Poll: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain days?

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  1. #1
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    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    Even if they're not required to, should the local race promoters have alternate routes for when it rains?

    With race promoters adding "Enduro" segments in their races, and with the amount of rainfall we had last year, this is a question of ethics for anyone who stands to make a profit.

  2. #2
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    Re: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    As long as the promoters fix what "they" legitimately mess up, and contribute a little pre-race damage control , then that is good enough for me.

    Rain or no rain they need to be responsible for the excess use and damage from the race.



    If they can't be responsible and fix it first, then the USFS should charge them to fix it. Whom ever fixes it should know what they are doing and have some sort of trail based training.

    I also think that land managers should charge enough to cover their expenses.


    Just my .02.
    Should you do more trail work?

  3. #3
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    It's really easier said than done to have an alternate route and/or date. I help put on two races (running races) and both would become logistical nightmares to have a different route ready just in case morning of or to have another date as an alternate. I just wouldn't put on the events personally.

    I think you have to stick to the date and the route.

    Now that being said....what I don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zod View Post

    Now that being said....what I don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.
    truer words may never have been spoken on any mtn bike forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by zod View Post
    it's really easier said than done to have an alternate route and/or date. I help put on two races (running races) and both would become logistical nightmares to have a different route ready just in case morning of or to have another date as an alternate. I just wouldn't put on the events personally.

    I think you have to stick to the date and the route.

    Now that being said....what i don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.
    Amen. Funny how people whine about litter & taking care of trails & then on race day they toss their empty goo packs & leave waterbottles, etc. on the trails because it was in the heat of the moment. Pffftt. There is a running club that is allowed to use the local park trails, (our local daily ride), for their races each yr, yet they have yet to clean up after themselves in any way shape or form, i.e. taping off corrected routes from the standard trail layout & leaving them up for riders, hikers to run into. you would think they would have a better "big picture view" from up on their hi-horses.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

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    You need a "I don't care" option in your poll.

  7. #7
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    Park raises a very valid point - profit. Promoters choose to endorse rainy day trail riding when they don't call the race. I understand the logistical nightmare of alt. routes, cancelled events, entry fee refunds, etc.

    At the end of the day what's more important? Sunny day trail riding, or rainy day trail racing? I vote for trail riding every time, and I'm a racer boy through and through. I'm not sure there's a good answer here and to be clear I'm saying this on level ground as I'm just as guilty of the next person to ride in less than desirable conditions at times. I do believe that if we only waited until the most ideal trail conditions our riding season would be much shorter than it's advertised. I also believe whole heartedly that there are much more serious issues that face our collective use of the National Forests here than riding bikes in the rain.

    Also want to be clear that I support (with my money that I earn in the bike industry) all the local race promoters. I believe in the sport of mountain bike racing and it's future, so let's not give these guys too much grief. Cheers.
    My one says BRAP!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand View Post
    Amen. Funny how people whine about litter & taking care of trails & then on race day they toss their empty goo packs & leave waterbottles, etc. on the trails because it was in the heat of the moment. Pffftt. There is a running club that is allowed to use the local park trails, (our local daily ride), for their races each yr, yet they have yet to clean up after themselves in any way shape or form, i.e. taping off corrected routes from the standard trail layout & leaving them up for riders, hikers to run into. you would think they would have a better "big picture view" from up on their hi-horses.
    I have a much bigger issue w/ the piles and piles of litter I've seen left by less than desirable NF users than the stray GU wrapper. Intentional littering versus unintentional littering and I choose to believe that the majority of Pisgah mountain bikers probably have unintentionally littered once or twice. I try to remedy my impact by going the extra inch and pick up at least one thing while I'm out riding. I hate seeing wrappers in the woods too, but if you're out there pushing your limits event or not, some times people make errors in judgement. I know I've missed my jersey or pack pocket more than once. Oops!
    My one says BRAP!

  9. #9
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    Re: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    IMHO, If you clean up your mess ( ie damage) by coming to trail work days and stopping to repair your most egregious damage on a ride especially in bad conditions then ride when you can...

    But its about righting wrongs and giving back what you take away from others. There are hundreds ways to give back to the trail system. If you can ride, you can help maintain the systems you love.

    I ride in most conditions, but I pick my routes according to the conditions, fix as I go, mostly ride alone, and I try to pull more than my weight with trail maintenance. I also think that overall WNC has some pretty forgiving trails compared to other areas.

    If a promoter's races cause damage, its on them. As a racer or rider it also falls on you. You don't have to race that day.
    Should you do more trail work?

  10. #10
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    Simple answer = No

    The degree of difficulty to reroute or reschedule is just not worth it and sometimes just not possible.

    Simple solution would be to set a mandatory maintenance fee based on the number of participants for the event. The fee would be charged regardless of rain or shine and would go directly to the organization that fixes the trails in that area.

    I think the money can be more helpful than expecting the race promoter to clean up after the event.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  11. #11
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    Clean up is mandatory. Trail rehab may or may not be...
    Should you do more trail work?

  12. #12
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    So, what exactly would these 'alternate' routes be? Take the Swank, for example, what would you make the alternate route?

    What if it starts raining during the event - what do you do then?

    Blaming races for all the problems mountain bikes cause in the forest - user conflicts, litter, tread damage, trail braiding, etc - is very short sighted. Are there negative effects of races? Yes. But the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. Cancelling an event if it rains (which is really the only option, alternate routes wouldn't really work) would be bad.

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Dumb troll thread and we have been through it many times on this board.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    So, what exactly would these 'alternate' routes be? Take the Swank, for example, what would you make the alternate route?

    What if it starts raining during the event - what do you do then?

    Blaming races for all the problems mountain bikes cause in the forest - user conflicts, litter, tread damage, trail braiding, etc - is very short sighted. Are there negative effects of races? Yes. But the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. Cancelling an event if it rains (which is really the only option, alternate routes wouldn't really work) would be bad.

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Dumb troll thread and we have been through it many times on this board.


    Driftwood you are spot on!

  14. #14
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Talk about some thing that should be easy to change, but isn't.

    How hard is it to to attend a workday? It takes an email and a few hours to make the trail closer to how you would want it in PNF.

    MTB'ers still do more serious tread work than other user groups. But we are still falling short of the goal (and I only say this for Driftwood) of more excellent and sustainable trails.
    Should you do more trail work?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    How hard is it to to attend a workday? It takes an email and a few hours to make the trail closer to how you would want it in PNF.
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  16. #16
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    Races do create a mess and cleaning up after should be part of the deal. If all races were planned on trails capable of handling any weather condition, the issue of trail damage would be less significant. However, especially with larger events, the UCI specifications for courses can make that hard. Demanding cloverleaf courses of set lengths and lap times can put races on terrain less suitable and durable than ideal.

    While our local experience is that racer-types do zero trailwork, at least there can be some race course trimming prior to events. It doesn't make up for watching all the spandex riding past trailcare sessions though IMO. Just thinking back, I cannot remember one spandex clad rider ever helping out with trailcare here.

    I think buying Lycra and racing must make people allergic to volunteering. I know, I know, they are all too busy getting in those 300km of training rides per week and have no spare time. It's OK, we try to get out of their way so as not to inconvenience their strava times and we pick up their goo and CO2 canisters so they don't have to feel guilty. And you know what - it works - they don't have any guilt at all.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    I have heard attending Church is used to describe riding bikes around our area.

    Sundays have always lined up best with the majority folks who actually do come out and help. Seems Sat, which is the day I believe you are leading up to, is reserved for doing something fun, like riding a bike.

    Perhaps we should set up a poll to see which day/time would be best for racers, promoters, and everyday riders to come out and do some trail work? People would be all over the place with the time available to them. But one thing I can guarantee, even if we did trail work on all the days that end in Y, folks would still make up excuses why they can't(or won't) commit time to the trails they so passionately talk about on these forums. Just saying!

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    I say yes, or at least have something in place to repair any damage to the trail. Last spring there was an Xterra race at Hickory Knob (McCormick, SC) that really damaged the trail. The local bike club, Sorba-CSRA, managed to get it fixed with over 300 volunteer hours into it.

    somewhere in the video the racer jokes about he should of used a kayak.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4MS0PRatGE

    SORBA_CSRA forum about it.
    2013 Hickory Knob Trail Conditions | SORBA-CSRA Community Bulletin Board

    The trail was closed for a few months. During that time I ran into two disappointed groups riding FATS that specifically camped at Hickory Knob so they could ride from their campsite besides driving to FATS.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    For the record:

    Our last workday in DuPont was on Nov 23 which was a Sat:
    DuPont Trail workday Nov 23rd

    We have a workday scheduled for this coming Sat:
    Pisgah SORBA workday in DuPont Sat. Jan 25th

    I looked back through 3-4 years of my records and though we do hold workdays on Sundays, we have had a good number on Saturdays, and some on Thur evenings after work. I try and mix up between Sat/Sun to try and capture different folks, and of course it has to fit my schedule and when i am in town.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    I have heard attending Church is used to describe riding bikes around our area.
    I attend church twice on Sundays. Once in a building and once in the woods.
    Also attend all day on Saturdays.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    For the record:

    Our last workday in DuPont was on Nov 23 which was a Sat:
    DuPont Trail workday Nov 23rd

    We have a workday scheduled for this coming Sat:
    Pisgah SORBA workday in DuPont Sat. Jan 25th

    I looked back through 3-4 years of my records and though we do hold workdays on Sundays, we have had a good number on Saturdays, and some on Thur evenings after work. I try and mix up between Sat/Sun to try and capture different folks, and of course it has to fit my schedule and when i am in town.
    Yup, I said most. I couldn't make Nov 23rd work day.
    I think there have been a couple others that were cancelled due to weather or some other reason including the camping one that I was going to go to.

    I have volunteered for things in the past but most work days just don't fall at a convenient time. I also carry a saw in the woods (in fact just bought a new sabercut for the sole purpose of keeping with me because it is easier to carry than my folding saw). I know unsanctioned trail work is usually frowned upon but if there is a downed tree in the trail that I can cut I will. I figure if I can't join work days, I can at least cut a tree or two.

    I was also already planning on joining this Saturday.

    However, it was a general statement and not about me. The point was many people can't make the standard days due to other obligations. It is great that you do a Saturday occasionally but it is rare. I do understand though because you and I had this conversation a while back that Saturdays don't always make the best days because the trails are busier.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    I attend church twice on Sundays. Once in a building and once in the woods.
    Also attend all day on Saturdays.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    Yup, seen it already and knew what Snototter was referring to when he posted which is why I said I attend twice on Sundays and all day Saturdays.

    (Hint: second time on Sunday and all day Saturday)
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  24. #24
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    I don't think the day of the week is why more people don't do trail work. Sure, for some people Sundays are no good. For some Saturdays are no good. Some people can only do weekdays. There is never going to be a perfect day for everyone. There is a lot more going on with the lack of stewardship by mountain bikers than just inconvenient trail work days....

    But back to the topic at hand: I came up with an alternate route for the Swank if it happens to rain at that event. Starting from Cove Creek:

    Right on FR475 >
    Left on FR471 (out and back to Kuykandell CG) >
    Back up to Glouchester Gap
    Straight on FR229 (out and back to the gate at the top) >
    Back down to Glouchester
    FR475 back down to Cove Creek campground

    That is a pretty good rain route. I'm sure a hundred people would love to pay a hundred dollars to ride that.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by plume View Post
    I have a much bigger issue w/ the piles and piles of litter I've seen left by less than desirable NF users than the stray GU wrapper. Intentional littering versus unintentional littering and I choose to believe that the majority of Pisgah mountain bikers probably have unintentionally littered once or twice. I try to remedy my impact by going the extra inch and pick up at least one thing while I'm out riding. I hate seeing wrappers in the woods too, but if you're out there pushing your limits event or not, some times people make errors in judgement. I know I've missed my jersey or pack pocket more than once. Oops!
    The main reason I bought a bigger pack, (yrs ago), was to carry out what other discard/litter in the woods. I don't race at all & have no problem w/races or racing, the problem is w/ promoters IMO. Ultimately it is their responsiblity to "leave no trace" as they have "put the show on". Now wheather or not they "use the riders" to clean up is up to them, (the promoters), either way the buck stops w/them, IMO
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

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    I would be interested in seeing the number of mtb trail users on a given race route and a during a race day before we go blaming the race promoter for damaging the trails. I was not able to make the 2014 new years ride in Pisgah but if my memory serves me correctly i believe there were over 50-60 mtbrs of all kinds riding on new years day. I know there over 25 from the upstate that rode and many of those have not participated in any type of trail work days other than Dupont.

    I agree that racers and race promoters need to be more involved in trail maintenance and sustainability and I think that for the most part the race promoters I know are working with the forestry service on this issue. Hiring trail builders to provide evaluations before and after and correct any damage created.

    As for alternate routes i am not sure how permits would work in order to do alternate routes as from my understanding race routes have to be laid out and submitted and approved by forestry service prior to permitting. Would an alternate route correct anything or just cause more damage to another trail?

  27. #27
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    I don't ride wet trails as a norm, I actually hate riding them wet, but if I've signed up for a race and it happens to rain, I'll be racing. Fortunately, I haven't been in that position yet.

    To answer the OP's question, I think it's not an option to re-route or post-pone an event due to rain...For reasons already stated.
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  28. #28
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    There's nothing dumb, or trolling about this. I don't spend too much time on here, but when I do, it's me, posting under my name, so anything I say is right there. I don't need to hide behind my keyboard or pretend like I don't know you on some high school lunchroom BS.

    A poll like this is not meant to point fingers, or name names or tell you what I think about whoever and how they conduct themselves or their business. That silliness I happily leave to you folks who have something to say, but won't stand behind your own name.

    It would be trolling if I didn't see a need to seriously consider mandating rain dates or re-routes for races in the forest, for everyone involved and for the people who come into the area and put on their own events. Having rain re-routes shows good form, because from any angle running tons of people through the woods in the rain is just a bad idea from inside the bike bubble, and it sure is from outside it.

    I see nothing good about having hundreds of people out there in the rain when it has been raining for weeks or days because what that ultimately does is give us a box to ride in, no matter which promoter is your friend.

    What do you want out of mountain biking? Do you want all of the bike trails to look and ride the same? Is it a scene more than anything to you? Is your passion so meek that about a thousand people have clicked on this poll and not voted?

  29. #29
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    Rain dates or even cancellations are, in my opinion, more realistic than re-routes.


    Park, I did not vote in the poll because I won't participate in any poll on any topic where the questions are written with clear bias. While there is no such thing as a perfect survey, polls are a valid form of seeking public opinion only if the questions cover a broad range of perspectives and are presented in a relatively neutral manner. Re-write the poll with more options and an attempt at neutrality and I'll vote. Using a poll to make a point and/or guilt people into seeing a problem is not an effective way to present an argument (at least not to me).
    Last edited by Mike Brown; 01-21-2014 at 05:45 PM.

  30. #30
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    Like Mike says the poll is very poorly written and clearly biased.

    Fascinating topic though. It could make a great editorial or feature story for a local newspaper.
    Last edited by driftwood; 01-22-2014 at 02:36 PM.
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  31. #31
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    Use your big boy words and explain how it's biased Clay.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    Use your big boy words and explain how it's biased Clay.
    Have you read it?

    Granted I realize you don't know anything about writing or polls but even a lay person like yourself might be able to see that the language you used in your poll pushes people to respond a certain way.

    The yes option clearly states that it is the "ethical" option that is "good for everyone". You even manage to include the local economy in the list of things the yes option is good for.

    The no option, based on the language you use, is clearly the poor choice. Pick No and everyone and everything suffers the consequences.

    Dumb troll thread.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    Use your big boy words and explain how it's biased Clay.
    So why do you go after Clay for agreeing with Mike?
    Why didn't you go after Mike instead since he was the one who said it?

    Anyways, I agree with Mike and Clay about the poll being biased but please don't make me use my big boy words to explain it.

    Also, it is an old and over discussed topic but I think that was already said too.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    Have you read it?

    Granted I realize you don't know anything about writing or polls but even a lay person like yourself might be able to see that the language you used in your poll pushes people to respond a certain way.

    The yes option clearly states that it is the "ethical" option that is "good for everyone". You even manage to include the local economy in the list of things the yes option is good for.

    The no option, based on the language you use, is clearly the poor choice. Pick No and everyone and everything suffers the consequences.

    Dumb troll thread.
    Exactly.

    I figured the entertainment value of this thread was going to be better than it has been though.

    It has always been a good battle between the Hairy Trail Princesses vs The Racer Boys. lol

    Must be all the holiday fat and lack of exercise that is making everyone lazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mopartodd View Post
    Exactly.

    I figured the entertainment value of this thread was going to be better than it has been though.

    It has always been a good battle between the Hairy Trail Princesses vs The Racer Boys. lol

    Must be all the holiday fat and lack of exercise that is making everyone lazy.
    And yet look who voted

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  37. #37
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    Pssst, who cares what happens in Ohio…… we are talking about Pisgah, that magical place where trails get repaired all by themselves.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    Pssst, who cares what happens in Ohio…… we are talking about Pisgah, that magical place where trails get repaired all by themselves.
    See, problem solved!

    lol
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  39. #39
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    rain happens. trails either self destruct or not. bikes have nothing to do with it. proper layout is key. bad layout results in this, which is btw a barely used hiking only trail on private land:

    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?-ruttedtrail.jpg
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  40. #40
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    Sideways,

    You are correct that poor design and water based erosion cause the most damage. Stating "bikes have nothing to do with it" is completely wrong. Bikes and all users have an impact on trails. Our impact goes up when trails are wet. Have you never seen bike tracks in wet soils? Have you not watched one of those videos showing bikes roosting and displacing soil by slinging around a turn?
    You are correct that hikers also have impacts.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideways View Post

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    I see a straight steep trail with no run off.
    Aka poorly designed.

    Also, barely used?
    Maybe not high traffic but uses enough that you can tell everyone is riding/walking up the right side instead of using the actual trail.

    All in all, poor example to use in order to try and prove a point.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    Sounds like a bait post from the Wilderness Coalition. Most responsible promoters assume it will rain when creating a course.

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    I had not noticed the wear pattern to the right, good point. Def signs that this trail is getting used by someone in some form of travel. The fact that the gully is not just full of leaves also tells us of some use patterns.

  44. #44
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    consider Ingles Field Gap, it's use, it's grade, and it's condition. How many hundreds of users on on it daily, regardless of weather? That's a well used trail, and as far as I can tell, very little has changed other than the number of users on it in the 12 years I've ridden it. Tracks on a wet trail are not a problem! They don't cause or escalate tread erosion. The soil remains on the tread. It's the trail that causes the problem, not users. and definitely not a single day of (maybe) heavier than average use!
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    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?-image-14.jpgShould race promoters have an alternate route for rain?-image-13.jpg

    How does this section of trail repair itself?



    Agree proper lay out is critical but considering most of our trails are not designed for mountain biking or running or hiking then that makes maintenance that much more important. We are not going to cut all new trails so we can safely ride when conditions would say stay home. People are going to use them and then let others worry about fixing them.

    A few weeks ago,during a crew leader meeting with the USFS, I had someone look right at me and said "those mountain bike races are responsible for the destruction of upper Black." Fortunately the forest service representative chimed in and said " no it is all mountain bikers on that section of trail not just racers". We have a public image problem yet we want to b*tch amongst ourselves.

    PS Sideways- I ask you to go walk the gully section on Lower Trace and tell me soil stays on the trail. Yes the trail is the problem but the users sure do accelerate the problem.

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    All users have impact, and thinking mtn bikes don't impact trail treads is as dumb as the hikers and trail runners who like to pretend they don't have an impact. Users compact tread is some cases, and also have displacement forces. Horses have the highest impacts, that is the result of weight, PSI due to small surface areas of contact and the walking action of the horse (I call this the physics of propulsion). Mtn bikes compact soils in some places, but hard braking, and turns can result in displaced soil (which is available to be taken away in the next rainstorm). Don't believe me, watch most any modern mtn bike video: Fight for your ride Video - Pinkbike

    Sticking our heads in the sand is just dumb. Recognizing that we do in fact have real impacts and trying to mitigate those impacts through volunteer trail work, better design, better trail maintenance techniques (such as rock armoring) is a much better strategy.
    Last edited by Woodman; 01-27-2014 at 06:55 PM.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    Is your passion so meek that about a thousand people have clicked on this poll and not voted?
    A better question is how many of that now almost 2000 have volunteered to do any trail work?

    If we don't do the work no one else will and we will likely lose trails. Races or no races.
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

  49. #49
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    As this thread rolls it is bringing up a lot of trail building issues. That was not the point the OP was making, but fact is the ultimate question when building a trail is whether it will withstand use. There is nothing worse than trying to make a trail survive increasing use when it was made without forethought (or basic trail design concepts, or raw materials, or care, or...).

    I feel for Snototter because we have a trail that can and has done that here. Most people will say turnpike or elevated tread. We are going to progressively embed gravel in multiple portions the next time it becomes sodden. The aim is to embed 10-15cm into the tread, bit by bit (2-4 sessions of serious tamping) so it hardens into a Roman road made of tiny bits. Our problem site only gets sodden when massive amounts of rain fall over long periods and water moves through subsoil channels and emerges onto or under the trail. Even fencing the trail entrances off failed to stop riders adding to the same mess in Snototter's pics last summer. What we cannot predict is when we will get the chance to do the job as it has been perfect to dry for many months.

    We know there is no stopping the public, so we have to rectify this problem. No-one else will.

    It is true that all user groups have an environmental impact and it is also totally appropriate to ask whether "we" are doing anything to manage our impact. If "we" as a collective do not show an inclination to manage our singletrack environment, races or no races then we are letting ourselves down. After all, it is we who want to be there and are there, so if we let our world turn into an open sewer, that will hardly leave us with enthusiasm or pleasure to feel good about the next piece of our lives.

    So, to summarise: after the next race, weather event or tourist season leaves your local trail system decimated, you will find yourself in one of three groups:

    I don't give enough of a $uck to help - 99.9%
    I was helping with trailcare before and I have more work to do now - 0.05%
    Uncommited - 0.05%

    There is a subgroup of the first option - I need to complain about it online - 99.8%

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    The widening of the trail above is from riders not staying on the trail. I have seen areas, off limits to bikes, just as bad and at times wider caused by hikers and trail runners who avoid a wet section be "creeping" around the edges.

  51. #51
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    Everything we do causes erosion somewhere in the process.
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    As this thread rolls it is bringing up a lot of trail building issues. That was not the point the OP was making, but fact is the ultimate question when building a trail is whether it will withstand use. There is nothing worse than trying to make a trail survive increasing use when it was made without forethought (or basic trail design concepts, or raw materials, or care, or...).

    I feel for Snototter because we have a trail that can and has done that here. Most people will say turnpike or elevated tread. We are going to progressively embed gravel in multiple portions the next time it becomes sodden. The aim is to embed 10-15cm into the tread, bit by bit (2-4 sessions of serious tamping) so it hardens into a Roman road made of tiny bits. Our problem site only gets sodden when massive amounts of rain fall over long periods and water moves through subsoil channels and emerges onto or under the trail. Even fencing the trail entrances off failed to stop riders adding to the same mess in Snototter's pics last summer. What we cannot predict is when we will get the chance to do the job as it has been perfect to dry for many months.

    We know there is no stopping the public, so we have to rectify this problem. No-one else will.

    It is true that all user groups have an environmental impact and it is also totally appropriate to ask whether "we" are doing anything to manage our impact. If "we" as a collective do not show an inclination to manage our singletrack environment, races or no races then we are letting ourselves down. After all, it is we who want to be there and are there, so if we let our world turn into an open sewer, that will hardly leave us with enthusiasm or pleasure to feel good about the next piece of our lives.

    So, to summarise: after the next race, weather event or tourist season leaves your local trail system decimated, you will find yourself in one of three groups:

    I don't give enough of a $uck to help - 99.9%
    I was helping with trailcare before and I have more work to do now - 0.05%
    Uncommited - 0.05%

    There is a subgroup of the first option - I need to complain about it online - 99.8%


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    Like all threads on MTBR they rarely stay on the original topic. I don't like the way this thread started but I am glad it has evolved to some of the other underlying issues.

    Ridnparadise wanted to show you what we ended up doing with that mud hole. Slopped it out (8 man hours) and tried to grade it so water would exit at several points. Basically we are at grade now so there will be no more "slopping out" because it would then be a hole. The next fix will be railroad ballast, awesome! This is the problem with trails..I mean roads not being designed for its intend use, not being allowed to work outside existing corridors and a sh*t ton of usage.

    We all know this thread is about Pisgah because I know Park is a passionate Pisgah rider but it certainly applies to all race promoters. In the Pisgah Ranger District we really only have two perennial race promoters in the area with a third trying to get their foot in the door. Yes there is also a trail race called Cradle to Grave that is use(ed) a few trails accessible to mountain bikes. I hold all those promoters accountable for any excessive wear and tear to trails if they start the race during nasty weather. And for the record one of the most seasoned promoters does more volunteer trail work in Pisgah than even myself and I consider that big time giving back. That being said I agree it is not one race or a multitude of races that wreck trails and give us a bad image with other user groups. It is all the out of town riders, local riders, racers, etc etc and that is ok because the forest is here for everyone to use as long it is being respected.

    What I don't get is the lack of effort to maintain the trails we do have. We are HAND cutting a new trail in Pisgah but only a hardy few show up to lend a hand. It is easier than ever to get involved with trail maintenance but hardly anyone wants to commit. I am not going to blame any promoter for trying to make a living suppling us with a fun product that utilizes and showcases our slice of heaven but I will not hold my tongue if they or anyone else is taking more than they are giving.

  53. #53
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    Very well stated, thank you for your comments.

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    "The aim is to embed 10-15cm into the tread, bit by bit (2-4 sessions of serious tamping) so it hardens into a Roman road made of tiny bits."

    Here are some photos of a real Roman Road in Wales. They had something we don't have, lots of cheap labor.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  55. #55
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    Hey Everybody!

    I've been following this thread with interest for obvious reasons. Thank you for the open discussion.

    I will say first that there is no way I could have a second 'rain day' course, ready to go, in case of rain. The permitting and on-the-ground logistics would make that nearly impossible. Maybe if we had very deep pockets and a staff of dozens, but not this year.

    Last year we had serious rain at PMBAR, the 111K, and the 55.5K. This was only the second REAL rainout of PMBAR in 12 years. The 111 and 55.5 have not been around long enough to have meaningful data...

    So, what do we do? The only thing I can think of is event cancellation insurance.

    You guys can do the math and figure out how much I would need to refund if we called the event due to rain. I think there would be plenty of ticked-off people out there if I called the event and just sent them home empty handed and without the experience they paid for.

    You guys are also resourceful, how much rain would be enough to call it? 1/2" in the 8 hours preceding? 1"? My insurance goes by actual amounts, not published forecasts so calling it because of a forecast of rain is even harder. Theoretically, If I say 'race-called' because of a forecast of, say 1" of rain during the event, then the actual rain amount is 15/16"... insurance doesn't kick in.

    Oh, and naturally, this type of insurance is NOT cheap. So, my question (maybe I should start a poll): Would you rather:

    1. The prices of the events go up to cover the expense of the insurance, it rains, I say no race, and you get your money back.

    2. The prices of the events go up less, it rains, I say no race, and you get 50% of your money back.

    3. I don't buy insurance, the event fees don't go up (due to insurance) and you get no refund, just a 'Sorry and Thank you.'

    4 (edit). Stay the course and suffer the consequences.

    I'm open to suggestions.

    Eric Wever
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  56. #56
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    Eric, I have no idea what you do or do not do for the trails and what not. I do get the impression that you do have a good rep around here though and that speaks volumes.

    IMO, you stay the course (unless it becomes an issue of safety).
    Now that being said, I have no idea how much of your proceeds go to the organizations that do the majority of the trail maintenance (in our case it is usually SORBA). However, I say come up with an agreeable average amount and donate that each race rain or shine.
    It was said to me best that "volunteering is great but sometimes what is needed is money".
    Maybe adding $5 or $10 for each racer to go directly to SORBA is the ticket. This would allow them to buy tools, materials and equipment. In return it helps them to maintain or build more trails which allows you to have better races so it is a win/win for everyone.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahproductions View Post
    Hey Everybody!

    I've been following this thread with interest for obvious reasons. Thank you for the open discussion.

    I will say first that there is no way I could have a second 'rain day' course, ready to go, in case of rain. The permitting and on-the-ground logistics would make that nearly impossible. Maybe if we had very deep pockets and a staff of dozens, but not this year.

    Last year we had serious rain at PMBAR, the 111K, and the 55.5K. This was only the second REAL rainout of PMBAR in 12 years. The 111 and 55.5 have not been around long enough to have meaningful data...

    So, what do we do? The only thing I can think of is event cancellation insurance.

    You guys can do the math and figure out how much I would need to refund if we called the event due to rain. I think there would be plenty of ticked-off people out there if I called the event and just sent them home empty handed and without the experience they paid for.

    You guys are also resourceful, how much rain would be enough to call it? 1/2" in the 8 hours preceding? 1"? My insurance goes by actual amounts, not published forecasts so calling it because of a forecast of rain is even harder. Theoretically, If I say 'race-called' because of a forecast of, say 1" of rain during the event, then the actual rain amount is 15/16"... insurance doesn't kick in.

    Oh, and naturally, this type of insurance is NOT cheap. So, my question (maybe I should start a poll): Would you rather:

    1. The prices of the events go up to cover the expense of the insurance, it rains, I say no race, and you get your money back.

    2. The prices of the events go up less, it rains, I say no race, and you get 50% of your money back.

    3. I don't buy insurance, the event fees don't go up (due to insurance) and you get no refund, just a 'Sorry and Thank you.'

    4 (edit). Stay the course and suffer the consequences.

    I'm open to suggestions.

    Eric Wever
    Pisgah Productions
    I have ridden several of your races and volunteered at 2 of your races. Don't let the few iceholes left on here sway you one way or the other.You have been successful so far so stay the course.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    I have ridden several of your races and volunteered at 2 of your races. Don't let the few iceholes left on here sway you one way or the other.You have been successful so far so stay the course.
    That is a shallow way of thinking.

    How about instead he does what he is doing here and get input maybe make things better for everyone including himself.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  59. #59
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    This may not be popular but may I suggest a trail use fee. Not just for racing but for all with funds being used for trail maintenance. I know in the White Mountains of NH there is a parking fee at trail heads. if I recall $3 a day, $5 a week and a year pass for $20. Funds are supposed to be used for up keep of trail heads/trails (mostly hiking only) I live close to FATS an would not hesitate to pay a yearly fee.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianW. View Post
    This may not be popular but may I suggest a trail use fee. Not just for racing but for all with funds being used for trail maintenance. I know in the White Mountains of NH there is a parking fee at trail heads. if I recall $3 a day, $5 a week and a year pass for $20. Funds are supposed to be used for up keep of trail heads/trails (mostly hiking only) I live close to FATS an would not hesitate to pay a yearly fee.
    Would probably cost more to implement than it would ever make return in Pisgah.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  61. #61
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    Eric and all other race promoters,


    First I understand staying the course when it comes to rain. Logistically you have to. It's just that plain and simple. As for last year's rain it started in April and kind of stopped in the Autumn.

    Here is a thought though. By saying this I am in no means saying your races are solely responsible for the damage. Instead maybe it's a way to generate some much needed funds to perform some trail maintenance since very few seem inclined to volunteer. I am guilty of that myself. What I am getting at is simple economics in regards to supply and demand. It seems your races sell out in record times. Would it be unrealistic to raise the prices of your races and donating a percentage of those proceeds to have trail maintenance performed?

    Maybe even doing a single or bi annual charity event to raise trail maintenance and building funds. Unless your participants are that short sighted, I fail to see why they would mind paying a little extra knowing that it goes to something they are benefiting from.

    Now making sure those funds generated are spent correctly that is a tough one. I know PAS gets a bad rap on these forums but I don't see anyone else pushing the cause and it's quite disappointing that with so many participants in our sport we have so few that seems to be concerned about the sustainability of our trails.
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

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    Contrary to what has been said in this thread - participants/volunteers are not the problem.There are plenty of people volunteering and the # is growing every day. ←this is not the problem.
    Race promoters are probably stepping over volunteers waiting to fix any damage to trails their race might have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    I only check one schedule when I decide to host a workday, my schedule. I do not check the race schedule in deciding when to hold a workday, there is always something going on somewhere. We have always had folks show up for every workday I have ever led , and if anything our volunteer support continues to grow."We had a great turn out of 11 brave folks today for a workday"
    Who remembers the first "Save the trails challenge"?


  63. #63
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    Really not enough volunteers? If that is the case why is there still so much work to done? Why is it a constant complaint with trail crew leaders that volunteer turnout is so poor?

    I guess there is also a plethora of money and no additional funds are required? I guess we can just sit back and let the forest service do the maintenance and create new trails for us. I am sure PAS would wish people would quit showing up for trail work as trying to manage that huge number of people is too much for them.

    I guess we can look forward to some sweet bike specific downhill trails being made now since the land managers know we have such a great handle on everything.


    Ok please enlighten me exactly what is the problem?
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

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    Yes, I noted that volunteerism seems to be on the rise. Yes, I was more than impressed that 10 folks joined me for a workday in DuPont on Sat. when it was a very cold day (thanks again to all who showed up).

    But let's have a quick math lesson shall we. If 20 people showed on this past Sat. for the workday in DuPont, we could have gotten twice as much work done in the same amount of time. Or, we could have done the same amount of work done as what we got done, but in 1/2 the timeframe. That would leave more time for us who did the work to join you on a bike ride. I love working on trails, but riding my mtn bike is even more fun. We had plenty of extra tools, we even had one that would fit your hands.

    If there were more volunteers working on the Lower Trace Ridge relocation, the project might have been finished by now and the crew free to go work on some other trail issue elsewhere.

    On any given day that there is a crew of say 10 volunteers working on trails in Bent Creek, there are over 1,000 using the same very trails.

    We had over 100" of rain last year in most parts of the state, some areas in Trans County got 140". Couple that with increasing and record user counts on trails not really designed to handle that rainfall amount or level of use, and the net effect is problems arising much faster than the small numbers (but increasing) of volunteers can handle.

    And since you mentioned Save the Trails Challenge, lets have a look at that. I am never around for the event, but can report the following:

    -STTC does in fact have a rain/wet option route and which route to use is decided a few days before the event based on real world conditions. If this one event can have alterante routes planned based on rainfall amounts leading up to the event, then it would seem other races could do the same.

    -That year that you refer to was wet but everyone was impressed with how dry the trails were, that speaks to design and care. Organizers (PAS volunteers) rode the course the day before and made a decision on what courses to use based on what they saw and working with the land managing agency on a final decision.

    -The proceeds of that event (ride, not a race) go directly back into the trails in some way as that is a PAS event. We bought a nice stash of trail tools last year from the proceeds. The profits of races in our area go to the race director, though there is some discussion here about them making donations to PAS-SORBA to help out.

    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    Contrary to what has been said in this thread - participants/volunteers are not the problem.There are plenty of people volunteering and the # is growing every day. ←this is not the problem.
    Race promoters are probably stepping over volunteers waiting to fix any damage to trails their race might have done.



    Who remembers the first "Save the trails challenge"?


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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    Contrary to what has been said in this thread - participants/volunteers are not the problem.There are plenty of people volunteering and the # is growing every day. ←this is not the problem.
    Race promoters are probably stepping over volunteers waiting to fix any damage to trails their race might have done.
    What is "The Problem" then?

    Since there are enough volunteers but yet there are still problems, would the problem then be too many users, too many trails or maybe a combination of both?

    I suppose if they took the volunteers they have, limited our local trail systems down about 50 miles worth and cut the number of users down to 1/10 of what we have, you are correct. There are enough volunteers then.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    There could be no problems. A lot of riders perspective is that 75% of the trail work is not needed.Cutting out downed trees or excessive debris would cover the other 25%.

    Mountain biking is not supposed to be mud and water free.Mountain bikes have knobby tires for a reason.

    Look at the percentage of riders at just Bentcreek every day compared to people who post on this forum in a day.How many riders complain about poor trail conditions? 5% maybe.The 15 posters on this forum complain more than most.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    There could be no problems. A lot of riders perspective is that 75% of the trail work is not needed.Cutting out downed trees or excessive debris would cover the other 25%.

    Mountain biking is not supposed to be mud and water free.Mountain bikes have knobby tires for a reason.

    Look at the percentage of riders at just Bentcreek every day compared to people who post on this forum in a day.How many riders complain about poor trail conditions? 5% maybe.The 15 posters on this forum complain more than most.
    Again, very short sighted.

    So things like our impact in the forest and water quality mean nothing to you?
    Sustainability so that these trails will be here for the next 100 years means nothing to you? It isn't about what you or your bike is capable of, it is about insuring that we don't destroy our natural resources. There is a lot more to the forest than just trails where you can demonstrate your mad gnarly uber elite mountain biking skills.

    I understand that not everyone can help. In fact I don't help half as much as I wish I could. However, if you can't help, please don't hurt by spewing misinformation.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    There could be no problems. A lot of riders perspective is that 75% of the trail work is not needed.Cutting out downed trees or excessive debris would cover the other 25%.

    Mountain biking is not supposed to be mud and water free.Mountain bikes have knobby tires for a reason.

    Look at the percentage of riders at just Bentcreek every day compared to people who post on this forum in a day.How many riders complain about poor trail conditions? 5% maybe.The 15 posters on this forum complain more than most.

    I love this! It just confirms how shallow and self centered some people are about mountain biking.

    News Flash....... We are not the only user group in the forest.

    Do you not remember the part about the PUBLICS perception of mountain biking in the forest.

    Whatever dude, carry on!

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    There could be no problems. A lot of riders perspective is that 75% of the trail work is not needed.Cutting out downed trees or excessive debris would cover the other 25%.

    Mountain biking is not supposed to be mud and water free.Mountain bikes have knobby tires for a reason.

    Look at the percentage of riders at just Bentcreek every day compared to people who post on this forum in a day.How many riders complain about poor trail conditions? 5% maybe.The 15 posters on this forum complain more than most.
    Ah ha this is the old flow versus technical, manicured versus wild trail, machine versus hand debate. Basically you disagree with what the IMBA and land mangers have determined to be a sustainable trail.

    To a certain degree, I actually agree with you. Personally I prefer technical features, like rock gardens and drops. However severally rutted and eroded trails I don't consider technical, they are just a mess. I think they also tend to give other trail user's negative impressions of mountain bike riders because they see our tire tracks.

    I am curious as to which trail work has offended you? I suspect trail work like Squirrel gap and Kitsuma. Remember though that was the land managers not PAS, IMBA or anyone else who contracted the work. If memory serves me right it unfortunately went to low bidders who didn't do a great job.

    As for maintenance done, do you really have a problem with creating drains, clearing drains, creating outslopes, and reversed grades which prevent erosion?

    As for downed trees, I too like that challenge so unless it is truly impassable and or creating a reroute I prefer them to be there.

    I won't comment on what the perception is for most users but it could also be said there are only a handful of user that complain too much is being done. I think it is pretty apparent that there are some real issues with some of our trails. Most importantly it is the land managers who see this as an issue. If you don't think they will shut down an area due to sedimentation and damaging water quality you need to look no further than the Telico ORV trails. They should have shut those down years ago IMHO. As an avid fisherman I also have a vested interest in the water quality of our streams, as do other user groups. So please keep that in mind.

    Back to trail building and maintenance. Like I said I too prefer technical and challenging trails. I think if you even look at what the IMBA suggests you will find that the further away you get from the trail head the more appropriate it is to have it designed to be more technical and difficult to meet the desires of the users who make it out that far.

    So maybe if there were more volunteers and more money we could have more hand cut technical single track. That is why I am trying to get involved, and do some volunteer work. I can't sit here and complain either way if I am just out ridding and not trying to actually do something about it by being involved and proactive.
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    I love this! It just confirms how shallow and self centered some people are about mountain biking.

    News Flash....... We are not the only user group in the forest.

    Do you not remember the part about the PUBLICS perception of mountain biking in the forest.

    Whatever dude, carry on!
    The physical impact is one thing (and very real), but it is really the social impact that has more long term effects. You provided several photos showing tons of bike tracks in wet areas with mud. No foot prints in those same photos, so to the uneducated (large majority) they see the tracks and become experts in trail user impacts spewing that mtn bikes clearly have more impact. I dealt with this just this week, trail runners spewing half-truths about the impacts of bikes on forest trails. I was quick to point to the science based studies available, share photos foot prints in mud on trails, but also remind them that trail runners are getting a free lunch and are not contributing to trail maintenance efforts. This is very true after a race, very easy for a hiker to go out see real impacts and get vocal about the impacts of mtn biking on forest trails. Pisgah SORBA leadership received a nasty-gram letter last year after one of the spring races that happened during a very wet period. I will try and find that and post it up. So, here on MTBR 65% of readers (all mtn bikers) believe that there should be alternative routes for races during wet/rainy days. My guess is if we polled non mtn bikers (you know, the other users we share the forest trails with) that 100% would state bikes are having a larger impact on trails (compared with their use) and of course there should be wet vs. dry race courses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Eric, I have no idea what you do or do not do for the trails and what not. I do get the impression that you do have a good rep around here though and that speaks volumes.

    IMO, you stay the course (unless it becomes an issue of safety).
    Now that being said, I have no idea how much of your proceeds go to the organizations that do the majority of the trail maintenance (in our case it is usually SORBA). However, I say come up with an agreeable average amount and donate that each race rain or shine.
    It was said to me best that "volunteering is great but sometimes what is needed is money".
    Maybe adding $5 or $10 for each racer to go directly to SORBA is the ticket. This would allow them to buy tools, materials and equipment. In return it helps them to maintain or build more trails which allows you to have better races so it is a win/win for everyone.
    That is exactly what happens in most places. I was just down in GA doing some work with the Woodstock SORBA Chapter and the race director of a number of races held at Blankets Creek donates between $2500-5000 per race, depending on size of the event. In Bend OR, the races held on trails that Central Oregon Trails Alliance maintains always give good donations to COTA.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    The physical impact is one thing (and very real), but it is really the social impact that has more long term effects. You provided several photos showing tons of bike tracks in wet areas with mud. No foot prints in those same photos, so to the uneducated (large majority) they see the tracks and become experts in trail user impacts spewing that mtn bikes clearly have more impact. I dealt with this just this week, trail runners spewing half-truths about the impacts of bikes on forest trails. I was quick to point to the science based studies available, share photos foot prints in mud on trails, but also remind them that trail runners are getting a free lunch and are not contributing to trail maintenance efforts. This is very true after a race, very easy for a hiker to go out see real impacts and get vocal about the impacts of mtn biking on forest trails. Pisgah SORBA leadership received a nasty-gram letter last year after one of the spring races that happened during a very wet period. I will try and find that and post it up. So, here on MTBR 65% of readers (all mtn bikers) believe that there should be alternative routes for races during wet/rainy days. My guess is if we polled non mtn bikers (you know, the other users we share the forest trails with) that 100% would state bikes are having a larger impact on trails (compared with their use) and of course there should be wet vs. dry race courses.

    Gawd, where's the stinking "like" button on this forum!!!

  73. #73
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    I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread.

    Has it reached the point where we are blaming the trails themselves now?
    What needs to happen is eventually trail users need to start trying to get water off the trail.

    It doesn't matter if the trail is poorly designed. It doesn't matter if mountain bikers race in the rain. It doesn't matter if you like flow trails or technical single track. It doesn't matter if you like one promoter's races but not another's.

    What matters is getting the water off the trails. This would require proactive trail maintenance.

    Drains are simply not being kept clear in Pisgah. If we are not willing to get the water off the trail they are all going to become eroded embarrassments like upper Black.

    Blame it on the trails, blame it on the races, blame it on ourselves.
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    Should promoters have rainy race day alternate?
    No. Ride the race as is. But, donate money to the local trail maintenance organization. Im doing my first PMBAR this year and i really hope that at least a few of my $70 will go back into the trails. If not, let me know so i can donate directly.

    Local trail advocacy groups: keep doing what your doing and keep land managers happy. They're the ones that have final say anyway.
    Best to keep them happy and avoid conflict cause they can and will shut us down.

    I like upper Black the way it is, even though its not sustainable. Shed the water, Keep the Gnar.
    Last edited by Banjopickin; 01-29-2014 at 06:34 PM.

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    Shallow - Short sighted - self centered ....seems like a lot of energy trying to pick a good nomenclature to fit me.What's funny is y'all probably think this thread/poll will solve something.
    These trails will be here when ur gone.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    So, here on MTBR 65% of readers (all mtn bikers) believe that there should be alternative routes for races during wet/rainy days. My guess is if we polled non mtn bikers (you know, the other users we share the forest trails with) that 100% would state bikes are having a larger impact on trails (compared with their use) and of course there should be wet vs. dry race courses.
    65% of respondents believe there should be an alternative route for races during wet rainy/days. Not readers- respondents. I read, but did not respond, because there is not a choice I agree with. Re-routes are not a logistical possibility. Rain dates and/or cancellations are and are also a better, more effective solution, in my opinion.
    Last edited by Mike Brown; 01-29-2014 at 07:45 PM.

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    One thing I've always thought was weird about this sub-forum (North and South Carolina) was that the highest percentage of users are from North Carolina,and mostly from Western North Carolina.The biggest discussions are about Pisgah.

    There is a need for a separate forum; Western NC Whiners.
    Threads would look exactly the same.
    Pisgah trail conditions....
    Are there too many races in Pisgah.... etc...etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahproductions View Post
    Hey Everybody!

    I've been following this thread with interest for obvious reasons. Thank you for the open discussion.

    I will say first that there is no way I could have a second 'rain day' course, ready to go, in case of rain. The permitting and on-the-ground logistics would make that nearly impossible. Maybe if we had very deep pockets and a staff of dozens, but not this year.

    Last year we had serious rain at PMBAR, the 111K, and the 55.5K. This was only the second REAL rainout of PMBAR in 12 years. The 111 and 55.5 have not been around long enough to have meaningful data...

    So, what do we do? The only thing I can think of is event cancellation insurance.

    You guys can do the math and figure out how much I would need to refund if we called the event due to rain. I think there would be plenty of ticked-off people out there if I called the event and just sent them home empty handed and without the experience they paid for.

    You guys are also resourceful, how much rain would be enough to call it? 1/2" in the 8 hours preceding? 1"? My insurance goes by actual amounts, not published forecasts so calling it because of a forecast of rain is even harder. Theoretically, If I say 'race-called' because of a forecast of, say 1" of rain during the event, then the actual rain amount is 15/16"... insurance doesn't kick in.

    Oh, and naturally, this type of insurance is NOT cheap. So, my question (maybe I should start a poll): Would you rather:

    1. The prices of the events go up to cover the expense of the insurance, it rains, I say no race, and you get your money back.

    2. The prices of the events go up less, it rains, I say no race, and you get 50% of your money back.

    3. I don't buy insurance, the event fees don't go up (due to insurance) and you get no refund, just a 'Sorry and Thank you.'

    4 (edit). Stay the course and suffer the consequences.

    I'm open to suggestions.

    Eric Wever
    Pisgah Productions
    How bout this as an option? Work with the local advocacy group to provide volunteer efforts before and after the race to assess and repair any damage that may be caused during the race. In return offer a free entry or discounted entry into the race for their volunteer efforts. 25-50 entries set aside at $10 an hour for 7 hours of work.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    One thing I've always thought was weird about this sub-forum (North and South Carolina) was that the highest percentage of users are from North Carolina,and mostly from Western North Carolina.The biggest discussions are about Pisgah.

    There is a need for a separate forum; Western NC Whiners.
    Threads would look exactly the same.
    Pisgah trail conditions....
    Are there too many races in Pisgah.... etc...etc...
    And that would be a red herring.

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    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    Understood. It could be said however tat a majority of even mtn bikers think there needs to be some solution developed to deal with the real impacts that races have. Would you agree with that?

    And I still feel that 100% of non mtn bikers (other forest trail users) would agree that they feel some solutions to the impact races have on public trails need to be developed.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    Should promoters have rainy race day alternate?
    No. Ride the race as is. But, donate money to the local trail maintenance organization. Im doing my first PMBAR this year and i really hope that at least a few of my $70 will go back into the trails. If not, let me know so i can donate directly.

    Local trail advocacy groups: keep doing what your doing and keep land managers happy. They're the ones that have final say anyway.
    Best to keep them happy and avoid conflict cause they can and will shut us down.

    I like upper Black the way it is, even though its not sustainable. Shed the water, Keep the Gnar.

    Very well stated, thanks for these thoughts. I have not been on upper Black in many many years, but am hearing less than great things about the impact there. I think many want to keep the technical feel of trails, me included. Once a trail gets well below grade (lower than surrounding land), it gets very difficult if not impossible to get the water off tread.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjopickin
    Local trail advocacy groups: keep doing what your doing and keep land managers happy. They're the ones that have final say anyway.
    Best to keep them happy and avoid conflict cause they can and will shut us down.
    Mountain biking is bringing way too much money into the region for the USFS to 'shut down' mountain biking. Advocacy groups need to advocate for the users they represent. Doing what the land managers want is not always what is best for the users. We know the USFS is pushing for less trails. I'm not at all convinced that less trails is what is best for regional trail users.

    Quote Originally Posted by banjopickin
    I like upper Black the way it is, even though its not sustainable. Shed the water, Keep the Gnar.
    I like upper Black the way it used to be before the waterbars (drains) filled, mountain bikers widened the trail corridor to twelve feet and it became an eroded mess. It was difficult before but now it is just sad. That stretch of trail is a perfect example of how the current paradigm in Pisgah is simply not working. Eventually someone is going to need to work to open drains and get water off the trails. Unless, of course the goal is less trails....

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman
    And I still feel that 100% of non mtn bikers (other forest trail users) would agree that they feel some solutions to the impact races have on public trails need to be developed.
    I strongly disagree. I know a lot of non mountain bikers trail users and most are unaware that there are even mountain bike races in Pisgah. The only ones who know about races are the ones who are unfortunate enough to get caught on a race course, know racing mountain bikers or who are involved with the forest at a deeper level.

    I would argue that the vast majority of non mountain biker trail users view mountain bikes as the cause of most of the tread damage to local trails.

    The problems are not limited to races.

    Get rid of the races completely and there are still going to be plenty of problems caused by mountain bikes.

    But everyone needs a scapegoat, I guess.
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    Hey everyone this is waaayyyy off the topic but maybe not so much as I would think.

    I want to propose something and hear me out before you rip into the idea.

    I would like to schedule an MTBR(kidding approved volunteer) workday this spring to tackle upper Black Mountain drainage issues. Talking shuttle to Pressly Gap and Buckhorn Gap, walking the entire length and giving it some love. Then possibly having a little social and ride afterwards. Of course all of this would have to be run past the powers that be but I feel pretty confident I can make this happen.

    Now before you start b*tching about it being a PAS day, even though it technically would be since we would use their tools, equipment, etc. know this, you do not have to be a PAS member to work with me or any of the other trail crew leaders. You just need to be on the USFS approved work list. That is super easy to do and I can get you links on how to do it.

    Think about it though, everyone on here likes or liked upper Black. It is a fantastic loop close to town but it needs help or we run the risk of losing it. Granted clearing drains and such may not do much in the long run if it is to far gone in sections but the effort and energy would go a long way to the other users and USFS to say "hey we do care about that section of trail"

    If I can get some interest from anyone other than the handful of dedicated regulars I will promise to make this happen.

    BTW (cough cough)Pisgahproductions if we needed a sponsor for say snacks and beverages after said work day can we count on you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    Hey everyone this is waaayyyy off the topic but maybe not so much as I would think.

    I want to propose something and hear me out before you rip into the idea.

    I would like to schedule an MTBR(kidding approved volunteer) workday this spring to tackle upper Black Mountain drainage issues. Talking shuttle to Pressly Gap and Buckhorn Gap, walking the entire length and giving it some love. Then possibly having a little social and ride afterwards. Of course all of this would have to be run past the powers that be but I feel pretty confident I can make this happen.

    Now before you start b*tching about it being a PAS day, even though it technically would be since we would use their tools, equipment, etc. know this, you do not have to be a PAS member to work with me or any of the other trail crew leaders. You just need to be on the USFS approved work list. That is super easy to do and I can get you links on how to do it.

    Think about it though, everyone on here likes or liked upper Black. It is a fantastic loop close to town but it needs help or we run the risk of losing it. Granted clearing drains and such may not do much in the long run if it is to far gone in sections but the effort and energy would go a long way to the other users and USFS to say "hey we do care about that section of trail"

    If I can get some interest from anyone other than the handful of dedicated regulars I will promise to make this happen.

    BTW (cough cough)Pisgahproductions if we needed a sponsor for say snacks and beverages after said work day can we count on you?
    For those that don't know ~ What exactly goes into getting approved by the USFS?

  85. #85
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    Re: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    For those that don't know ~ What exactly goes into getting approved by the USFS?
    A lot. I am happy to work with Snot to get a plan approved. We have already run through some of this with the FS.
    Should you do more trail work?

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    A lot. I am happy to work with Snot to get a plan approved. We have already run through some of this with the FS.
    Are we confusing two different things? What Sassy or bolded was maybe out of context. I am assuming he want to know what it would take to work with a PAS trail leader. If that is the case it is all he should have to do is submit his name and email here:
    Pisgah Area SORBA » Add me to the Trail Crew list

    Now if he wants work on the trails outside of the agreement with PAS and the FS, yes that is a whole other can of worms.

    Or maybe I am confused and he is asking what is required to propose trailwork with the FS, for that I will defer to the crew leaders.

    Yes, I would help out with the BM trail work this spring. Selfishly I would ask for late March or Early April as work will likely have me away end of February and early March.
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  87. #87
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    I agree that the races are not the main problem, they contribute to it but are a smaller portion of the problem IMHO.
    I would love to see more of such mentioned workdays brought to reality. Some of us would love to be able to lend a hand, however can't make the normally scheduled PAS workdays due to work/family schedule conflicts. More work day options would be netting more possible volunteers and more hours put into actually making the trails more sustainable. I do understand workdays in DSRF and Pisgah have to work with the work leaders schedules. Unless things have changed I know USFS has placed restrictions on the number of approved trail work leaders, but more with different schedules could be a step in the right direction anyway.

    Maybe even a way to work with the upcoming Transylvania County Schools MTB club, wouldn't it be cool to be able to get our youth involved in the trail maintenance too.

    At least that's my .02. However wrong or right it is.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattnmtns View Post
    Are we confusing two different things? What Sassy or bolded was maybe out of context. I am assuming he want to know what it would take to work with a PAS trail leader. If that is the case it is all he should have to do is submit his name and email here:
    Pisgah Area SORBA » Add me to the Trail Crew list

    Now if he wants work on the trails outside of the agreement with PAS and the FS, yes that is a whole other can of worms.

    Or maybe I am confused and he is asking what is required to propose trailwork with the FS, for that I will defer to the crew leaders.

    Yes, I would help out with the BM trail work this spring. Selfishly I would ask for late March or Early April as work will likely have me away end of February and early March.
    I was asking about what it would take to work with a trail leader so that Snototter would post the link that you did.I'm assuming the "Sassy" comment was referring to me? Am I correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    I'm assuming the "Sassy" comment was referring to me? Am I correct?
    Correct, Sassy as in Sasquatch. It was in jest, hopefully it didn't offend. If it did, lighten up Francis.

    Cheers
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitrousjunky View Post
    Maybe even a way to work with the upcoming Transylvania County Schools MTB club, wouldn't it be cool to be able to get our youth involved in the trail maintenance too.
    Good idea, another idea would maybe try to get local Boy Scouts involved. I know they are often looking for community service to do. I saw a video on youtube where a bunch of scouts helped build some of the trails in WV. I suspect though allowing minors to volunteer isn't part of the agreement between PAS and the FS. It would still be a good idea.

    I have said this before, and I will say it again. I think part of the low turn out is not good advertising. I look at other area groups that rely heavily on volunteerism and they seems to have better levels of participation. Look at Greenworks and RiverLink. Not knocking PAS just that there is room for improvement.
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    Now before you start b*tching about it being a PAS day, even though it technically would be since we would use their tools, equipment, etc. know this, you do not have to be a PAS member to work with me or any of the other trail crew leaders. You just need to be on the USFS approved work list. That is super easy to do and I can get you links on how to do it.
    To the best of knowledge, you no longer have to be on the approved work list to volunteer.
    I think it is only to be a crew leader now. I think they changed that about a year ago.

    Or is it that you just don't have to take the class anymore?
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattnmtns View Post
    Correct, Sassy as in Sasquatch. It was in jest, hopefully it didn't offend. If it did, lighten up Francis.

    Cheers
    No worries MasterbaitingMatt just trying to keep up with all the different names.
    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    To the best of knowledge, you no longer have to be on the approved work list to volunteer.
    I think it is only to be a crew leader now. I think they changed that about a year ago.

    Or is it that you just don't have to take the class anymore?
    Great confusion just what we needed to avoid.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post


    Great confusion just what we needed to avoid.
    If that confuses you than I apologize. Not for the post but for your lack of mental ability to comprehend something that shouldn't really be that hard to comprehend.

    Don't worry, if somebody confirms which it is I will break it down and explain it to you very slowly.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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    I signed up for said "email alerts" on upcoming trail work days a month or two ago. Never heard anything back about whether or not I'm invited to dig.

    I would definitely help out on some trail work days in Pisgah, Bent Creek, whatever. I'm a Volunteer Trail Coordinator for our local advocacy group, the Tarheel TrailBlazers, down here in Charlotte. Im moving to E. Asheville soon and I'd like to help out. I can bring a Pulaski, McLeod, and a good attitude.

    As far as my original comments about keeping Land Managers happy, I doubt that the USFS would "shut down" mountain biking in Pisgah. However, I still dont think its best to go out of your way to upset them. Our local club deals with Meck. County Parks and Rec. and its taken years to establish the relationship the club has with them. The mileage in the Charlotte Metro area has doubled/tripled in the last 20 years thanks to mutual cooperation.

    Managing user conflicts(hikers, runners, racers, horses, etc.) is a major concern no matter where you ride. There are also never enough volunteers to help work. If mountain bikers can take the high road and take up the fight to keep trails sustainable AND fun, it makes everyone's life better, and who knows...you might see some hikers show up for trail work days. Doubtful but maybe.

    Also...advertise trail work days more and earlier than the week or two before. Works well for me when time comes to dig...my .02

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    Don't Beatty pisgah

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    In for black mtn trail work day

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    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    No worries MasterbaitingMatt just trying to keep up with all the different names.


    Great confusion just what we needed to avoid.
    It seems that a state if confusion is where you reside. As far as your name reference goes, I'd think you'd be happy with just getting something correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banjopickin View Post
    I signed up for said "email alerts" on upcoming trail work days a month or two ago. Never heard anything back about whether or not I'm invited to dig.
    I know two more people who have had the same results.Does the person responsible for this with PAS still post or read post on here anymore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    It seems that a state if confusion is where you reside. As far as your name reference goes, I'd think you'd be happy with just getting something correct.
    Wow slowpitch it took you a while to respond in this thread,I guess you don't know it's a poll either.
    It really is a shame you can't contribute more than these pathetic jabs.

  100. #100
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch on 1206 View Post
    It really is a shame you can't contribute more than these pathetic jabs.
    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?-user6133_pic34477_1326494238.jpg
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

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