View Poll Results: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain days?

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  • Yes. Ethically speaking, this is a good option for everyone. The trails, and the local economy.

    12 63.16%
  • No, stay the course and suffer the consequences.

    7 36.84%
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  1. #1
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    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    Even if they're not required to, should the local race promoters have alternate routes for when it rains?

    With race promoters adding "Enduro" segments in their races, and with the amount of rainfall we had last year, this is a question of ethics for anyone who stands to make a profit.

  2. #2
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    Re: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    As long as the promoters fix what "they" legitimately mess up, and contribute a little pre-race damage control , then that is good enough for me.

    Rain or no rain they need to be responsible for the excess use and damage from the race.



    If they can't be responsible and fix it first, then the USFS should charge them to fix it. Whom ever fixes it should know what they are doing and have some sort of trail based training.

    I also think that land managers should charge enough to cover their expenses.


    Just my .02.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  3. #3
    zod
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    It's really easier said than done to have an alternate route and/or date. I help put on two races (running races) and both would become logistical nightmares to have a different route ready just in case morning of or to have another date as an alternate. I just wouldn't put on the events personally.

    I think you have to stick to the date and the route.

    Now that being said....what I don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zod View Post

    Now that being said....what I don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.
    truer words may never have been spoken on any mtn bike forum

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by zod View Post
    it's really easier said than done to have an alternate route and/or date. I help put on two races (running races) and both would become logistical nightmares to have a different route ready just in case morning of or to have another date as an alternate. I just wouldn't put on the events personally.

    I think you have to stick to the date and the route.

    Now that being said....what i don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.
    Amen. Funny how people whine about litter & taking care of trails & then on race day they toss their empty goo packs & leave waterbottles, etc. on the trails because it was in the heat of the moment. Pffftt. There is a running club that is allowed to use the local park trails, (our local daily ride), for their races each yr, yet they have yet to clean up after themselves in any way shape or form, i.e. taping off corrected routes from the standard trail layout & leaving them up for riders, hikers to run into. you would think they would have a better "big picture view" from up on their hi-horses.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  6. #6
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    You need a "I don't care" option in your poll.

  7. #7
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    Park raises a very valid point - profit. Promoters choose to endorse rainy day trail riding when they don't call the race. I understand the logistical nightmare of alt. routes, cancelled events, entry fee refunds, etc.

    At the end of the day what's more important? Sunny day trail riding, or rainy day trail racing? I vote for trail riding every time, and I'm a racer boy through and through. I'm not sure there's a good answer here and to be clear I'm saying this on level ground as I'm just as guilty of the next person to ride in less than desirable conditions at times. I do believe that if we only waited until the most ideal trail conditions our riding season would be much shorter than it's advertised. I also believe whole heartedly that there are much more serious issues that face our collective use of the National Forests here than riding bikes in the rain.

    Also want to be clear that I support (with my money that I earn in the bike industry) all the local race promoters. I believe in the sport of mountain bike racing and it's future, so let's not give these guys too much grief. Cheers.
    My one says BRAP!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand View Post
    Amen. Funny how people whine about litter & taking care of trails & then on race day they toss their empty goo packs & leave waterbottles, etc. on the trails because it was in the heat of the moment. Pffftt. There is a running club that is allowed to use the local park trails, (our local daily ride), for their races each yr, yet they have yet to clean up after themselves in any way shape or form, i.e. taping off corrected routes from the standard trail layout & leaving them up for riders, hikers to run into. you would think they would have a better "big picture view" from up on their hi-horses.
    I have a much bigger issue w/ the piles and piles of litter I've seen left by less than desirable NF users than the stray GU wrapper. Intentional littering versus unintentional littering and I choose to believe that the majority of Pisgah mountain bikers probably have unintentionally littered once or twice. I try to remedy my impact by going the extra inch and pick up at least one thing while I'm out riding. I hate seeing wrappers in the woods too, but if you're out there pushing your limits event or not, some times people make errors in judgement. I know I've missed my jersey or pack pocket more than once. Oops!
    My one says BRAP!

  9. #9
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    Re: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    IMHO, If you clean up your mess ( ie damage) by coming to trail work days and stopping to repair your most egregious damage on a ride especially in bad conditions then ride when you can...

    But its about righting wrongs and giving back what you take away from others. There are hundreds ways to give back to the trail system. If you can ride, you can help maintain the systems you love.

    I ride in most conditions, but I pick my routes according to the conditions, fix as I go, mostly ride alone, and I try to pull more than my weight with trail maintenance. I also think that overall WNC has some pretty forgiving trails compared to other areas.

    If a promoter's races cause damage, its on them. As a racer or rider it also falls on you. You don't have to race that day.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  10. #10
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    Simple answer = No

    The degree of difficulty to reroute or reschedule is just not worth it and sometimes just not possible.

    Simple solution would be to set a mandatory maintenance fee based on the number of participants for the event. The fee would be charged regardless of rain or shine and would go directly to the organization that fixes the trails in that area.

    I think the money can be more helpful than expecting the race promoter to clean up after the event.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  11. #11
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    Clean up is mandatory. Trail rehab may or may not be...
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  12. #12
    drunken pirate
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    So, what exactly would these 'alternate' routes be? Take the Swank, for example, what would you make the alternate route?

    What if it starts raining during the event - what do you do then?

    Blaming races for all the problems mountain bikes cause in the forest - user conflicts, litter, tread damage, trail braiding, etc - is very short sighted. Are there negative effects of races? Yes. But the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. Cancelling an event if it rains (which is really the only option, alternate routes wouldn't really work) would be bad.

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Dumb troll thread and we have been through it many times on this board.
    More Trails, Not Less

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    So, what exactly would these 'alternate' routes be? Take the Swank, for example, what would you make the alternate route?

    What if it starts raining during the event - what do you do then?

    Blaming races for all the problems mountain bikes cause in the forest - user conflicts, litter, tread damage, trail braiding, etc - is very short sighted. Are there negative effects of races? Yes. But the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. Cancelling an event if it rains (which is really the only option, alternate routes wouldn't really work) would be bad.

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Dumb troll thread and we have been through it many times on this board.


    Driftwood you are spot on!

  14. #14
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Talk about some thing that should be easy to change, but isn't.

    How hard is it to to attend a workday? It takes an email and a few hours to make the trail closer to how you would want it in PNF.

    MTB'ers still do more serious tread work than other user groups. But we are still falling short of the goal (and I only say this for Driftwood) of more excellent and sustainable trails.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    How hard is it to to attend a workday? It takes an email and a few hours to make the trail closer to how you would want it in PNF.
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  16. #16
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    Races do create a mess and cleaning up after should be part of the deal. If all races were planned on trails capable of handling any weather condition, the issue of trail damage would be less significant. However, especially with larger events, the UCI specifications for courses can make that hard. Demanding cloverleaf courses of set lengths and lap times can put races on terrain less suitable and durable than ideal.

    While our local experience is that racer-types do zero trailwork, at least there can be some race course trimming prior to events. It doesn't make up for watching all the spandex riding past trailcare sessions though IMO. Just thinking back, I cannot remember one spandex clad rider ever helping out with trailcare here.

    I think buying Lycra and racing must make people allergic to volunteering. I know, I know, they are all too busy getting in those 300km of training rides per week and have no spare time. It's OK, we try to get out of their way so as not to inconvenience their strava times and we pick up their goo and CO2 canisters so they don't have to feel guilty. And you know what - it works - they don't have any guilt at all.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    I have heard attending Church is used to describe riding bikes around our area.

    Sundays have always lined up best with the majority folks who actually do come out and help. Seems Sat, which is the day I believe you are leading up to, is reserved for doing something fun, like riding a bike.

    Perhaps we should set up a poll to see which day/time would be best for racers, promoters, and everyday riders to come out and do some trail work? People would be all over the place with the time available to them. But one thing I can guarantee, even if we did trail work on all the days that end in Y, folks would still make up excuses why they can't(or won't) commit time to the trails they so passionately talk about on these forums. Just saying!

  18. #18
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    I say yes, or at least have something in place to repair any damage to the trail. Last spring there was an Xterra race at Hickory Knob (McCormick, SC) that really damaged the trail. The local bike club, Sorba-CSRA, managed to get it fixed with over 300 volunteer hours into it.

    somewhere in the video the racer jokes about he should of used a kayak.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4MS0PRatGE

    SORBA_CSRA forum about it.
    2013 Hickory Knob Trail Conditions | SORBA-CSRA Community Bulletin Board

    The trail was closed for a few months. During that time I ran into two disappointed groups riding FATS that specifically camped at Hickory Knob so they could ride from their campsite besides driving to FATS.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    For the record:

    Our last workday in DuPont was on Nov 23 which was a Sat:
    DuPont Trail workday Nov 23rd

    We have a workday scheduled for this coming Sat:
    Pisgah SORBA workday in DuPont Sat. Jan 25th

    I looked back through 3-4 years of my records and though we do hold workdays on Sundays, we have had a good number on Saturdays, and some on Thur evenings after work. I try and mix up between Sat/Sun to try and capture different folks, and of course it has to fit my schedule and when i am in town.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    I have heard attending Church is used to describe riding bikes around our area.
    I attend church twice on Sundays. Once in a building and once in the woods.
    Also attend all day on Saturdays.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    For the record:

    Our last workday in DuPont was on Nov 23 which was a Sat:
    DuPont Trail workday Nov 23rd

    We have a workday scheduled for this coming Sat:
    Pisgah SORBA workday in DuPont Sat. Jan 25th

    I looked back through 3-4 years of my records and though we do hold workdays on Sundays, we have had a good number on Saturdays, and some on Thur evenings after work. I try and mix up between Sat/Sun to try and capture different folks, and of course it has to fit my schedule and when i am in town.
    Yup, I said most. I couldn't make Nov 23rd work day.
    I think there have been a couple others that were cancelled due to weather or some other reason including the camping one that I was going to go to.

    I have volunteered for things in the past but most work days just don't fall at a convenient time. I also carry a saw in the woods (in fact just bought a new sabercut for the sole purpose of keeping with me because it is easier to carry than my folding saw). I know unsanctioned trail work is usually frowned upon but if there is a downed tree in the trail that I can cut I will. I figure if I can't join work days, I can at least cut a tree or two.

    I was also already planning on joining this Saturday.

    However, it was a general statement and not about me. The point was many people can't make the standard days due to other obligations. It is great that you do a Saturday occasionally but it is rare. I do understand though because you and I had this conversation a while back that Saturdays don't always make the best days because the trails are busier.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    I attend church twice on Sundays. Once in a building and once in the woods.
    Also attend all day on Saturdays.
    Church on Vimeo

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    Yup, seen it already and knew what Snototter was referring to when he posted which is why I said I attend twice on Sundays and all day Saturdays.

    (Hint: second time on Sunday and all day Saturday)
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  24. #24
    drunken pirate
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    I don't think the day of the week is why more people don't do trail work. Sure, for some people Sundays are no good. For some Saturdays are no good. Some people can only do weekdays. There is never going to be a perfect day for everyone. There is a lot more going on with the lack of stewardship by mountain bikers than just inconvenient trail work days....

    But back to the topic at hand: I came up with an alternate route for the Swank if it happens to rain at that event. Starting from Cove Creek:

    Right on FR475 >
    Left on FR471 (out and back to Kuykandell CG) >
    Back up to Glouchester Gap
    Straight on FR229 (out and back to the gate at the top) >
    Back down to Glouchester
    FR475 back down to Cove Creek campground

    That is a pretty good rain route. I'm sure a hundred people would love to pay a hundred dollars to ride that.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by plume View Post
    I have a much bigger issue w/ the piles and piles of litter I've seen left by less than desirable NF users than the stray GU wrapper. Intentional littering versus unintentional littering and I choose to believe that the majority of Pisgah mountain bikers probably have unintentionally littered once or twice. I try to remedy my impact by going the extra inch and pick up at least one thing while I'm out riding. I hate seeing wrappers in the woods too, but if you're out there pushing your limits event or not, some times people make errors in judgement. I know I've missed my jersey or pack pocket more than once. Oops!
    The main reason I bought a bigger pack, (yrs ago), was to carry out what other discard/litter in the woods. I don't race at all & have no problem w/races or racing, the problem is w/ promoters IMO. Ultimately it is their responsiblity to "leave no trace" as they have "put the show on". Now wheather or not they "use the riders" to clean up is up to them, (the promoters), either way the buck stops w/them, IMO
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

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