, but my feeling is that once you're fat-adapted, your moment-to-moment ketone levels are not important because your adaptation isn't undone as soon as your ketones drop. As long as you're not habitually eating enough carbs to undo your adaptation, I think you should be fine. I would speculate that you'd probably have to completely fall off the wagon for a week or more to have significant impact on your ability to use fat for fuel.
    THIS^^^ is another question I've pondered.

    For instance, could I roll into a ride (being fully adapted), but not in actual ketosis and still not need to eat for 4-5hrs of steady riding? Related tangent: Here's Zach Bitters Phase 3 periodization overview. Its the phase were is macros are highest in carbs.
    https://zachbitter.com/blog/2017/05/...pecified_phase Does he still maintain a state of Ketosis at these levels during his training?

    I guess part of what I'm asking is that once I'm almost fully fat-adapted, what does a full state of nutritional ketosis do (or not do) for my riding & training?

    My carb consumption is pretty low. I'd bet I've been keeping it under 30-35 grams a day. However, I do feel a bit flat on basic (fun) rides. However, on rides that I know will require some output, I pre-eat my sweet potato and fell pretty darn good during the ride the next day. I think I'm going to purchase a blood ketone meter so that I can measure exactly what's going on with my food experimentation and blood levels.

    In summary though, when I re-read my post, it may sound like I'm frustrated. Thats not the case at all; I'm more so intrigued. I've been doing this essentially as a physiological experiment and I want to get the most out of it. I know thats not currently the case. Because when I look at my cumulative riding summary on Strava, with the kind of riding/racing/training I've been doing I'd normally be further along. Thus, I'm looking to try and unlock that mystery with some of these dialogues and questions.

    Thanks again fellas, keep it coming!

    Later,
    CJB

  10. #210
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    I'm very low carb avg 2-5%, not the fastest on local trails, but top 10-25% per Strava most. The only thing I feel I lack at all is the "burst" in the first 5 min of my ride while I'm still anerobic, once I'm aerobic, I'm golden. I'm not sold on tje carb load on day before riding, because chemically you only process carbs one way, and they burn quickly, leaving no reserve. Don't know, maybe the benefit felt is more vitamins supplement? I do Sodium load day before though.
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  11. #211
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    Due to some of the questions I've been rolling around with, and some the topics that have been brought up recently, I've been out searching/reading the net for info. I ran across this 3 part blog post that seems to be pretty informative. It gets very close to answering some of my specific questions. The only really missing piece is that I'd like to see it tied in directly to athletic performance, rather that slanted towards weight loss.

    Tuit Nutrition: Being Fat Adapted Versus "In Ketosis" (Pt.1/3)

    Ya'll have a good weekend.
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  12. #212
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    The wife and I watched this documentary on Netflix last night. Really mind blowing stuff. If you have any friends or family who are skeptical of the whole keto thing, share this documentary with them.




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  13. #213
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    Just startec eating keto myself. I have been following the thread. I see the problem with this doc that they push the gluten free, non gmo, organic crap. This diet has proven effects while this other stuff in junk science. It really undermines the science to most edjucated observers.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo 1971 View Post
    It really undermines the science to most edjucated observers.
    Having an opinion doesn't make you educated, or correct.


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  15. #215
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    Science does prove me correct. It is not an opinion.

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    The rest of the doc is pretty darn good.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo 1971 View Post
    Science does prove me correct. It is not an opinion.
    Some people DO actually have issues with gluten. It's actually a disease.
    Some people DO have chemical sensitivities that are addressed by organic foods.
    Some people DO prefer to eat food that is how god intended.

    What I find interesting is how people like you are somehow morally offended at the mere mention of organic, non-gmo, gluten free.


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  18. #218
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    Your missing me entirley. It is a waste of money. Your welcome to spend your money on that stuff. If it is not proven by science why try to push people. Time and time again it is proven that organic food is just a label. That is a fact. Gluten free is not helping you unles you have celiac disease. GMO has been happening since man started farming. We should focus more on getting away from harmful fats like corn oil, margarine etc. So I did voice my opinion on that doc based of FACTS. Not huggy bear feel good hippy psuedo science. Not offended or any personal attack. This doc hamstrings itself on psuedo science and half truths.

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    "People like me" you dont know me except for a couple paragraphs. That was pretty rude.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo 1971 View Post
    If it is not proven by science why try to push people.
    Would that be the same science that sold us high carb, low fat diets as a path to health an well being for the past 50 years? The same science that has told us fat is bad for us for the past 50 years?

    Strange that you're willing to throw over those teachings, which are still widely accepted as "scientific fact", but unwilling to consider that they might be wrong about other things.

    Your use of the phrase "hippy psuedo science", tells me your objection to Organic, Non-GMO, gluten free, etc. is probably politically based, which is pretty typical.

    Think what you want. Believe you're somehow intellectually superior in your allegiance to "science". Whatever. I'm done with you on the topic. Thanks for mucking up a good thread with your personal politics.

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  21. #221
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    Dont be butt hurt home cheese. Some things in life are just facts. If you disagree with proven scientific fact the burden of proof is on you. Show me I am all ears. I did not come here to troll or be berated. You posted a link and gave my opinion. Fathead on youtube is much better with less bologna. Watch it. You like it. Cant we just be friends?

  22. #222
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    In any case.....check it out guys!

    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    The wife and I watched this documentary on Netflix last night. Really mind blowing stuff. If you have any friends or family who are skeptical of the whole keto thing, share this documentary with them.




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  23. #223
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    Anyone have luck eating keto when the rest of your family isn't interested? I did keto for a while and felt great but my wife isn't interested, which often meant nearly completely different meals for myself vs what her and the kids were eating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy79 View Post
    Anyone have luck eating keto when the rest of your family isn't interested? I did keto for a while and felt great but my wife isn't interested, which often meant nearly completely different meals for myself vs what her and the kids were eating.
    That's why I have such a battle. I have to make separate food all the time. So I'll go for a while then fall off when things get too crazy like right now with 2 kids in separate sports.

    I do watch my carb intake though. I avoid pasta as much as possible, I have separate bread that is really low actual carbs (really high fiber). 2 pieces is less carbs than 1 piece of regular bread.

    I've found I can only do ketone instead of just low carb when I'm not training/riding hard constantly. My endurance is fine but I'm at about 1/2 power and ability to maintain climbs is gone. But just watching my carbs I keep my ketone level endurance without dying. I accidentally eat too many carbs and I feel like crap though. Delicate balance for me almost as if I'm still in ketosis but I'm eating 100-150g of carbs a day, really hard day of riding I end up with slightly more than 150.

    I dont have test strips or anything though.

    I can say though my entire house could use a major carb reduction including my oldest boy.

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  25. #225
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    Chime in time. I was Keto for 1.5 years until this week. It was friggin' great up until about 3 months ago. I was fit as heck, blood pressure normalized, etc. Then I got blood work done this last quarter and LDLs were really high. Then I started getting headaches everyday (only at night for some reason), and my heart beat was crazy strong (i could feel the pounding of my pulse in my head and body. I tried to eliminate foods like chocolate and coffee but the headaches were relentless. I finally quit Keto last week. Bummed about it because carb living is hard...I'm always hungry...but the headaches did go away.

    Not sure what to do but might give vegan a try.

    Keto is amazing but I learned it wasn't for me. Wish it was...I got pretty ripped and fit.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    Chime in time. I was Keto for 1.5 years until this week. It was friggin' great up until about 3 months ago. I was fit as heck, blood pressure normalized, etc. Then I got blood work done this last quarter and LDLs were really high. Then I started getting headaches everyday (only at night for some reason), and my heart beat was crazy strong (i could feel the pounding of my pulse in my head and body. I tried to eliminate foods like chocolate and coffee but the headaches were relentless. I finally quit Keto last week. Bummed about it because carb living is hard...I'm always hungry...but the headaches did go away.

    Not sure what to do but might give vegan a try.

    Keto is amazing but I learned it wasn't for me. Wish it was...I got pretty ripped and fit.
    This happens to me if I eat a lot of beef. And believe it or not no alcohol. Beef can convert into glucose easily compare to other protein sources. And its speculated that sugar is put in it to improve flavor. 2 diabetics I know need insulin after eating beef but not with chicken or eggs.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    That's why I have such a battle. I have to make separate food all the time. So I'll go for a while then fall off when things get too crazy like right now with 2 kids in separate sports.

    I do watch my carb intake though. I avoid pasta as much as possible, I have separate bread that is really low actual carbs (really high fiber). 2 pieces is less carbs than 1 piece of regular bread.

    I've found I can only do ketone instead of just low carb when I'm not training/riding hard constantly. My endurance is fine but I'm at about 1/2 power and ability to maintain climbs is gone. But just watching my carbs I keep my ketone level endurance without dying. I accidentally eat too many carbs and I feel like crap though. Delicate balance for me almost as if I'm still in ketosis but I'm eating 100-150g of carbs a day, really hard day of riding I end up with slightly more than 150.

    I dont have test strips or anything though.

    I can say though my entire house could use a major carb reduction including my oldest boy.

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    Daily meals with people that don't keto is possible. A meat, veggie and starch. You don't eat the starch. I'll eat an avacodo instead. It's also ok to have a cheat meal every now and then. I do it about every 10days to 2 weeks. It actually increases your metabolism.

  28. #228
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    That's what I was doing but it gets very difficult when wife does the grocery shopping and everything is carb related. It's possible but it's a nightmare to try and do right now being so busy here. So I just do my best to watch my carbs and keep them as low as I can. I need to do solid several weeks of it again soon though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
    No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.
    THere are serious long term health concerns with a keto diet. You can cut weight quickly in a month, but most of it is water weight.

    I tried it once, and found i got really bad muscle cramps when doing cardio on a keto diet.

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    There's no health risk with a keto diet. There is a health risk if you eat the wrong foods. Its fun to eat stake, sausage, bacon and wings. But you shouldn't live on it. Chicken, salmon, avacodo, raw almonds, coconut oil and peanut butter tons of greens...and a low carb alcoholic beverage will give you great blood work and be very healthy.

    Have a carb up cheat day weekly or bi weekly and your thyroid will work just fine.

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesPM View Post
    THere are serious long term health concerns with a keto diet.
    Nope, especially compared to a high carb / low fat diet. But let me guess.....is a scientific fact?

    You can cut weight quickly in a month, but most of it is water weight.
    First week maybe, first month, not even close to being accurate. And the people I know who have lost 60 pounds? Yeah, it's obviously mostly fat they've lost.


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  32. #232
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    I have found that cutting carbs down almost out during the week. Then the night before a big ride, eats some carbs. Then some good carbs the morning of the ride. Fuel normal during the ride. Some recovery carbs after has really boosted my performance during that ride. I feel great the next day. I am still loosing a 2-3lbs a week. Feeling better than sub 30 carbs. I am averaging 60-80 carbs a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    There's no health risk with a keto diet. There is a health risk if you eat the wrong foods. Its fun to eat stake, sausage, bacon and wings. But you shouldn't live on it. Chicken, salmon, avacodo, raw almonds, coconut oil and peanut butter tons of greens...and a low carb alcoholic beverage will give you great blood work and be very healthy.

    Have a carb up cheat day weekly or bi weekly and your thyroid will work just fine.
    Actually this can be right or wrong. Depends on genetics. High fat diet regardless of main types of fat can end badly. There is good and bad fats, all fat is a mix of them. But foods with good fats have very small amounts of bad fats by comparison. But still bad and too much causes issues.

    There is a lot of research showing keto diets for too long are bad for your health. Your body is meant to run on a balance. No one in history lived longer on a keto diet. If it was a great thing and not high risk for heart health the diet would be more widely used.

    Instead there is a tipping point. The problem isnt carbs, it's the type of carbs. Proper carbs in proper amounts are needed to maintain balance. Keto is an extreme measure to deplete body fat (great thing till you hit a certain point) and treat medical conditions by exhausting food supply for said issues where as the body can adapt for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Actually this can be right or wrong. Depends on genetics. High fat diet regardless of main types of fat can end badly. There is good and bad fats, all fat is a mix of them. But foods with good fats have very small amounts of bad fats by comparison. But still bad and too much causes issues.

    There is a lot of research showing keto diets for too long are bad for your health. Your body is meant to run on a balance. No one in history lived longer on a keto diet. If it was a great thing and not high risk for heart health the diet would be more widely used.

    Instead there is a tipping point. The problem isnt carbs, it's the type of carbs. Proper carbs in proper amounts are needed to maintain balance. Keto is an extreme measure to deplete body fat (great thing till you hit a certain point) and treat medical conditions by exhausting food supply for said issues where as the body can adapt for a while.

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    You're stuck in the past man. All that "science" the medical establishment has been pushing for the past 50 years is a lie, based on one egomaniac's theory. Modern research clearly shows a high fat low carb diet to be almost universally good for humans. It's how we're supposed to eat. Turn the food pyramid upside down, and you've got a good starting point.


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    ^^^^agree. Itís going to take a long time for people to adjust their thinking and realize what weíve been taught is all wrong. Iím 100% on board with low carb high fat and no sugar. Still experimenting on how low I can go with the carbs and still have energy on the bike. Yesterday I ate a ribeye, avocado, and 3 eggs at 11am....at 1:30pm I rode 13 miles on a tough trail that took about an hour and a half. I was whipped because itís a tough trail and I was riding with guys who were flying...but I had energy.

  36. #236
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    "Science" you act like science is automatically false information. The problem stems back into the 1970s and politicians putting the hammer down and pushing their non scientific beliefs. Threatening to remove funding from those that dont promote pre conceived notions. Watch this. The second half speaks of how we got our messed up food pyrmids. Just watch it and you will be amazed at this sham that has been in place for so long. https://youtu.be/evcNPfZlrZs

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    Carbs are the most readily available fuel source we have. I think a big part of why keto works so well is simply that you cut out the crap from your diet. Shift to meat and veggies. Healthy fats. Carbs should not ne demonized either. They are our quickest fuel source (although in general we eat too many).
    https://peterattiamd.com/ketosis-adv...-state-part-i/

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Actually this can be right or wrong. Depends on genetics. High fat diet regardless of main types of fat can end badly. There is good and bad fats, all fat is a mix of them. But foods with good fats have very small amounts of bad fats by comparison. But still bad and too much causes issues.

    There is a lot of research showing keto diets for too long are bad for your health. Your body is meant to run on a balance. No one in history lived longer on a keto diet. If it was a great thing and not high risk for heart health the diet would be more widely used.

    Instead there is a tipping point. The problem isnt carbs, it's the type of carbs. Proper carbs in proper amounts are needed to maintain balance. Keto is an extreme measure to deplete body fat (great thing till you hit a certain point) and treat medical conditions by exhausting food supply for said issues where as the body can adapt for a while.

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    The Escomo people are an example of keto lifestyle other than a slow metabolism they were one of the healthiest until recently adding carbs to their diet. I'm not anti carb. If you're at a healthy weight eating fruit is very healthy, or a weekly carb up day to keep metabolism optimal.

    Also people are scared of saturated fats in foods. In natural setting these protect the unsaturated fat from oxidation (eating rancid good fat isn't good for you) the saturated fat in free range chicken and butter is good for you in small quantities.

    There isn't a 100% diet for everyone. If you're healthy and have good blood tests you're probably doing just fine.

    If my diet gets over 25% carbs my inflammation markers and lipids are not good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    You're stuck in the past man. All that "science" the medical establishment has been pushing for the past 50 years is a lie, based on one egomaniac's theory. Modern research clearly shows a high fat low carb diet to be almost universally good for humans. It's how we're supposed to eat. Turn the food pyramid upside down, and you've got a good starting point.


    .
    Somebody watched "The Magic Pill". I 100% agree with you and the film. High Fat/Low carb is natures prescribed diet for humans.

    In the off season I'm Keto, during the race season I add a wee bit more carbs in the diet mostly before, during, and after races.

    For reference I'm 155lbs 5.7%bodyfat verified by Dexa scan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Somebody watched "The Magic Pill". I 100% agree with you and the film. High Fat/Low carb is natures prescribed diet for humans.

    In the off season I'm Keto, during the race season I add a wee bit more carbs in the diet mostly before, during, and after races.

    For reference I'm 155lbs 5.7%bodyfat verified by Dexa scan.
    Haven't seen the doc yet. Mid 2017 I tried vegan. I still avoided a lot of grain. After 6 months my blood works was worse and I was 10ls over weight, with less muscle. And before anyone says I didn't do it right...I've researched, and have been experimenting with diet and blood work for over 20 years. Was in the powerlifting and bodybuilding community and food is everything there.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Somebody watched "The Magic Pill". I 100% agree with you and the film. High Fat/Low carb is natures prescribed diet for humans.

    In the off season I'm Keto, during the race season I add a wee bit more carbs in the diet mostly before, during, and after races.

    For reference I'm 155lbs 5.7%bodyfat verified by Dexa scan.
    Yup. What I've noticed in my personal experience is that eating for health, and eating to be fast on a bike aren't the same thing. I spent years figuring out what to eat, and when, to make myself faster on a bike, and it worked. What it didn't do was make me healthy. Years after I quit racing, but still eating the same way, I've been chronically overweight, high blood pressure, elevated cholesterol, etc.....but still fast on the bike. I'm currently about 16 pounds lighter on keto, blood pressure is lower, feeling better in general, but WAY slower on the bike. I have no doubt that I could "sugar up", and lay down some faster times, but I don't know that I care. I'm not racing anymore, and I like being able to ride for hours without eating or bonking. It's like being super-human or something.

    When I get down to a 30 pound weight loss, I'm going to put in some maximal efforts on known segments and see how my lighter weight keto fueled body compares to my heavier sugar fueled body.


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    Jut ran across a recent Zach Bitter interview on JRE podcast. Good news is that this one is a shorter podcast (for JRE).

    https://youtu.be/RsO61ZsihQM

    There's some good info in the bulk of the conversation. Zach does talk in detail about his relationship with Ketosis and higher training loads with regards to his nutrition. But the podcast does starts to wander towards the end.

    Later,
    CJB

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    I don't have a horse in this race....but have experimented over the years with various diets. I've read Weston Price stuff, years before it was popular. Dabbled in Atkins way back in the day. Tried the Paleo thing, whole 30, etc, etc.

    I've come to the realization that that 'healthy' means different things to different folks. Health regarding performance is much different then health regarding longevity.

    I read the Blue Zone book which is essentially aligns to the age old adage, everything in moderation including moderation.

    Science can try an explain x, y or z, but proof is in the pudding, the longest lived people in general eat little meat, lots of veggies, moderate carbs and very little sugar.

    https://www.bluezones.com/recipes/food-guidelines/

    With that said, that may not be everybody's baseline for 'health'. Getting ripped may be, or lowering cholesterol, or being strong, or having explosive power on the
    bike...or maybe being able to ride for 5 hrs without bonking - each of which likely require a different diet strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    The Escomo people are an example of keto lifestyle other than a slow metabolism they were one of the healthiest until recently adding carbs to their diet. I'm not anti carb. If you're at a healthy weight eating fruit is very healthy, or a weekly carb up day to keep metabolism optimal.

    Also people are scared of saturated fats in foods. In natural setting these protect the unsaturated fat from oxidation (eating rancid good fat isn't good for you) the saturated fat in free range chicken and butter is good for you in small quantities.

    There isn't a 100% diet for everyone. If you're healthy and have good blood tests you're probably doing just fine.

    If my diet gets over 25% carbs my inflammation markers and lipids are not good.
    I was under the same impression also but I think there is some more recent research questioning the original studies....

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/neal-...b_5268420.html

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    I started the keto diet because high blood sugar runs in my family and my was creeping up big time. Last A1C was 9.2. After a week on keto and first week on meds (Metformin) my sugar was in the 60's...too low. Dr took me off the meds immediately and my BG levels have been great ever since. I expect my next A1C to be in mid to low 5's at next round of bloodwork.

    My macros are at

    105g fat
    137g Protein
    <20 net carbs

    60% fat
    35% protein
    5 carbs

    I have the ketostix too but got weird results so just splurged and got the precision Xtreme ketone blood test monitor and will check every week or so. It's pricey to test ketones daily.

    I do need to figure out some good riding snacks. I eat a ton of eggs and egg whites, salmon, lettuce wrapped burgers, pork rinds, salads, spinach/kale and preteen shakes with unsweetened almond milk. So far so good. Jimmy Moore's book Keto Clerity got me started...highly recommend. Free on Amazon via audible download.

    Any good mid ride snacks that are keto friendly?

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    I also just just started back on Keto (again). Im in my second week currently and it seems to be going much slower this time. I think just now the "flu" has started to kick in. Although it is hard to tell since I work third shift and generally feel like that more often than not. lol

    @coyote_lover, try nuts. Macadamia and Pecans specifically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote_Lover View Post
    Any good mid ride snacks that are keto friendly?
    If I take food along it's generally just summer sausage and cheese, but my wife has been making some keto chocolate chip cookie dough things lately that might work well.

    I've also made keto breakfast biscuits that were very portable and tastey...basically an almond flour dough with breakfast sausage and cheese inside. https://howtothisandthat.com/keto-breakfast-biscuits/

    .

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    @coyote_lover- I've been on this plan for a bit over 5 mos now. Out of habit and uncertainty, I've always carried food with me. But I found that once I was fully fat-adapted (around 5 week mark), I really didn't NEED to consume anything on rides. It was all done just from a habitual pattern. I've not carried anything with me for the past month now. I can easily do 4-5 hrs rides with no food.

    All that being said, these are some of the things that I did (or will) carry if needed.
    -nuts: almonds, walnuts, pumpkin seeds combo
    -a few Duke's shorty sausages
    -Primal Kitchen Macadamia Nut Bar: This is prolly the closest thing to the carrying an old-school cliff bar type product. The macros are good and then ingredients are very clean
    https://www.amazon.com/Primal-Kitche...mia%2Bbar&th=1
    -Quest Nutrition Bar- same as above just not as clean of ingredients IMHO
    -Lastly I've tried to carry MCT oil with me too. I think it can work as a fuel source, but I've not figured out a decent carrying method.

    Hope this helps.
    -CJB

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    @coyote_lover- I've been on this plan for a bit over 5 mos now. Out of habit and uncertainty, I've always carried food with me. But I found that once I was fully fat-adapted (around 5 week mark), I really didn't NEED to consume anything on rides. It was all done just from a habitual pattern. I've not carried anything with me for the past month now. I can easily do 4-5 hrs rides with no food.

    All that being said, these are some of the things that I did (or will) carry if needed.
    -nuts: almonds, walnuts, pumpkin seeds combo
    -a few Duke's shorty sausages
    -Primal Kitchen Macadamia Nut Bar: This is prolly the closest thing to the carrying an old-school cliff bar type product. The macros are good and then ingredients are very clean
    https://www.amazon.com/Primal-Kitche...mia%2Bbar&th=1
    -Quest Nutrition Bar- same as above just not as clean of ingredients IMHO
    -Lastly I've tried to carry MCT oil with me too. I think it can work as a fuel source, but I've not figured out a decent carrying method.

    Hope this helps.
    -CJB
    I mix liquid coconut oil (this is MCT oil just cheaper) and natural peanut butter so it's got some flavor and not so runny. I put it in a travel squeeze tube. I rarely feel the need to eat, I normally take some electrolytes tabs since I don't eat and am losing them.

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    I rarely feel the need to eat, I normally take some electrolytes tabs since I don't eat and am losing them.
    Thanks for the PB tip, I may try that sometime.

    You hit on what I feel is the bigger need to work out and thats electrolytes and non-water liquids. I've been using this stuff for my bigger rides (something more than a commute or short playful stuff). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...1?ie=UTF8&th=1 Its an exogenous ketone salt and I bought it to help my wife and I during our 1st two weeks of transitioning. However, when I look at the electrolyte and mineral content it looks strong. Additionally, its very hight in sodium too. I'd prefer if it was cheeper, but in all reality I can get it to last me at least 2 months.

    Any other suggestions for non-carb/sugar fueling?

    Thanks
    CJB

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    Thanks for the PB tip, I may try that sometime.

    You hit on what I feel is the bigger need to work out and thats electrolytes and non-water liquids. I've been using this stuff for my bigger rides (something more than a commute or short playful stuff). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...1?ie=UTF8&th=1 Its an exogenous ketone salt and I bought it to help my wife and I during our 1st two weeks of transitioning. However, when I look at the electrolyte and mineral content it looks strong. Additionally, its very hight in sodium too. I'd prefer if it was cheeper, but in all reality I can get it to last me at least 2 months.

    Any other suggestions for non-carb/sugar fueling?

    Thanks
    CJB
    Sadly needing suppliments like this are why ketone is so bad for long periods. Your body is not meant to operate without proper nutrition. Why one's like Eskimos have so much shorter life spans than those that simply eat a vegetable/fruit rich diet.

    Not to mention that suppliment way overloads on some things and completely misses 2 that are very hard to come by. Potassium and Magnesium. Those others can and will cause damage in those amounts if taken like that for too long.

    Feel bad for so many on this diet, they see the weight loss effects and keep going not realizing they are completely destroying their health once they get to healthy fat levels. But to each their own.

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  52. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Sadly needing suppliments like this are why ketone is so bad for long periods. Your body is not meant to operate without proper nutrition. Why one's like Eskimos have so much shorter life spans than those that simply eat a vegetable/fruit rich diet.

    Not to mention that suppliment way overloads on some things and completely misses 2 that are very hard to come by. Potassium and Magnesium. Those others can and will cause damage in those amounts if taken like that for too long.

    Feel bad for so many on this diet, they see the weight loss effects and keep going not realizing they are completely destroying their health once they get to healthy fat levels. But to each their own.

    Sorry compadre, but I'm not here in this thread to debate the merits or dangers of this diet with anyone. I personally am doing it as a physiological experiment to "see what happens". I didn't have any carb-issues prior to this and I was already at my lowest weight in many years. Additionally, my Dr is a close personal friend and a fairly serious cyclist too. We've been doing regular blood work this entire time and everything checks out fine.

    My participation in this thread is to share ideas, concepts and experiences with other like-minded HFLC athletes. As such, when I moved away from glucose based nutrition, I've never really found a targeted electrolyte drink to replace the one I was using prior (Scratch Labs). If you have a few suggestions, then I'm all-ears. If you want to bag on my nutritional experiment, please feel free to start a new post debating the merits and dangers of a Keto-athlete lifestyle.

    Later,
    CJB

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    Nope not at all, kudos for experimenting to see how things work out. Your being closely monitored to keep track of everything and that's good. However most don't.

    It's not you I'm referring to directly, many state they have been on the diet for long periods (and try to claim it's the best diet for the human body). Both the diet and the suppliments aren't what these others are making then out.

    Like no one has mentioned on of the biggest things to each on the diet. Much of the Reason my blood tests and everything are far better than they should be. Hemp hearts. Healthy fats and probably the best source for Magnesium there is that's keto friendly.

    My simple matter is some suppliments should send up automatic red flags, especially being a ketone diet suppliment lacking on the most important electrolytes the body needs.

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  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Nope not at all, kudos for experimenting to see how things work out. Your being closely monitored to keep track of everything and that's good. However most don't.

    It's not you I'm referring to directly, many state they have been on the diet for long periods (and try to claim it's the best diet for the human body). Both the diet and the suppliments aren't what these others are making then out.

    Like no one has mentioned on of the biggest things to each on the diet. Much of the Reason my blood tests and everything are far better than they should be. Hemp hearts. Healthy fats and probably the best source for Magnesium there is that's keto friendly.

    My simple matter is some suppliments should send up automatic red flags, especially being a ketone diet suppliment lacking on the most important electrolytes the body needs.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    And I think we can all agree a large portion of the mineral deficiency is because of lack of water retention. Stay hydrated, make sure you have healthy salts (like Himalayan pink salt) and you wont have near as much issue with mineral deficiency.

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    Has anyone thrown coffee/butter/coconut(or MCT) oil into the Keto mix? Although it seems to be a growing fad. I've been feeling pretty good in the morning drinking this on a Keto diet. Both on rides and non ride days, I'll have this coffee mix and nothing else until lunch. I should mention that my rides are usually 10-15 miles max.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Has anyone thrown coffee/butter/coconut(or MCT) oil into the Keto mix? Although it seems to be a growing fad. I've been feeling pretty good in the morning drinking this on a Keto diet. Both on rides and non ride days, I'll have this coffee mix and nothing else until lunch. I should mention that my rides are usually 10-15 miles max.
    I drink coffee/1 tbsp butter/heavy cream nearly every day this time, as well as the last time I did keto a few years ago. Some days Ill substitute coconut oil for the butter (basically MCT's)

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    I drink coffee/1 tbsp butter/heavy cream nearly every day this time, as well as the last time I did keto a few years ago. Some days Ill substitute coconut oil for the butter (basically MCT's)
    Try both with a quick spin in the blender, as long as it stays hot, it's pretty good.

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    Try both with a quick spin in the blender, as long as it stays hot, it's pretty good.
    Right on.

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    I love this coffee combination and sometimes Iíll throw a half scoop of vanilla protein powder in the blender too which is actually a great sweetener with very few carbs or sugar at all and a little protein boost and makes it taste like a mild latteÖ Bullet proof coffee is awesome

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote_Lover View Post
    I love this coffee combination and sometimes Iíll throw a half scoop of vanilla protein powder in the blender too which is actually a great sweetener with very few carbs or sugar at all and a little protein boost and makes it taste like a mild latteÖ Bullet proof coffee is awesome
    I will have to check out the protein powder.

    Agreed, it's very good. I was absolutely skeptical of the fad/hype, and I'm sure as hell not paying for the branded bullet proof stuff. But after a month or so, I absolutely feel and notice the benefits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokee300 View Post
    I will have to check out the protein powder.

    Agreed, it's very good. I was absolutely skeptical of the fad/hype, and I'm sure as hell not paying for the branded bullet proof stuff. But after a month or so, I absolutely feel and notice the benefits.
    I personally won't add the protein powder as I'm already over my protein goal for macros 95% of the time.

    But I'm sure it's delicious!

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  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    And I think we can all agree a large portion of the mineral deficiency is because of lack of water retention. Stay hydrated, make sure you have healthy salts (like Himalayan pink salt) and you wont have near as much issue with mineral deficiency.
    Another good point. Even though, I don't carry around as much stored water weight as I did prior to Keto, I've also experienced MUCH less cramping since I've begun. Its gently perplexing, because I'd have guessed it would be the opposite. My theory is that it may be my higher supplementation of the himalayan salt I've been focusing on in helps to try and better retain hydration. Whatever the case, I've had no noticeable cramping issues since I started keto 5.5 months ago. Anecdotally, I have been eating MUCH more salads and such during this time too. YMMV

    Later,
    CJB

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    And I think we can all agree a large portion of the mineral deficiency is because of lack of water retention. Stay hydrated, make sure you have healthy salts (like Himalayan pink salt) and you wont have near as much issue with mineral deficiency.
    Carbs help hide the fact that our veggies don't have the minerals they should since the soil is depleted. Carbs or electrolytes hold water, carbs will bloat the intestines minerals keep everything in balance.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Sadly needing suppliments like this are why ketone is so bad for long periods. Your body is not meant to operate without proper nutrition. Why one's like Eskimos have so much shorter life spans than those that simply eat a vegetable/fruit rich diet.

    Not to mention that suppliment way overloads on some things and completely misses 2 that are very hard to come by. Potassium and Magnesium. Those others can and will cause damage in those amounts if taken like that for too long.

    Feel bad for so many on this diet, they see the weight loss effects and keep going not realizing they are completely destroying their health once they get to healthy fat levels. But to each their own.

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    Eskimos have a short life span since the introduction of western diet. The human body can do well on fat or carbs as fuel, depending on genetics and region. When you mix the 2 is when you develop serious problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Eskimos have a short life span since the introduction of western diet. The human body can do well on fat or carbs as fuel, depending on genetics and region. When you mix the 2 is when you develop serious problems.
    Might do you some good to do some research. Really dig into it. You'll find a heavy meat/fat based diet isn't what you have been led to believe. Where you got your information is actually quite false as you will learn if you take the time.

    You say I'm stuck in the old ways of how prograganda was pushed. Yet I'm actually not because I agree high carbs are bad. But now your thinking Ketone applies to everyone yet those cultures who's people easily push 100yrs old, none of them have a and overly high fat diet. It's highly plant based, proper Low carbs and limited amounts of meat.

    Some good reading is dig into "blue zone"

    Keto diet is everywhere, it's the new fad but it melts fat quickly. But at what costs??? Because people are going to be doing it wrong.

    It works for SOME. If your genetics are that way. But high carbs, red meat possibly (more so your standard farm raised garbage) and processed foods are the problem which includes tons of sugars and processed vegetable oils

    Monitor your health and figure out what works, look at your genetics and see what you come from. Keep carbs low and natural, stick to plant based and healthier fats.

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    Last edited by RAKC Ind; 05-18-2018 at 10:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Might do you some good to do some research. Really dig into it. You'll find a heavy meat/fat based diet isn't what you have been led to believe. Where you got your information is actually quite false as you will learn if you take the time.

    You say I'm stuck in the old ways of how prograganda was pushed. Yet I'm actually not because I agree high carbs are bad. But now your buying into the new thing. One thing that is guaranteed to shorten your life because except for elite few cultures, meat and fat are some of the smallest parts of the diet. And those cultures who's people easily push 100yrs old, none of them have a high fat diet. It's highly plant based, proper carbs and little meat.

    Some good reading is dig into "blue zone".

    Keto diet is pushed because it has great effects but what better way to entirely screw a so many generations into pharma debt than push them to cardiovascular problems (among many others) because their diets are void of the most important nutrients.

    Keto diet is everywhere, it's the new fad but it melts fat quickly. But at what costs??? Do some reading.

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    IMHO there are 2 samples of diet that can promote longevity. I've experimented with both often and since genetics has a lot to do with metabolism. Sample 1. Would be a diet like you suggested typical Asian diet or rice beans and vegetables. Little meat, ideally seafood.

    Sample B. What most people call paleo these days. But the focus needs to be on lots of veggies and moderate fruit. Fats should come from mostly vegetable and some free roaming animals and seafood.

    The modern keto diet is heavy on animal fat, which probably isn't free range so the fats are not optimal. You can get lean on bacon, hamburger,cheese and dairy cream. I'll agree with you that this is asking for health problems.

    For me Sample 1. It's harder to maintain a healthy weight and my inflammation markers are higher with low LDL, higher triglycerides.
    Sample 2 my LDL is very high for my total cholesterol, low triglycerides and inflammation is almost nile.

    Modern keto eating tons of fatty meat, cream and cheese...way worse than sample 1.

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    Ok I see where your going now. Your looking at proper keto, not "modern" keto which is a big difference.

    Problem with organic/free range meat....ITS UNGODLY EXPENSIVE. Which truly shouldn't be the case because the effort needed for each, natural is cheaper. But quantity over quality is the American way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Ok I see where your going now. Your looking at proper keto, not "modern" keto which is a big difference.

    Problem with organic/free range meat....ITS UNGODLY EXPENSIVE. Which truly shouldn't be the case because the effort needed for each, natural is cheaper. But quantity over quality is the American way.

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    If you shop at the grocery store its extremely expensive. Since this is a mountain bike fourm most people aren't stuck in a major city where grocery stores are the only option.

    Going to farmers markets and looking online you can find great quality food. Organic is a giminc mostly. It cost a farmer a lot to be certified organic so most dont do it. But at the market you can talk to them and find out they dont use bad fertilizers and pesticides because they feed the same food to their families.

    Same with grass fed beef, chicken and eggs. If you get it directly from the farmers, it's cheaper than regular stuff at the grocery store.

    If time doesn't allow you or you are stuck too far away. Stick with chicken breast and free range eggs. Use avocado and coconut oils and eat raw nuts and seeds. They can be bought off Amazon cheaper than the stores.

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    Actually farmers market is great but seasonal. That's where a big majority of our produce during warm months comes from and ya it's cheap.

    Meat wise it's not so easy, have to have the coin to buy an entire animal. At that point you save A TON of money overall but the cost for the animal and processing is a large chunk all at once.

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    I see that some of you(like me) are using urine strips to determine your level of ketosis. I can't wrap my head around the $$ for frequent blood testing. And here's another rabbit hole you can go down using DUI breathalyzers for measuring ketones https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/te...athalyzer/9450
    I have NOT done the breathalyzer YET, but im considering it.
    Last edited by Smokee300; 05-21-2018 at 12:15 PM.

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    Why are we seeing a dead chipmunk?

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    I see that some of you(like me) are using urine strips to determine your level of ketosis. I can't wrap my head around the $$ for frequent blood testing. And here's another rabbit hole you can go down using DUI breathalyzers for measuring ketones https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/ve...-ketones/22833 I have NOT done the breathalyzer YET, but im considering it.

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Why are we seeing a dead chipmunk?

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    Sorry about that, I was multi tasking.. should be fixed

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    Lmao no worries, wasn't sure if he was dead or supposed to symbolize a drunk one

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  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Actually farmers market is great but seasonal. That's where a big majority of our produce during warm months comes from and ya it's cheap.

    Meat wise it's not so easy, have to have the coin to buy an entire animal. At that point you save A TON of money overall but the cost for the animal and processing is a large chunk all at once.

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    We have a few farmers that process their own. I dont have the room for a whole cow lol. And local butchers are an option.

    During hunting season I'll buy some tags, and hit up hunters via CL. Theirs always someone over their limit and would grab a deer and process it for a little bit of money.

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    Ya local butchers (meat markets) aren't cheap either. Pretty close to store bought free range/organic last I checked. I go there when we want nice cuts of meat for special occasions because you can taste a difference.

    I would be hitting up hunters if more than just me would eat the meat. I love wild caught animal meat. My oldest would eat it but that's the end of it.

    At least our farmers market starts this week!

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    Marginally related and in no way scientific but I've just completed a series of trials comparing fasted verses unfasted 20m FTP test. The test is on a trainer with most variables kept as close to the same as possible with the only difference being Fasted for 16 hours (which would likely mean ketos given my diet) verses about 10g of carbs from an energy chew after fasting for 16 hours.

    I consistently produce 3-4.5% more watts with the carbs and the difference comes primarily in the last 5 to 8 minutes. Of course, your wattage may vary.

  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlazedHam View Post
    Marginally related and in no way scientific but I've just completed a series of trials comparing fasted verses unfasted 20m FTP test. The test is on a trainer with most variables kept as close to the same as possible with the only difference being Fasted for 16 hours (which would likely mean ketos given my diet) verses about 10g of carbs from an energy chew after fasting for 16 hours.

    I consistently produce 3-4.5% more watts with the carbs and the difference comes primarily in the last 5 to 8 minutes. Of course, your wattage may vary.
    I IF most days. During the work week I hit the gym on my lunch brake and eat around 3pm typically 8oz chicken breast and an avacodo. Then after work ride weather permitting. Dinner is high enough calories to recover. I also supplement with EAA since I've drastically reduced my protien intake. I'm coming from a bodybuilding/ power lifting lifestyle. Used to eat 5 meals a day high protien. I'm able to maintain the muscle mass I want to keep. At 43 i dont want to be huge anymore.

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Ya local butchers (meat markets) aren't cheap either. Pretty close to store bought free range/organic last I checked. I go there when we want nice cuts of meat for special occasions because you can taste a difference.

    I would be hitting up hunters if more than just me would eat the meat. I love wild caught animal meat. My oldest would eat it but that's the end of it.

    At least our farmers market starts this week!

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    Good veggies are more important. Chicken breast can get boring but its low in fat and the bird doesn't live as long as a cow (the longer an animal is fed improper the worse it is) beef shouldn't really be a staple anyway. It contains a sugar (which diabetics I know need insulin with beef) that may feed cancer.

    So even on keto you shouldn't eat it all the time.

  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Good veggies are more important. Chicken breast can get boring but its low in fat and the bird doesn't live as long as a cow (the longer an animal is fed improper the worse it is) beef shouldn't really be a staple anyway. It contains a sugar (which diabetics I know need insulin with beef) that may feed cancer.

    So even on keto you shouldn't eat it all the time.
    Unless you're allergic to chicken. Then you eat lots of beef and pork.

    Do any of you guys follow Dr. Eric Berg or Thomas Delauer?? Pretty good info from those two!

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  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    Unless you're allergic to chicken. Then you eat lots of beef and pork.

    Do any of you guys follow Dr. Eric Berg or Thomas Delauer?? Pretty good info from those two!

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    Those names sound familiar. I'll check them out.

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlazedHam View Post
    Marginally related and in no way scientific but I've just completed a series of trials comparing fasted verses unfasted 20m FTP test. The test is on a trainer with most variables kept as close to the same as possible with the only difference being Fasted for 16 hours (which would likely mean ketos given my diet) verses about 10g of carbs from an energy chew after fasting for 16 hours.

    I consistently produce 3-4.5% more watts with the carbs and the difference comes primarily in the last 5 to 8 minutes. Of course, your wattage may vary.

    Thanks for sharing this. I'm approaching the 6 mo mark on my keto diet. Thus I'm going to start making some adjustments to my diet to see how it effects my cycling performance. I've been running mid-30's for net carbs per day. Soon, my plan will be bring up my carb intake gently to see how high I can go and still remain in Ketosis. I'm betting I can double my number with sweet potatoes and still remain where I'd like to be.

    I'll keep posting back as I begin to experiment a bit.

    Later,
    CJB

  83. #283
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    Some more follow up on my Keto experiment...

    So I'm now almost 6 months into this. Here's my issue: I regularly have the "dead legs" feeling when I ride my bike. However, I *can* when needed put up some Strava PRs, but they are painful and I still sorta feel "flat" during the effort. But once I download my ride, I can see that I've performed fairly well. I do have a method for minimizing the dead leg feeling when a bigger more important ride comes up via my sweet potato loading. But for every day riding (commuting to work, fun rides with some friends, etc..) my legs feel dead.

    I know I've read some similar feedback from others out there. How have you all dealt with it? Did you find a solution? Did it go away? I was hoping that as a *fully* adapted it would dissipate, but instead its become more annoying.

    I like the eating style and I feel good on a daily schedule (outside of my riding). I've been having the best sleep of my adult life these 6 months and I'm also down to my lowest weight since college. I just don't feel as fresh on the bike.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks
    CJB

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    Some more follow up on my Keto experiment...

    So I'm now almost 6 months into this. Here's my issue: I regularly have the "dead legs" feeling when I ride my bike. However, I *can* when needed put up some Strava PRs, but they are painful and I still sorta feel "flat" during the effort. But once I download my ride, I can see that I've performed fairly well. I do have a method for minimizing the dead leg feeling when a bigger more important ride comes up via my sweet potato loading. But for every day riding (commuting to work, fun rides with some friends, etc..) my legs feel dead.

    I know I've read some similar feedback from others out there. How have you all dealt with it? Did you find a solution? Did it go away? I was hoping that as a *fully* adapted it would dissipate, but instead its become more annoying.

    I like the eating style and I feel good on a daily schedule (outside of my riding). I've been having the best sleep of my adult life these 6 months and I'm also down to my lowest weight since college. I just don't feel as fresh on the bike.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks
    CJB
    I have the same feeling. I can ride all day long as long as it's not intense. When the climbs start or prolonged up and down type trails my legs tire quickly. Although with a minute or so rest I can continue right on without problem.

    I don't think there is any way around it. The muscle fibers store carbohydrates. So they will use carbohydrates as a direct source of fuel (and this runs out quickly during high intensity exercise). So even though we are fully fat adapted, the ketones are still housed in the circulatory system, so it takes a little bit longer for them to be fed to the muscle fibers.

    Your carb loading pre ride is likely the best way possible.

    For me it's simply a compromise. Sucks not being "optimal" on the bike but I'll take that trade off for a better feeling day to day life.



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  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    For me it's simply a compromise. Sucks not being "optimal" on the bike but I'll take that trade off for a better feeling day to day life.


    I can't quite say that I'm at that point.

    For me, Keto was/is just a physiological experiment. I didn't feel bad on glycogen based fuel source, I was already down to a nice low body weight, and I'd worked out a pretty solid cycling nutrition system.

    I was out on a ride this morning thinking about this topic. Another way for me to put it is that, "I never really feel like I have fresh legs". And I mean NEVER. Even when I'm performing well and grabbing KOM's (2 this morning). However, my nutritional needs are perfectly fine. I'm completely bonk-proof and can ride up to 6hrs (so far) without any food intake. However, the only way I can begin to feel 'strong' legs-wise is if I intentionally prepare the day(s) prior.

    I think for the next phase of my experiment, I'm going to start to add in low-glycemic carbs and see how high I can go and still remain in Ketosis. I'm ordering a blood keto level tester so that I can dial in more accurately and promptly over the pee-stix. Beyond that I may even push in & out of Keto to see what effects that has on my performance and freshness. To some extent I'm using some of Zach Bitters info to help me formulate some strategies.
    https://zachbitter.com
    https://youtu.be/zpHfbsffe44 (specifically for my area of focus)

    Later,
    CJB

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    I can't quite say that I'm at that point.

    For me, Keto was/is just a physiological experiment. I didn't feel bad on glycogen based fuel source, I was already down to a nice low body weight, and I'd worked out a pretty solid cycling nutrition system.

    I was out on a ride this morning thinking about this topic. Another way for me to put it is that, "I never really feel like I have fresh legs". And I mean NEVER. Even when I'm performing well and grabbing KOM's (2 this morning). However, my nutritional needs are perfectly fine. I'm completely bonk-proof and can ride up to 6hrs (so far) without any food intake. However, the only way I can begin to feel 'strong' legs-wise is if I intentionally prepare the day(s) prior.

    I think for the next phase of my experiment, I'm going to start to add in low-glycemic carbs and see how high I can go and still remain in Ketosis. I'm ordering a blood keto level tester so that I can dial in more accurately and promptly over the pee-stix. Beyond that I may even push in & out of Keto to see what effects that has on my performance and freshness. To some extent I'm using some of Zach Bitters info to help me formulate some strategies.
    https://zachbitter.com
    https://youtu.be/zpHfbsffe44 (specifically for my area of focus)

    Later,
    CJB
    Can I ask what your current macros are??

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  87. #287
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    I've been tracking my macros for 52 days now. I've been VERY consistent at about 70/20/10. My daily net carbs hover in the mid-30 grams. My guesstimate is that with the right kind of carbs, I could probably double my carb intake and remain in ketosis.

    Later,
    CJB

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    I've been tracking my macros for 52 days now. I've been VERY consistent at about 70/20/10. My daily net carbs hover in the mid-30 grams. My guesstimate is that with the right kind of carbs, I could probably double my carb intake and remain in ketosis.

    Later,
    CJB
    Yep. With as active as it sounds like you are (setting KOM's) I'm betting you could double or even more and stay in ketosis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    Chime in time. I was Keto for 1.5 years until this week. It was friggin' great up until about 3 months ago. I was fit as heck, blood pressure normalized, etc. Then I got blood work done this last quarter and LDLs were really high. Then I started getting headaches everyday (only at night for some reason), and my heart beat was crazy strong (i could feel the pounding of my pulse in my head and body. I tried to eliminate foods like chocolate and coffee but the headaches were relentless. I finally quit Keto last week. Bummed about it because carb living is hard...I'm always hungry...but the headaches did go away.

    Not sure what to do but might give vegan a try.

    Keto is amazing but I learned it wasn't for me. Wish it was...I got pretty ripped and fit.
    I've had the heart pounding issue as well when I was eating paleo.
    Now I'm doing keto and I've had less of it but still some on occasion. I think this has to do with balancing the macros, increasing carbs I think helps but I have to experiment more. I suspect it is due to a lack of potassium from carb food deficiency which should be supplemented.
    Last edited by Geotrouvetout67; 06-06-2018 at 05:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    I have the same feeling. I can ride all day long as long as it's not intense. When the climbs start or prolonged up and down type trails my legs tire quickly. Although with a minute or so rest I can continue right on without problem.

    I don't think there is any way around it. The muscle fibers store carbohydrates. So they will use carbohydrates as a direct source of fuel (and this runs out quickly during high intensity exercise). So even though we are fully fat adapted, the ketones are still housed in the circulatory system, so it takes a little bit longer for them to be fed to the muscle fibers.

    Your carb loading pre ride is likely the best way possible.

    For me it's simply a compromise. Sucks not being "optimal" on the bike but I'll take that trade off for a better feeling day to day life.



    Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk
    Same here. Other guys who run on carbs beat me mid course.
    I've been doing almost zero carbs. Next approach will be to train slower and fasted but before a harder and longer ride I'll have carbs. I'm going to experience with that for a few weeks and see how it goes. On a race day it may even require sucking on dextrose.

  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geotrouvetout67 View Post
    I've had the heart pounding issue as well when I was eating paleo.
    Now I'm doing keto and I've had less of it but still some on occasion. I think this has to do with balancing the macros, increasing carbs I think helps but I have to experiment more.
    The palpatrations are normally electrolyte imbalance or to many stimulants.

  92. #292
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    So many trails... so little time...

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    Very interesting article thanks for sharing. I've started their approach train low race hard and train on keto, fuel with carbs before races. Not that I race but I apply that to short easy rides vs longer harder rides I may do.

    I did notice a drop in max performance without carbs, even on shorter rides but also I can ride longer on keto at lower intensity, even without food at all. I would get hungry, never bonk but rather slow down, like feeling sleepy, I can keep pedaling without fainting cramping but I can't do it very fast. A slow diesel going the distance vs a high octane going fast and short.

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    I did just set PR's on a local segment. It's only a 2 mile single track but it's nearly constantly pedaling. I will say though on the second lap through trying to push I went flat about half way through.

    So there is definitely a loss of explosive short term energy. But like said above I can ride longer as long as it's not at max effort.

    I've transitioned to OMAD here for the past week (still 100% keto) and am liking it thus far!

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    I've been doing keto for the last year and a half. I just did the Mohican 100k last weekend and had 20g of carbs during the whole race. Half were from the Nuun electrolyte tablets.

    I finished in just under 9 hours. 8 hours of actual ride time. Being my first race like this, my goal was just to finish. I'm at a low 2W/kg so I think the time fits a low carb or high carb diet.

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    I was out on a ride this morning thinking about this topic. Another way for me to put it is that, "I never really feel like I have fresh legs". And I mean NEVER. Even when I'm performing well and grabbing KOM's (2 this morning). However, my nutritional needs are perfectly fine. I'm completely bonk-proof and can ride up to 6hrs (so far) without any food intake. However, the only way I can begin to feel 'strong' legs-wise is if I intentionally prepare the day(s) prior.

    I think for the next phase of my experiment, I'm going to start to add in low-glycemic carbs and see how high I can go and still remain in Ketosis. I'm ordering a blood keto level tester so that I can dial in more accurately and promptly over the pee-stix. Beyond that I may even push in & out of Keto to see what effects that has on my performance and freshness. To some extent I'm using some of Zach Bitters info to help me formulate some strategies.
    https://zachbitter.com
    https://youtu.be/zpHfbsffe44 (specifically for my area of focus)

    Later,
    CJB


    So my experimentation has begun and I think I've already honed-in on some positive outcomes. Two times now on some of my mid-distance rides (mtn & road), I've taken a Hammergel towards the early part of my ride. Both times, I could tell, in the beginning, as I was picking up my pace and intensity that I was going to have to deal with the "dead leg" sensation again. But once I took the Hammergel, about 30 minutes later the "dead leg" sensation disappeared and I began to feel "fresher". I purposely waited to get another ride in until I came back here to post up. So now with 2 seemingly similar outcomes, I wanted to at least provide some feedback to the collective.

    I chose Hammergel because their product has the lowest sugar content (2 grams). The first experiment was on the MTB and I had a 4 hr ride. I was also taking an exogenous BHB drink (which I regularly do) during my ride. The next morning my ketone blood readings were 3.0, which is very high. Last night, I did a 2hr 40 min road ride. I consumed the Hammergel earlier and performed some strong efforts toward the latter half of my ride. One hour after my ride my ketone reading was 0.5, and then after going to bed fasted I woke up with a reading of 1.1. (no exogenous BHB drink on this ride) Thus I seemed to remain in ketosis through the whole period even though I consumed 22 grams of carbs during the ride. I'm very pleased with the result.

    I recently purchased a Super Starch sample packet and I'm going to try that out soon. I ran across it from Peter Attia's blog. It was recommended to him by non other than Jeff Volek https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-L.../dp/0983490716 Therefore, I have some high hopes for this stuff. But the Super Starch stuff is dang expensive.

    Cheers,
    CJB

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    So my experimentation has begun and I think I've already honed-in on some positive outcomes. Two times now on some of my mid-distance rides (mtn & road), I've taken a Hammergel towards the early part of my ride. Both times, I could tell, in the beginning, as I was picking up my pace and intensity that I was going to have to deal with the "dead leg" sensation again. But once I took the Hammergel, about 30 minutes later the "dead leg" sensation disappeared and I began to feel "fresher". I purposely waited to get another ride in until I came back here to post up. So now with 2 seemingly similar outcomes, I wanted to at least provide some feedback to the collective.

    I chose Hammergel because their product has the lowest sugar content (2 grams). The first experiment was on the MTB and I had a 4 hr ride. I was also taking an exogenous BHB drink (which I regularly do) during my ride. The next morning my ketone blood readings were 3.0, which is very high. Last night, I did a 2hr 40 min road ride. I consumed the Hammergel earlier and performed some strong efforts toward the latter half of my ride. One hour after my ride my ketone reading was 0.5, and then after going to bed fasted I woke up with a reading of 1.1. (no exogenous BHB drink on this ride) Thus I seemed to remain in ketosis through the whole period even though I consumed 22 grams of carbs during the ride. I'm very pleased with the result.

    I recently purchased a Super Starch sample packet and I'm going to try that out soon. I ran across it from Peter Attia's blog. It was recommended to him by non other than Jeff Volek https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-L.../dp/0983490716 Therefore, I have some high hopes for this stuff. But the Super Starch stuff is dang expensive.

    Cheers,
    CJB
    Right on! I didn't think you would have any issue eating 50 or even more carbs from "cleaner" sources with your ride days. Good to hear!!

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    Watched the magic pill on netflix...

    Ive always seen this thread. Very interested.

  99. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropper View Post
    Watched the magic pill on netflix...

    Ive always seen this thread. Very interested.
    I need to watch that!

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  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    I need to watch that!

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    Its really interesting the whole grain industry and how we grow corn to feed to cows to eat. The corn fields being grown over and over destroy the land think dust bowl.

    Where as grazing animals like cows and sheep that move around the land replenish the grass lands. So convert the corn and grain fields back to their natural state and put pastured animals on there and then eat them. A previous vegan on the program just really summed it all up well.

    This is hard to ignore.

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