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  1. #26
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    I started this drink mix about a weeK-ago I was have trouble also with cramping like I have never had before I am almost 52 yrs old and I have never had this kind of trouble but I do now! I went to the DR. and had my blood work and stuf done but he told me everything was good and I was like no #$#$%$# way I know my body and my legs are blowing up on every climb. I was not eating enough and I was not hydrating enough.

    So thank-you for posting this Hundun. I do also beleve that we all can be little to alot diferent when it comes to this kind of thing I am a heavy sweater so I am using 1 3/4 Tsp of the light salt 2 1/4 cups of suger some lemon concentrate 2 cuos to 2 1/2 cups of juice I mixed it like yours the first day but I do long miles and on my short milage days I'm running also working and working on the house. I was getting cramps also at night and they are gone on day three of being on this I did a 100 mile road ride and I had to back myself down (and I thought my legs where going to start hurting but they didn't) I have a 24 hour race coming up this weekend. it's working for me.

  2. #27
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    I'm a big sweater and have various cramping issues over the years. I now use these Saltstick Caps with pretty good results. Also either Hammer Nutrition Heed (mixed 1/2 strength) or Poweraid Zero for 2+ hour rides.

    The Saltstick Caps have 215mg sodium, 63mg potassium, 22mg calcium, 11mg magnesium per capsule. What's the jury think?

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  3. #28
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    Thanks Skidad,I will give them a try.. I just did the Wausau WI 24 solo and I had to drop-out becuse my ass was to sore to go on, I had fell on lap 2 on lap 4 I had to pit becuse of my little chain ring bolts where coming out so I lost 20min there I stoped to eat and that made that next lap 2 hours but by the 12th hour I had 11 laps and I was feeling that I could go 19 to 21 but now I'm all butt hurt! Oh! well there will be other races.

  4. #29
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    Well I haven't been here on mtbr in a while but last Aug I did the MN24 the solo 24 and I used this mix again but I started to feel sick at about hour 18 and the hole race was go time I was back in 8th place at the start but by night fall I had got up to 4th and stayed there till morring then I was up in 2nd place but feeling like crap they got some coffee in me and it helped keep me awake and then the guys that where in 2nd and 3rd came out after having a brake one of them passed me and I finshed 3rd.

    I won"t be using this mix again for racing to compete this hard I going to have to look for something that won't have me feeling sick,I have had good luck with Crborocket, I think I might have started feeling sick becuse it cooled down at night and then I got too much salt.

  5. #30
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    Ton of sugar, have you tried making it with agave nectar or honey rather than processed sugar? Or even cutting it back a bit.

    That much sugar in a serving seems like it would spike your blood sugar and lead to a bad crash after you finish the bottle off.

  6. #31
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    is it supposed to taste a tad salty or did I maybe add too much? (btw i used salt sense as its all the store had)

    I thought I put in exactly what the recipe called for - in fact I'm almost positive I did. I thought the sugar and fruit juice would offset it.

  7. #32
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    I have been using the recipe you posted from Cycle tips for a good many years with the Kolaid flavor, never really thought about using different natural fruit juices for flavor, thanks!
    This stuff definately works, I remember one time years ago we had a fellow rider so dehydrated his lips were turning blue, I gave him my backpack and told him to drink all he wanted, about 15 minutes later he was able to ride out of the woods.
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  8. #33
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    A lot of us automatically think that electrolytes are only important for cramping. What is often overlooked is that sodium is used to activate the "glucose transport mechanism". Once fuel is done breaking down in the stomach, it empties into the small intestine. This is where absorption takes place and the magic happens.

    The most important takeaway about absorption is that a mixture of glucose, fructose, sodium and water together maximizes the absorption of each. The small intestine has active pumps for glucose and separate pumps for fructose. These pumps run on sodium. This is a big reason you need to consume electrolytes with your fuel.The pumps move glucose, fructose, and sodium from your small intestine into the bloodstream. This creates an imbalance, which is corrected by sucking water molecules into the bloodstream. I want to emphasize that this active pumping process moves more water into your bloodstream than you would absorb if you drank water alone or if your fuel lacked sodium or glucose and fructose. This particular mixture has been shown scientifically to be the most efficient way to get fuel, electrolytes, and water into the body. Other pathways to hydrate like osmosis function at a slower rate.
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  9. #34
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    I have to caution against to much potassium, you can easily get into a state of hyperkalemia, potassium poisoning: it can be fatal. I'd recommend sticking to the ratio that salt stick uses posted above. Use regular salt to bring up the sodium while cutting back on the potassium. Hyperkalemia can cause heart dysrhythmias, a weak or slow pulse and paralysis.

    Seriously, look it up.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    Ton of sugar, have you tried making it with agave nectar or honey rather than processed sugar? Or even cutting it back a bit.

    That much sugar in a serving seems like it would spike your blood sugar and lead to a bad crash after you finish the bottle off.
    Agreed. Though cane sugar is better for you than HFCS, something like agave or honey would have a lower glycemic index. Heck, I might even try stevia in it, as I am diabetic, but I'll try something based on the OP. Thanks, Hundun!

  11. #36
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    Hundun,
    Thanks for sharing your recipe. I usualy don't get cramps but like some Gatorade from time to time, especially in hot weather after a long ride. Although, I think Gatorade has got pretty sweet from when it first came out.

    I made an 1 qt batch for testing rather than making a 2 qt batch up and not liking it. Since I like grape Gatorade best I thought I would try 1/2 cup natural concord grape juice for flavor. I squeezed lemon juice from an 1/2 lemon, and used 1/4 cup honey instead of white sugar.

    Since I was making a 1 qt batch I tried using 1/4 tsp salt and 1/4 tsp lite salt as you suggested for lower potassium, it was rather salty (for my likening and my wifes). I never thought Gatorade tasted salty but this was. I may have misunderstood your directions, maybe a misprint? You first said to use .75 tsp of lite salt for 2 liters. I thought it seemed unusual when you said to use a 1/2 tsp each regular and lite saltf or lower potassium. This in my thinking was more (and it was) but went with it?

    Anyway, the next batch I used only 1/4 tsp lite salt for 1 quart and it was good that way. So for an 1 qt non salty tasting (for me) sports drink I use:

    1/2 cup juice of your choice
    Juice squeezed from 1/2 lemon
    1/4 cup honey
    1/4 tsp lite salt (or 1/8 tsp regular salt 1/8 tsp lite salt for lower potassium)
    Fill with fresh water (I use filtered water)
    Shake well and chill (I used an Gatorade bottle)

    Thanks again for your recipe, it gave me the chance to experiment with and make a natural ingredient, not to sweet sports drink!

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whambat View Post
    I have to caution against to much potassium, you can easily get into a state of hyperkalemia, potassium poisoning: it can be fatal. I'd recommend sticking to the ratio that salt stick uses posted above. Use regular salt to bring up the sodium while cutting back on the potassium. Hyperkalemia can cause heart dysrhythmias, a weak or slow pulse and paralysis.

    Seriously, look it up.
    This needs repeating for people who don't read closely.

    TOO MUCH POTASSIUM CAN KILL YOU

    Hyperkalemia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And the symptoms of potassium overdose, are very similar to the symptoms of heat exhaustion or cramping... so you might think, hey I just need some more electrolytes.

    Reality is, you don't need very much potassium in your diet, and you probably can get by without any at all in your water bottle. Use regular salt as noted above.

  13. #38
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    Interesting discussion. Lo Salt has the sodium-to-potassium (Na:K) ratio reversed compared to SaltStick, although not the same numerically.

    Comparing Lo Salt to SaltStick, it looks like you'd need to add regular table salt to Lo Salt to bring up the sodium content into the proper ratio (assuming SaltStick is "proper").

    Lo Salt (1/4 tsp):
    Na - 170 mg
    K - 450 mg

    SaltStick Cap (1 for 30-60 minutes):
    Na - 215 mg
    K - 63 mg

    The Na:K ratio in SaltStick is 3.4:1. So adding ~0.5-0.6 tsp table salt (1360 mg Na) to Lo Salt will bring that homebrew mix up to the 3.4:1 ratio. Of course you'd need to consume that exact mix over a much longer period of time to get the same rate as a SaltStick cap (about 7x).

    Or am I looking at that too simplistically?
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    Ton of sugar, have you tried making it with agave nectar or honey rather than processed sugar? Or even cutting it back a bit.

    That much sugar in a serving seems like it would spike your blood sugar and lead to a bad crash after you finish the bottle off.
    Yep. That's my recipe.

    3 tbsp wild honey
    1/2 tsp of salt
    750 ml water

    Honey has 2 diff kinds of sugars that feed your muscles at different times. There's the quick acting glucose and the slower acting fructose. This prevents the sugar crash from just ordinary sugar (glucose).

    Honey: The Facts - Nutrition - Runner's World

    For my potassium requirements, I bring small packages of raisins (100g). Raisins, gram for gram, have more potassium than bananas. They're also high in carbohydrates almost as much as honey.

  15. #40
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    Just a couple of issues with this mix. I'm happy it's working for some of you, but maybe it could work better. For what it's worth, I'm a health coach with a strong focus on nutrition.

    The recipe that the OP shared has a carbohydrate concentration of around 6%. In order for your body to fully absorb the water you're drinking, it needs an osmolality (basically the density of solutes in the solution,) lower than that of your blood- in other words, a carbohydrate concentration less than 4.5%. The sodium and sugars help move the water into the small intestine. This process uses SGLT1 transporters that actively transport sodium and glucose across the small intestine. These channels use energy to move 2 sodium ions and one glucose molecule into the body. As this happens, 210 molecules of water also move across.

    I prefer honey for a number of reasons, but one of the main ones is what Gundam168 brought up- the combination of glucose and fructose is pretty ideal. I also use sea salt because of the sodium/potassium ratio and the presence of trace minerals. The citric acid in the grapefruit juice (or the lime juice I prefer,) has also been shown to help speed absorption of water.

    Here's a recipe that I use:

    1 1/2 Tablespoon of organic, local honey
    1 1/2-3 Tablespoons fresh-squeezed lime juice (to taste)
    1/4 Teaspoon of good quality, unprocessed sea salt (not table salt or kosher salt!)
    24 oz. filtered water

    Dissolve the honey in a small amount of hot water, add remaining ingredients, stir well.
    I like to scale up and make a pitcher of it so that I can just fill water bottles for rides.
    This recipe gives a roughly 3-4% carbohydrate solution, which is about the maximum for absorption, The sea salt has the full complement of electrolytes, and the honey has glucose, which speeds water absorption in the intestines.

    If you're really bored sometime, or if you're just a big nerd, here's a little light reading.

    Gisolfi, C. V., Summers, R. W., Schedl, H. P., & Bleiler, T. L. (1992). Intestinal water absorption from select carbohydrate solutions in humans. J Appl Physiol, 73(5), 2142-2150.

    Gisolfi, C. V., Summers, R. W., Lambert, G. P., & Xia, T. (1998). Effect of beverage osmolality on intestinal fluid absorption during exercise. J Appl Physiol, 85(5), 1941-1948.

    Gisolfi, C. V., Lambert, G. P., & Summers, R. W. (2001). Intestinal fluid absorption during exercise: role of sport drink osmolality and [Na+]. Med Sci Sports Exerc, 33(6), 907-915.

    Grootjans, J., Thuijls, G., Verdam, F., Derikx, J. P., Lenaerts, K., & Buurman, W. A. (2010). Non-invasive assessment of barrier integrity and function of the human gut. World J Gastrointest Surg, 2(3), 61-69.

    Hall, D. M., Buettner, G. R., Oberley, L. W., Xu, L., Matthes, R. D., & Gisolfi, C. V. (2001). Mechanisms of circulatory and intestinal barrier dysfunction during whole body hyperthermia. Am J Physiol Heart Circ Physiol, 280(2), H509-21.

    Henkin, S. D., Sehl, P. L., & Meyer, F. (2010). Sweat rate and electrolyte concentration in swimmers, runners, and nonathletes. Int J Sports Physiol Perform, 5(3), 359-366.

    Hoorn, E. J., & Zietse, R. (2008). Hyponatremia revisited: translating physiology to practice. Nephron Physiol, 108(3), p46-59.

    Jeukendrup, A. E., & Moseley, L. (2010). Multiple transportable carbohydrates enhance gastric emptying and fluid delivery. Scand J Med Sci Sports, 20(1), 112-121.

    Lambert, G. P., Chang, R. T., Xia, T., Summers, R. W., & Gisolfi, C. V. (1997). Absorption from different intestinal segments during exercise. J Appl Physiol, 83(1), 204-212.

    Lien, Y. H., & Shapiro, J. I. (2007). Hyponatremia: clinical diagnosis and management. Am J Med, 120(8), 653-658.

    Noakes, T. D., Goodwin, N., Rayner, B. L., Branken, T., & Taylor, R. K. (1985). Water intoxication: a possible complication during endurance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc, 17(3), 370-375.

    Noakes, T. D. (2007). Drinking guidelines for exercise: what evidence is there that athletes should drink “as much as tolerable”, “to replace the weight lost during exercise” or “ad libitum”? J Sports Sci, 25(7), 781-796.

    Wright, E. M., & Loo, D. D. (2000). Coupling between Na+, sugar, and water transport across the intestine. Ann N Y Acad Sci, 915, 54-66.

    Zeuthen, T., Belhage, B., & Zeuthen, E. (2006). Water transport by Na+-coupled cotransporters of glucose (SGLT1) and of iodide (NIS). The dependence of substrate size studied at high resolution. J Physiol, 570(Pt 3), 485-499.

    Zeuthen, T. (2010). Water-transporting proteins. J Membr Biol, 234(2), 57-73.


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  16. #41
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    Ok, this can potentially be a stupid question.
    I went to grocery store to look at other sea salts since the one I have at home didn't list potassium as one of the ingredients. I could find none that would list it and my limited chemistry knowledge tells me that a regular salt is a Sodium Chloride (NaCl) so if there is no potassium (K) listed how does NaCl solution give you potassium in your sports drink?

  17. #42
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    It's pretty low percentage, and most packaging doesn't list it separate from "trace minerals." The vast majority of the mineral content of your sweat that must be replaced is sodium, and potassium is best found in vegetables.

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  18. #43
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    When we originally started making Tailwind Nutrition in our kitchen, we would purchase potassium chloride from our natural foods store (and we still continue to add it separately in our Tailwind formulation). Sea salt alone does not contain enough potassium to replace what you sweat out, and table salt does not contain any significant amount of potassium due to the chemical processing which is performed on table salt.
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  19. #44
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    Homemade Sports Drink - Anti-Cramp Elixir

    Quote Originally Posted by jennyv View Post
    When we originally started making Tailwind Nutrition in our kitchen, we would purchase potassium chloride from our natural foods store (and we still continue to add it separately in our Tailwind formulation). Sea salt alone does not contain enough potassium to replace what you sweat out, and table salt does not contain any significant amount of potassium due to the chemical processing which is performed on table salt.
    Thanks, I think that's a good point. If your diet doesn't include a lot of potassium-rich foods, sea salt alone won't do.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gundam168 View Post
    Yep. That's my recipe.

    3 tbsp wild honey
    1/2 tsp of salt
    750 ml water

    Honey has 2 diff kinds of sugars that feed your muscles at different times. There's the quick acting glucose and the slower acting fructose. This prevents the sugar crash from just ordinary sugar (glucose).

    Honey: The Facts - Nutrition - Runner's World

    For my potassium requirements, I bring small packages of raisins (100g). Raisins, gram for gram, have more potassium than bananas. They're also high in carbohydrates almost as much as honey.
    Thanks for the tip on the honey,I'm going to give that a try. I misunderstood also and had my sugar wrong.also the honey stingers have always worked good for me but I went off them becuse I was getting a discount from Hammer.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sslos View Post
    Thanks, I think that's a good point. If your diet doesn't include a lot of potassium-rich foods, sea salt alone won't do.
    sslos & Jenny, good points, if i'm getting potassium thru what I'm eating and then on race day(a 24 hr solo)if I use some Tailwind at 3 scoops, thier potassium264mg compaired to carborockets 170mg and the TWs sugar is 75g and CRs is 26g this is all based on the three scoops and the sodium in the TW per 3 scoops is 909mg and the CR is 444mg. So the two of you know alot about this from looking at the numbers but someone like me that just wants to put it into bottles and race and one might work better that the other but some of the numbers are a bit differnt and I would have to think that I'm going to run into problems at about hour 10 to 15.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by idinomac View Post
    sslos & Jenny, good points, if i'm getting potassium thru what I'm eating and then on race day(a 24 hr solo)if I use some Tailwind at 3 scoops, thier potassium264mg compaired to carborockets 170mg and the TWs sugar is 75g and CRs is 26g this is all based on the three scoops and the sodium in the TW per 3 scoops is 909mg and the CR is 444mg. So the two of you know alot about this from looking at the numbers but someone like me that just wants to put it into bottles and race and one might work better that the other but some of the numbers are a bit differnt and I would have to think that I'm going to run into problems at about hour 10 to 15.
    Not exactly sure of what you're asking, so please correct me if I'm responding incorrectly.
    I've found that for me, personally testing nutrition in training is key.
    Are the recommended quantities for the same amount of water; in other words, 3 scoops per x amount of water, is x the same for both products?

    In my experience, my system handles solid foods for calories better than getting everything in the form of liquids, which is supported by the data I referenced. But again, without seeing how YOU do with it, all those studies are meaningless!

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  23. #48
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    Los,thank-you much, I do know about trying it first in training first but I'm not going to go much more than 12 hrs in my training. what I'm trying to say is that between the stuff that's in the two (carborocket & tailwind) mixing 3 scoops to say 24oz I would be getting more soduim & sugar with the TW 2x as much and what I'm saying is sometime after 12 hours of racing I'm talking about running in the top 5, after the 12 hours one of the mixs' is going to be too much or and the other not enough. I have found that I can do better with some food also.
    Dean.

  24. #49
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    I love the recipe but I would use sea salt
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  25. #50
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    Idinomac, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I agree that you definitely need to test what you are going to use in training. Generally speaking, for Tailwind, we recommend starting off with 250 calories/24oz of water/hour and then adjusting up or down from there. This is dependent upon how efficiently your body processes calories (avg. human processes between 200-300 calories/hour). Also, although Tailwind is designed as a sole fuel source, you can take in other calories and dial back the calorie concentration accordingly. For example, let's say that you also plan on consuming 100 calories in food per hour, then dial back the concentration to 150 calories/24oz of water/hour.

    As for electrolytes, both CarboRocket and Tailwind contain way more electrolytes than other drinks out there which is why you typically don't need to supplement with salt tabs or salt pills. The average human sweats sodium (0.9 gram/liter), potassium (0.2 g/l), calcium (0.015 g/l), magnesium (0.0013 g/l) and other trace minerals (and this is the same profile we used for electrolytes in Tailwind).

    So, with both CarboRocket and Tailwind you can dial in the amount you need based on the number of scoops you use. Hope this helps.
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