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  1. #1
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    Why no races in Dupont?

    I know a few promoters watch this forum and wanted to ask them, or anybody who knows, why there are no races in Dupont? Is it because it is classified as a recreational area?
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  2. #2
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    All events must be completely non-profit with a designated charitable purpose. This, I believe, means not even the pseudo "non-profit" status of paying yourself a salary as part of operating costs and then anything leftover goes to the charitable purpose. Events also cannot be "races" with prizes and such- just charity rides, maybe with door prizes.

    That does not exactly encouarage promoters who put on races for a business or racers who like to compete.

    That said, although I am defintely not the most up-to-date on these kind of things these days, I think PAS is having the Save the Trails challenge again as a non-profit, strictly fund-raising event. Click on the website in my signature for more info, if it does exist- I am really not certain.
    Last edited by Mike Brown; 07-22-2013 at 10:35 AM. Reason: spelling errot nad more information

  3. #3
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    I figured it was because the NC Forest Service is not real crazy about our recreational activity...But that'd be a guess.
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  4. #4
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    All events must be completely non-profit with a designated charitable purpose. This, I believe, means not even the pseudo "non-profit" status of paying yourself a salary as part of operating costs and then anything leftover goes to the charitable purpose. Events also cannot be "races" with prizes and such- just charity rides, maybe with door prizes.

    Is this because Dupont is a "State recreational forest"?
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  5. #5
    drunken pirate
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    There are races in Dupont. Foot races, but still races, nonetheless.

    Why there are no mountain bike races is an excellent question.
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  6. #6
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    Again, because those foot races or duathlons or whatevers are fund-raisers for charities, not for-profit events. For example, the Du the Asheville Du duathlon is a fundraiser for OpenDoors of Asheville. PAS does have the Save the Trails challenge fund-raiser. Races are money making ventures, which is not endorsed by DuPont management.
    How that sits with letting movie companies pay to use the land or tour companies related to the movies selling tours, I have no idea. If I was a promoter trying to put on a for-profit event at DuPont, I would challenge that discrepancy.

  7. #7
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Again, because those foot races or duathlons or whatevers are fund-raisers for charities, not for-profit events. For example, the Du the Asheville Du duathlon is a fundraiser for OpenDoors of Asheville. PAS does have the Save the Trails challenge fund-raiser.
    The foot races are billed as races. The Morris Broadband Half Marathon is a race. I don't know if it is a fund raiser or not, but do know that it is very much an official race. If all it takes is to be a race is to be a fund raiser than the Save the Trails Challenge should be able to be a race....

    Races are money making ventures, which is not endorsed by DuPont management.
    I'm not sure my definition of what makes something a race includes a money making side. I don't think the Tour Divide is a money making venture and that is a very much a race. And the Save the Trails Challenge is very much a money making venture. It is making money for a non-profit, but is still making money.
    How that sits with letting movie companies pay to use the land or tour companies related to the movies selling tours, I have no idea. If I was a promoter trying to put on a for-profit event at DuPont, I would challenge that discrepancy.
    Independent companies get special use permits which they have to pay for and qualify for. If I was a mtb race promoter trying to have a race at Dupont I would be trying to get a special use permit.

    I have a hunch that the reason why there are no mtb races at Dupont is because some mountain bikers don't like races as evidenced in the recent race thread.
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  8. #8
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    Call it profit-making rather than money-making if you want to mince words. I know from direct experience with Enduro Adventures (promoter of the 24 Hours of Pisgah race) that the potential for making a profit was not an option for the race organizer, although that was several years ago.
    You're right about the foot races/ duathalon being races with results, though; I wonder if they gave prizes of value too?

  9. #9
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    We should do an alley cat style race in DuPont.

    Not that this is the reason but honestly DuPont because of it's traffic is not really the best place for a race. I love riding there, but it is just too busy for a race and shutting the trails down for racers only is just not really feasible.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  10. #10
    thecentralscrutinizer
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    We should do an alley cat style race in DuPont.

    Not that this is the reason but honestly DuPont because of it's traffic is not really the best place for a race. I love riding there, but it is just too busy for a race and shutting the trails down for racers only is just not really feasible.
    Agreed, although trails around Raleigh do get shutdown for races from time-to-time.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mopartodd View Post
    Agreed, although trails around Raleigh do get shutdown for races from time-to-time.
    Trails around here do too. However, they don't have nearly the visitors that DuPont does and usually involve loops (such as Tsali). There are no "loops" in DuPont, just a series of trails that connect back to the main road in which you can create a loop.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  12. #12
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Call it profit-making rather than money-making if you want to mince words. I know from direct experience with Enduro Adventures (promoter of the 24 Hours of Pisgah race) that the potential for making a profit was not an option for the race organizer, although that was several years ago.
    You're right about the foot races/ duathalon being races with results, though; I wonder if they gave prizes of value too?
    Yes, the top 3 finishers overall and top 3 in all age groups get prizes at the Morris Broadband Half Marathon. Here is the poster for the race:



    It is interesting that there is no mention of charity or non-profit anywhere on the poster, or anywhere else for that matter . Since it is put on by Fletcher Parks I'll assume it is a fund raiser but there is no mention of that. And with the race named after their big corporate sponsor it sounds a lot like every other for profit running race out there.

    I'm still guessing there are more reasons why there are no bike races in Dupont than just a non-profit requirement
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  13. #13
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    It always cracks me up when things like this are debated. There is this really crazy device called a telephone, I've heard most of the kinks have been worked out of this technology and it works quite well. The numbers of the staff are clearly listed and available to the public. If you really want to know, why don't you call and report back here rather than all the speculation.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    We should do an alley cat style race in DuPont.

    Not that this is the reason but honestly DuPont because of it's traffic is not really the best place for a race. I love riding there, but it is just too busy for a race and shutting the trails down for racers only is just not really feasible.
    Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. There are no mtn bike races (yes, there are foot races) because the DuPont Advisory Committee (which I have served on for 6 years) decided the use conflict and trail impact from a mtn bike race would be too high. There are also no race events such as endurance rides for horses for the same reason. I fully supported the decision at that time and still do.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    I fully supported the decision at that time and still do.

    I have to agree.

    Would I like to be able to race there? Sure, I like the trails and know them well.
    However, I also know it just isn't reasonable to have a mountain bike race there.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  16. #16
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    I just registered www.pisgahendurancehorseracing.com

    I'll sell the URL for $10,000

    You know how to reach me.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  17. #17
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    www.dupontendurancehorseracing.com


    ha ha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    I just registered www.pisgahendurancehorseracing.com

    I'll sell the URL for $10,000

    You know how to reach me.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    I have to agree. Would I like to be able to race there? Sure, I like the trails and know them well. However, I also know it just isn't reasonable to have a mountain bike race there.
    Is that really true...? What about a race that started late evening ~6:00 PM? A race is still viable in Dupont in my opinion, if there is a will there is a way to make it work. Again, I think it begins with starting a conversation, having a solid plan that behooves both parties. "Because some people think it should or shouldn't be" is never a valid answer to me. There is always a way around problems/issues.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    I just registered www.pisgahendurancehorseracing.com

    I'll sell the URL for $10,000

    You know how to reach me.
    We were approached by a group that wanted to host an endurance ride in DuPont, the Advisory Committee recommended against it and forest management said no special use permit for such an equestrian event. While Pres. of Trail Dynamics, we cleaned up the enormous mess left behind by an endurance ride on the Biltmore Estate several times. The impact was huge.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao View Post
    Is that really true...? What about a race that started late evening ~6:00 PM? A race is still viable in Dupont in my opinion, if there is a will there is a way to make it work. Again, I think it begins with starting a conversation, having a solid plan that behooves both parties. "Because some people think it should or shouldn't be" is never a valid answer to me. There is always a way around problems/issues.
    Ok, sure you could jump hurdles left and right but I said reasonable, not impossible.
    I suppose reasonable is a matter of interpretation. I don't think a race starting at 6 pm is reasonable but you probably do.

    I think there are some things that could be done there that are "race like" where you could have around 100 riders with very little impact in the forest and hardly be noticed.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  21. #21
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    The "Tobacco - Free - For - Life" ride was as close to a race at Dupont that I can remember, it also qualified as a non-profit since proceeds went to the Pardee Hospital System.
    Great memories of those rides...
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  22. #22
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    Is the impact really any different for this event compared to a race limited to the same number of participants?

    Pisgah Area SORBA » Blog Archive » Save The Trails Challenge August 24th, 2013
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Ok, sure you could jump hurdles left and right but I said reasonable, not impossible. I suppose reasonable is a matter of interpretation. I don't think a race starting at 6 pm is reasonable but you probably do. I think there are some things that could be done there that are "race like" where you could have around 100 riders with very little impact in the forest and hardly be noticed.
    Ask anyone who has put on a race before on public lands, hurdles are the nature of the game. Work with the land manager and they will work with you. Its all about establishing a relationship. It may not sound reasonable to start a race at 6PM to you but maybe if I were a race promoter I wouldn't want "your kind" at my race then. <-- you should sense some sarcasm there.I have always thought a neat format in Dupont would be a "checkpoint" style race that started in the evening and finished the following morning. A "12 hour checkpoint" race of sorts. Everyone knows riding Dupont is better at night anyway. Woody stated the reason they advised "no" in the past was "user conflict" not impact. If you have a race at night, you have limited user conflct.
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  24. #24
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    What do you mean "your kind"?
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    I actually have been working on an idea but have no idea how to pull it off or if people would actually be interested.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    What do you mean "your kind"?
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    I laughed longer than I should.. Best movie ever!
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  26. #26
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orthoguy View Post
    Is the impact really any different for this event compared to a race limited to the same number of participants?

    Pisgah Area SORBA » Blog Archive » Save The Trails Challenge August 24th, 2013
    It wouldn't seem like the trail impact of a 'race' would be anymore. How could it? User conflict is a little trickier but the year I did the Save the Trails Challenge it was a race in all but the name. At the start there were racers, um I mean riders, who were even throwing elbows as they jockeyed into position on the first bit of single track. Just because it isn't billed as a race doesn't mean that people don't ride it fast or that user conflicts cannot arise.
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  27. #27
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    The STTC is a fund raiser for PAS. It helps fund things like tool purchases for trail tools that are used for trail maintenance in DuPont (and other places). The proceeds don't go into some race promoters bank account. Hopefully you can see a big difference here.

    Yes, any ride that has 2 or more riders can turn into a race. With Strava, you don't even need a second rider only the internet.

    My question for all is this: Why does every trail or trail system need to be a race venue? Racers account for a very small % of overall mountain bikers. Why not have places like DuPont where races are not allowed?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    My question for all is this: Why does every trail or trail system need to be a race venue? Racers account for a very small % of overall mountain bikers. Why not have places like DuPont where races are not allowed?
    Its a sport, people like to compete. There is a demand and people especially like knowing that the trails are clear for a day so they can go as fast as they can. Whether is the thrill, ego, bragging whatever... its human nature. We find this to be especially true at Paris Mountain when US SORBA puts on races there because since we clear the trails for a day (no hiking or biking during the race) people get to go as fast as they can one day out of the year. I understand the "country club" feeling of wanting somewhere where races don't happen but these are public lands. If there is a desire, need, demand to do something on those public lands, sooner or later it is probably going to happen.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao View Post
    Its a sport, people like to compete. There is a demand and people especially like knowing that the trails are clear for a day so they can go as fast as they can. Whether is the thrill, ego, bragging whatever... its human nature. We find this to be especially true at Paris Mountain when US SORBA puts on races there because since we clear the trails for a day (no hiking or biking during the race) people get to go as fast as they can one day out of the year. I understand the "country club" feeling of wanting somewhere where races don't happen but these are public lands. If there is a desire, need, demand to do something on those public lands, sooner or later it is probably going to happen.
    Country Club feel? Seriously? Yes, we are talking public lands. That is exactly why they should be open to the public to go ride bikes, take a hike etc on any given day and not closed to the public for some "private" race.

    If there was a super responsible race promoter who 1. Was already doing trail work in DuPont and had shown a good advocacy attitude 2. Held the race during very off hours (at night like you suggest) 3. Proceeds from the race went back into maintaining the trails used 4. There was a dry weather course but also (more importantly) a wet weather course all on roads , then I would support hosting a race in DuPont. Otherwise, I still think DuPont and other areas (Bent Creek comes to mind) already gets enough use and a race would just cause more conflict than the race was worth.

  30. #30
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    "Country Club" was a little funny.

    I understand your concerns. You asked "why in DuPont" so I gave my opine on that.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao View Post
    .....but these are public lands.

    There is nothing more misguided than this argument here.

    Yes, they are "public lands" which gives everyone the right to use it.
    It doesn't give everyone the right to use it however they want.

    So before you use the 'public land' argument realize that the same argument can be used by the OHV groups to gain access.

    Also, you are not aloud to race on public roads and most cities will never grant a promoter permission to hold a race on most public roads (yes, I am aware of the few exceptions).

    Also, by closing trails down, you are infringing on the rights of hikers, equestrians and other mountain bikers not in the race to use those trails that day on those very same 'public lands'.

    Not saying that races should not be held, but don't think just because they are public lands it should be allowed.

    Personally, I love DuPont and would love to race in it but just wouldn't want to see a traditional race where trails were closed to create the course.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  32. #32
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    "So before you use the 'public land' argument realize that the same argument can be used by the OHV groups to gain access."

    I am looking for some public lands where I can host a nude base jumping competition, I should be able to do that right (it is public land)

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    "So before you use the 'public land' argument realize that the same argument can be used by the OHV groups to gain access."

    I am looking for some public lands where I can host a nude base jumping competition, I should be able to do that right (it is public land)
    As long as it isn't bungee jumping.
    Too dangerous to do nude....at least for men.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  34. #34
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    Once again we grab onto what is irrelevant. The original question is why no races in DuPont?

    That answer was given but I argue that if the demand is there it will happen. I don't care either way.


    If you want a nude event Woody it probably won't happen. But if a celebrity who is deemed sexy by society asks for such an event it might just happen.


    Carefully what you post on Z interwebs. Enough BS now anyway, thanks for the fun everyone.
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  35. #35
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    A nude mountain bike race would be quite interesting, not to mention potentially painful for the racers of either gender. Lots of sun screen and chammy butter would be required.
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  36. #36
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    "If you want a nude event Woody it probably won't happen. But if a celebrity who is deemed sexy by society asks for such an event it might just happen."

    If we got some nude sexy celebrity to come for our next trail workday do you think attendance would increase?

  37. #37
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    The Tour DuPont 2014

    And here's the bunch at the start line.

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    Nice, can we get the girls to come entertain us for a trail workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeridesabike View Post
    And here's the bunch at the start line.

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  39. #39
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    I have a feeling no work will get done.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeridesabike View Post
    And here's the bunch at the start line.

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    So how do you tell which team they are on with no jerseys?
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  41. #41
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    The STTC is a fund raiser for PAS. It helps fund things like tool purchases for trail tools that are used for trail maintenance in DuPont (and other places). The proceeds don't go into some race promoters bank account. Hopefully you can see a big difference here.
    Well, you cite two reasons for not having mountain bike races in Dupont: trail impact and user conflict. I was simply pointing out that the STTC has the same impact on the trails as a race of the same size would and that user conflicts very well could arise during that event as well. You never said that there was a fund raiser/non-profit requirement as well.

    So, if trail impact and user conflict are indeed the reason why the DuPont Advisory Committee has decided not allow bike races in Dupont they probably should reconsider having the STTC in Dupont in the future.

    My question for all is this: Why does every trail or trail system need to be a race venue?
    Dupont is already a race venue . Maybe not a mountain bike race venue, but still a race venue.
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