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  1. #1
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    New question here. What would you do about your favorite trail being rerouted in Pisgah?

    So one day you find out one of your favorite trails may be rerouted due to water drainage issues. This trail is a multi-use trail which Horses, Bikes, Hikers, Deer, Bears and Squirrels use.

    The land manager says no matter what this trail must be dealt with and closed.
    The brand new trail reroute must meet multi-use traffic and be built to that standard the land manager sets. The local MTB club could get involved and help build the trail with volunteers from the area. If the local MTB club does not get involved the local Horse club could build the trail with no MTBer involvement and have no say in how the trail is built.

    Either way at some point the trail will go away to the new one.

    As a MTBer, which option would you choose. Pole above
    Or reply with an alternate solution in your own words.

    Do nothing and ride my bike elsewhere.

    Contact my local MTB club to do nothing and let the Horse club build it and hope it takes them a long time so I can enjoy the trail that is still there, and later be bummed the new trail is not what I expected it to be.

    Get involved with my local MTB club so they will be the ones doing the work and have more say in how the work is done, also volunteer when I can to help on the project when it starts. (In the process helping establish a better relationship with the land manager for future projects).

    Tell the land manager I don't care if the trail is causing drinking water issues and to leave it alone.

    Start making illegal trails that no one knows about, causing the land manger more frustration and risk the closing of all access on all trails for MTBs to make it easier for them to catch offenders.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-02-2012 at 10:30 PM. Reason: Added reply in your own words.

  2. #2
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    I'll be first...

  3. #3
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    To be honest, the trail I like that's been rerouted was rerouted without my involvement. The local MTB club had some input in the reroute and the style of construction along the new route, and I think that everybody involved did the right thing - there were multiple bridges that were having big problems on the route and nobody wanted to spend the money to fix or maintain them.

    However, I do put in some trail days from time to time.
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  4. #4
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    Get involved.

    The club where I live can't make a decent trail to save their life and suck the life out of the older awesome trails with terrible reroutes. After witnessing trails I love get neutered, I got more involved.
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  5. #5
    drunken pirate
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    Is this a thinly veiled thread about Trace Ridge?

    It is very tough to answer your question without knowing the specific trail and specific reasons for the work.

    If it was Black Mtn. between Turkey Pen Gap and Pressley Cove I would be out there every opportunity possible to influence the finished product as much as possible.

    If it was lower Trace Ridge I would have to acknowledge the role the Brushy Ridge logging project plays in that reroute and the impact to the riding in that area the logging is going to have. As a result, I would simply let the equestrians do the work if they are willing to and would put my resources to use elsewhere in the forest. I just got in from a road bike ride out North Mills River Rd. to the campground and as I sat on the bridge over the river eating a granola bar I couldn't help but think about how much that area is going to change. Once the logging starts up even a road bike ride during the week out there is going to be way different....
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    Is this a thinly veiled thread about Trace Ridge?

    It is very tough to answer your question without knowing the specific trail and specific reasons for the work.

    If it was Black Mtn. between Turkey Pen Gap and Pressley Cove I would be out there every opportunity possible to influence the finished product as much as possible.

    If it was lower Trace Ridge I would have to acknowledge the role the Brushy Ridge logging project plays in that reroute and the impact to the riding in that area the logging is going to have. As a result, I would simply let the equestrians do the work if they are willing to and would put my resources to use elsewhere in the forest. I just got in from a road bike ride out North Mills River Rd. to the campground and as I sat on the bridge over the river eating a granola bar I couldn't help but think about how much that area is going to change. Once the logging starts up even a road bike ride during the week out there is going to be way different....
    I am not saying any trail names. Nor is this question about specific trails. This is about supporting a trail issue or not with what I described above. Regardless of the specific trail we can't be selective of what trails a local MTB club can or can't support if we want to have a seat at the table for trails we want to support. Either the MTB club will be involved developing a relationship with the land manger or not, it is that simple. If there is no involvement then MTBers may not have a say as a group on the specific trails you speak of above. Selecting specific trails you want to support is very narrow minded.

    In regards to your response on Trace and the logging project. The trees will grow back. The question is, will the trails be there that we want to enjoy for our future generations, not just yourself in this time period, again very self involved to think this way.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  7. #7
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    I guess I would have to say that I would prefer to have my influence on most trails changes, period.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  8. #8
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    Hayduke lives!







    Seriously though, if the reroute could be hand cut and I didn't HAVE to join PAS, Id be on it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Seriously though, if the reroute could be hand cut and I didn't HAVE to join PAS, Id be on it.
    I see no reason why any reroute could not be hand cut if there were volunteer numbers to support a project of such magnitude. The only issue I can see is with some trails being pack and Stock on a steep slope would require a whole lot of digging, root pulling and rock moving.

    Also to do trail work you don't have to join PAS, you only need to be on a list to do trail work and be willing to work within the guidelines set by the NFS as a volunteer of the NFS.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  10. #10
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    Think I would get my hands dirty.

    Then come home pour my self a drink and hop on the MTBR NC/SC Forum and read the BS about rerouting trails, closing trails, and he said she said soap opera.

    Rather show up and dig with the Forest Service and Trail Builder than wait for the local mtb club to rally the troops on Mtbr.

  11. #11
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    I would definitely help out if it was on a weekend.
    I would be more then willing to put a day in especially if it involved a couple hours of riding afterwards.

  12. #12
    drunken pirate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logover View Post
    I am not saying any trail names. Nor is this question about specific trails. This is about supporting a trail issue or not with what I described above. Regardless of the specific trail we can't be selective of what trails a local MTB club can or can't support if we want to have a seat at the table for trails we want to support. Either the MTB club will be involved developing a relationship with the land manger or not, it is that simple. If there is no involvement then MTBers may not have a say as a group on the specific trails you speak of above. Selecting specific trails you want to support is very narrow minded.

    In regards to your response on Trace and the logging project. The trees will grow back. The question is, will the trails be there that we want to enjoy for our future generations, not just yourself in this time period, again very self involved to think this way.
    Um, I kinda hate to point this out but it is about a very specific trail. you very clearly ask:

    What would you do about your favorite trail being rerouted in Pisgah?
    Your favorite trail means one specific trail. The trail will vary with the respondents personal preference but your question is very much about specific trails. Maybe instead of calling me narrow minded you might want to reread what you wrote

    As far as your ultimate question goes, yes, the trees will grow back. As far as the trails go, well I don't know. I'm sure whatever is done with lower Trace Ridge will be fine but what about all the other trails in that area that are going to be directly impacted by the logging? Are they still going to be there as trails for future generations to enjoy or are they going to be roads?
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  13. #13
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    Chris- personally, I think this poll is not exactly neutral. Because of that, I made the JOKE vote for building illegal trail.

    You know that's not what I'd do, but I if the poll's not neutral, why should I make a real vote?

  14. #14
    drunken pirate
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    Here is a poll I'd really like to make:

    With regard to Pisgah Ranger District specifically, do you think local MTB advocacy groups should concentrate on and advocate for -

    a) Major reroutes to bring trails up to current USFS standards
    b) Major tread and corridor work to bring trails up to current USFS standards
    c) Regular trail maintenance to stabilize trails with an eye towards preventing the necessity of major reroutes.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post

    Seriously though, if the reroute could be hand cut and I didn't HAVE to join PAS, Id be on it.
    I'd be there too.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Chris- personally, I think this poll is not exactly neutral. Because of that, I made the JOKE vote for building illegal trail.

    You know that's not what I'd do, but I if the poll's not neutral, why should I make a real vote?
    Push poll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I said I would shut up, but sometimes I can't help myself.

    Logical fallacy of "False Dilemma" also. BTW.

    "False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice (such as, in some contexts, the assertion that "if you are not with us, you are against us"). But the fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception."

    Hell, I'm going to edit this one more time and say that this poll is the most ham-fisted crap I've seen in a long time, and I say that in the midst of a Presidential election. To call it "manipulative" would be insulting to the viewers - in that it would imply that they might actually be influenced by such crass and shallow BS. Seriously, this is what the kids these days call "Epic Fail". You should be embarrassed to have posted this.

    If you want to poll people about what they think, you probably ought to start by not making assumptions about what they think. Not attempting to put words in their mouths. Not trying to extrapolate what YOU think the outcomes of their actions would be. Not attaching snide commentary about what you view as the morality of their decisions.

    This is one of the biggest steaming piles I've ever seen on MTBR, and that's coming from someone who has left quite a few and stepped in many, many more.
    Last edited by Broussard; 10-02-2012 at 06:15 PM.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    Here is a poll I'd really like to make:

    With regard to Pisgah Ranger District specifically, do you think local MTB advocacy groups should concentrate on and advocate for -

    a) Major reroutes to bring trails up to current USFS standards
    b) Major tread and corridor work to bring trails up to current USFS standards
    c) Regular trail maintenance to stabilize trails with an eye towards preventing the necessity of major reroutes.


    How to post a poll?
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  18. #18
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    As a Trail Builder and a Land Manager with 20 miles of trail to oversee, I will give my 2 cents.
    Major reroutes are going to be inevitable, there is going to have to be major tread and corridor work done at some point, and it is known that regular maintenance will always help prevent the preceding two, so your poll is somewhat skewed in my opinion.
    Your major obstacle in all this is the USFS,in my experience they can be difficult to work with, the rec guys don't get along with the foresters and vice versa.I am on a DoD installation and have the say in all aspects of the trails I manage, but I do not make all the decisions based on what I think is correct, I seek constant input from the users and make informed decisions based on that. I organize my riders and maintainers and get the work done. My observations of the USFS and SORBA and IMBA is that they say that they are your advocate but in the end they think that they know what you want and are the experts at getting it done, their way alone.
    I say stand up and voice your concerns, band together, and hope that you can influence the outcome to a point where everyones needs are met. Go out to the problem area with some of your fellow riders evaluate the problem, seek a solution, develop a plan, and present it to the land manger and advocate groups and hope for the best.
    Good Luck
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    Push poll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I said I would shut up, but sometimes I can't help myself.

    Logical fallacy of "False Dilemma" also. BTW.

    "False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice (such as, in some contexts, the assertion that "if you are not with us, you are against us"). But the fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception."

    Hell, I'm going to edit this one more time and say that this poll is the most ham-fisted crap I've seen in a long time, and I say that in the midst of a Presidential election. To call it "manipulative" would be insulting to the viewers - in that it would imply that they might actually be influenced by such crass and shallow BS. Seriously, this is what the kids these days call "Epic Fail". You should be embarrassed to have posted this.

    If you want to poll people about what they think, you probably ought to start by not making assumptions about what they think. Not attempting to put words in their mouths. Not trying to extrapolate what YOU think the outcomes of their actions would be. Not attaching snide commentary about what you view as the morality of their decisions.

    This is one of the biggest steaming piles I've ever seen on MTBR, and that's coming from someone who has left quite a few and stepped in many, many more.
    You are correct to assume this sorta, but was not my intention. How much of what is on MTBR in the NC/SC has ever come to any organization or any positive outcome in the past 5 years that has done any good for PAS or any MTB organization. You have a fresh new board of directors with PAS that want to do good for our joy of riding our bikes in the woods. It really does not matter what organization that will steps up to the task. There is always going to be someone that is not happy with what is done or the process to achieve it.

    Please tell me something positive that has done something for a trail, or a discussion that has gotten somewhere to turn dirt from MTBR conversation. So far all I see is name calling, which I said to myself I would never do on here. With that driftwood, I apologize for my narrow minded comment.

    I can't tell you how many times I have read the words, stop typing on here and do some trail work, or something to that effect. Those that are here know this, there is no need to keep repeating it. If you want to volunteer great! Thank you. If you want to volunteer with PAS Thank you again.

    If there is no positive outcome for the trail, then everything we post on here is just a fantasy of what we want and desire. Can something that is posted on here cause damage? I think it can. Will any pole on here ever get any headway into real action? Defiantly not and should not. What I have found to provide real action is doing something that you believe in regardless of what it is.

    I see lots of suggestions on but no real realistic solutions to the real problem, which in my mind is how do we get the fun trails we are all looking for and keep Pisgah unique. I personally can't ride my bike in the trail now without really checking it out and trying to figure out the cause and affect of issues on the trail and what needs to be done to correct them so I can continue to enjoy the trails we all love to ride.

    I am sure someone will have something to say negative about what I just wrote that I have never thought off.
    I am however glad to see no one picked do nothing so far.
    My most enjoyed cause an affect I have ever seen is when I was digging in the dirt and later rolling on two wheels happy with the outcome. Or watching someones joy clearing a section of trail they have never done before. Riding a crazy amount of miles and never being on the same trail twice.

    When I see trails in Pisgah that are totally non fixable, I worry I am going to loose that loop of trail or that inch of dirt that brings me so much joy. I then think to myself, how can I do something positive to keep that trail there or make a new one. Then you start to make a new trail and realize just how difficult it is to do it. Planning, digging, restrictions, funding, and so on. There is no end to a volunteers time, no clock to punch, just the desire to make something better for others to enjoy.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:22 PM.

  20. #20
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    I have to disagree with donwatts assessment of IMBA and SORBA not to say he's wrong but because of my own time and experience with SORBA executive board members specifically Tom Sauret. I don't think they're trying to tell us how to build trails at all. They want local trail builders to discover and implement their own SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) for their specific trail systems. What works in one part of the country doesn't necessarily work here and vice versa. I'd say the same is true for IMBA as well.

    People seem to make a lot of assumptions about an organization without investing the time to communicate with/form a relationship with core members of said group.

    My observation of many of you is that you are intelligent and rational....to a fault. It is far too easy to rationalize your opinion to "support" that position and opinion. In the end its really about good communication and good relationships. Not who is "right" and who is "wrong", which is totally subjective anyway.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Hayduke lives!







    Seriously though, if the reroute could be hand cut and I didn't HAVE to join PAS, Id be on it.
    I think the horse club is looking for volunteers, I hear they are building new trail somewhere in N Mills River, your wish might come true!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjanes View Post
    I think the horse club is looking for volunteers, I hear they are building new trail somewhere in N Mills River, your wish might come true!
    Do they use machines?

  23. #23
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    A poll SHOULD matter, in that one would think that an advocacy group would be interested in advocating for the majority view of its target demographic. A properly written poll is a pretty good way to discover what that majority view is. Why don't you try again with an honest, unslanted approach and see what you learn? I would be glad to help you write it if you were willing and don't hate me too badly.

    Many people here are trying to make the simple point that they would like to see more emphasis on basic maintenance and less emphasis on major rework and reroute. This is the opinion of a large segment of the user group, and I don't consider presenting the views of a whole bunch of mountain bikers to a mountain biking advocacy group to be "complaining". I don't think trying to influence the priorities of the local advocacy group is useless. Or I didn't USED to, anyway.

    Mountain bikers have opinions, and they are fairly likely to present those opinions to their advocacy group. Hell, who ELSE would they present them to? You are not making friends or allies by being so bluntly dismissive of people who don't share your particular priorities, nor by equating all dissent with whining and complaining.

    Anyway.

    As far as positive outcomes for the trail -
    I've learned - via personal conversations prompted by these threads - that getting approval to do work in The District independent of major advocacy groups is not nearly as difficult as has been assumed. That's a valuable lesson, and one that I plan to do something positive for the trails with... in my own small way. I think others here are learning that lesson as well, and are ready to go out and work if they are presented with options more in line with their desires. So yes. In the end, I think something positive will indeed come out of these discussions.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Do they use machines?
    In Regards to Trace. After walking the trail and doing some corridor clearing last Sunday, There are lots of areas of the trail that could be done by hand and I hope this can happen. However there are some really steep sloped areas that my mind and body tell me this is not possible. There is also some really huge rocks. The question is can the machine get in there and do what needs to be done, and then have enough help to make the handwork portion of the trail?
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:22 PM.

  25. #25
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    Speaking of a better poll.

    http://www.pisgahareasorba.org/2012/...-input-survey/

    It may not support your theories, but covers a lot of what people are claiming as the majority here, when it was not necessarily the case when the poll was taken. Plenty of room for it to be distilled and refined. I like that you could vote for more than one answer. A worthy read anyway.


    But you know what they say about stats.....
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    As far as positive outcomes for the trail -
    I've learned - via personal conversations prompted by these threads - that getting approval to do work in The District independent of major advocacy groups is not nearly as difficult as has been assumed. That's a valuable lesson, and one that I plan to do something positive for the trails with... in my own small way. I think others here are learning that lesson as well, and are ready to go out and work if they are presented with options more in line with their desires. So yes. In the end, I think something positive will indeed come out of these discussions.
    YES YES YES!!!

    Now BrouSSard, you can say that Jonathon wins.
    BS'ing less, riding more.

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  27. #27
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    I think all mountain biker's that volunteer should be given wicking T'shirts that look like an a forum and say "Digging not B$tching"
    BS'ing less, riding more.

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    Speaking of a better poll.

    Pisgah Area SORBA » Blog Archive » Results of the Pisgah Area Trail Evaluation User Input Survey are up.

    It may not support your theories, but covers a lot of what people are claiming as the majority here, when it was not necessarily the case when the poll was taken. Plenty of room for it to be distilled and refined. I like that you could vote for more than one answer. A worthy read anyway.


    But you know what they say about stats.....
    That is a good read - thank you. I remember taking the poll but somehow missed reading the collected results. Given that a significant majority (over 60%) want tough technical features, and a good proportion (over 40%) want machine work either eliminated or reduced as much as possible, I'd say it supports my theories quite well. It also further confirms what I have begun to suspect is the proper course of action. Thanks for re-posting.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao View Post
    I think all mountain biker's that volunteer should be given wicking T'shirts that look like an a forum and say "Digging not B$tching"
    That'd be awesome. You could LITERALLY wear your sanctimony on your sleeve!
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    As far as positive outcomes for the trail -
    I've learned - via personal conversations prompted by these threads - that getting approval to do work in The District independent of major advocacy groups is not nearly as difficult as has been assumed. That's a valuable lesson, and one that I plan to do something positive for the trails with... in my own small way. I think others here are learning that lesson as well, and are ready to go out and work if they are presented with options more in line with their desires. So yes. In the end, I think something positive will indeed come out of these discussions.
    Broussard, you're absolutely right. And I'm glad to hear that you're going to do something "in your own small way." That's fantastic, because obviously the larger organization of PAS isn't able to meet every need -- these parallel threads are proof positive of that.

    A good example is the multitude of hiker groups that are out there, each with their own responsibilities in the Forest - my only request as a fellow user is that you take that responsibility seriously, which I believe you will.

    In the meantime, PAS as a partner with the Forest Service will continue to work with them to identify the priorities on which they'd like for us to concentrate. And, yes, that includes undertaking reroute projects, even in the face of an overwhelming backlog of simple maintenance, even in an area that will be logged.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard View Post
    A poll SHOULD matter, in that one would think that an advocacy group would be interested in advocating for the majority view of its target demographic. A properly written poll is a pretty good way to discover what that majority view is. Why don't you try again with an honest, unslanted approach and see what you learn? I would be glad to help you write it if you were willing and don't hate me too badly.

    Many people here are trying to make the simple point that they would like to see more emphasis on basic maintenance and less emphasis on major rework and reroute. This is the opinion of a large segment of the user group, and I don't consider presenting the views of a whole bunch of mountain bikers to a mountain biking advocacy group to be "complaining". I don't think trying to influence the priorities of the local advocacy group is useless. Or I didn't USED to, anyway.

    Mountain bikers have opinions, and they are fairly likely to present those opinions to their advocacy group. Hell, who ELSE would they present them to? You are not making friends or allies by being so bluntly dismissive of people who don't share your particular priorities, nor by equating all dissent with whining and complaining.

    Anyway.

    As far as positive outcomes for the trail -
    I've learned - via personal conversations prompted by these threads - that getting approval to do work in The District independent of major advocacy groups is not nearly as difficult as has been assumed. That's a valuable lesson, and one that I plan to do something positive for the trails with... in my own small way. I think others here are learning that lesson as well, and are ready to go out and work if they are presented with options more in line with their desires. So yes. In the end, I think something positive will indeed come out of these discussions.
    1st I want to say, I never dismiss anyone's opinions. I probably consider them to much which is why I do read on here. It is hard however to decide what is good input and bad input considering a lot of the post on here don't know the big picture of what is really going on.

    The problem with a pole on MTBR is it does not reach the entire audience of MTBers and requires that audience to have a MTBR account. Poles can be skewed by people voting more than once, At least MTBR does not allow multiple votes. But of course if you have multiple MTBR screen names you can vote more than once, which is discouraged and not allowed on MTBR. So would the results of a pole be accurate? Even the poles on survey monkey can easily allow you to vote multiple times, and the time it takes to remove the multiple votes, Lets just say I spent a lot of time on the last pole PAS put regarding the trails survey.

    So let me see if I can try and tackle the real issue.

    I do feel the decision PAS makes for the future needs to be ones that still builds on the relationship with the NFS. I also think that if MTBers can be involved with any new trail, the trail will turn out better than if we were not involved. I have had personal conversations with the new Ranger and from the impression I have gotten he seems to be a stand up tell it like it is kind of guy. I like this quality in a person and I am willing to work with it until I am proven other wise to the contrary.

    It is a tough decision on deciding to put resources into a new trail versus needed trail work maintenance.

    As we all know Trace is not the only trail that is going to need to be rerouted due to water resource issues in the future. If we walk away from opportunities like Trace we may not be invited to work on future trail reroutes that MTBers could have an impact on. I think it would be great if PAS could do one trail project each year of making new trail. Would it take resources away from regular trail work, I think it could. But there could also be great positive outcomes from it.

    On the other hand just about all our trails need help in some way or another. As I road Squirrel and Bradley Creek two weeks ago I found 8 different problem areas from Trees being down , tread work needing to be fixed and mud holes that need to be dealt with. There are issues with lots of trails and not enough man/woman power to get it all fixed immediately. I do think PAS Trail Crews are headed in the right direction and still need to work out more details on how to handle getting these items fixed in an organized manner. This process has started and will be developed more in the future.

    I did a resent survey to the 145 MTBers that signed up for trail work to find out when everyone would be available to do trail work and how often. This also took a lot of time to organize and get the results. What I did find is less than 25 that are signed up wanted to work further south of Mills river and only 11 were willing to work in remote trail locations like squirrel and upper black. And that didn't account for specific days they were available to do trail work.

    Is either path above wrong? I think it would be great if both could be done and I hope this is possible.
    How do you get a fare reasonable vote on what process PAS should do in the future and make everyone happy?

    Then you have the whole issue on how trail work should be done. Removing rocks from trail, not removing rocks from trail, building jumps or trail features, etc etc. How do you deal with that process and make everyone happy. I have read the NFS trail book two times now and will probably read it again. Link below
    http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpub...2806dpi300.pdf
    Then I look at these photos on the NFS web site for trail Class II (link below) and think to my self, look at that horse on a trail class II with spectacular rock water bars and steps Page 5 (I want that)?
    http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/prog...10_16_2008.pdf
    Do we have rock like that on the trail? Maybe a little, could we buy rock and haul it in, I am thinking it is possible, because we did it on Ledford and Homestead.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:22 PM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao View Post
    I think all mountain biker's that volunteer should be given wicking T'shirts that look like an a forum and say "Digging not B$tching"
    i would show up to get that shirt.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by extrmtao View Post
    I think all mountain biker's that volunteer should be given wicking T'shirts that look like an a forum and say "Digging not B$tching"
    +1

    Make some thing better happen.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  34. #34
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    None of the above.
    A bunch of my ride pics: http://uberfarm.com/mnf

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    Exactly as posted in the Lower Trace Ridge thread, minus one comment not relevant here:

    In my opinion, beating the water quality issue to death is NEVER going to convince the people who don't already understand it that a relocation is a good thing.

    The only thing that will is a re-location that creates a better riding experience that is consistent with the historic character of the trails in the region.

    Why don't we try focussing on how we are going to create a "Pisgah" trail (which, too me, means a rugged woods experience that creates a feeling of being part of nature rather than on a machine-built track) rather than why's, what for's, and water?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Exactly as posted in the Lower Trace Ridge thread, minus one comment not relevant here:

    In my opinion, beating the water quality issue to death is NEVER going to convince the people who don't already understand it that a relocation is a good thing.

    The only thing that will is a re-location that creates a better riding experience that is consistent with the historic character of the trails in the region.

    Why don't we try focussing on how we are going to create a "Pisgah" trail (which, too me, means a rugged woods experience that creates a feeling of being part of nature rather than on a machine-built track) rather than why's, what for's, and water?
    I like that idea, and my wheels have already been thinking about this and making my wishes know to the powers that bee. I will be out there all day this Saturday working and trying to figure just how to do that.
    Last edited by Logover; 10-06-2012 at 02:20 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
    Exactly as posted in the Lower Trace Ridge thread, minus one comment not relevant here:

    In my opinion, beating the water quality issue to death is NEVER going to convince the people who don't already understand it that a relocation is a good thing.

    The only thing that will is a re-location that creates a better riding experience that is consistent with the historic character of the trails in the region.

    Why don't we try focussing on how we are going to create a "Pisgah" trail (which, too me, means a rugged woods experience that creates a feeling of being part of nature rather than on a machine-built track) rather than why's, what for's, and water?
    In case y'all missed it:

    Mike, that focus is happening. It's part of every discussion we've had about the trail, with Backcountry Horsemen and the Forest Service. And every discussion we've had with the Forest Service has ended with them reminding us that for all our talk about trail experience, they need to solve a resource problem.

    Look at it this way: The house is burning. The fire chief is asking bigger volunteer organizations to bring in hook-and-ladders, and smaller groups are providing everything from tanker trucks to fire extinguishers depending on their resources. And all the while, there's a gaggle of folks across the street who want to debate the color of the paint in the kitchen.

    I'm not trying to convince anyone, but neither am I going to hide the work we do. I believe we should stand behind the projects we take on, and to me part of that includes transparency about our decision making. I'll let the conspiracy theorists take it from there.

  38. #38
    rsa
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    I'm choosing to get involved, and am on the PAS trail crew waiting list...

    People will always have differing opinions. In the end, it seems that the outcome will be most influenced by those get involved. For some, this will be through PAS. If others don't like the the organizational direction of PAS, I hope they can find other avenues to make a positive impact on the sport locally. This might be with your folding saws, working with a hiking crew, or starting your own advocacy group.

    If most existing PAS members prefer not to work south of Mills River, then maybe some of the hard core purists could form a "machine-less" trail crew that works deeper in Pisgah. That way they would have an avenue to do the work that they see fit, without compromising their values. I don't understand all the distrust toward PAS, but I suspect the organization would try to make room for a group of hand building purists that was willing to adopt some remote trails in Pisgah (especially if this resulted in positive outcomes). Maybe there are complex reasons that this wouldn't work.

    Rick

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    [QUOTE=rsa;9747895]I'm choosing to get involved, and am on the PAS trail crew waiting list...

    Rick,

    You are more than welcome to come down to upstate sc and help work on trails. I know Upstate SORBA does not have a waiting list.

    By the way why does PAS have a waiting list for trail crews? Is this part of the Forest Service agreement?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eccorp View Post
    By the way why does PAS have a waiting list for trail crews? Is this part of the Forest Service agreement?
    We had an "open enrollment" in August, prior to signing the new agreement. Since then, we've not added anyone as we nail down some of our processes to make sure we can handle the volume of folks who signed up. I'm in regular contact with anyone who signs up via our web site, keeping them up to date on the status, and will continue to do so.

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