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  1. #1
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    Am I doing this right?

    I have been riding about 5 weeks now and my main goal is to lose weight....a lot of it. 40-50lbs by the end of the season. Over the past 5 weeks I have set up my ride program as well as my diet.

    Me

    Male, 43, 6'1" 230ish (started at 240)

    Bike

    2013 Specialized RockHopper expert.

    Ride

    I ride 30-45 minutes a day, everyday. I have a great trail that isabout 10km long with a 5 km road drive back. I drive this same circuit everytime and time myself. I hit it like a race every single time and go flat out to try to beat yesterday's time. My best is 14.8km in 39 minutes. My trail has a huge hill. 99% of people walk up but my last 2 times out I have conquered it.

    Diet

    I am doing a "Not raw vegan" diet. I have been counting calories and keep it under 2000/day but eating all fruit and veggies. I eat at least half of my veggies raw and steam the rest. I call this "Not raw vegan" because I also eat 1 boneless skinless chicken breast at dinner and 2 eggs at breakfast.

    Does this seem like a healthy weight loss program?
    Please advise me on anything I should do different.
    I am totally doing this on my own. This site is where I amnlearning to ride and my diet is just a guess based on internet information.

    Thanks in advance...I do realize I have lost weight but just getting my butt off the couch would do this regardless.

  2. #2
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    Here's my $.02 for what it's worth.

    Don't forget to rest. Rest is when you make gains. It won't hurt you to take a day off every few days or at least an easy day.

    Calories, don't cut them too much. You want to figure out your maintenance and shoot for around 500 calorie below that. Cut too much and you could negatively effect your energy levels making it hard to workout/ride. Too low calorie diet is also hard to maintain.

    Vegan...be careful that you are getting enough protein. I did vegan for awhile and even did full raw for about 6 months. Lost about 40 pounds. Most was muscle. It's very hard to get protein eating vegan and even more so eating raw. I think vegan is a pretty good way to eat but you will likely lose muscle to a point where your body levels out and stabilizes. For me, that was unacceptable. I'm pretty heavily muscled and I don't like the thought of losing much of that.

    Since you are eating a little meat and eggs anyways...I'd strongly suggest looking into Paleo/primal eating. It's pretty much what you are doing now but with more protein. The basis of Paleo is meat, vegetables, some fruit, little nuts and seeds, no grains, no sugar, no dairy. So basically you eat meat, veggies, fruits/nuts/seeds and you cut out the refined processed junk.

    I just look at it as a whole food diet. I pretty much just cut out pasta, breads, refined sugar, starchy foods like white potatoes and rice, milk, ect. as much as possible, I eat lots of eggs and meat though I have cut back on the meat, tons of vegetables and probably too much fruit but I don't care. I love the stuff and I'll keep eating it. I do also eat yogurt and some cheese but I've cut way back on the cheese.

    Last year I lost 80 pounds doing this and riding. I'm still trying to lose 40-50 more and I kinda let things go diet-wise. Not too bad but enough my weight loss stalled for awhile. I'm getting back on track though so I'm hoping the weight will start coming off again soon.
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  3. #3
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    Thanks for your input. I will look at all of that. Congrats on your weight loss . That's huge!!

  4. #4
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    Your energy level and general health will dictate whether your diet is working for you but it sounds pretty healthy to me.

    Prior to last season I had a similar goal.
    Started the season at 6'6", 270, 52 years old. Ex football, rugby, body builder, military, etc.
    I vowed to ride every day, diet, and transform myself to cycling shape.
    I ate a less healthy (mostly protein) diet than you've listed but I did keep my calories less than 1500 per day and gave up most alcohol. That was the toughest part...
    Picked up a trainer to work out with over the winter and started my season this year at 185 lbs which was too light for my frame so bulked up to 205 with some upper body work and a small change in my diet.
    It's easy to put the weight back on so I give myself only a 5 lb gain limit then go back to the 1500 calorie diet to shed it off.
    I don't know what other advice I can give except keep working on it, you'll find what works specifically for you.

  5. #5
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    Being my loss of almost 100lbs in the last 2 yrs I can tell u biggest thing, processed sugary fatty greasy crap has to go.

    Fish a big plus for protien. Also don't eliminate red meat all together, if uve been eating it all along then stop ur body will get pissed. Keep it leaner cuts and not often. carbs limit and keep to whole grain stuff minimal ingredients.

    But as said only ull know what works best but natural is always best regardless

  6. #6
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    Do you think I would be better off riding longer periods (2hrs+) with a rest day in between rides?

  7. #7
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    I'd mix it up. My riding last year was 95% road so I was doing 30-70 miles at a time but only a few times per week or as often as I was able. Long rides are great for a good calorie burn. Short intense rides are great for conditioning and cardio and of course you'll burn calories too.
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  8. #8
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    I'm not a huge believer in temporary diets. They get the weight off, but they don't keep it off. Permanent lifestyle changes seem to be a better solution, IMO.

    So from my perspective, whether or not you're 'doing it right' depends on whether or not you want to make this new lifestyle permanent. For me, what you describe would be much too extreme and I would constantly look forward to being off of those dietary restrictions. But that's me, you have your own preferences so you have to decide for yourself.

  9. #9
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    That's why I like the Paleo style eating. For me at least, it's sustainable and not nearly as restrictive as people think. Even the Paleo experts say that eating 80% Paleo will get you 90% of the results that someone 100% Paleo gets.

    Yeah, I miss eating certain things and to be honest, if I get a super craving for something like pizza, I'll just eat some pizza. A couple slices isn't the end of the world. The key is to not give in to those cravings often and to make sure that you go back to eating properly immediately after. Unless a person is raised eating super clean, for most of us it's difficult to maintain a 100% clean way of living. A "cheat" now and then can often times be all it takes to keep us on track. But on the other hand, for some people a cheat is all it takes to derail them and send them back down the wrong path. I guess you just have to decide what kind of person you are and eat accordingly.
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  10. #10
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    This is very much a lifestyle change. I don't intend to count every calorie after I reach my goal but if my pants get tight I will get back on board. Once I hit my goal weight it will be time to add muscle and my diet will change again. Even just sticking to real food will make for a better me.
    I looked more at paleo. Looks pretty straight forward and I am having a hard time keeping my protien level up. Might tweek my shopping list a bit.
    Thanks for everyones input. Did my 40min again today. I am truly enjoying the riding.

  11. #11
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    Yeah, sounds like if you increase the protein some but more or less maintain the way you are eating, you'll be on the right path. Even add in a protein shake once a day would be a quick and easy way to get a good dose of protein. Personally, I shoot for 75-100g a day. I do this with a combo of meat/fish, eggs, and protein powder. Then whatever I get from the plant based food I eat is just bonus. Like stated, diets fail. New eating habits have to be formed in order to be successful long term. Diets are ok for trimming down for a beach vacation or because you are a competitive bodybuilder or need to squeeze into a tux/dress for a special occasion, but for those of us that are doing it for health reasons...diets are not the answer. Sounds like you're on your way to success, just keep it up and when that weight starts melting off and the riding gets easier/more fun, you'll be even more motivated.
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  12. #12
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    Great advice so far! One thing I would add is working in some weight lifting. Building more muscle will burn more fat…also make you ride stronger.

    About a year ago I started lifting weights again and especially leg work. Single leg squats etc…. took my riding to a whole new level.

  13. #13
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    I was considering some upper body lifing. Not sure how recovery days would affect my riding?

  14. #14
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    Might effect it for a while/few weeks
    I would change up the riding some to avoid plateauing. You're still burning calories, but not improving condition as much after a while. Some harder, some longer
    Body weight exercises are best/most effective until it's no longer enough. And it's a good idea because you'll burn calories while doing it, while recovering from it, and muscle speeds your metab, even at rest.
    If you're loosing 2-3 lbs a week you're doing great. Don't make anymore improvements until your progress slows. Leave yourself plenty of wiggle room for improvements, and it also plays into that lifestyle thing wisely mentioned above.
    Another thing that is effective for speeding metab and keeping you adequately fueled for exercise is to split your days rations into more meals per day.
    Some weeks you lose more then other even when everything is the same, just the way it is. Don't live by the scale, better by how your clothes fit and your energy level. Muscle weights more than fat and the scale knows not.
    Good for you and good luck
    Round and round we go

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    I was considering some upper body lifing. Not sure how recovery days would affect my riding?
    BTW sounds like your plan is going great, nice job!

    Recovery days are actually where you get stronger.

    Think of the rides (or workouts) as you telling your muscles they need to get stronger (which is why most weight lifting has you use a muscle till it fails, to make that 'you must adapt' message to your muscle loud and clear). The recovery time (hours or days) is your muscles actually getting stronger (repairing the damage you did and then adding strength so they won't damage as easily next time). How long of recovery depends on how much muscle damage you did, and the muscles will tell you if they aren't ready for more (by being OMG sore).

    So its a cycle of beat up muscles, let them heal, beat them up, let them heal...rinse repeat..

    One thing that numerous vegan athletes have said is they recover much faster eating vegan than what they were eating before. My completely biased opinion is that is because meat and dairy are shown to cause inflammation in the body, but training hard causes inflammation too (natural healing of all those muscle tears), so my guess is inflammation overload.

    If you can ride that hard day after day then your doing just fine, keep it up.

  16. #16
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    awesome analogy ^
    Round and round we go

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Might effect it for a while/few weeks
    I would change up the riding some to avoid plateauing. You're still burning calories, but not improving condition as much after a while. Some harder, some longer
    Body weight exercises are best/most effective until it's no longer enough. And it's a good idea because you'll burn calories while doing it, while recovering from it, and muscle speeds your metab, even at rest.
    If you're loosing 2-3 lbs a week you're doing great. Don't make anymore improvements until your progress slows. Leave yourself plenty of wiggle room for improvements, and it also plays into that lifestyle thing wisely mentioned above.
    Another thing that is effective for speeding metab and keeping you adequately fueled for exercise is to split your days rations into more meals per day.
    Some weeks you lose more then other even when everything is the same, just the way it is. Don't live by the scale, better by how your clothes fit and your energy level. Muscle weights more than fat and the scale knows not.
    Good for you and good luck
    "Body weight exercises are best/most effective until it's no longer enough. And it's a good idea because you'll burn calories while doing it, while recovering from it, and muscle speeds your metab, even at rest."

    Exactly....I dropped from 235 to 185 by eating right and lifting weights.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    I hit it like a race every single time and go flat out to try to beat yesterday's time.
    If you go balls out every time a few times a week, you will hurt yourself at some point. Then off the bike and weight will start creeping up again.

    Go hard on the uphill, that's where you burn most of the calories in the ride. Keep it safe on the downhill. Instead of taking time of your entire ride, use an app like strava that breaks your ride to segments. You can see your time progression on the uphill sections alone, which is what you really want. You don't loose a lot of weight by going a few seconds faster downhill. Timing your entire ride forces you to bomb downhill to keep your time, which is not correlated with your training goals.

  19. #19
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    You're riding too much. Take some days off and go for longer rides in different places with different people. I'm vegan and never count calories. It's one of the benefits of a plant diet if done right, I believe Oreos are vegan, as well as, most beer. Skip the processed foods and soft drinks. Raw vegan is hardcore in the long term. Regular vegan plus a cheat day once in a while is much more successful long term. Protein on no raw shouldn't be an issue.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut
    I ride 30-45 minutes a day, everyday. I have a great trail that isabout 10km long with a 5 km road drive back. I drive this same circuit everytime and time myself. I hit it like a race every single time and go flat out to try to beat yesterday's time. My best is 14.8km in 39 minutes. My trail has a huge hill. 99% of people walk up but my last 2 times out I have conquered it.
    it's more about getting your heartrate into the correct zone than just going out and "hitting it". you will realize more weight loss if you increase the time slightly as well to 50-70 minutes of aerobic exercise in the correct zone.

    something else to remember is that the body becomes adept very quickly to repetitive motions/exercise. this is why most people adopting an exercise program will see an initial drop followed by an almost immediate plateau with little to no improvement. interval training will help to drop excess weight, improve cardiac conditioning, and increase endurance. so incorporating HR zone and interval training will exponentially increase both your efforts and results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut
    I am doing a "Not raw vegan" diet. I have been counting calories and keep it under 2000/day but eating all fruit and veggies. I eat at least half of my veggies raw and steam the rest. I call this "Not raw vegan" because I also eat 1 boneless skinless chicken breast at dinner and 2 eggs at breakfast.
    well, since you asked for input i'd point out that's not any kind of vegan diet because it includes eggs and meat. a vegan diet is one that is free of all animal flesh (meat/fish/poultry), animal secretions (dairy), embryos (eggs), and by products (isolated whey protein, etc.).

    that being said, it sounds like you've made a drastic change in diet which for most americans is a good thing. however, if your diet is primarily vegan there is no need to count calories. a varied vegan diet will result in all of the carbs, protein, amino acids, etc. that your body needs to run and rebuild/repair itself. and there are plenty of good supplements like spiru-tein and other things if you're concerned about it while educating yourself on a proper diet. there are also several good books i could recommend as well if you're interested.

    i'm not saying you are wrong to eat meat/dairy/eggs but i'd suggest drastically limiting them. instead of having two eggs every morning perhaps have them once a week. a tofu/veggie scramble looks very much like scrambled eggs in both color and texture, has WAY more usable protein, and lacks the detrimental consequences eggs and animal-based protein have on the body.

    instead of having meat every day at dinner limit this intake to 3x/weekly. this way not only can you afford to eat types of meat that are much, much leaner but again you're not constantly bombarding your body with meat and the accompanying detrimental impact.

    the most important thing is not to "go on a diet" but rather to make a "lifestyle change" by adopting a diet (i.e. way of eating) that you will stick with long term. simple changes in diet such as a drastic reduction in meat/dairy will greatly reduce the risk of developing a lifestyle disease like heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc.

    just keep with it, don't let the scale dictate your success/failure, and keep your eye on the prize. it's common to see huge weight loss at first, then a "stall", then much smaller changes over time. in years of working with people as both a nurse and a lifestyle coach i can tell you that the more meat/dairy is taken out of the equation to fast the results and benefits seem to come.

    make diet/activity changes you can and WILL live with and stick to. have realistic expectations that this is a life-long lifestyle modification rather than a short term "diet". have realistic expectations that just because you may not be seeing drastic number changes on the scale that there is, in fact, great benefit being reaped from your change. weight loss you can see on the inside, but the benefit to your cardiovascular system such as reduction of plaque and softening of the arteries you cannot.

    good on ya for making the change. not only are you adding years to your life, but life to your years.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigb2000 View Post
    I'm vegan and never count calories. It's one of the benefits of a plant diet if done right, I believe Oreos are vegan, as well as, most beer. Skip the processed foods and soft drinks. Raw vegan is hardcore in the long term. Regular vegan plus a cheat day once in a while is much more successful long term. Protein on no raw shouldn't be an issue.
    same here. i don't count calories/fat/protein/carbs either, and i eat a LOT. adequate carbs/protein for an athlete on a proper vegan diet isn't an issue at all. as you mentioned, oreos and most beers are vegan but that doesn't mean they're therefore intrinsically good for the body. a varied vegan diet will result in more than adequate and balanced nutrition without the need to count servings or calories. you can literally eat all you want and get the right kind of carbs your body runs on and protein it needs for recovery.

    as another poster mentioned both meat and dairy are irritants to the body. that doesn't mean that one can't see results with protein from animal-based sources, but it does mean that it further stresses the body and will make it more susceptible to illness. meat/dairy cause the body to become more acidic than alkaline which is not a good thing. diseases (especially cancer) thrive in an acidic environment. dairy intake also leads to reduced bone density and weak teeth and can result in insulin dependent diabetes, as well as coronary damage due to the cholesterol. so USE SPARINGLY if at all.

    other areas of huge empty calories in a vegan diet are white rice, processed sugars, and enriched flours. whether vegan or not these should be avoided as they do the body absolutely no good. brown rice and unprocessed whole grains are the way to go. basically, if it's processed/packaged/boxed it should pretty much be avoided.

    in the end, though, it's a diet/lifestyle change rather than a short-term diet that will result in the best overall health and fitness for a lifetime. benefits are loss of extra weight without even having to try, more vitality, more endurance, higher libido, and shorter recovery times.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    a tofu/veggie scramble looks very much like scrambled eggs in both color and texture, has WAY more usable protein,
    Pretty sure eggs are considered to be one of if not the most complete and bioavailable source of protein.

    I also find it funny that vegans are often so anti-animal product but go to great lengths to produce products that mimic meat and animal foods.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Yeah, sounds like if you increase the protein some but more or less maintain the way you are eating, you'll be on the right path. Even add in a protein shake once a day would be a quick and easy way to get a good dose of protein. Personally, I shoot for 75-100g a day. I do this with a combo of meat/fish, eggs, and protein powder. Then whatever I get from the plant based food I eat is just bonus. Like stated, diets fail. New eating habits have to be formed in order to be successful long term. Diets are ok for trimming down for a beach vacation or because you are a competitive bodybuilder or need to squeeze into a tux/dress for a special occasion, but for those of us that are doing it for health reasons...diets are not the answer. Sounds like you're on your way to success, just keep it up and when that weight starts melting off and the riding gets easier/more fun, you'll be even more motivated.
    Once again great, well intended and informed, practical advice from Nubster.
    Round and round we go

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Pretty sure eggs are considered to be one of if not the most complete and bioavailable source of protein.

    I also find it funny that vegans are often so anti-animal product but go to great lengths to produce products that mimic meat and animal foods.
    yup, you're right
    eggs - AskMen

    yup, right again
    Healthy Protein Food Sources - WebMD: Eggs, Milk, Cheese, Pork, and More
    Round and round we go

  25. #25
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    I really appreciate the effort you guys are making to give me great information. So I took the weekend off of riding. Tonight when I go out I am going to go for longer. I am adding 2 protien shakes a day, cutting my eggs to 1 and going to eat fish every other day at supper. I weighed myself last night and am down to 220lbs. My stomach fat feels seperate fron the rest of me, almost loose if you know what I mean. I am going to get a heart rate monitor and ride every other day for longer periods. On days off from riding my oldest son and I are going to hit the gym for an upper body workout. Hopefully this change now will keep me from plateauing and keep the fat coming off. This is a genuine lifestyle change for me.
    Thanks for your support.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    a tofu/veggie scramble looks very much like scrambled eggs in both color and texture, has WAY more usable protein,
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Pretty sure eggs are considered to be one of if not the most complete and bioavailable source of protein.
    2 servings tofu = 20g protein.
    2 servings eggs = 12g protein.

    pretty sure 20>12. arguably "WAY more". some might even go so far as to say almost DOUBLE.

    here are some other plant based complete protein sources that trump eggs in grams protein per serving:

    quinoa = 8g
    hempseed = 10g
    mycoprotein = 13g
    rice and beans = 7g
    ezekiel bread = 8g
    seitan = 21g

    also noticed you cut the sentence in half leaving this out... "and lacks the detrimental consequences eggs and animal-based protein have on the body."

    even if eggs did contain more grams of complete protein than tofu, tofu has a higher protein to calorie ratio than eggs. along with less fat and zero animal-based cholesterol. the latter is especially important since animal fats/cholesterol are extremely damaging to the cardiovascular system while plant based proteins are not - even in insanely high amounts.

    however, in a sense it's all moot since it's not necessary to consume complete proteins in a single meal. a varied plant based diet will provide all the amino acids necessary and the body will do the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster
    I also find it funny that vegans are often so anti-animal product but go to great lengths to produce products that mimic meat and animal foods.
    personally i'm "pro-health" rather than "anti-meat", and this is why i chose and promote a primarily plant based diet.

    while i can't speak for all who've chosen this path most seem to do so for heath/ethics reasons rather than merely disliking the taste of meat, so it doesn't seem surprising in the least that there's a market for meatless alternatives to animal carcases/secretions/eggs.

    for one thing, they are a good transition food for those making a change to a more plant-based diet - making it easier to substitute a more healthy option to meat in a familiar form. for another, many animal based products taste good - so what's the problem enjoying something with a similar taste/texture without the health penalties associated with the consumption of animals and their byproducts? for yet another, for many it's a nice option at picnics/bbqs/thanksgiving/etc to have a non-meat alternative similar to what other are consuming.

    so all things considered it doesn't seem that odd that there's a market/desire for more heart/health friendly alternatives to meat/dairy products. even less difficult to understand for a life-long carnivore seeking to make some healthy lifestyle modifications.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    I really appreciate the effort you guys are making to give me great information. So I took the weekend off of riding. Tonight when I go out I am going to go for longer. I am adding 2 protien shakes a day, cutting my eggs to 1 and going to eat fish every other day at supper. I weighed myself last night and am down to 220lbs. My stomach fat feels seperate fron the rest of me, almost loose if you know what I mean. I am going to get a heart rate monitor and ride every other day for longer periods. On days off from riding my oldest son and I are going to hit the gym for an upper body workout. Hopefully this change now will keep me from plateauing and keep the fat coming off. This is a genuine lifestyle change for me.
    Thanks for your support.
    sounds like a good plan! you have realistic goals and expectations along with a plan to meet them. it always thrills me to see someone taking charge of their health and making some good, solid lifestyle changes. glad to help in any way possible.

    just to clarify, the purpose of going longer is to get your heart into the proper zone and keep it there for 35-45 minutes. this allows for some warm-up and cool-down time. incorporating weight training and intervals will help prevent your body from "getting used" to the exercise, in addition to the fact that muscle burns more energy than fat. not to mention that interval training is excellent for endurance as well. as you become more fit you can add more time as it will not only benefit but you'll be in shape and can actually genuinely enjoy more time on the bike at a strenuous level.

    next, good plan on the diet mod too. while animal based diets are very hard on the cardiovascular system (hardening/plaque/occlusion) the good news is this damage can almost always be reversed. i've had patients that have seen remarkable change simply by adopting a plant-based diet, including some that have avoided open heart surgery by reversing occlusion! countless others that have reversed hyperlipidemia and ended their dependence on the associated meds as well. same with many insulin dependent diabetics. as hippocrates said, "let the food be thy medicine, and medicine be thy food".

    don't get discouraged when you plateau, because it WILL happen. most people will generally see a very rapid fat loss in the first days and weeks of initiation of an exercise program and lifestyle change (as you seem to be with a "loose" stomach), but it will taper off and become more slow and steady. this is normal. the important thing is to eat a LOT, otherwise the body will think it's enduring a famine and will actually hoard fat. the trick is to consume a large amount of plant based foods, whether raw or not, as this keeps the calorie to fat ratio very low and give the body plenty of fuel to run on and repair itself with as it is shedding the fat. oh, and when preparing your fish/eggs try to steam/poach rather than fry as this keeps the calories/fat low and prevents the formation of many carcinogens that result from frying.

    again, good on you for making some positive health/lifestyle changes!

    you're an inspiration, please keep us posted.
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    Protein shakes can vary and be loaded with unwanted calories and sugars. I would stick with an all natural whey protein that tastes good. I like this one Naturally Flavored 100% Whey Gold Standard - $30.89 | Optimum Nutrition: True Strength but there's many others. Don't concern yourself with whey isolate vs concentrate vs hydrolysate, chose one based on taste and stats. Also think 2 protein shakes a day is too much and would rather get it from natural food sources. You have a window of about an hour after exercise to feed your muscles and help with recovery in a big way, so that would be the best time for that fast absorbing protein shake. The next best time would be when you wake. Again if you're trying to trim down and like to eat 2 shakes a day may be too much. Oh, and for most that gassy bloated feeling that protein shakes can give you will pass in a couple of weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    2 servings tofu = 20g protein.
    2 servings eggs = 12g protein.

    pretty sure 20>12. arguably "WAY more". some might even go so far as to say almost DOUBLE.

    here are some other plant based complete protein sources that trump eggs in grams protein per serving:
    Perhaps if you'd read a little closer you'll notice I said nothing about eggs have MORE protein. I stated that they were one of if not the most complete and bio-available protein sources.
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    Yup, ^ and the thread was the op's, not about disease prevention, nor a smart assed math lesson. But way to go with following me into yet another thread and turning it to sh!t with your obvious cognitive dissonance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Protein shakes can vary and be loaded with unwanted calories and sugars. I would stick with an all natural whey protein that tastes good. I like this one Naturally Flavored 100% Whey Gold Standard - $30.89 | Optimum Nutrition: True Strength but there's many others. Don't concern yourself with whey isolate vs concentrate vs hydrolysate, chose one based on taste and stats. Also think 2 protein shakes a day is too much and would rather get it from natural food sources. You have a window of about an hour after exercise to feed your muscles and help with recovery in a big way, so that would be the best time for that fast absorbing protein shake. The next best time would be when you wake. Again if you're trying to trim down and like to eat 2 shakes a day may be too much. Oh, and for most that gassy bloated feeling that protein shakes can give you will pass in a couple of weeks.
    I try to avoid too much whey as well but sometimes because of time or just not feeling like eating...it's a good way to squeeze in that extra protein if the rest of your day has been a little low. There are a lot of days that I eat mostly fruit just because I'm in the mood so I may have a couple smoothies with some whey to satisfy my protein needs. It's also excellent for post ride. I treat most of my rides as a workout in that I try to always have a protein shake within 30 minutes of finishing the ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    I try to avoid too much whey as well but sometimes because of time or just not feeling like eating...it's a good way to squeeze in that extra protein if the rest of your day has been a little low. There are a lot of days that I eat mostly fruit just because I'm in the mood so I may have a couple smoothies with some whey to satisfy my protein needs. It's also excellent for post ride. I treat most of my rides as a workout in that I try to always have a protein shake within 30 minutes of finishing the ride.
    A smart man ^ who has learned. I look at eating pretty clean and regular as a lifestyle, but look at any exercise efforts longer then 30 minutes as a possible advancement so I try to have a protein shake within an hour to realize it's full potential also. It's amazing how diet and timing of it can propel your progress, or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Perhaps if you'd read a little closer you'll notice I said nothing about eggs have MORE protein. I stated that they were one of if not the most complete and bio-available protein sources.
    in other words, when you quoted and replied to my statement that soy has way more protein than eggs you're saying your reply had nothing whatsoever to do with it? c'mon, man... that's silly talk. the implication was clearly there that eggs were a superior protein source to soy.

    perhaps you noticed i provided many other complete and bio-available protein sources that lack "the detrimental consequences eggs and animal-based protein have on the body". absolutely no argument that eggs certainly are "a" complete protein source but they can hardly be in the running for "the most" when there are options that provide many more grams of complete protein per serving (some 2x) without the associated deficits of animal protein. and at a much higher ratio of protein to calories to boot.

    the OP made mention of moving to a more plant-based diet for heath reasons and i'm simply providing information in this vein. it's just about sharing info, so please don't get your drawers all twisted up and make it a personal war like sniffles did and always does. there's no reason to take my reply as a personal attack, it was just alternative/supplemental data to info we had both shared.

    it's a discussion forum. we're discussing. be cool, bro. there's no need to follow meat's example and be a whiny, sniveling crybaby about it.
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    In my posts you can not find one single statement where I am getting my drawers twisted or making it a personal war. If you can, please show me where anything I said would indicate that.

    Like you said, this is a discussion forum and I am discussing protein sources. You are the one that seemed to confuse more protein with better protein. More isn't always better. If you'd like, in the name of discussion, please post some links that show some science proving that your plant based proteins are better than eggs in the quality of protein and the bio-availability. Not the amount, that's not what I'm talking about, but the quality.

    Seems like only one of us is calling names and being a baby...but it's certainly not me.
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    If you guys can keep this to a discussion and not an argument I am all for it. I like to learn as much as possible. Different views and discussing them with good material to back up claims makes me more informed.
    I am aware of getting a good dose of protien after working out. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    the OP made mention of moving to a more plant-based diet for heath reasons and i'm simply providing information in this vein. it's just about sharing info, so please don't get your drawers all twisted up and make it a personal war like sniffles did and always does. there's no reason to take my reply as a personal attack, it was just alternative/supplemental data to info we had both shared.
    He made mention of eating better by eating a quasi vegan/raw type diet for weight-loss but he is also looking into the option of a Paleo style diet. So the way I see it, he isn't set on making his diet plant based. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I am very plant based in my eating habits but I don't exclude meat or eggs or dairy 100%. I lost 80+ pounds and my blood work was perfect after a year of eating in such a manner. Proof as far as I'm concerned is in the non-vegan pudding.
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    as for the differences in protein powders (i.e. concentrate, isolate, and hydrolysate) the differences lie in the % of protein per serving and the amount of carbs per serving. concentrate generally contains about %70 protein and retains all the carbs. isolate is the isolation of the protein itself and is the most pure, with everything else (including carbs) being removed. hydrolysate is when the protein is broken down for faster absorption, or "predigested". so there are very distinct differences between the variants to consider when selecting a protein supplement.

    as far as overdoing it there can be a problem with too much animal based protein, but not too much plant based. a continued excess of animal based protein can be hard on the body. keep in mind too that most people have some degree of lactose intolerance. this can manifest itself in many ways such as bloating, cramping, gas, loose stools, and even mimicking allergies.

    one of the biggest differences between whey and soy protein is whey is available to the body very fast but for a short time, whereas soy protein is available much longer. in other words, whey provides a burst while soy provides a more deliberate and prolonged release of protein.

    soy, like whey, scores a 1.0 on the PDCAAS which is a perfect score. because soy is a complete protein it will also enhance the nutritional value of other foods. there are a lot of myths surrounding soy protein but it is a well researched and proven source of complete protein, even offering benefits not found with whey.

    a few include:

    • soy protein reduces cholesterol thereby lowering the likelihood of coronary disease.
    • soy protein will lower LDL whereas animal based proteins will more likely increase it.
    • isoflavones (bioactive compounds found in soy protein) have been found to reduce the risk of many types of cancer as well as osteoporosis. animal based proteins have been shown to increase the risk. in fact, there's a direct correlation between dairy consumption and increased risk of osteoporosis, but that's another topic altogether.
    • these isoflavones also have an antioxidant effect which decreases recovery time along with inflammation and soreness post-exertion.


    milk protein has also been irrefutably linked to both juvenile and adult onset insulin dependent diabetes. this is because the milk protein is seen as an antigen by the bodies of many. in turn the body produces antibodies which destroy these proteins. however, and especially with casein protein, the body's antibodies will often then turn, attack, and destroy the beta cells in the islet of langerhans which produce insulin in the pancreas. once these cells are destroyed they are gone forever.

    just more info so you can make an informed choice when selecting a protein supplement.

    again, kudos to you for making such an important and awesome life evaluation and change.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    You are the one that seemed to confuse more protein with better protein. More isn't always better.
    "more is better" is not the gist of my overall position. as was clearly pointed out there are other factors at play as well.

    if one is seeking to ingest "X" grams of protein then it is reasonable to suggest that one source may be better than another for meeting this need, and it may come down to grams per serving combined with other attributes. for example, if one can get almost twice the protein in one source as from another and WITHOUT the added fats and calories it could arguably be considered a better source. it's further arguable that the source with fewer grams protein per serving but also WITHOUT the added fats and calories could arguably be considered a better protein source.

    soy has many benefits that animal based proteins (eggs) cannot offer, such as:

    • soy protein reduces cholesterol thereby lowering the likelihood of coronary disease.
    • soy protein will lower LDL whereas animal based proteins will more likely increase it.
    • isoflavones (bioactive compounds found in soy protein) have been found to reduce the risk of many types of cancer as well as osteoporosis. animal based proteins have been shown to increase the risk. in fact, there's a direct correlation between dairy consumption and increased risk of osteoporosis, but that's another topic altogether.
    • these isoflavones also have an antioxidant effect which decreases recovery time along with inflammation and soreness post-exertion.


    thus, it is again arguable that a protein source offering these benefits (soy) is superior to a protein source (eggs) which does not. the fact that the this protein source also happens to offer more protein per serving is simply icing on the cake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster
    Seems like only one of us is calling names and being a baby...but it's certainly not me.
    indeed. but don't worry about meat's little outburst, he does that all the time.
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    There's a lot to be said about soy being an unhealthy option too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    There's a lot to be said about soy being an unhealthy option too.
    the most common being "myth" and "misinformation".
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    Well, vegans think meat eaters are the devil and will be dead by 50. Meat eaters think vegans are malnourished self absorbed douchebags that spread falsities in order to further their agenda.

    Fact is, there's probably no actual unbiased information out there on diet/food. I can find more info on soy being bad including "research" and articles by medical experts/doctors than I'd ever care to read. I'm sure the same can be said about eggs or any other food out there. It doesn't matter to me what anyone else eats. I choose my diet based on what works for me and that IS all that matters.
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    Nubster hit it on the head. I want to find out what options work best for me and will try what looks right for me and adjust as needed. I love a good discussion. I may go to more meat .I may try no meat at all. not 100% sure yet but losing meat for the most part hasn't caused me any issues thus far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    Well, vegans think meat eaters are the devil and will be dead by 50. Meat eaters think vegans are malnourished self absorbed douchebags that spread falsities in order to further their agenda.

    Fact is, there's probably no actual unbiased information out there on diet/food. I can find more info on soy being bad including "research" and articles by medical experts/doctors than I'd ever care to read. I'm sure the same can be said about eggs or any other food out there. It doesn't matter to me what anyone else eats. I choose my diet based on what works for me and that IS all that matters.
    wow. that escalated quickly. don't look now, but it sure looks like you're getting your diapers twisted. that you have so overtly and hostilely taken this discussion as a personal affront certainly seems to validate my previous post. since you're now resorting to ad homs, red herrings, and straw men it would stand to reason that any kind of productive exchange of information on your behalf has concluded.

    be that as it may, the fact is that there is a plethora of actual unbiased information out there on diet/food.

    like you, it doesn't matter to me what anyone else eats - but that's a red herring because that's not what we're discussing nor have i stated otherwise. in fact, i even stated point blank, "i'm not saying you are wrong to eat meat/dairy/eggs but i'd suggest drastically limiting them" to be sure that the data being shared was in no way misconstrued as a personal indictment. nor have either you or the OP been castigated, demeaned, or ridiculed for your food choices so your defensive posture is certainly unwarranted.

    even when people who are paying me to help them with a lifestyle change refuse to consider information or follow suggestions i don't denigrate them for doing so. it's their money. their health. their choice. freedom to live one's life as they see fit is the most basic of freedoms, provided it causes no one else harm.

    do i have an agenda to promote a more plant-based diet with sparing use of animal flesh/byproducts? certainly. i'm very up front about it and don't hide it. know why i have such an agenda? i work in health care and i've seen first hand the detrimental effects of lifestyle choices.

    i've worked in post CABG (coronary artery bypass graft) units and seen relatively young people with life threatening occlusions due almost entirely to what they've put in their mouths. i've spent a lot of time in coronary cath labs and have witnessed in real time the damage that a diet rich in animal flesh/byproducts has caused. i've worked in the e.r. and seen relatively young people present with heart attacks and strokes either losing their lives or suffering permanent damage due to what they've put in their mouths. i've seen the damage that carrying extra weight has caused on a multi-systemic level, and helped people rehab from disease they brought upon themselves via their fork. i've listened to countless people in these situations lament a lifetime of pleasing their taste buds when it comes time to "pay the check". i've helped countless people reverse lifestyle illnesses like CAD, diabetes, and hyperlipidemia without drugs and surgery merely by changing what goes into their mouth.

    my agenda is to provide relevant, accurate information on the topic so people can make up their own minds. that's why i discuss it here and on other forums and will continue to do so. that's why i've given scores of seminars and lectures on health, nutrition, and disease prevention. that's why i'm in the healthcare profession. my goal is not to convert people to "the plant side" but to provide the information so they can make an informed choice and to help them reach their goals, whether it's full vegan, laco-ovo, or primarily plant based with varying amounts of animal derived foods.

    so thanks for the discussion, it's unfortunate you've elected to end it in this manner but it's a paradigm i've seen frequently over the years in this and other areas. for the record, i say eat what you want. own it. be proud of it. i wholeheartedly defend your right to stuff whatever you wish into your mouth and to hold whatever opinion you wish irrespective of our agreement in the matters - though i will point out that our mere opinions were not the topic of discussion.

    as hippocrates said, "there are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance."

    and btw, nubster, a big congrats on dumping 80 lbs., that's quite an achievement! kudos to you for taking charge of your life and health and making a change. best of luck as you whittle away the remaining 40-50, i wish you all the best.
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    Like I said, plenty of "science" to support either side. Some people act simply on ethics, some on science, some because they don't know any better. Take the info you find, apply it to your life, and figure out what works best. I said it once already, I've lost a lot of weight and have perfect blood work eating meat (Paleo). Not a meat based diet like most SAD folks, but I do include it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    I said it once already, I've lost a lot of weight and have perfect blood work eating meat (Paleo). Not a meat based diet like most SAD folks, but I do include it.
    so if, by your own admission, your diet isn't meat based it would stand to reason it's plant based. correct? i believe you said "tons of vegetables and probably too much fruit" combined with cutting way back on meat and dairy. now where have i heard that before?

    in other words, despite the fact we're pretty much in agreement on limiting animal flesh/byproducts and adopting a plant based diet you've gone to a great deal of effort to argue against a lifestyle choice you support, promote, live by, and have lost nearly 100lbs by following. yep... makes total sense.

    congrats again on your weight loss. keep up the good work!
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    The great thing about biking is that the better you become, the better you'll want to be at it.

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    monogod,
    I'm curious as to what other bad habits those young people had that you referred to other than putting animal flesh/byproducts in their mouths?

    Young active people that don't overindulge do not end up in the hospital because they put meat and eggs their mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmscustom View Post
    monogod,
    I'm curious as to what other bad habits those young people had that you referred to other than putting animal flesh/byproducts in their mouths?

    Young active people that don't overindulge do not end up in the hospital because they put meat and eggs their mouth.
    I see you're new here, let me try to explain
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  50. #50
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    Plateauing with fitness gains, taking time off and changing it up has already been brought up and is true for everyone across the board eventually. When diet plateaus has not been brought up much yet so some ideas to consider. Leaving yourself wiggle room to make improvements is a good idea if you're realizing progress. Another great trick many find useful is to fast for 1 day every month or 2. I can't sleep on an empty stomach so for me after dinner 1 night I won't eat anything till dinner the next day. Make sure to drink plenty/extra water, and try to plan it on an off from exercise day. We all give our body rest time from exercise to recoup, giving your digestive system a break is also a good idea. It also gets your body wondering what's coming next so this is especially useful when plateauing, or right before you're making more changes to your diet.
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    Great plan. I am going to change my diet slightly. I am going to see if I can go all veggie for a few weeks but this weekend coming we have a wedding so Monday will have to be day one. I am actually going to eat something crappy thursday and friday so I don't spend the reception on the toilet from the food change.(I hope) I tried grilling extra firm tofu and it was actually quite good.I am hoping I can get enough protien with tofu and whey. So all fruit and veggie for July, then reevaluate and tweak again. The weather has gone to crap here the last few days and it has been storming way to hard to ride. I am going for a rain run (road) tonight as long as there is no gale force wind again.
    The tips are great guys. Thank you all. Keep it coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmscustom View Post
    monogod,
    I'm curious as to what other bad habits those young people had that you referred to other than putting animal flesh/byproducts in their mouths?

    Young active people that don't overindulge do not end up in the hospital because they put meat and eggs their mouth.
    it's a given that the more bad habits one has the more likely they are to enter the health care system at an earlier age. however, i was not referring to that end of the spectrum.

    first of all, define "overindulge". for some it may be meat/dairy >3x weekly. for some 3x in a meal is not overindulgence.

    query: is it possible that "what they've put in their mouths" may encompass more than merely meat and eggs?

    the reason that i ask is that you seem to be taking out of context statements used to qualify my impetus for shamelessly promoting "a more plant-based diet with sparing use of animal flesh/byproducts". rather than taking it as clearly presented it seems you've perhaps misconstrued it as shrieking a warning that anyone who eats an egg will drop dead tomorrow.

    some might even argue that a person with "a more plant-based diet who sparingly uses animal flesh/byproducts" sounds remarkably similar to someone that doesn't overindulge, doesn't it? food for thought, so to speak.

    giving you the benefit of the doubt that these are genuine questions that stem from either curiosity, a desire to discuss an area of interest to you, or merely an honest misunderstanding rather than a seemingly blatant attempt at trolling i'll take the time to add a couple more things.

    one is that we are starting to see more and more teens and even pre-teens present with atherosclerosis, coronary artery disease, and carotid artery disease. cath lab patients are getting younger and younger. not just fat, doughy, sedentary couch blobs mind you - but active people and even athletes too. when this occurs it is almost always directly related to diet, or what they "put in their mouths". in these cases it is due almost solely to the standard american diet (SAD) including regular intake of fried foods, packaged and heavily processed/salted foods, sodas (diet and regular), and so forth.

    juvenile and adult onset diabetes have also risen in the last couple of decades, again traceable almost entirely to what people put in their mouths. there are are couple main causative factors, one is an auto-immune response to dairy and another is simply overworking the pancreas.

    cancer rates are through the roof to the point where it has become an almost accepted part of life for the average american. this should not be so. epidemiologic studies show time and again that the higher plant based content a culture's diet has the lower the correlating instances of lifestyle disease are. and it is NOT race and/or genetics, for when members of these cultures adopt a more american diet (higher in animal based content) a corollary increase of lifestyle diseases is observed.

    the reason that younger and younger people are falling victim to lifestyle diseases (especially coronary artery disease) is that vascular occlusion is caused almost solely by DIET, or as some might say, "what they've put in their mouths". even though an active lifestyle can prevent excess fat from building up on the outside it still cannot completely deter the damage that is done internally to the cardiovascular system by consistent ingestion of animal fats/protein and other dietary disasters. this is why were are seeing more and more relative young people, including young adults and even teens, in the medical system with the type of advanced cardiovascular disease we once saw only in those of much more advanced age (think late middle age to early old age).
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    Would argue that it has more to do with massive increases in sugar, corn, pesticides, preservatives, gmos, processed junk, plastics, pollution, conveniences that make you lazy, etc. All my grandparents lived till their 90's, most of them smoked and all 4 ate whatever they wanted and whatever they had. Meanwhile my father died at 68 and was considered fit and health conscious. My mom is doing alright but with the issues she has so far it's doubtful she'll make 90. While there is some truths mixed up with all the above post's drama/resume/verbal masturbation, no one has it figured out so why even pretend to. First it was cholesterol was bad, then we learned there's good cholesterol. Fat was bad and now we need some. Soy was the greatest thing since slice bread now we're finding all sorts of bad crap about that too, including gmo and pesticides, and on and on. And am I the only one who would rather die from cancer then read that freakin babble? Are we supposed to thank mono for derailing a thread into omg you're going to die from cancer, and insulting everyone who disagrees with him because he pretends to know everything on the internet? Don't know why i took a peek, that's it, back on ignore list
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    Great plan. I am going to change my diet slightly. I am going to see if I can go all veggie for a few weeks but this weekend coming we have a wedding so Monday will have to be day one. I am actually going to eat something crappy thursday and friday so I don't spend the reception on the toilet from the food change.(I hope) I tried grilling extra firm tofu and it was actually quite good.I am hoping I can get enough protien with tofu and whey. So all fruit and veggie for July, then reevaluate and tweak again. The weather has gone to crap here the last few days and it has been storming way to hard to ride. I am going for a rain run (road) tonight as long as there is no gale force wind again.
    The tips are great guys. Thank you all. Keep it coming.
    something to keep in mind when moving to a more plant-based diet is that many people often feel poorly for a few days up to a few weeks. this is due to the detoxification process that occurs. for some it's very noticeable for some not so much. some even have allergy-like symptoms with itchy, watery eyes while some may have flu-like symptoms including fever, weakness, muscle aches, and general malaise. a few experience it all! many give up and report that they tried eating better, but it made them feel horrible so they went back to their old diet. however, it's just the process of detox and will pass. thought this would bear mentioning to keep in mind when you reevaluate to tweak.

    getting adequate protein without meat is comically easy, so don't sweat it. especially if you're considering supplements. large animals with plant-based diets like elephants have no problems getting their nutritional needs met without meat and neither will you. keep in mind that in addition to tofu many grains are protein rich as well. the more you know, the easier it will be.

    there are some great tips for cooking with tofu, one being using firm in many dishes. not only does it have more protein per serving but it holds together much better when cooking with it in stir fry and other dishes. if you freeze and thaw it before cooking with it the consistency will change as well. softer tofu is good for eggless salad, soups, and deserts. i can hit you up with a few more tips if you're interested.

    also, there's a great book to check out called "the new becoming vegan". it's an updated edition of a great book that's great for people looking into adopting a more plant-based diet and i recommend it to all my clients/patients whether they are going completely vegan or merely altering their diet to a more plant-based bias. if i were going to recommend only one on the topic of plant-based nutriton, this would be it. well written, informative, and easy to understand.

    here's a few good recipes that have a wide variety of dishes. i'll post up a couple of links to some great cookbooks later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    so if, by your own admission, your diet isn't meat based it would stand to reason it's plant based. correct? i believe you said "tons of vegetables and probably too much fruit" combined with cutting way back on meat and dairy. now where have i heard that before?

    in other words, despite the fact we're pretty much in agreement on limiting animal flesh/byproducts and adopting a plant based diet you've gone to a great deal of effort to argue against a lifestyle choice you support, promote, live by, and have lost nearly 100lbs by following. yep... makes total sense.

    congrats again on your weight loss. keep up the good work!
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    TheMeat pretty much covered it and I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm not equipped, have the time or have enough give a s**t to get into a typing battle with you. Maybe I'm not edumacated enough to get your true intentions in your posts but you come off as just another holier than thou individual trying to push your beliefs with long winded half truths.

    I eat lots of meat, eggs, veggies and fruit. A lot of the meat I kill myself and the rest I know where it comes from, same goes for the eggs. I try to stay away from all the processed crap (including grains) and eat very little dairy. I work a physical job and enjoy physical/active hobbies and so far I haven't landed in the ER because of what I put in my mouth

    Sorry for adding to the derail... I'm out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmscustom View Post
    TheMeat pretty much covered it and I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm not equipped, have the time or have enough give a s**t to get into a typing battle with you. Maybe I'm not edumacated enough to get your true intentions in your posts but you come off as just another holier than thou individual trying to push your beliefs with long winded half truths.

    I eat lots of meat, eggs, veggies and fruit. A lot of the meat I kill myself and the rest I know where it comes from, same goes for the eggs. I try to stay away from all the processed crap (including grains) and eat very little dairy. I work a physical job and enjoy physical/active hobbies and so far I haven't landed in the ER because of what I put in my mouth

    Sorry for adding to the derail... I'm out.
    Even though I engaged in spirited discussion with monogod, I do agree with him on the point that consumption of meat and dairy should be reduced. IMO, it doesn't need to be eliminated, but basing a meal around a huge chunk of meat 3-5 times a day is problematic. Either small amounts per meal or with one meal per day is a better option. Or better yet reduce it to only 3-4 times per week and the other days eat vegan/vegetarian. If you look at cultures in Asia you'll see that's what they do and those areas that do eat like that have some of the highest life expectancy as well as much, much lower instances of heart disease and cancer. You're certainly doing better still than probably the majority of people out there but I'd still suggest lowering the meat consumption or at least do some research on the subject and make your choices based on that information or of course, you can always completely ignore me or even goes as far as to tell me to pound sand.
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    My "lots of meat" comment might be a little misleading... While meat/eggs are usually part of at least 2 out of 3 meals a day for me I try to roughly follow the "deck of cards" rule and surround it with veggies and use fruit and nuts for snacks. I would agree that eating a meat majority diet would not be good.

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    Like I said. I will try the vegan thing for a few weeks and reevaluate based on how I feel and how my excersise progresses. I will be adding meat but how much and how often is yet to be determined. Funny thing here is a few weeks off of having meat being the main dish all the time and I just plain feel better, no...cleaner inside..no...well different in a positve manner that is hard to explain. More awake when I am awake and more sleepy when tired. Actually a noticeable change is the consistency of my saliva in my mouth. Much more fluid and my tongue feels like I power washed it. Mind you I don't expect this is just from meat but from giving up anything with glucose/fructose sweeteners, flour and processed foods.

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    Good points Nubster, and it's hard to argue that vegans and vegetarians don't have a good track record.
    When compared to an Asian diet thou there's other factors to consider. Like they eat more frequent and a lot more iodine and other nutrients, they eat a lot less processed crap, sugar, foods out of season. Many more don't own a car, most drink small amounts of warm liquids with meals, genetics, etc
    Last edited by theMeat; 06-25-2014 at 11:32 AM.
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    I watch the amount of soy in my vegan diet. I rarely eat tofu and never soy milk. It's almond milk, beans, sweet potatoes, kale and such for me. Vegan works for me, and others I've helped along the way. Too many personal factors to say that plant based or meat based people live longer. DNA plays a role. I also think protein overload isn't necessary for the average person. To the OP, do your research and try what works for you. It's great that you're concerned with your health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    When compared to an Asian diet thou there's other factors to consider. Like they eat more frequent and a lot more magnesium and other nutrients, they eat a lot less processed crap, sugar, foods out of season. Many more don't own a car, most drink small amounts of warm liquids with meals, genetics, etc
    not really. asians traditionally did not eat more frequently. just the opposite. a morning meal, work in the fields all day, an evening meal. same with mediterraneans, who also enjoy the health and longevity benefits of a plant-based diet. periods of fasting actually help the body in many ways including metabolism and strengthening the immune system.

    asians also don't really eat more micro-nutrients as compared to any other plant-based diet. the only possible exception are areas that consume higher quantities of seaweed, which is high in iodine. however, adequate amounts of iodine can be enjoyed on a balanced plant-based diet without seaweed as well. personally, i love seaweed and put it in lots of my broth-based soups and stir-fry dishes. and sushi. man, i love that stuff and make it all the time! yum!

    modern asians (especially the more wealthy) in larger cities, however, have adopted a much more western method of eating including processed crap and sugar. they see it as a sign of affluence. same with owning cars. fun fact: in bangkok the only thing they serve at dairy queen are blizzards! a nice thing about asia is the strong buddhist culture, which means tons of vegan eateries with delicious food. stupid cheap. many run by bhikkhus. and in case you're peeking again, meat, i lived in asia for a while and visited many countries while i was there so i'm reporting what i actually saw rather than results from the google machine.

    genetics plays little, if any, role in it in the longevity and reduced rate of lifestyle diseases asians have typically enjoyed. it's due primarily to diet. when asians, mediterraneans, and other cultures with a primarily plant-based diet adopt a more western style of eating guess what happens? yup, they suffer from the same lifestyle diseases at pretty much the same rate as do indigenous westerners. conversely, when westerners adopt a more plant-based diet incidences of lifestyle diseases plummet; and do so in correlation to the percentage of plant-based foods consumed.

    so what we've seen in decades of study is that the diseases follow the diet rather than the genes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigb2000 View Post
    Vegan works for me, and others I've helped along the way. Too many personal factors to say that plant based or meat based people live longer. DNA plays a role. I also think protein overload isn't necessary for the average person.
    works for lots of folks. and yes, it's exciting to see it work for others you're helping along the way, isn't it? through the years i've helped and seen many people lose weight, terminate their need for disease management drugs, and completely reverse lifestyle diseases simply by altering what they put in their mouth.

    can't agree with you so much about not being able to definitively say there is no longevity correlation to a plant-based diet though. there have been long term studies of populations and subsets that indicate that vegetarians enjoy an overall longer life span, better quality of life during it, as well as drastically reduced instances of cancer, heart disease, and other lifestyle diseases. empirical evidence of cultural observation routinely demonstrates the same.

    genetics plays a fairly small role. we all either have, or have heard stories of, that person who started smoking when they were a teenager, drank heavily, ate lots of meat and few veggies, and lived to a ripe old age. however, that is the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself. it is precisely these types of people geneticists are studying to find out what prevented them from succumbing to their lifestyle. the truth is that most people eating the standard american diet die prematurely of a lifestyle disease, or live the rest of their life severely incapacitated with a drastically reduced quality of life.

    totally agree with you on the protein myth. it's been pushed by the meat/dairy industry for decades, and it's certainly not like they have an agenda or anything. after all, the food pyramid charts they provided free of charge to schools in the 50's-70's had meat and dairy at the bottom like it was all scientifical and stuff. what a better way to ensure generational product demand than to brainwash potential customers early.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmscustom View Post
    I would agree that eating a meat majority diet would not be good.
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat
    it's hard to argue that vegans and vegetarians don't have a good track record.
    um..... don't look now but you guys are agreeing with me. better not let this get out or your memberships to the "he-man mono hater club" might get revoked. well, meat doesn't have to worry since he's not only a member, he's the president and founder!
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    um..... don't look now but you guys are agreeing with me. better not let this get out or your memberships to the "he-man mono hater club" might get revoked. well, meat doesn't have to worry since he's not only a member, he's the president and founder!
    Don't hate you. I'll say again, you can be very informative, funny sometimes, and if you could stop being such a pompous jerk know it all the site would be better for it. Like how did i know you were going to be an expert on Asian eating habits too. How many people are you going to but heads with and claim they're doing it to you? You go from hong kong (very westernized) to rice fields (very rural) to prove me wrong. What about the rest of asia where the traditional diet is yeah, less red meat, but no shortage of eggs, fish, etc, on a daily basis. Where they do in fact eat smaller more often meals, and walk more, drive less. And what do Mediterraneans have to do with that.
    I never said they eat more macro nutrients, only different, but you twisted that around to serve your look at me, i'm so smart, everyone who disagrees is dumb and has their panties in a bunch, drain on the site popularity contest. Our usda has no set recommended daily for iodine, but says we shouldn't have more than 400 iu, while typical asian diet has 2,000. But you're an expert on that too, which is funny since no one is.
    No kidding, if you eat and live like a fat american you'll be fat too? Should I go on?
    While I'm pleasantly surprised that a response from you, directed towards me doesn't include mean spirited name calling and personal attacks, i have little hope you'll see my point or start to take any responsibility in the fact you make alot of unnecessary bickering round here so ? Althou I welcome you proving me wrong on that fact, with some actions. I mean if you could just show enough self control to stop derailing threads every time someone disagrees with you, that'd be a start.
    Round and round we go

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    You go from hong kong (very westernized) to rice fields (very rural). What about the rest of asia where the traditional diet is yeah, less red meat, but no shortage of eggs, fish, etc, on a daily basis. Where they do in fact eat smaller more often meals, and walk more, drive less. And what do Mediterraneans have to do with that.
    I never said they eat more macro nutrients, only different, Our usda has no set recommended daily for iodine, but says we shouldn't have more than 400 iu, while typical asian diet has 2,000. No kidding, if you eat and live like a fat american you'll be fat too? Should I go on?
    whoa.... thought you had me on ignore. guess that man-crush of yours just got the better of you again.

    after stripping the post of all your inferiority complex sniveling butthurt boo-hooing and assorted other personal-problem tripe that has absolutely no bearing on anything diet related (i.e. "derailing the thread with your issues") it shortened it by a whopping 70%! maybe i'll respond to that crap in a pm. interesting that you don't see your blathering off-topic personal mono-hating rants as derailing, but any response to them is. 10...9...8...

    you actually DID say they ate "a lot more nutrients". i quoted it and responded to it. you specifically said more "magnesium" initially but now i see you've now gone back and changed it to iodine. you said concerning the asian diet they "ate a lot more nutrients" and it was a factor to consider IN ADDITION to diet. it's not. it's part OF the diet itself rather than an extraneous component to be considered.

    as mentioned, they eat no more nutrients than any other plant-based diet with the EXCEPTION of iodine in regions where seaweed and other sea vegetables are part of the diet. part of the problem you seem to have in discussions (and not just with me) is not understanding what you're even responding to. seriously, how the hell can you hope to understand what someone else is saying when you don't even know what YOU said? the fact that the context/relevance of mentioning mediterraneans befuddled you is further demonstrative example.

    first you say genetics is an additional factor be considered in addition to asian diet as a reason for their typical longevity and health. when information to the contrary is provided you do a 180 and state just the opposite. so for the record, which is it? do genetics play a major role or not?

    i said nothing about hong kong. ever.

    regarding "traditionally" in regard to the asian diet and frequency of meals - the traditional asian diet is the one which is most healthy. again, your confusion on this point and why things were mentioned illustrates being in over your head. that's not an insult and there's nothing wrong with that other than you rage against correct information being provided, defame the messenger, and scramble to save face rather than seeing it as an opportunity to learn something. moving away from the traditional diet to one where more non plant-based material that is introduced along with increased frequency of meals reduces the effectiveness and brings it more closely in line to western diet content and eating patterns and reduces its efficacy. get it now?

    and no, in less westernized areas of asia they don't eat more frequently or have of a diet rich in eggs, meat, and dairy on a daily basis. they eat to live rather than for a social activity or for fun. they don't have sweet desert garbage for breakfast, but have savory foods instead. with the prominence of buddhism in asia it is a farily common practice not to even eat in the evenings, and the eateries run by bhikkhus typically close early afternoon. guess who you see out and about at night eating? westerners and affluent/westernized asians. and they're not eating the typical asian diet. but hey, what do i know, right? after all, i just lived there and traveled all over southeast asia.
    Last edited by monogod; 06-26-2014 at 09:50 AM.
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    monogod,

    Could you post up what your perfect day of eating would entail based on a 2000 calorie a day diet? I'm not being smart, just curious what you'd recommend for a patient or for any of us who wanted to make the jump to vegan (or at least mostly vegan).
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    whoa.... thought you had me on ignore. guess that man-crush of yours just got the better of you again.
    I'm normally into big asses but you just don't do it for me, sorry. The rest of your post i did not read, but don't let that stop you. You were on ignore but it doesn't seem to help since you follow me around, and i can still see the many e-tart troll battles you start with many other members when they respond. As well as when they quote you. how many this week alone?

    Thanx Nubster, at least we'll get a post or 2 that's ot, until someone disagrees anyway.

    Not bragging but it's funny how I'm at the weight i want to be at, for my age i'm in great condition, and my doc says whatever i'm doing is working keep it up. It's amazing people can figure this out without any help from mono, but i must admit his grammar is excellent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    I'm normally into big asses but you just don't do it for me, sorry. The rest of your post i did not read, but don't let that stop you. You were on ignore but it doesn't seem to help since you follow me around, and i can still see the many e-tart troll battles you start with many other members when they respond. As well as when they quote you. how many this week alone?

    Thanx Nubster, at least we'll get a post or 2 that's ot, until someone disagrees anyway.

    Not bragging but it's funny how I'm at the weight i want to be at, for my age i'm in great condition, and my doc says whatever i'm doing is working keep it up. It's amazing people can figure this out without any help from mono, but i must admit his grammar is excellent.
    why are you so engrossed and infatuated with my mtbr involvement? what a pathetic, empty life you must lead to feel it's your duty to chronicle, indict, adjudicate, and subsequently attempt to moderate someone's behavior on an interweb forum. your mono-fixation in this and other threads is beyond pathological and starting to be of genuine concern.

    case in point: this thread is about diet, nutrition, and health. yet 5 out of the 69 posts in this thread are your off topic mono-themed rants. they are here, here, here, here, and here.

    that means that 7% of this ENTIRE thread, and 38% of your contribution to it (5 out of 13 posts), is nothing but your mewing, sniveling, personal anti-mono campaign. so who's REALLY off topic and derailing the thread here?

    follow you around? seriously? because one or two of the many threads i participate in happens to be one that you got to first? if that's the case then anyone who ever posts after you in a thread is following you around and out to get you. paranoid and delusional is an understatement.

    seriously, put me back on ignore so mtbr will be spared the mushroom cloud of your psychotic, delusional, emotional fallout resultant to the obsessive man-crush you have.
    Last edited by monogod; 06-26-2014 at 07:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubster View Post
    monogod,

    Could you post up what your perfect day of eating would entail based on a 2000 calorie a day diet? I'm not being smart, just curious what you'd recommend for a patient or for any of us who wanted to make the jump to vegan (or at least mostly vegan).
    there are a few factors to take into consideration and few questions i'd need to ask first. one is vegan or mostly vegan? and if mostly vegan, vegetarian or meat inclusive? what is the current diet? looking to include substitutes are not? looking to make a drastic change or gradual? level of preparation/cooking effort willing to commit to?

    if going full vegan i personally strongly discourage counting calories. that's not to say that some things should be consumed in moderation like oils, nuts and nut butters, seeds, olives, monkey meat (fake meat products), and a few other things; but in general there is no need to count calories when eating a balanced and varied vegan diet. it is far more important to eat a wide variety of colors and types of veggies and fruits than to count calories.

    one thing i do encourage is lots and lots of cruciferous veggies for their high antioxidant and phytochemical content. there have been numerous studies that demonstrate a positive correlation between cruciferous veggies and not only prevention of many cancers but also the reversal of them.

    also encourage quinoa and other whole grains, soups, and eating very lightly in the evening.

    before actually sitting down to plan a menu with someone though, i generally ask them to read "the new becoming vegan" and watch "forks over knives" and take notes. i've found that people are more receptive to menu planning when they have some knowledge going into it. most are generally more apt to adhere to their new diet if they are a proactive part of planning it and understand the mechanics of it rather than simply following a dictated list.

    hope that made sense. i can give you a more concrete diet if we can narrow down a few of the variables i mentioned above.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Ok. It was funny at first and I do appreciate the info here but can we stop comparing manhoods now? Please?

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    Counting calories and paying attention to nutrition is also very important in vegan diets. You can have an unhealthy vegan diet also. A healthy diet can also involve some small amounts of animal products. The operative word is 'small' amount. the typical American consumes and average of 3.5 pounds of food per day, about half a pound as animal source. That is only 1/7 of the total daily consumption, or 14%. Still a lot more animal than you should eat, but hardly rises to the hyperbole of ' a meat based diet'. The USDA recommends about 3-4 ounces of meat per day maximum. The health agencies of various countries recommend a bit more, some less, but all in the general range and way less than the current western average.


    The so called 'Blue Zones' around the world, regions with unusually longevity and low disease rates, have many commonalities in diet, but overall the diets are not the same and vary widely -- some including a fair amount of animal products, other almost pure vegan. Diet is only one of the factors identified in contributing to long life and health.

    China is an interesting example. Earlier mentioned was the low cancer rate in China where animal products are a very small part of the diet. This must be compared, however, to neighboring Mongolia. Very similar ethnicity and genetics, with meat and dairy a much larger part of the typical diet. Yet Mongolia has an even lower cancer rate than China. So diet alone cannot explain cancer rates, and neither can ethnicity/genetics. The complex interrelationship of all the factors is not yet fully understood. You simply cannot pull one out separately (diet) from the rest and declare it the key. This does not mean diet is irrelevant. It is an important factor, you cannot just focus on one aspect, ignoring the rest, and expect success.
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    I have to agree. Maybe not so much calories as much as making sure I get enough protien. Especially being new to this type of diet. I want to lose fat, not weight. Although I check my weight and have a weight based target it's only a guideline and not a magic number. So yeah, paying attention and keeping a record of your food is important, IMHO

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    Quinoa is usually listed as a complete protein, but an asterisk needs to be placed next to the claim.

    Upon analysis, all the essential amino acids will be present, so it meets one definition of complete. HOWEVER -- (here's where the asterisk applies) the amino acids tyrosine and phenylalanine are bound in such a way the body cannot extract and absorb them well. You get only relatively small amounts of those two absorbed and the rest is passed out the other end unused. So some sources claim quinoa is not really a complete protein. It is a definitional dispute and I do not take sides.

    Quinoa has a lower PDCAAS ( a protein quality ranking) score (86) than most animal products. Eggs, tofu, and whey are 100. 86 is still a very good score, though. Peanut butter on whole wheat bread is a complete protein with a PDCAAS score of around 50. Not all complete proteins are equal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    Counting calories and paying attention to nutrition is also very important in vegan diets. You can have an unhealthy vegan diet also. A healthy diet can also involve some small amounts of animal products. The operative word is 'small' amount.
    once can absolutely have an unhealthy vegan diet, but i was referring to a plant-based diet rather than simply one that is free of animal products. apologies if there was some confusion. a vegan diet rich in oreos, potato chips, white bread, hydrogenated oils, processed sugar, and fake meat products is (while vegan) not what i was referring to and would certainly warrant strict calorie counting. however, with a varied and balanced PROPER approach to a plant-based diet i'd suggest calorie counting is not necessary.

    as such, my statement of "calore counting is not necessary" was intentionally a little oversimplified and limited solely to calorie counting - as educating one's self on various protein sources and other nutrients is a given when adopting a vegan diet. or even drastically reducing meat/dairy intake. likewise i'm in total agreement that a healthy diet can involve some small amounts of animal products. as i previously mentioned i'm a huge proponent of a "plant-based diet with sparing use of animal flesh/by-products".

    Quote Originally Posted by dave54
    The so called 'Blue Zones' around the world, regions with unusually longevity and low disease rates, have many commonalities in diet, but overall the diets are not the same and vary widely -- some including a fair amount of animal products, other almost pure vegan. Diet is only one of the factors identified in contributing to long life and health.
    agreed. despite the variances involved, however, i don't think you're arguing that the "exceptions to the rule" are the rule. more often than not increased health and longevity across cultures share the commonality of a more plant-based diet.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave54
    China is an interesting example. Earlier mentioned was the low cancer rate in China where animal products are a very small part of the diet. This must be compared, however, to neighboring Mongolia. Very similar ethnicity and genetics, with meat and dairy a much larger part of the typical diet. Yet Mongolia has an even lower cancer rate than China. So diet alone cannot explain cancer rates, and neither can ethnicity/genetics. The complex interrelationship of all the factors is not yet fully understood. You simply cannot pull one out separately (diet) from the rest and declare it the key. This does not mean diet is irrelevant. It is an important factor, you cannot just focus on one aspect, ignoring the rest, and expect success.
    agreed again. correlation doesn't imply causation, and as such all my eggs aren't solely in the "diet" basket. pun intended.

    mongolia is indeed an interesting case regarding cancer rates, even more so when considering alcoholism and smoking rates within the population are very high. that being said, despite the very low cancer rate the average lifespan of mongolians is 68. that's even less than the american average of 78. begs an interesting question... justify correlating low cancer rate as adoption of a more mongolian-like diet with the downside of a shorter lifespan, or drastically reduce animal content of the diet in favor of a higher likelihood of reduced disease and increased lifespan.

    granted, i know that's not what you're implying here. just pointing out that exceptions to the rules are just that, and that safety seldom lies in the long shot.

    although there is certainly no one single thing that is the answer we were speaking in very simple, general terms to but one narrow aspect of the big picture. diet modification must be combined with lifestyle modifications as well. not just physical exercise but stress/anxiety coping skills, a healthy self-image, quality interpersonal relationships, a positive outlook on life, mental exercise, continued learning, and so on. the epitome of synergistic intercorrelation.

    as with anything else learning about health, disease, and nutrition is the study of a lifetime. the important thing is NOT to take the blue pill.

    great post, dave.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  76. #76
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    Last night I was able to wear a pair of pants that I couldn't even get around my waist at Christmas. It was my oldest boys grad and I wanted to wear a certain pair of pants and thought...maybe?
    Very happy. No weight loss this week but that's ok. I know not to get hung up on numbers. Although 34" beats 36" all day ;-)

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    congrats!!!
    My bike MCA kinda climbs like a billy-goat. WOO WOO!

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    Awesome. If you're waist is smaller yet the scale doesn't see it, that probably means you gained muscle while loosing fat.
    Round and round we go

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    Great post Dave and i welcome more input from you.
    Do you know much about Dr McDougall's work on studying Native Japanese, and Japanese that went to Hawaii? Looks interesting, and echos some of your points.

    How about T Cambell's (if I'm remembering) research?, on how 5% animal proteins was a turn off cancer trigger, while 20% was turn on. Where interestingly enough the 20% subjects did get more cancer yet they still generally outlived the 5% subject that did not.

    Aflatoxin?
    Round and round we go

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    Explain Keith Richards? Just kidding. Burn more than you eat and have fun doing it. For the family guys, include the spouse. It'll make things easier and lead to better success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    Great post Dave and i welcome more input from you.
    Do you know much about Dr McDougall's work on studying Native Japanese, and Japanese that went to Hawaii? Looks interesting, and echos some of your points.

    How about T Cambell's (if I'm remembering) research?, on how 5% animal proteins was a turn off cancer trigger, while 20% was turn on. Where interestingly enough the 20% subjects did get more cancer yet they still generally outlived the 5% subject that did not.

    Aflatoxin?
    just curious, how does mcdougall's work mirror dave's points? mcdougall completely attributes diet to disease prevention and longevity while also suggesting genetics have little if any part to play in it since disease followed diet in the study you mentioned. granted, another poster in the thread made these points but it wasn't dave, who in fact offered COUNTERING points of view to consider.

    the reason i ask is that both mcdougall and cambell suggest that any animal-based material in the diet is too much. both attribute diet as being the key component to disease prevention and longevity, almost completely discounting genetics and other factors. dave, on the other hand, stated, "So diet alone cannot explain cancer rates, and neither can ethnicity/genetics. You simply cannot pull one out separately (diet) from the rest and declare it the key."

    contrary to mcdougall's work dave gave an example of a culture where high amounts of animal products are consumed yet they enjoy a phenomenally low cancer rate. as previously mentioned something that is surprising considering not only the high animal content in the diet but the high instances of alcoholism and smoking within that culture subset as well. the down side, of course, is that they have a much lower life expectancy.

    so i'm genuinely curious what aspects of of mcdougall's work echos dave's points.

    also, i believe you have it completely backward about campbell's study. as i recall, all of the "5% mice" outlived the others.

    and just so there's no confusion, let me be clear that i'm genuinely attempting to have a civil discussion with you. so please don't infer anything else.

    btw, if you haven't read mcdougall's books "the mcdougall program for maximum weight loss" and "the mcdougall program: 12 days to dynamic health" i would highly recommend them.
    Last edited by monogod; 06-27-2014 at 08:15 PM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigb2000 View Post
    Explain Keith Richards?
    that guy has everyone scratching their heads! at only 70 he doesn't look a day over "dead for 20 years".

    burrough's life was another one. the keith richards of his era.

    this was a great interview from '77:

    <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/DnxweVAvE5w" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>
    Last edited by monogod; 06-27-2014 at 11:15 AM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Welk after a weekend of drinking and eating catered wedding food I am happy to report I did not put on a single pound :-)

    Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

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    Well after 5days without a ride and eating everything that is "off limits" I had my strongest ride yet. I powered up three large hills that I have walked my bike up before because I just couldn't do it. I was out with a friend and he was commenting on what I must have taken pre ride. So I think a bit of rest really let my muscles recover so I am going to reduce frequency and increase intensity and duration. Back to good food today.

  85. #85
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    Rest is as important as the workout, maybe more so. If you don't give your body time to recuperate, you'll never grow stronger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
    Well after 5days without a ride and eating everything that is "off limits" I had my strongest ride yet. I powered up three large hills that I have walked my bike up before because I just couldn't do it. I was out with a friend and he was commenting on what I must have taken pre ride. So I think a bit of rest really let my muscles recover so I am going to reduce frequency and increase intensity and duration. Back to good food today.
    I have had this happen to me too...where I took a break from riding, ate more than I should have of foods I know I shouldn't be eating (fast food, etc), then went on a ride and absolutely crushed it, had more energy than I ever expected.

    I chalked it up to the fact that I was taking a break so my muscles could fully recover (and during recovery is where you get stronger) and I was eating plenty of calories (and fat & sodium, etc) so likely my energy reserves were topped off. Hard to call eating like that a training program though...hahah

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    The power of active recovery, learn you must.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WA-CO View Post
    The power of active recovery, learn you must.
    Definately!
    Rode for 90 min, all out again last night. went 31km of mixed single track and gravel(hard packed) community trail. Absolutely killed it. I am amazed at how much stronger I am. I am loving my results thus far. Tonight is about rest and sleep and tomorrow night I plan to hit it again. Thanks for all the info guys. Results prove your right!!!

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