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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    Do you always go to youtube when you want confirmational bias on a topic?
    This video sums up a bunch of other research. If I gave you 1 thing to look at because lets face it, people have short attention spans... This is it.

    The best thing to do is experiment and do your own research.

    You're not going to croak from cutting carbs and eating more "HEALTHY FATS" for a couple of months.

    And at that point your view on the subject might change when you feel the affects and changes that happens to your body.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    I can't be arsed watching that vid, can you give me a quick review please.
    Well, it is a youtube video. About as valid as the usual youtube "obama is an abducted alien bigfoot" clips.

    It is a rehash of the low carb high protein weight loss diet. Old stuff. Some of his statements are outdated. The USDA food pyramid has not been used in 20? years. He oversimplifies some very complex cellular biochemistry to the point of error.

    Of course, the low carb high protein diet he pushes will cause a weight loss. No one disputes that. It is not a lifestyle change everyone will want, especially when you start swapping weight loss for cancer and heart disease later in life. And it is not a ketogenic diet. Everyone on this thread is calling a low carb high protein diet ketogenic. It is not. The term is being misused in the media and internet. A true medical keto diet is low carb AND VERY LOW PROTEIN, with 80% or more of your calories from fats. Used to treat certain nervous system disorders, mostly childhood epilepsy. Very dangerous and needs tight medical supervision.
    So many trails... so little time...

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    Well, it is a youtube video. About as valid as the usual youtube "obama is an abducted alien bigfoot" clips.

    It is a rehash of the low carb high protein weight loss diet. Old stuff. Some of his statements are outdated. The USDA food pyramid has not been used in 20? years. He oversimplifies some very complex cellular biochemistry to the point of error.

    Of course, the low carb high protein diet he pushes will cause a weight loss. No one disputes that. It is not a lifestyle change everyone will want, especially when you start swapping weight loss for cancer and heart disease later in life. And it is not a ketogenic diet. Everyone on this thread is calling a low carb high protein diet ketogenic. It is not. The term is being misused in the media and internet. A true medical keto diet is low carb AND VERY LOW PROTEIN, with 80% or more of your calories from fats. Used to treat certain nervous system disorders, mostly childhood epilepsy. Very dangerous and needs tight medical supervision.
    Tell us how you really feel!!!

    80% fat is upsurd.
    I shoot for 50-60% fat, 10% carbs or around 50g a day and fill in with protein.

    It's usually a couple of eggs or a small portion of meat one time a day.

    Where you get those carbs are key though... no processed junk and low glycemic options...

  4. #104
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toot3344556 View Post
    ...80% fat is upsurd...
    ...
    That is why a true medical keto diet is used only under close medical supervision when other treatments fail. And only for a handful of neurological conditions.
    So many trails... so little time...

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    That is why a true medical keto diet is used only under close medical supervision when other treatments fail. And only for a handful of neurological conditions.
    Still not going to kill ya for a couple of months...

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toot3344556 View Post
    Still not going to kill ya for a couple of months...
    No. it won't. A low carb/high protein diet is sometimes recommended as a weight loss method, particularly for athletes in weight class sports trying to drop a weight class. Not recommended as a long term diet, especially for endurance athletes during competition season. So use it for a few months off season to achieve your target weight then go back to normal diet.

    There will always a few people that claim they do well on a low carb diet in competition. This makes you wonder how much better they would do if they ate right.

    Of course, this is ignoring the genetic component of nutrition. Already well established in the literature different ethnic groups have different optimum macronutrient ratios. Nutritional genomics is new and evolving science. Won't be too long before a dietitian will ask for a DNA sample before developing a personal diet plan.
    So many trails... so little time...

  9. #109
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    Nice, succinct write up BUT I really want to know what a "race walker" is....sounds like a blast.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    No. it won't. A low carb/high protein diet is sometimes recommended as a weight loss method, particularly for athletes in weight class sports trying to drop a weight class. Not recommended as a long term diet, especially for endurance athletes during competition season. So use it for a few months off season to achieve your target weight then go back to normal diet.

    There will always a few people that claim they do well on a low carb diet in competition. This makes you wonder how much better they would do if they ate right.

    Of course, this is ignoring the genetic component of nutrition. Already well established in the literature different ethnic groups have different optimum macronutrient ratios. Nutritional genomics is new and evolving science. Won't be too long before a dietitian will ask for a DNA sample before developing a personal diet plan.
    The kicker is that MTB'ing is a high intensity exercise(At least most of the time, especially in racing) and most effectively fueled by carbs. So cutting carbs will mess you up and make you slow.

    That being said, it's great for endurance events where your Heart doesn't get too high and you stay in the aerobic zone.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimphatty View Post
    sooooo?? How'd it go?? I'm thinking of experimenting this summer with a ketogenic diet
    Hey...lost track of this thread. Keto is going amazingly well for me! I'm about 5 months in and it's a full blown lifestyle at this point. I want nothing to do with sugar/carbs. I'm down to 170.5 which is just crazy man crazy! I started at 191. Abs look decent without having to clench. I can ride forever and not need to eat...that's hella cool! I don't have the sprint anymore though but I'm done with sprinting anyhow. I am rarely hungry and eat far less. I actually like salads now...seek them out! I rarely ever go out to eat anymore as I can whip up easy meals with basic ingredients at home. I feel energized all day...never crash.

    Downside: Wicked cramps. Learning how to control that. I get occasional steady pounding pulse rate...it's odd but I deal with it. I get dizzy sometimes...but it's fun...like sniffing glue. I was sleeping great but lately I'm waking up at crazy hours wide awake. No idea what that is all about. Probably just life stress...Trump effect. Drinking a ton of water! That means I pee a lot. Peeing a lot is annoying. The does not prevent getting the cold...I got the cold and it sucks and it won't go away and it sucks. And finally, food choice is pretty limited especially since I am pescatarian. But since I am rarely hungry and can get full on light meals, no biggie.

    All in all, I am super stoked on this lifestyle. I'm pretty Keto specific with my diet and in full swing. I absolutely love it! I don't see going back to a carb diet where I was starving always and had to eat huge plates of food to get full.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    Hey...lost track of this thread. Keto is going amazingly well for me! I'm about 5 months in and it's a full blown lifestyle at this point. I want nothing to do with sugar/carbs. I'm down to 170.5 which is just crazy man crazy! I started at 191. Abs look decent without having to clench. I can ride forever and not need to eat...that's hella cool! I don't have the sprint anymore though but I'm done with sprinting anyhow. I am rarely hungry and eat far less. I actually like salads now...seek them out! I rarely ever go out to eat anymore as I can whip up easy meals with basic ingredients at home. I feel energized all day...never crash.

    Downside: Wicked cramps. Learning how to control that. I get occasional steady pounding pulse rate...it's odd but I deal with it. I get dizzy sometimes...but it's fun...like sniffing glue. I was sleeping great but lately I'm waking up at crazy hours wide awake. No idea what that is all about. Probably just life stress...Trump effect. Drinking a ton of water! That means I pee a lot. Peeing a lot is annoying. The does not prevent getting the cold...I got the cold and it sucks and it won't go away and it sucks. And finally, food choice is pretty limited especially since I am pescatarian. But since I am rarely hungry and can get full on light meals, no biggie.

    All in all, I am super stoked on this lifestyle. I'm pretty Keto specific with my diet and in full swing. I absolutely love it! I don't see going back to a carb diet where I was starving always and had to eat huge plates of food to get full.
    Start your morning with a cup of water with about a teaspoon of sea salt to help keep you salt content high.
    Also, eat a lot of avocado's, high in potassium.

  13. #113
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    @ squashyo What's your diet like to full up for a big ride? I'm just now getting Keto-adapted and starting to get out more on long backcountry loops. Wondering what others bring for fuel and if you Fast in the morning or eat first thing? Bulletproof Coffee seems to work well for me....Butter, Coconut oil, Heavy Cream first thing in the morning and don't eat for a 4plus hours afterwards.

  14. #114
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    first time i tried low carb it took me 6 weeks of bread cravings to get into it. it gets easier every time. and about 9-10 months in once your mitochondria count is up to speed you will get 95% of the power back along with the endurance. riding first thing in the mornining for 4-5 hours, without breakfast and no bonking is absolutely priceless.

    for the doubters, read The Case Against Sugar. or just listen to the author:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ffswUVoxA

    in short, the doctors and nutritionists of the 60s that gave us our current food pyramid were not trained scientists and had no idea how you eliminate bias out of research. they were just out to get easy answers and even easier lobby money.

    robb wolf is quite knowledgeable as well, and so aware of the things he doesnt yet know... my favourite nutrition guru:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrnGCExhsnM

  15. #115
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    There is a difference between low carb and Keto. Low carb means just that. You eat carbs, but less. Keto means you reduce your carb intake to the point where your body starts using fat for fuel instead. I'm 35 and i've been into fitness and weightlifting my whole life. I was also a certified personal trainer at one point with specialties in weight loss and sports conditioning. I've found that keto works, and a balanced diet works. With low carb you're nither here nor there. You get just enough carb to tease your body and end up with your insulin levels all over the place. I don't reccomed this type of diet (atkins or whatever the fad name is now). The weight loss people experience on these types of diets is mostly due to less water retention (from reduced carb intake) and the lower calorie intake in general. My feeling is that the drawbacks are not worth the reward, and you can acheive similar results by simply decreasing your portion size and eating balanced meals. On keto (after the initial adjustment period) you'll find more energy, better focus, and a better feeling overall. The reasoning is that this IS how our primitive ancestors ate, and how our bodies have evolved to process food. Modern farming hasn't been around long enough for our bodies to catch up to a modern diet. The only drawback to the keto diet as far as im concerned is its difficulty to maintain. You really have to plan things out and be in a relationship with someone on a similar diet or you'll drive yourself crazy. Ive been in ketosis myself for months at a time with zero issue. All bloodwork is well within normal.

  16. #116
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    very curious if you tried any endurance sports while in ketosis.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
    No one is doing good long term on that diet, you can't starve yourself into fitness. Your body runs off glucose, not fat. No reputable endurance athlete is on a low carb diet. Those diets just lead to thyroid damage, high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries, heart attacks and overall poor heath, just ask Dr. Atkins, oh wait....you can't he died of heart disease.
    Bullshit! You get much better insulin response. Your bad blood markers all improve, and your risk of diabetes and heart disease go way down. Keto is not Atkins. I eat keto, and I eat more veggies than most vegetarians. I eat eggs and avocado for breakfast with coffee with butter and coconut oil. I eat a homemade veggie stew for lunch, and I most often eat GIGANTIC salads for dinner. No sugar and no pasta. I lost 20 pounds and my health is excellent. No medications at all, when most 56 year old men are on multiple meds. Keto does not mean you have to eat nothing but meat and cheese, and you are very ignorant of the diet. What you are describing is a high protein diet. A good keto diet ups the fat, lowers the protein, and increases the veggies. Also, Dr Atkins fell on the ice and hit his head. He did not die from heart disease. Also, here is a couple that set a rowing record on a ketogenic diet. Fat Chance Row

  18. #118
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    I am 56 years old and always had a belly, even when riding a lot. In the summer (Tucson,AZ) I would ride way less and get fat. Last year I went keto. I rode less this summer than any summer in the 11 years I have been here, and yet I am starting the winter riding season 20 pounds lighter than last year, and at a weight I have not been at for 15 years. Yesterday I had nothing but coffee with butter, heavy cream and coconut oil in it and then did a 3 and a half hour ride. By the time I got home it had been 18 hours since my last actual meal. I started the ride with just a hint of a hunger pain, which at first had me worried. But it quickly went away, never to return. I had plenty of energy and never felt bonked, woozy, or shaky. A bit of tiredness in the legs due to a summer of almost no riding. (Probably rode a handful of times all summer.) This was my 3rd ride in the last week or so, trying to get back into a training groove. I had no lack of energy, and despite the lack of condition, I rode quite well, partly due to not having that 20 pounds. I feel like my condition will improve rapidly, and I don't have to spend most of the season trying to get the weight off. I am already at an awesome starting point for the season. Also, I am 56 years old and have absolutely no aches or pains, nor do I take any medications.

  19. #119
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    I take 1 pound of baby spinach, 1 pound of baby kale, 5 cups of raw quinoa, 5 pounds of grass fed beef, and two sticks of kerry gold. I season it with taco seasoning, spaghetti sauce, or parmasean cheese & garlic. I add water for the quinoa and bake it for about 2 hours in a big pan in the oven. I eat this sunday through friday morning. On friday night I eat a large pizza, none of that chain junk, for dinner. During the week I do 2-4 15-30 mile rides and on satuday I will do 50 miles of single track. I will also binge eat saturday too. If I skip my pizzas I will have low blood sugar problems the entire next week, my friday night and saturday food has to have glucose. Everything is affected from sleep, rides, and work. I went from a healthy 6"3 220 that could run a 21 minute 5k to 195 and much fitter over 6 months. My friends think I am too skinny, but I like the performance benefits I have noticed being lighter. I eat close to 3k calories during the week and like 5k with glucose friday and saturday.

  20. #120
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    LOL!

    KETO is for people participating in "my 600 pound life" or those who have the metabolism of a sloth.

    Eat carbs if you need energy!!!

  21. #121
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    I've been Ketogenic now for 4.5 years, lost 67 lbs (back to my 20's weight) labs drawn every 6 months, all perfectly down the middle...and...1/2 average cardiovascular risk based off triglycerides/HDL/LDL/HLDL. Performance wise is different, short of... carbs create short bursts of energy since it is a volatile fuel, metaboliclly, hence the need for glucose shots during XC and marathon races. Do predator mammals use these? Nope, they can endure through releases of stored glycogen from the liver, and free fatty acids that break down stored fats in the body (which your body doesn't do when it has access to "free" glucose, via oral intake) My riding performance is only diminished by the burst, I can ride at the same race pace almost endlessly, so "your" first xc lap outpaces mine, but on the 7th... I've passed you twice (in general) because of consistent energy. It's counter intuitive, I don't care if you try it or not, but it does work well for tons of people... including healthcare providers like myself.
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  22. #122
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    I've heard the ancestor argument for keto and I don't buy it. Just because your body has a built in fight or flight mechanism as a last resort to keep you from dying does not mean you should be in that state 24/7. It's like arguing that because prehistoric humans were always under stress, we should live like we are under stress to be healthy. What kind of twisted logic is that?

    And since we are telling anecdotal stories here, my LDL went to 370 in my low carb experiment (it was 120 before that). Yes, I lost weight, but I also lost weight eating a whole foods high carb diet (70% carbs), which didn't pound the crap out of my LDL (it is back down to 130 now) and my tryglicerides only went up from 57 to 67.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    I've heard the ancestor argument for keto and I don't buy it. Just because your body has a built in fight or flight mechanism as a last resort to keep you from dying does not mean you should be in that state 24/7. It's like arguing that because prehistoric humans were always under stress, we should live like we are under stress to be healthy. What kind of twisted logic is that?

    And since we are telling anecdotal stories here, my LDL went to 370 in my low carb experiment (it was 120 before that). Yes, I lost weight, but I also lost weight eating a whole foods high carb diet (70% carbs), which didn't pound the crap out of my LDL (it is back down to 130 now) and my tryglicerides only went up from 57 to 67.
    As a healthcare provider who works a lot with Native Americans and Latinos, the typical white man's diet has NOT done them any favors. IOW, they don't handle carbs well. Many Anglo's have the same problems with carb metabolism. I have found out through over 20 years of trial and error with my own body what works best for me. My daily goal is 50 grams of carbs or less. Some day I'm at 20 grams, some days I'm at 75. I do have a "cheat" meal 1-2 times per month but only after a 5 hr sufferfest with at least 250-300 TSS score. I usually eat salad 1-2 times per day, almond milk, nuts, peanut butter, eggs, various meats, hot dogs from Circle K (favorite). If we go out to eat, I'll have steak or chicken, veggies, and a salad. Only thing different than before is no potato and no dessert. I have adapted to this lifestyle quite well. It is very livable and enjoyable to me. I'm never at a loss for energy on my rides. I don't "bonk". I regularly do 4-5 hrs rides on no food, only water. My high end power is not compromised. I'm as fast (powerful) as ever. My weight currently is as low as it was at my racing peak 7 years ago. The weight plateau that I was stuck at 7 years ago has been beaten. I'm still loosing weight. My true 4-5% BF racing weight is about 148 lbs. I'm only 10 lbs over that now. My weight loss doesn't feel difficult like is used to. So what I'm basically saying is that the ketogenic type diet works well. Judging from the average person in the USA, this lifestyle would help most people. Now, if I was racing sorter XC events or Road like I used to, I would do a moderate carb load the day before a race and drink some Tailwind during the race itself to help with the energy demands of repeated super hard, red zone efforts. Otherwise, low carb/keto diet/lifestyle all the way. BTW, the cheat day is ok but the next day I'm glad I'm back to the keto diet as I feel better on it for sure.

  24. #124
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    I'm not sure why people assume that the alternative to their diet is always the "white man's diet" or the standard american diet (SAD) I was arguing with a vegan the other day and his response was similar. It seems that SAD is the strawman that gets attacked every time you critique somebody's diet.

    So let's get this out of the way. A SAD diet is not good for anybody. You have to be a genetic miracle to flourish on pizza, fried chicken, white bread, TV dinners, boxed chips etc etc. But the alternative to low carb is not SAD (as vegans will happily point out to you). When I was on SAD, I was 30lbs overweight.

    What I said is I flourished on a *whole foods* high carb diet not a sad diet, which by the way is moderate carb not high carb. Many traditional cuisines around the world are high in carbs (most Asians eat 60% carbs) but it hasn't caused obesity until processed SAD food got introduced. And since you served Native Americans, I'm guessing you are aware that the Pima Indians on the Mexican side of the border who stuck to their traditional diet, which was actually higher in carbs than the SAD diet forced on the American side Pimas, experienced much lower rates of obesity and diabetes. So carbs have very little to do with it.

  25. #125
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    “We’ve learned from this study of the Mexican Pimas that if the Pima Indians of Arizona could return to some of their traditions, including a high degree of physical activity and a diet with less fat and more starch, we might be able to reduce the rate, and surely the severity, of unhealthy weight in most of the population,” Eric Ravussin.

    Physical activity is very important. Most Asians get a lot of physical activity. Also the carbs they eat aren't cheetos.
    Sure if one uses moderate carbs and is very careful about what types of carbs, I agree with you. But Fat + Carbs = No Beuno. Insulin spikes in the presence of Fat is Bad.

    Wheat bread, whole cereals, brown rice, can all spike your insulin. Most carbs except super low GI carbs cause significant insulin spikes. Many people have abnormal insulin responses anyway and don't need the added stress to their pancreas from these carbs. They are better off with keto type diet. For someone like ourselves who most would consider extremely active or "elite" athletes, we can get away with more dietary mistakes.

  26. #126
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    I have been on a more or less Keto or low carb diet for three years. No more stomake or gas problems. I did my best 95km MTB race two years ago without sugar or carbs, except the last 10km where I took a mug of energy drink. That upset my stomake so I rode that last part slower and I will never do it again. Now I am eating carbs from good quality sources after training to fill up the muscles glygogene deposits. It works for me, me temperament beeing a father of two young boys is 300% better than before.
    In the weekends I enjoy a glass of red, if on a party I sometimes eat cake.
    I also fast for 24 hours once every week.
    The last 6 months I have been training at MAF pulse, ie 180-age=138 in my case. Never felt so good.
    Last edited by kave; 11-16-2017 at 12:10 AM.

  27. #127
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    I have seen so many people do the ketogenic diets all wrong. Its insane.

    Biggest issue is eating a bunch of nasty fats. Pork fat for one, only thing worse is processed cooking oils. Butter not too far behind.

    Next is not understanding that the biggest problem is processed foods. The SAD is specifically designed to give us health problems.

    You see the paleo diets, good idea but off a bit.

    Proper carbs arent a problem, natural carbs. Fruits and veggies are natural carbs. High in fiber in many cases.

    Proper carbs at proper intake levels do not cause insulin spikes unless you already have issues.

    I dropped a 100 lbs just by riding and ditching processed food. Still ate carbs, didnt count them. Just learn what was high fiber (bread and otherwise) that was as unprocessed as possible.

    Right now Im doing a more Ketone based diet. Restricted carbs. If I get lazy for even one meal (not home we grab a quick bite) I feel like ass.

    Diet is natural, unprocessed as possible, protiens, healthy fats, veggies, limited fruits, drink only coffee, tea and water.

    Went to doctors for shoulder 2 days ago. Down almost 15 lbs, blood pressure and everything is down. That was in less than 4 weeks. Very limited riding but very busy on my feet constantly. Nothing for me to go 12 hrs between eating anything now. But still have plenty of energy.

    Riding right now has suffered a bit. I can ride much longer, but dont have the punch I used to right now. But Im still tweaking my diet, sorting out what Im missing where.

    Limiting carbs, eating only natural healthy fats and real/unprocessed foods does wonders. As I said, if I "cheat" I feel like crap for hours after.

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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiva View Post

    Wheat bread, whole cereals, brown rice, can all spike your insulin. Most carbs except super low GI carbs cause significant insulin spikes. Many people have abnormal insulin responses anyway and don't need the added stress to their pancreas from these carbs. They are better off with keto type diet. For someone like ourselves who most would consider extremely active or "elite" athletes, we can get away with more dietary mistakes.
    I experimented with and know many whole foods, plant based vegans who eat 80% carbs which includes white potatoes and brown rice. I challenge you to find obesity in that community. And no, they are not all active. I lost 20lbs in six months and my activity level involved moving from my office chair at work to my couch at home. Plus, my energy and vitals was way better on that diet than it was on my low carb experiment, which jacked up my LDL to over 300 and climbing two flights of stairs was a chore.

    Now I am not advocating for veganism because that diet is simply a pain in the rear and takes the fun out of life. Just sayin focusing on carbs is a bit of a strawman.

    The real problem is being overweight. When you are overweight, pretty much any extra excess calorie is toxic. BTW, protein can also cause insulin spikes but somehow this flies under the radar.

    The reason why any extreme diet "works" (and that includes both veganism and low carb) is because they indirectly reduce calories by limiting your food choices. It also reduces food reward over time because you simply get sick of a diet with less variety. So you end up taking in less calories.

  29. #129
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    What American eat:

    https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFile..._0304_1314.pdf

    This is a summary of the results of the NHANES program -- the periodic sampling of the dietary choices of Americans. Note it is different from the SAD tossed around here. People are eating better than many people think. Not as healthy as they could, and not as unhealthy as the alt-nutrition industry claims.
    So many trails... so little time...

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwestmtb View Post
    I experimented with and know many whole foods, plant based vegans who eat 80% carbs which includes white potatoes and brown rice. I challenge you to find obesity in that community. And no, they are not all active. I lost 20lbs in six months and my activity level involved moving from my office chair at work to my couch at home. Plus, my energy and vitals was way better on that diet than it was on my low carb experiment, which jacked up my LDL to over 300 and climbing two flights of stairs was a chore.

    Now I am not advocating for veganism because that diet is simply a pain in the rear and takes the fun out of life. Just sayin focusing on carbs is a bit of a strawman.

    The real problem is being overweight. When you are overweight, pretty much any extra excess calorie is toxic. BTW, protein can also cause insulin spikes but somehow this flies under the radar.

    The reason why any extreme diet "works" (and that includes both veganism and low carb) is because they indirectly reduce calories by limiting your food choices. It also reduces food reward over time because you simply get sick of a diet with less variety. So you end up taking in less calories.
    It works well for those of us that have a habit of eating carb heavy.

    And ketosis is actually very real, its an "extreme" diet and was never meant for people that are healthy weight (too many are obsessed with BMI cause of insurance and media. Can make you unhealthy) but ppl like me that are well over weight and loosing fat isnt so easy. This diet, though a bit rough works very well.

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    Yes, keto is a real state and yes it is a state where the body and brain are using fat rather than carbs for fuel. The problem starts when people think that because you are a "fat burner" that means you will burn body fat. Well, I guess that would be true if you weren't eating more fat. But since low carbers stay in ketosis by eating tons of fat....well you do the math.

    Bottomline is, if you eat fewer calories than you burn, you will lose fat. But if you eat more calories than you burn, you will gain fat. Doesn't matter whether those calories come from carbs, protein or fat. A fat burner who eats more calories from fat than he burns will not lose body fat. But it is often very easy to eat fewer calories on a low carb diet because eating tons of fat becomes monotonous. So it is a good way to trick yourself into eating less overall calories. There is really no magic here beyond the calorie equation.

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    Nope there's not but there is more to it than that. Types of fat play a part. But carbs are the most efficient fuel source. Ketosis you burn more calories (how much more is debated, but every study shows burning fat for fuel takes more calories to accomplish the same effort).

    Also controlling carbs stabilizes the body.

    But what I am doing isnt "Keto", its more of low carb paleo if we had to label it. Ditching processed foods, very limited carbs, even carefully way what I drink outside of water/coffee/tea. I dont pig out of fat, but more fat than I was before (just not processed oils and things like that)

    Its not just about calories to be healthy, loose weight, etc, but also the types of calories. I eat my calories most days just fine, but nice to make my breakfast then not eat for 10 hrs but be able to bust ass working that entire time.

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  33. #133
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    Latest research shows that the macronutrient ratios are less important than previously believed. Your body, primarily the intestinal biome, adapts to your diet, activity level, and life stressors fairly rapidly -- weeks to a few months. Whether you get 10% or 70% of your calories from carbs or fat is not as important as maintaining your activity level and managing the stressors in your life. Your body adjusts itself to your diet and lifestyle regardless if you eat low carb or high carb.

    There is also a genetic component. Different people will react differently to the same diet.

    The takeaway point is find a diet and lifestyle that works for you and keep at it. Ignore what works for other people if you found success for you.
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  34. #134
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    I've been doing this for a few months. I don't care about any of these arguments about ancestry, evolution, natural vs artificial, or "logic" about what we're "meant" to eat. All that matters to me is results; ideology is irrelevant.

    I've mainly followed Stephen Phinney's guidelines for formulating a ketogenic diet. All of his recommendations are evidence-based and backed by clinical studies. He has a very good book relating this type of diet to athletic performance:
    http://a.co/hBAC8Uz

    I train and race (Cat 1 XC, Cat 2 CX), and my experience has been exactly as he describes. There is an adaptation period of 4-6 weeks during which you'll have diminished ability to perform work. After that, you're back to normal, except you have inexhaustible energy reserves. I did a MTB marathon at the 4 week mark and had a very good result. Nearly 3 hours at race pace, taking nothing except water and my energy was steady the entire time. Finished 2nd in the 40+ age group, 6th overall. I agree with the other posters that say fuel and snacks during rides are completely unnecessary now. You can essentially make yourself bonk-proof.

    Normally I would finish hard rides with ravenous hunger and shakiness due to low blood sugar, despite sucking down energy drinks during the ride. Now I sometimes have to remind myself to eat, since I'm trying not be in a calorie deficit.

    As for higher intensity, I also had a couple cyclocross races and did as well as I usually do in Cat 1/2. I will say that higher-intensity work feels different. I feel a bit like I don't have that get-up-and-go sprint power, but the power meter doesn't lie and my ability to perform intervals is not diminished.

    My goal was not to lose weight, as I was already pretty lean to begin with (started at ~155lbs, 6'0"). However, I immediately dropped 5-6lbs and was noticably leaner with much better definition. I've since gained some of that weight back in lean mass since resuming weight training in the off-season. This is possible because the lifestyle is not about calorie restriction at all. I eat sufficient protein, and all the cheese, bacon, butter, oil, cream, mayo, etc that my heart (or stomach) desires, and I feel better than ever.

  35. #135
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    Idea: This is a terrible forum to debate keto vs. carbs. Whichever side you are on, you get nothing by arguing here.

    Instead, lwhy not have this thread be for *discussion* of people who have any interest in diets that are not high-carb, and the remaining threads can have the regular high-carb topics?

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael1 View Post
    Idea: This is a terrible forum to debate keto vs. carbs. Whichever side you are on, you get nothing by arguing here.

    Instead, lwhy not have this thread be for *discussion* of people who have any interest in diets that are not high-carb, and the remaining threads can have the regular high-carb topics?
    That seemed to be the original intention.

    The thing with "high carb" is most ppl with high carb diets also end up over eating calories. Some react ok to it, others do not and like me, get fat, have trouble loosing weight.

    I can say its working for me. Im not going as strict on the diet, like I enjoyed thanksgiving! Lol. But almost 20lbs down in about 6 weeks, endurance has gone way up even without real "training". Just riding when I can.

    I dont argue ketone or not, its a matter of diet and genetics. Ketone style diet works wonders for some but may not work for everyone. Especially when pushing your body fat percentage too low can be worse than being a bit overweight.

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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    I've been doing this for a few months. I don't care about any of these arguments about ancestry, evolution, natural vs artificial, or "logic" about what we're "meant" to eat. All that matters to me is results; ideology is irrelevant.

    I've mainly followed Stephen Phinney's guidelines for formulating a ketogenic diet. All of his recommendations are evidence-based and backed by clinical studies. He has a very good book relating this type of diet to athletic performance:
    http://a.co/hBAC8Uz

    I train and race (Cat 1 XC, Cat 2 CX), and my experience has been exactly as he describes. There is an adaptation period of 4-6 weeks during which you'll have diminished ability to perform work. After that, you're back to normal, except you have inexhaustible energy reserves. I did a MTB marathon at the 4 week mark and had a very good result. Nearly 3 hours at race pace, taking nothing except water and my energy was steady the entire time. Finished 2nd in the 40+ age group, 6th overall. I agree with the other posters that say fuel and snacks during rides are completely unnecessary now. You can essentially make yourself bonk-proof.

    Normally I would finish hard rides with ravenous hunger and shakiness due to low blood sugar, despite sucking down energy drinks during the ride. Now I sometimes have to remind myself to eat, since I'm trying not be in a calorie deficit.

    As for higher intensity, I also had a couple cyclocross races and did as well as I usually do in Cat 1/2. I will say that higher-intensity work feels different. I feel a bit like I don't have that get-up-and-go sprint power, but the power meter doesn't lie and my ability to perform intervals is not diminished.

    My goal was not to lose weight, as I was already pretty lean to begin with (started at ~155lbs, 6'0"). However, I immediately dropped 5-6lbs and was noticably leaner with much better definition. I've since gained some of that weight back in lean mass since resuming weight training in the off-season. This is possible because the lifestyle is not about calorie restriction at all. I eat sufficient protein, and all the cheese, bacon, butter, oil, cream, mayo, etc that my heart (or stomach) desires, and I feel better than ever.

    spsoon- thanks for posting this up. I'm going to begin a Keto Diet on Monday and I've been researching the topic for almost 6 months now. I wanted to wait until the holidays were passed, along with a few of my marathon events (last of which was today). I've got 2 areas of concern. (but I'm not necessarily asking you to answer, but you can if appropriate.

    1)- my biggest concern is that the research I've done seems to make keto diet out to be best for the 'long slow burn' output kind of athlete: ultra distance runners, RAAM riders, or even non-endurance athletes such as weight lifters, etc.. However, as a marathon (and sometimes XC, and road crit) racer, I've been concerned about my top-end efforts. I just feel like once I'm fat adapted, I may be better off subbing in some low glycemic carbs around race time. Whatever the case, I'm concerned about losing quick-fast top-end efforts with this choice.

    2)- this is semi-related to the concern above, but its a bit more near-term of an issue. I've signed up for the Ouachita Challenge at the end of March. This will give me about 2.5 mos into the Keto lifestyle....with probably a more limited training schedule initially. I'm curious as to what my expectations should be for a race like that given my parameters? I'm a 45 yr old, Cat 1 XC racer who has a fondness for marathons (4-8 hr events). I'm generally a top 10 finisher or greater. My road racing highlights are minimal.

    https://theketogenicathlete.com/?s=zach+bitter
    This is the closets I've gotten to some pertinent info to myself as an endurance athlete. Zach Bitter (who hold multiple records for 12hr & 100 mi runs) has been nutritionally advised by renowned Keto guru Jeff Volek (Art & science of Low Carb Performance [book]) and they came to some of my similar conclusions. Whatever the case, its a quality podcast listen

    Thanks
    CJB

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    1)- my biggest concern is that the research I've done seems to make keto diet out to be best for the 'long slow burn' output kind of athlete: ultra distance runners, RAAM riders, or even non-endurance athletes such as weight lifters, etc.. However, as a marathon (and sometimes XC, and road crit) racer, I've been concerned about my top-end efforts. I just feel like once I'm fat adapted, I may be better off subbing in some low glycemic carbs around race time. Whatever the case, I'm concerned about losing quick-fast top-end efforts with this choice.
    This is all anecdotal experience or conjecture on my part, so take with a grain of salt!

    I agree that the potential benefits likely increase with the length of the event, and I share your concern with shorter events. However, it's been suggested (although I forget exactly where I read this) that being fat-adapted may include a couple of relevant effects:
    1. During high-intensity efforts you will consume glycogen at a lower rate. This could offset the lack of carb intake during competition.
    2. Reduced carb intake causes your muscles to store glycogen more efficiently and in greater quantity.

    So yes, you might not have the carb intake during the event, but you might be burning it slower and starting with a bigger tank.

    Over the course of the holidays, I've concluded that a cheat meal here and there doesn't significantly impact my fat adaptation. Of course, everyone may be different, and it may depend on your energy expenditure. I'm currently doing 10+ hours per week of base training, so that may reduce the impact of a few extra carb calories here and there. So it may be possible to supplement carbs during competition and gain the benefits of both. But they say that insulin inhibits fat burning, so it's also possible that having a sport drink could spike your insulin and throw a wrench in the works. This is pure conjecture, but something I plan to experiment with this season. If you have a power meter, you can do some race-simulating workouts and see how your performance is affected.

    Slow-metabolizing carbs are an interesting idea, and could be a good compromise. That's something else I intend to try as well.

    2)- this is semi-related to the concern above, but its a bit more near-term of an issue. I've signed up for the Ouachita Challenge at the end of March. This will give me about 2.5 mos into the Keto lifestyle....with probably a more limited training schedule initially. I'm curious as to what my expectations should be for a race like that given my parameters? I'm a 45 yr old, Cat 1 XC racer who has a fondness for marathons (4-8 hr events). I'm generally a top 10 finisher or greater. My road racing highlights are minimal.
    I've read 4-6 weeks of adaptation to get back to your original power-producing capabilities. I did a 3-hour race at the 4-week mark and felt great, so my personal experience agrees. If you have a period of limited training time, it might be ideal if that coincided with your adaptation period because I would say the quality of your workouts is likely to be impacted for a few weeks. I wouldn't have any concerns about making the transition in 2.5 months though. You should be able to get fully adapted and still do some experiments for your race fuelling.

    One undeniable benefit is it will make you leaner. There is a reason keto is so popular with the body-building crowd. So even supposing there are no performance benefits, you will have the luxury of making weight loss trivially easy. Personally, I'm enjoying the lifestyle and I'm convinced of the general health benefits, so I feel like I will likely stick with it unless there are major negative performance impacts. So far, I haven't found that to be the case, but the upcoming season will tell

  39. #139
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    spsoon,

    Once again, that is all very good (annecdotal) info! I'm very much encouraged from it. It seems like we have similar interests and perspectives. Another funny tid-bit is that I never clicked on your link in your first post. I assumed it was a video and I'd come back to watch it later. This morning I clicked on it and saw that it was to THE EXACT book I myself referenced in my post. LOL

    I'm treating this as a big experiment, so if for some reason it doesn't work out, I really have very little reason to not go back to my previous dietary (racing) habits. I've lost 23 lbs this past year and feel like I've got my riding/racing/endurance nutrition pretty dialed-in over 20 yrs of racing. But I'm very intrigued by the Keto concept. And at 5'10" 170, I'm not over weight, but I'm not "climber skinny" either. So I would welcome another 5-10 lb loss.

    I easily have 2 weeks or more that I can give towards easy riding while I get fat adapted. From there I'll start to work in increasing volume and intensity while experimenting with Keto nutrition. The guy (Zach Bitter) that was featured in that podcast I linked to does coaching consulting. He has an option where you can pay for a 1 hr consultation. If I can't get some of these things dialed in myself, then I may give that a shot. I think he may have some quality insights considering his journey and subsequent achievements (along with the fact that he's been nutritionally guided by Jeff Voleck himself).

    The Ouachita Challenge is easily a B-race for me. But I am meeting some old riding buddies there and we've not ridden/raced together in 10 yrs. So some bragging rights are on the line.

    Please report back here with what you find thru your up-coming experimentations.

    Thanks again,
    CJB

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    This is all anecdotal experience or conjecture on my part, so take with a grain of salt!

    I agree that the potential benefits likely increase with the length of the event, and I share your concern with shorter events. However, it's been suggested (although I forget exactly where I read this) that being fat-adapted may include a couple of relevant effects:
    1. During high-intensity efforts you will consume glycogen at a lower rate. This could offset the lack of carb intake during competition.
    2. Reduced carb intake causes your muscles to store glycogen more efficiently and in greater quantity.

    So yes, you might not have the carb intake during the event, but you might be burning it slower and starting with a bigger tank.

    Slow-metabolizing carbs are an interesting idea, and could be a good compromise. That's something else I intend to try as well.
    I'm not claiming to be the authority on metabolism, but I'm writing a book on it right now, and I'm afraid that some of the above just doesn't seem right. Let's get back to basics and then look at the above writing.

    Glycogen is used in skeletal muscle during high-intensity workouts. There is only a finite amount of it, on average the equivalent of around 800-1200 kcal (calories) in the body for use. That's still several hours of energy during exercise, but it's used FASTER not slower. It's used in the first place because the energy requirements at the time are outstripping the fat-burning capability of the body. It's like a reserve gas tank. When you are out of gas (fat burning) in your main gas tank, you don't use the reserve tank slower, you use it faster.

    Also, you can't really have a bigger reserve of glycogen. You can carb load to top off the glycogen reserves but you can't grow them out of their 800-1200 calorie limits. It's not like getting fatter from eating more. It's a finite system that's off/on depending on the intensity and extent of the exercise. There is no efficient storing or inefficient storing of glycogen. It's either topped off or it's not. I'm not sure what kind of author told you about glycogen. Glycogen reserves are such a small amount of energy relative to fat stores that efficient and inefficient terms don't even compare with lipid metabolism.

    CBaron is correct that for high-intensity stuff they should intake several hundred calories of simple carbs to top off their glycogen storage. If they feel hypoglycemic later, they should supplement with 100-200 mcg of chromium and/or mix the carbs with a protein-based snack to help balance out the energy spike.
    "If my songs become my freedom, and my freedom turns to gold, then I'll ask the final question, if the answer could be sold"

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I'm not claiming to be the authority on metabolism, but I'm writing a book on it right now, and I'm afraid that some of the above just doesn't seem right. Let's get back to basics and then look at the above writing.

    Glycogen is used in skeletal muscle during high-intensity workouts. There is only a finite amount of it, on average the equivalent of around 800-1200 kcal (calories) in the body for use. That's still several hours of energy during exercise, but it's used FASTER not slower. It's used in the first place because the energy requirements at the time are outstripping the fat-burning capability of the body. It's like a reserve gas tank. When you are out of gas (fat burning) in your main gas tank, you don't use the reserve tank slower, you use it faster.

    Also, you can't really have a bigger reserve of glycogen. You can carb load to top off the glycogen reserves but you can't grow them out of their 800-1200 calorie limits. It's not like getting fatter from eating more. It's a finite system that's off/on depending on the intensity and extent of the exercise. There is no efficient storing or inefficient storing of glycogen. It's either topped off or it's not. I'm not sure what kind of author told you about glycogen. Glycogen reserves are such a small amount of energy relative to fat stores that efficient and inefficient terms don't even compare with lipid metabolism.

    CBaron is correct that for high-intensity stuff they should intake several hundred calories of simple carbs to top off their glycogen storage. If they feel hypoglycemic later, they should supplement with 100-200 mcg of chromium and/or mix the carbs with a protein-based snack to help balance out the energy spike.

    richj8990- Thanks for chiming in. I'm certainly no expert either...I'm not writing a book and I"VE COME TO A MTB WEBSITE FOR NUTRITIONAL INFO!

    Are you speaking above from the point of view of someone who has switch their fuel source away from glycogen and then over to fat as a primary source? The way I read your info is that that is not the case. However, I do seem to gather that once one becomes fat adapted it changes the physiology of what goes on.

    The part where I'm very unsure about is if fat adapted people still carry around full glycogen stores? I'd guessed that they no longer did this, but like I said, I'm not entirely sure. And because of this, that's part of why I was thinking I might need to add to the (no longer full) glycogen stores before an event that might contain some intensity efforts.

    If you are really interested in this topic, and are curious as to some of the foundational scientific info says, then I'd strongly urge you to read the book that spsoon linked to (and I also blindly referenced). These guys are some of the OG thought leaders in this area as it relates to athletic performance. The book is FULL OF the scientific study references that was used to build their body of work. And with that being said, I clearly recall them stating that some of the studies did show Point #1 that spsoon listed. I cannot clearly recall the details about the other point (and I'm not completely finished with the book yet either).


    spsoon- did you experience much fo the Keto flu symptoms? I'm now at 6 days at less than 20 gms carbs per day (prolly closer to 15). I've really not had any of the keto flu symptoms. Mild lethargicness, very brief gentle head ache in the am, and I can tell I'm dropping water. However, I'm working hard to keep putting it back in. I'll be doing my first mellow ride tomorrow. We'll see how that goes. This has all been pretty simple so far...

    Cheers,
    CJB

  42. #142
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    Figured it was worth linking to the book again, in case anyone wanted to check it out.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0983490716..._9rifAbCPTCMV5

    Its been a pretty straightforward read. I'd even say its interesting....if you care about athletic nutrition and performance.

    Later,
    CJB

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    richj8990- Thanks for chiming in. I'm certainly no expert either...I'm not writing a book and I"VE COME TO A MTB WEBSITE FOR NUTRITIONAL INFO!

    Are you speaking above from the point of view of someone who has switch their fuel source away from glycogen and then over to fat as a primary source? The way I read your info is that that is not the case. However, I do seem to gather that once one becomes fat adapted it changes the physiology of what goes on.

    The part where I'm very unsure about is if fat adapted people still carry around full glycogen stores? I'd guessed that they no longer did this, but like I said, I'm not entirely sure. And because of this, that's part of why I was thinking I might need to add to the (no longer full) glycogen stores before an event that might contain some intensity efforts.

    If you are really interested in this topic, and are curious as to some of the foundational scientific info says, then I'd strongly urge you to read the book that spsoon linked to (and I also blindly referenced). These guys are some of the OG thought leaders in this area as it relates to athletic performance. The book is FULL OF the scientific study references that was used to build their body of work. And with that being said, I clearly recall them stating that some of the studies did show Point #1 that spsoon listed. I cannot clearly recall the details about the other point (and I'm not completely finished with the book yet either).


    spsoon- did you experience much fo the Keto flu symptoms? I'm now at 6 days at less than 20 gms carbs per day (prolly closer to 15). I've really not had any of the keto flu symptoms. Mild lethargicness, very brief gentle head ache in the am, and I can tell I'm dropping water. However, I'm working hard to keep putting it back in. I'll be doing my first mellow ride tomorrow. We'll see how that goes. This has all been pretty simple so far...

    Cheers,
    CJB
    Everyone carries glycogen stores, even people on an extremely low-carb diet, unless they have a rare genetic condition. BTW I learned a new thing too, I thought glycogenesis was AcetylCoA-mediated but it starts way before that enzyme, it starts at the substrate Glucose-1-phosphate, 7 substrates before AcetylCoA even touches any carbohydrate. That's called an early shunt from Glycolysis into the other pathway, in this case Glycogenesis. See below, and feel free to ask questions (I know about 2/3 of the molecular players in the article, would need to research the other 1/3).

    https://themedicalbiochemistrypage.o....php#synthesis
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  44. #144
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    I see what you did there! [wink]

    I never questioned whether we carried glycogen stores. The unknown for me is, how much gets stored when in a fat-adapted state?

    Do you or those 2/3's of molecular players have any fancy charts on that?

    -CJB

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    spsoon- did you experience much fo the Keto flu symptoms? I'm now at 6 days at less than 20 gms carbs per day (prolly closer to 15). I've really not had any of the keto flu symptoms. Mild lethargicness, very brief gentle head ache in the am, and I can tell I'm dropping water. However, I'm working hard to keep putting it back in. I'll be doing my first mellow ride tomorrow. We'll see how that goes. This has all been pretty simple so far...
    Same here, very mild headaches for a few days. Just make sure you get a little more sodium than usual. I'm really loving the steady energy levels. I used to get hangry when my blood sugar would drop. Now I can miss a meal, or train on an empty stomach and it's no big deal. I think it lives up to the "bonk-proof" promise.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBaron View Post
    ...
    I never questioned whether we carried glycogen stores. The unknown for me is, how much gets stored when in a fat-adapted state?...
    You still store glycogen. Glycogen is required to metabolize fat, so you are always burning some.
    Laying on the couch watching TV you are burning fat almost exclusively. Not very much, but nearly all is fat. As intensity increases the percentage of fat vs glucose changes, until at max intensity you are burning mostly glucose. There is no magic point where you switch from glucose to fat exclusively. A low carb diet and/or increasing fitness changes the utilization curve so you burn more fat and less glucose at higher intensities. But there is a point where metabolizing fat just cannot meet the energy demands and starts burning more glucose.

    Even on a long moderate intensity ride you will likely have short spurts of high intensity -- hill climbs, sprints, etc. For those short periods the body may switch on the glucose furnace, then revert back to burning mostly fat.

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