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  1. #1
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    New question here. What would you do about your favorite trail being rerouted in Pisgah?

    So one day you find out one of your favorite trails may be rerouted due to water drainage issues. This trail is a multi-use trail which Horses, Bikes, Hikers, Deer, Bears and Squirrels use.

    The land manager says no matter what this trail must be dealt with and closed.
    The brand new trail reroute must meet multi-use traffic and be built to that standard the land manager sets. The local MTB club could get involved and help build the trail with volunteers from the area. If the local MTB club does not get involved the local Horse club could build the trail with no MTBer involvement and have no say in how the trail is built.

    Either way at some point the trail will go away to the new one.

    As a MTBer, which option would you choose. Pole above
    Or reply with an alternate solution in your own words.

    Do nothing and ride my bike elsewhere.

    Contact my local MTB club to do nothing and let the Horse club build it and hope it takes them a long time so I can enjoy the trail that is still there, and later be bummed the new trail is not what I expected it to be.

    Get involved with my local MTB club so they will be the ones doing the work and have more say in how the work is done, also volunteer when I can to help on the project when it starts. (In the process helping establish a better relationship with the land manager for future projects).

    Tell the land manager I don't care if the trail is causing drinking water issues and to leave it alone.

    Start making illegal trails that no one knows about, causing the land manger more frustration and risk the closing of all access on all trails for MTBs to make it easier for them to catch offenders.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-02-2012 at 10:30 PM. Reason: Added reply in your own words.

  2. #2
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    I'll be first...

  3. #3
    Fat-tired Roadie
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    To be honest, the trail I like that's been rerouted was rerouted without my involvement. The local MTB club had some input in the reroute and the style of construction along the new route, and I think that everybody involved did the right thing - there were multiple bridges that were having big problems on the route and nobody wanted to spend the money to fix or maintain them.

    However, I do put in some trail days from time to time.
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  4. #4
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    Get involved.

    The club where I live can't make a decent trail to save their life and suck the life out of the older awesome trails with terrible reroutes. After witnessing trails I love get neutered, I got more involved.
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  5. #5
    drunken pirate
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    Is this a thinly veiled thread about Trace Ridge?

    It is very tough to answer your question without knowing the specific trail and specific reasons for the work.

    If it was Black Mtn. between Turkey Pen Gap and Pressley Cove I would be out there every opportunity possible to influence the finished product as much as possible.

    If it was lower Trace Ridge I would have to acknowledge the role the Brushy Ridge logging project plays in that reroute and the impact to the riding in that area the logging is going to have. As a result, I would simply let the equestrians do the work if they are willing to and would put my resources to use elsewhere in the forest. I just got in from a road bike ride out North Mills River Rd. to the campground and as I sat on the bridge over the river eating a granola bar I couldn't help but think about how much that area is going to change. Once the logging starts up even a road bike ride during the week out there is going to be way different....
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    Is this a thinly veiled thread about Trace Ridge?

    It is very tough to answer your question without knowing the specific trail and specific reasons for the work.

    If it was Black Mtn. between Turkey Pen Gap and Pressley Cove I would be out there every opportunity possible to influence the finished product as much as possible.

    If it was lower Trace Ridge I would have to acknowledge the role the Brushy Ridge logging project plays in that reroute and the impact to the riding in that area the logging is going to have. As a result, I would simply let the equestrians do the work if they are willing to and would put my resources to use elsewhere in the forest. I just got in from a road bike ride out North Mills River Rd. to the campground and as I sat on the bridge over the river eating a granola bar I couldn't help but think about how much that area is going to change. Once the logging starts up even a road bike ride during the week out there is going to be way different....
    I am not saying any trail names. Nor is this question about specific trails. This is about supporting a trail issue or not with what I described above. Regardless of the specific trail we can't be selective of what trails a local MTB club can or can't support if we want to have a seat at the table for trails we want to support. Either the MTB club will be involved developing a relationship with the land manger or not, it is that simple. If there is no involvement then MTBers may not have a say as a group on the specific trails you speak of above. Selecting specific trails you want to support is very narrow minded.

    In regards to your response on Trace and the logging project. The trees will grow back. The question is, will the trails be there that we want to enjoy for our future generations, not just yourself in this time period, again very self involved to think this way.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  7. #7
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    I guess I would have to say that I would prefer to have my influence on most trails changes, period.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  8. #8
    Big Mac
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    Hayduke lives!







    Seriously though, if the reroute could be hand cut and I didn't HAVE to join PAS, Id be on it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Seriously though, if the reroute could be hand cut and I didn't HAVE to join PAS, Id be on it.
    I see no reason why any reroute could not be hand cut if there were volunteer numbers to support a project of such magnitude. The only issue I can see is with some trails being pack and Stock on a steep slope would require a whole lot of digging, root pulling and rock moving.

    Also to do trail work you don't have to join PAS, you only need to be on a list to do trail work and be willing to work within the guidelines set by the NFS as a volunteer of the NFS.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  10. #10
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    Think I would get my hands dirty.

    Then come home pour my self a drink and hop on the MTBR NC/SC Forum and read the BS about rerouting trails, closing trails, and he said she said soap opera.

    Rather show up and dig with the Forest Service and Trail Builder than wait for the local mtb club to rally the troops on Mtbr.

  11. #11
    Rogue Exterminator
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    I would definitely help out if it was on a weekend.
    I would be more then willing to put a day in especially if it involved a couple hours of riding afterwards.

  12. #12
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logover View Post
    I am not saying any trail names. Nor is this question about specific trails. This is about supporting a trail issue or not with what I described above. Regardless of the specific trail we can't be selective of what trails a local MTB club can or can't support if we want to have a seat at the table for trails we want to support. Either the MTB club will be involved developing a relationship with the land manger or not, it is that simple. If there is no involvement then MTBers may not have a say as a group on the specific trails you speak of above. Selecting specific trails you want to support is very narrow minded.

    In regards to your response on Trace and the logging project. The trees will grow back. The question is, will the trails be there that we want to enjoy for our future generations, not just yourself in this time period, again very self involved to think this way.
    Um, I kinda hate to point this out but it is about a very specific trail. you very clearly ask:

    What would you do about your favorite trail being rerouted in Pisgah?
    Your favorite trail means one specific trail. The trail will vary with the respondents personal preference but your question is very much about specific trails. Maybe instead of calling me narrow minded you might want to reread what you wrote

    As far as your ultimate question goes, yes, the trees will grow back. As far as the trails go, well I don't know. I'm sure whatever is done with lower Trace Ridge will be fine but what about all the other trails in that area that are going to be directly impacted by the logging? Are they still going to be there as trails for future generations to enjoy or are they going to be roads?
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  13. #13
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    Chris- personally, I think this poll is not exactly neutral. Because of that, I made the JOKE vote for building illegal trail.

    You know that's not what I'd do, but I if the poll's not neutral, why should I make a real vote?

  14. #14
    drunken pirate
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    Here is a poll I'd really like to make:

    With regard to Pisgah Ranger District specifically, do you think local MTB advocacy groups should concentrate on and advocate for -

    a) Major reroutes to bring trails up to current USFS standards
    b) Major tread and corridor work to bring trails up to current USFS standards
    c) Regular trail maintenance to stabilize trails with an eye towards preventing the necessity of major reroutes.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post

    Seriously though, if the reroute could be hand cut and I didn't HAVE to join PAS, Id be on it.
    I'd be there too.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Chris- personally, I think this poll is not exactly neutral. Because of that, I made the JOKE vote for building illegal trail.

    You know that's not what I'd do, but I if the poll's not neutral, why should I make a real vote?
    Push poll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I said I would shut up, but sometimes I can't help myself.

    Logical fallacy of "False Dilemma" also. BTW.

    "False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice (such as, in some contexts, the assertion that "if you are not with us, you are against us"). But the fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception."

    Hell, I'm going to edit this one more time and say that this poll is the most ham-fisted crap I've seen in a long time, and I say that in the midst of a Presidential election. To call it "manipulative" would be insulting to the viewers - in that it would imply that they might actually be influenced by such crass and shallow BS. Seriously, this is what the kids these days call "Epic Fail". You should be embarrassed to have posted this.

    If you want to poll people about what they think, you probably ought to start by not making assumptions about what they think. Not attempting to put words in their mouths. Not trying to extrapolate what YOU think the outcomes of their actions would be. Not attaching snide commentary about what you view as the morality of their decisions.

    This is one of the biggest steaming piles I've ever seen on MTBR, and that's coming from someone who has left quite a few and stepped in many, many more.
    Last edited by Broussard; 10-02-2012 at 06:15 PM.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    Here is a poll I'd really like to make:

    With regard to Pisgah Ranger District specifically, do you think local MTB advocacy groups should concentrate on and advocate for -

    a) Major reroutes to bring trails up to current USFS standards
    b) Major tread and corridor work to bring trails up to current USFS standards
    c) Regular trail maintenance to stabilize trails with an eye towards preventing the necessity of major reroutes.


    How to post a poll?
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  18. #18
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    As a Trail Builder and a Land Manager with 20 miles of trail to oversee, I will give my 2 cents.
    Major reroutes are going to be inevitable, there is going to have to be major tread and corridor work done at some point, and it is known that regular maintenance will always help prevent the preceding two, so your poll is somewhat skewed in my opinion.
    Your major obstacle in all this is the USFS,in my experience they can be difficult to work with, the rec guys don't get along with the foresters and vice versa.I am on a DoD installation and have the say in all aspects of the trails I manage, but I do not make all the decisions based on what I think is correct, I seek constant input from the users and make informed decisions based on that. I organize my riders and maintainers and get the work done. My observations of the USFS and SORBA and IMBA is that they say that they are your advocate but in the end they think that they know what you want and are the experts at getting it done, their way alone.
    I say stand up and voice your concerns, band together, and hope that you can influence the outcome to a point where everyones needs are met. Go out to the problem area with some of your fellow riders evaluate the problem, seek a solution, develop a plan, and present it to the land manger and advocate groups and hope for the best.
    Good Luck
    Trail Builder, Trail Rider,and Trail Protector

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    Push poll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I said I would shut up, but sometimes I can't help myself.

    Logical fallacy of "False Dilemma" also. BTW.

    "False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice (such as, in some contexts, the assertion that "if you are not with us, you are against us"). But the fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception."

    Hell, I'm going to edit this one more time and say that this poll is the most ham-fisted crap I've seen in a long time, and I say that in the midst of a Presidential election. To call it "manipulative" would be insulting to the viewers - in that it would imply that they might actually be influenced by such crass and shallow BS. Seriously, this is what the kids these days call "Epic Fail". You should be embarrassed to have posted this.

    If you want to poll people about what they think, you probably ought to start by not making assumptions about what they think. Not attempting to put words in their mouths. Not trying to extrapolate what YOU think the outcomes of their actions would be. Not attaching snide commentary about what you view as the morality of their decisions.

    This is one of the biggest steaming piles I've ever seen on MTBR, and that's coming from someone who has left quite a few and stepped in many, many more.
    You are correct to assume this sorta, but was not my intention. How much of what is on MTBR in the NC/SC has ever come to any organization or any positive outcome in the past 5 years that has done any good for PAS or any MTB organization. You have a fresh new board of directors with PAS that want to do good for our joy of riding our bikes in the woods. It really does not matter what organization that will steps up to the task. There is always going to be someone that is not happy with what is done or the process to achieve it.

    Please tell me something positive that has done something for a trail, or a discussion that has gotten somewhere to turn dirt from MTBR conversation. So far all I see is name calling, which I said to myself I would never do on here. With that driftwood, I apologize for my narrow minded comment.

    I can't tell you how many times I have read the words, stop typing on here and do some trail work, or something to that effect. Those that are here know this, there is no need to keep repeating it. If you want to volunteer great! Thank you. If you want to volunteer with PAS Thank you again.

    If there is no positive outcome for the trail, then everything we post on here is just a fantasy of what we want and desire. Can something that is posted on here cause damage? I think it can. Will any pole on here ever get any headway into real action? Defiantly not and should not. What I have found to provide real action is doing something that you believe in regardless of what it is.

    I see lots of suggestions on but no real realistic solutions to the real problem, which in my mind is how do we get the fun trails we are all looking for and keep Pisgah unique. I personally can't ride my bike in the trail now without really checking it out and trying to figure out the cause and affect of issues on the trail and what needs to be done to correct them so I can continue to enjoy the trails we all love to ride.

    I am sure someone will have something to say negative about what I just wrote that I have never thought off.
    I am however glad to see no one picked do nothing so far.
    My most enjoyed cause an affect I have ever seen is when I was digging in the dirt and later rolling on two wheels happy with the outcome. Or watching someones joy clearing a section of trail they have never done before. Riding a crazy amount of miles and never being on the same trail twice.

    When I see trails in Pisgah that are totally non fixable, I worry I am going to loose that loop of trail or that inch of dirt that brings me so much joy. I then think to myself, how can I do something positive to keep that trail there or make a new one. Then you start to make a new trail and realize just how difficult it is to do it. Planning, digging, restrictions, funding, and so on. There is no end to a volunteers time, no clock to punch, just the desire to make something better for others to enjoy.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:22 PM.

  20. #20
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    I have to disagree with donwatts assessment of IMBA and SORBA not to say he's wrong but because of my own time and experience with SORBA executive board members specifically Tom Sauret. I don't think they're trying to tell us how to build trails at all. They want local trail builders to discover and implement their own SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) for their specific trail systems. What works in one part of the country doesn't necessarily work here and vice versa. I'd say the same is true for IMBA as well.

    People seem to make a lot of assumptions about an organization without investing the time to communicate with/form a relationship with core members of said group.

    My observation of many of you is that you are intelligent and rational....to a fault. It is far too easy to rationalize your opinion to "support" that position and opinion. In the end its really about good communication and good relationships. Not who is "right" and who is "wrong", which is totally subjective anyway.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Hayduke lives!







    Seriously though, if the reroute could be hand cut and I didn't HAVE to join PAS, Id be on it.
    I think the horse club is looking for volunteers, I hear they are building new trail somewhere in N Mills River, your wish might come true!

  22. #22
    Big Mac
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjanes View Post
    I think the horse club is looking for volunteers, I hear they are building new trail somewhere in N Mills River, your wish might come true!
    Do they use machines?

  23. #23
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    A poll SHOULD matter, in that one would think that an advocacy group would be interested in advocating for the majority view of its target demographic. A properly written poll is a pretty good way to discover what that majority view is. Why don't you try again with an honest, unslanted approach and see what you learn? I would be glad to help you write it if you were willing and don't hate me too badly.

    Many people here are trying to make the simple point that they would like to see more emphasis on basic maintenance and less emphasis on major rework and reroute. This is the opinion of a large segment of the user group, and I don't consider presenting the views of a whole bunch of mountain bikers to a mountain biking advocacy group to be "complaining". I don't think trying to influence the priorities of the local advocacy group is useless. Or I didn't USED to, anyway.

    Mountain bikers have opinions, and they are fairly likely to present those opinions to their advocacy group. Hell, who ELSE would they present them to? You are not making friends or allies by being so bluntly dismissive of people who don't share your particular priorities, nor by equating all dissent with whining and complaining.

    Anyway.

    As far as positive outcomes for the trail -
    I've learned - via personal conversations prompted by these threads - that getting approval to do work in The District independent of major advocacy groups is not nearly as difficult as has been assumed. That's a valuable lesson, and one that I plan to do something positive for the trails with... in my own small way. I think others here are learning that lesson as well, and are ready to go out and work if they are presented with options more in line with their desires. So yes. In the end, I think something positive will indeed come out of these discussions.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Do they use machines?
    In Regards to Trace. After walking the trail and doing some corridor clearing last Sunday, There are lots of areas of the trail that could be done by hand and I hope this can happen. However there are some really steep sloped areas that my mind and body tell me this is not possible. There is also some really huge rocks. The question is can the machine get in there and do what needs to be done, and then have enough help to make the handwork portion of the trail?
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:22 PM.

  25. #25
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    Speaking of a better poll.

    http://www.pisgahareasorba.org/2012/...-input-survey/

    It may not support your theories, but covers a lot of what people are claiming as the majority here, when it was not necessarily the case when the poll was taken. Plenty of room for it to be distilled and refined. I like that you could vote for more than one answer. A worthy read anyway.


    But you know what they say about stats.....
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

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