View Poll Results: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain days?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. Ethically speaking, this is a good option for everyone. The trails, and the local economy.

    12 63.16%
  • No, stay the course and suffer the consequences.

    7 36.84%
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 156
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    213

    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    Even if they're not required to, should the local race promoters have alternate routes for when it rains?

    With race promoters adding "Enduro" segments in their races, and with the amount of rainfall we had last year, this is a question of ethics for anyone who stands to make a profit.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 2bfluid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    625

    Re: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    As long as the promoters fix what "they" legitimately mess up, and contribute a little pre-race damage control , then that is good enough for me.

    Rain or no rain they need to be responsible for the excess use and damage from the race.



    If they can't be responsible and fix it first, then the USFS should charge them to fix it. Whom ever fixes it should know what they are doing and have some sort of trail based training.

    I also think that land managers should charge enough to cover their expenses.


    Just my .02.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  3. #3
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,090
    It's really easier said than done to have an alternate route and/or date. I help put on two races (running races) and both would become logistical nightmares to have a different route ready just in case morning of or to have another date as an alternate. I just wouldn't put on the events personally.

    I think you have to stick to the date and the route.

    Now that being said....what I don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.

  4. #4
    Fence guru
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    739
    Quote Originally Posted by zod View Post

    Now that being said....what I don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.
    truer words may never have been spoken on any mtn bike forum

  5. #5
    Some Assembly Required
    Reputation: man w/ one hand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,073
    Quote Originally Posted by zod View Post
    it's really easier said than done to have an alternate route and/or date. I help put on two races (running races) and both would become logistical nightmares to have a different route ready just in case morning of or to have another date as an alternate. I just wouldn't put on the events personally.

    I think you have to stick to the date and the route.

    Now that being said....what i don't want to hear is racers boys whine when people ride when it's wet yet they're fine with it if they paid some entry fee.
    Amen. Funny how people whine about litter & taking care of trails & then on race day they toss their empty goo packs & leave waterbottles, etc. on the trails because it was in the heat of the moment. Pffftt. There is a running club that is allowed to use the local park trails, (our local daily ride), for their races each yr, yet they have yet to clean up after themselves in any way shape or form, i.e. taping off corrected routes from the standard trail layout & leaving them up for riders, hikers to run into. you would think they would have a better "big picture view" from up on their hi-horses.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  6. #6
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    153
    You need a "I don't care" option in your poll.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: plume's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,646
    Park raises a very valid point - profit. Promoters choose to endorse rainy day trail riding when they don't call the race. I understand the logistical nightmare of alt. routes, cancelled events, entry fee refunds, etc.

    At the end of the day what's more important? Sunny day trail riding, or rainy day trail racing? I vote for trail riding every time, and I'm a racer boy through and through. I'm not sure there's a good answer here and to be clear I'm saying this on level ground as I'm just as guilty of the next person to ride in less than desirable conditions at times. I do believe that if we only waited until the most ideal trail conditions our riding season would be much shorter than it's advertised. I also believe whole heartedly that there are much more serious issues that face our collective use of the National Forests here than riding bikes in the rain.

    Also want to be clear that I support (with my money that I earn in the bike industry) all the local race promoters. I believe in the sport of mountain bike racing and it's future, so let's not give these guys too much grief. Cheers.
    My one says BRAP!

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: plume's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,646
    Quote Originally Posted by man w/ one hand View Post
    Amen. Funny how people whine about litter & taking care of trails & then on race day they toss their empty goo packs & leave waterbottles, etc. on the trails because it was in the heat of the moment. Pffftt. There is a running club that is allowed to use the local park trails, (our local daily ride), for their races each yr, yet they have yet to clean up after themselves in any way shape or form, i.e. taping off corrected routes from the standard trail layout & leaving them up for riders, hikers to run into. you would think they would have a better "big picture view" from up on their hi-horses.
    I have a much bigger issue w/ the piles and piles of litter I've seen left by less than desirable NF users than the stray GU wrapper. Intentional littering versus unintentional littering and I choose to believe that the majority of Pisgah mountain bikers probably have unintentionally littered once or twice. I try to remedy my impact by going the extra inch and pick up at least one thing while I'm out riding. I hate seeing wrappers in the woods too, but if you're out there pushing your limits event or not, some times people make errors in judgement. I know I've missed my jersey or pack pocket more than once. Oops!
    My one says BRAP!

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 2bfluid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    625

    Re: Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?

    IMHO, If you clean up your mess ( ie damage) by coming to trail work days and stopping to repair your most egregious damage on a ride especially in bad conditions then ride when you can...

    But its about righting wrongs and giving back what you take away from others. There are hundreds ways to give back to the trail system. If you can ride, you can help maintain the systems you love.

    I ride in most conditions, but I pick my routes according to the conditions, fix as I go, mostly ride alone, and I try to pull more than my weight with trail maintenance. I also think that overall WNC has some pretty forgiving trails compared to other areas.

    If a promoter's races cause damage, its on them. As a racer or rider it also falls on you. You don't have to race that day.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  10. #10
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,956
    Simple answer = No

    The degree of difficulty to reroute or reschedule is just not worth it and sometimes just not possible.

    Simple solution would be to set a mandatory maintenance fee based on the number of participants for the event. The fee would be charged regardless of rain or shine and would go directly to the organization that fixes the trails in that area.

    I think the money can be more helpful than expecting the race promoter to clean up after the event.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 2bfluid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    625
    Clean up is mandatory. Trail rehab may or may not be...
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  12. #12
    drunken pirate
    Reputation: driftwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,414
    So, what exactly would these 'alternate' routes be? Take the Swank, for example, what would you make the alternate route?

    What if it starts raining during the event - what do you do then?

    Blaming races for all the problems mountain bikes cause in the forest - user conflicts, litter, tread damage, trail braiding, etc - is very short sighted. Are there negative effects of races? Yes. But the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. Cancelling an event if it rains (which is really the only option, alternate routes wouldn't really work) would be bad.

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Dumb troll thread and we have been through it many times on this board.
    More Trails, Not Less

    Adventures in Pisgah

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Snototter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    297
    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    So, what exactly would these 'alternate' routes be? Take the Swank, for example, what would you make the alternate route?

    What if it starts raining during the event - what do you do then?

    Blaming races for all the problems mountain bikes cause in the forest - user conflicts, litter, tread damage, trail braiding, etc - is very short sighted. Are there negative effects of races? Yes. But the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. Cancelling an event if it rains (which is really the only option, alternate routes wouldn't really work) would be bad.

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Dumb troll thread and we have been through it many times on this board.


    Driftwood you are spot on!

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 2bfluid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    625

    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post

    Mountain bikers really F*@k up trails and do very, very little to repair them (tread work). Races are just a reflection of mountain bikers as a whole. It would be very nice if we held ourselves to a higher standard.

    Talk about some thing that should be easy to change, but isn't.

    How hard is it to to attend a workday? It takes an email and a few hours to make the trail closer to how you would want it in PNF.

    MTB'ers still do more serious tread work than other user groups. But we are still falling short of the goal (and I only say this for Driftwood) of more excellent and sustainable trails.
    He/she who works the trails does so in their own image.

    Speed just slows me down...

  15. #15
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,956
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bfluid View Post
    How hard is it to to attend a workday? It takes an email and a few hours to make the trail closer to how you would want it in PNF.
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  16. #16
    Unpredictable
    Reputation: Ridnparadise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,105
    Races do create a mess and cleaning up after should be part of the deal. If all races were planned on trails capable of handling any weather condition, the issue of trail damage would be less significant. However, especially with larger events, the UCI specifications for courses can make that hard. Demanding cloverleaf courses of set lengths and lap times can put races on terrain less suitable and durable than ideal.

    While our local experience is that racer-types do zero trailwork, at least there can be some race course trimming prior to events. It doesn't make up for watching all the spandex riding past trailcare sessions though IMO. Just thinking back, I cannot remember one spandex clad rider ever helping out with trailcare here.

    I think buying Lycra and racing must make people allergic to volunteering. I know, I know, they are all too busy getting in those 300km of training rides per week and have no spare time. It's OK, we try to get out of their way so as not to inconvenience their strava times and we pick up their goo and CO2 canisters so they don't have to feel guilty. And you know what - it works - they don't have any guilt at all.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Snototter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    297
    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    I have heard attending Church is used to describe riding bikes around our area.

    Sundays have always lined up best with the majority folks who actually do come out and help. Seems Sat, which is the day I believe you are leading up to, is reserved for doing something fun, like riding a bike.

    Perhaps we should set up a poll to see which day/time would be best for racers, promoters, and everyday riders to come out and do some trail work? People would be all over the place with the time available to them. But one thing I can guarantee, even if we did trail work on all the days that end in Y, folks would still make up excuses why they can't(or won't) commit time to the trails they so passionately talk about on these forums. Just saying!

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    421
    I say yes, or at least have something in place to repair any damage to the trail. Last spring there was an Xterra race at Hickory Knob (McCormick, SC) that really damaged the trail. The local bike club, Sorba-CSRA, managed to get it fixed with over 300 volunteer hours into it.

    somewhere in the video the racer jokes about he should of used a kayak.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4MS0PRatGE

    SORBA_CSRA forum about it.
    2013 Hickory Knob Trail Conditions | SORBA-CSRA Community Bulletin Board

    The trail was closed for a few months. During that time I ran into two disappointed groups riding FATS that specifically camped at Hickory Knob so they could ride from their campsite besides driving to FATS.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,370
    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    Well considering most trail workdays are Sunday morning when many of us go to church or worse, during the week when most of us are at work, it can be pretty hard.
    For the record:

    Our last workday in DuPont was on Nov 23 which was a Sat:
    DuPont Trail workday Nov 23rd

    We have a workday scheduled for this coming Sat:
    Pisgah SORBA workday in DuPont Sat. Jan 25th

    I looked back through 3-4 years of my records and though we do hold workdays on Sundays, we have had a good number on Saturdays, and some on Thur evenings after work. I try and mix up between Sat/Sun to try and capture different folks, and of course it has to fit my schedule and when i am in town.

  20. #20
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    I have heard attending Church is used to describe riding bikes around our area.
    I attend church twice on Sundays. Once in a building and once in the woods.
    Also attend all day on Saturdays.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  21. #21
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    For the record:

    Our last workday in DuPont was on Nov 23 which was a Sat:
    DuPont Trail workday Nov 23rd

    We have a workday scheduled for this coming Sat:
    Pisgah SORBA workday in DuPont Sat. Jan 25th

    I looked back through 3-4 years of my records and though we do hold workdays on Sundays, we have had a good number on Saturdays, and some on Thur evenings after work. I try and mix up between Sat/Sun to try and capture different folks, and of course it has to fit my schedule and when i am in town.
    Yup, I said most. I couldn't make Nov 23rd work day.
    I think there have been a couple others that were cancelled due to weather or some other reason including the camping one that I was going to go to.

    I have volunteered for things in the past but most work days just don't fall at a convenient time. I also carry a saw in the woods (in fact just bought a new sabercut for the sole purpose of keeping with me because it is easier to carry than my folding saw). I know unsanctioned trail work is usually frowned upon but if there is a downed tree in the trail that I can cut I will. I figure if I can't join work days, I can at least cut a tree or two.

    I was also already planning on joining this Saturday.

    However, it was a general statement and not about me. The point was many people can't make the standard days due to other obligations. It is great that you do a Saturday occasionally but it is rare. I do understand though because you and I had this conversation a while back that Saturdays don't always make the best days because the trails are busier.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,370
    Quote Originally Posted by kjlued View Post
    I attend church twice on Sundays. Once in a building and once in the woods.
    Also attend all day on Saturdays.

  23. #23
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    Yup, seen it already and knew what Snototter was referring to when he posted which is why I said I attend twice on Sundays and all day Saturdays.

    (Hint: second time on Sunday and all day Saturday)
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  24. #24
    drunken pirate
    Reputation: driftwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,414
    I don't think the day of the week is why more people don't do trail work. Sure, for some people Sundays are no good. For some Saturdays are no good. Some people can only do weekdays. There is never going to be a perfect day for everyone. There is a lot more going on with the lack of stewardship by mountain bikers than just inconvenient trail work days....

    But back to the topic at hand: I came up with an alternate route for the Swank if it happens to rain at that event. Starting from Cove Creek:

    Right on FR475 >
    Left on FR471 (out and back to Kuykandell CG) >
    Back up to Glouchester Gap
    Straight on FR229 (out and back to the gate at the top) >
    Back down to Glouchester
    FR475 back down to Cove Creek campground

    That is a pretty good rain route. I'm sure a hundred people would love to pay a hundred dollars to ride that.
    More Trails, Not Less

    Adventures in Pisgah

  25. #25
    Some Assembly Required
    Reputation: man w/ one hand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4,073
    Quote Originally Posted by plume View Post
    I have a much bigger issue w/ the piles and piles of litter I've seen left by less than desirable NF users than the stray GU wrapper. Intentional littering versus unintentional littering and I choose to believe that the majority of Pisgah mountain bikers probably have unintentionally littered once or twice. I try to remedy my impact by going the extra inch and pick up at least one thing while I'm out riding. I hate seeing wrappers in the woods too, but if you're out there pushing your limits event or not, some times people make errors in judgement. I know I've missed my jersey or pack pocket more than once. Oops!
    The main reason I bought a bigger pack, (yrs ago), was to carry out what other discard/litter in the woods. I don't race at all & have no problem w/races or racing, the problem is w/ promoters IMO. Ultimately it is their responsiblity to "leave no trace" as they have "put the show on". Now wheather or not they "use the riders" to clean up is up to them, (the promoters), either way the buck stops w/them, IMO
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    111
    I would be interested in seeing the number of mtb trail users on a given race route and a during a race day before we go blaming the race promoter for damaging the trails. I was not able to make the 2014 new years ride in Pisgah but if my memory serves me correctly i believe there were over 50-60 mtbrs of all kinds riding on new years day. I know there over 25 from the upstate that rode and many of those have not participated in any type of trail work days other than Dupont.

    I agree that racers and race promoters need to be more involved in trail maintenance and sustainability and I think that for the most part the race promoters I know are working with the forestry service on this issue. Hiring trail builders to provide evaluations before and after and correct any damage created.

    As for alternate routes i am not sure how permits would work in order to do alternate routes as from my understanding race routes have to be laid out and submitted and approved by forestry service prior to permitting. Would an alternate route correct anything or just cause more damage to another trail?

  27. #27
    thecentralscrutinizer
    Reputation: mopartodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    2,757
    I don't ride wet trails as a norm, I actually hate riding them wet, but if I've signed up for a race and it happens to rain, I'll be racing. Fortunately, I haven't been in that position yet.

    To answer the OP's question, I think it's not an option to re-route or post-pone an event due to rain...For reasons already stated.
    2015 Kona JTS
    2014 Scott Scale 710
    2014 Giant Anthem 27.5
    2013 DeVinci Leo SL

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    213
    There's nothing dumb, or trolling about this. I don't spend too much time on here, but when I do, it's me, posting under my name, so anything I say is right there. I don't need to hide behind my keyboard or pretend like I don't know you on some high school lunchroom BS.

    A poll like this is not meant to point fingers, or name names or tell you what I think about whoever and how they conduct themselves or their business. That silliness I happily leave to you folks who have something to say, but won't stand behind your own name.

    It would be trolling if I didn't see a need to seriously consider mandating rain dates or re-routes for races in the forest, for everyone involved and for the people who come into the area and put on their own events. Having rain re-routes shows good form, because from any angle running tons of people through the woods in the rain is just a bad idea from inside the bike bubble, and it sure is from outside it.

    I see nothing good about having hundreds of people out there in the rain when it has been raining for weeks or days because what that ultimately does is give us a box to ride in, no matter which promoter is your friend.

    What do you want out of mountain biking? Do you want all of the bike trails to look and ride the same? Is it a scene more than anything to you? Is your passion so meek that about a thousand people have clicked on this poll and not voted?

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mike Brown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,109
    Rain dates or even cancellations are, in my opinion, more realistic than re-routes.


    Park, I did not vote in the poll because I won't participate in any poll on any topic where the questions are written with clear bias. While there is no such thing as a perfect survey, polls are a valid form of seeking public opinion only if the questions cover a broad range of perspectives and are presented in a relatively neutral manner. Re-write the poll with more options and an attempt at neutrality and I'll vote. Using a poll to make a point and/or guilt people into seeing a problem is not an effective way to present an argument (at least not to me).
    Last edited by Mike Brown; 01-21-2014 at 05:45 PM.

  30. #30
    drunken pirate
    Reputation: driftwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,414
    Like Mike says the poll is very poorly written and clearly biased.

    Fascinating topic though. It could make a great editorial or feature story for a local newspaper.
    Last edited by driftwood; 01-22-2014 at 02:36 PM.
    More Trails, Not Less

    Adventures in Pisgah

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    213
    Use your big boy words and explain how it's biased Clay.

  32. #32
    drunken pirate
    Reputation: driftwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,414
    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    Use your big boy words and explain how it's biased Clay.
    Have you read it?

    Granted I realize you don't know anything about writing or polls but even a lay person like yourself might be able to see that the language you used in your poll pushes people to respond a certain way.

    The yes option clearly states that it is the "ethical" option that is "good for everyone". You even manage to include the local economy in the list of things the yes option is good for.

    The no option, based on the language you use, is clearly the poor choice. Pick No and everyone and everything suffers the consequences.

    Dumb troll thread.
    More Trails, Not Less

    Adventures in Pisgah

  33. #33
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,956
    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    Use your big boy words and explain how it's biased Clay.
    So why do you go after Clay for agreeing with Mike?
    Why didn't you go after Mike instead since he was the one who said it?

    Anyways, I agree with Mike and Clay about the poll being biased but please don't make me use my big boy words to explain it.

    Also, it is an old and over discussed topic but I think that was already said too.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  34. #34
    thecentralscrutinizer
    Reputation: mopartodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    2,757
    Quote Originally Posted by driftwood View Post
    Have you read it?

    Granted I realize you don't know anything about writing or polls but even a lay person like yourself might be able to see that the language you used in your poll pushes people to respond a certain way.

    The yes option clearly states that it is the "ethical" option that is "good for everyone". You even manage to include the local economy in the list of things the yes option is good for.

    The no option, based on the language you use, is clearly the poor choice. Pick No and everyone and everything suffers the consequences.

    Dumb troll thread.
    Exactly.

    I figured the entertainment value of this thread was going to be better than it has been though.

    It has always been a good battle between the Hairy Trail Princesses vs The Racer Boys. lol

    Must be all the holiday fat and lack of exercise that is making everyone lazy.
    2015 Kona JTS
    2014 Scott Scale 710
    2014 Giant Anthem 27.5
    2013 DeVinci Leo SL

  35. #35
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by mopartodd View Post
    Exactly.

    I figured the entertainment value of this thread was going to be better than it has been though.

    It has always been a good battle between the Hairy Trail Princesses vs The Racer Boys. lol

    Must be all the holiday fat and lack of exercise that is making everyone lazy.
    And yet look who voted

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,370

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Snototter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    297

    Pssst, who cares what happens in Ohio…… we are talking about Pisgah, that magical place where trails get repaired all by themselves.

  38. #38
    thecentralscrutinizer
    Reputation: mopartodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    2,757
    Quote Originally Posted by Snototter View Post
    Pssst, who cares what happens in Ohio…… we are talking about Pisgah, that magical place where trails get repaired all by themselves.
    See, problem solved!

    lol
    2015 Kona JTS
    2014 Scott Scale 710
    2014 Giant Anthem 27.5
    2013 DeVinci Leo SL

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Sideways's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    173
    rain happens. trails either self destruct or not. bikes have nothing to do with it. proper layout is key. bad layout results in this, which is btw a barely used hiking only trail on private land:

    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?-ruttedtrail.jpg
    -Marshall Hance
    EndlessBikeCo.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,370
    Sideways,

    You are correct that poor design and water based erosion cause the most damage. Stating "bikes have nothing to do with it" is completely wrong. Bikes and all users have an impact on trails. Our impact goes up when trails are wet. Have you never seen bike tracks in wet soils? Have you not watched one of those videos showing bikes roosting and displacing soil by slinging around a turn?
    You are correct that hikers also have impacts.

  41. #41
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Sideways View Post

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ruttedtrail.jpg 
Views:	71 
Size:	167.3 KB 
ID:	865100
    I see a straight steep trail with no run off.
    Aka poorly designed.

    Also, barely used?
    Maybe not high traffic but uses enough that you can tell everyone is riding/walking up the right side instead of using the actual trail.

    All in all, poor example to use in order to try and prove a point.
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,399
    Sounds like a bait post from the Wilderness Coalition. Most responsible promoters assume it will rain when creating a course.

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,370
    I had not noticed the wear pattern to the right, good point. Def signs that this trail is getting used by someone in some form of travel. The fact that the gully is not just full of leaves also tells us of some use patterns.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Sideways's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    173
    consider Ingles Field Gap, it's use, it's grade, and it's condition. How many hundreds of users on on it daily, regardless of weather? That's a well used trail, and as far as I can tell, very little has changed other than the number of users on it in the 12 years I've ridden it. Tracks on a wet trail are not a problem! They don't cause or escalate tread erosion. The soil remains on the tread. It's the trail that causes the problem, not users. and definitely not a single day of (maybe) heavier than average use!
    -Marshall Hance
    EndlessBikeCo.

  45. #45
    Rogue Exterminator
    Reputation: kjlued's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,956
    Name:  1337398940794_9559135.png
Views: 151
Size:  31.9 KB
    Just stick it in granny and start grinding.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Snototter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    297
    Should race promoters have an alternate route for rain?-image-14.jpgShould race promoters have an alternate route for rain?-image-13.jpg

    How does this section of trail repair itself?



    Agree proper lay out is critical but considering most of our trails are not designed for mountain biking or running or hiking then that makes maintenance that much more important. We are not going to cut all new trails so we can safely ride when conditions would say stay home. People are going to use them and then let others worry about fixing them.

    A few weeks ago,during a crew leader meeting with the USFS, I had someone look right at me and said "those mountain bike races are responsible for the destruction of upper Black." Fortunately the forest service representative chimed in and said " no it is all mountain bikers on that section of trail not just racers". We have a public image problem yet we want to b*tch amongst ourselves.

    PS Sideways- I ask you to go walk the gully section on Lower Trace and tell me soil stays on the trail. Yes the trail is the problem but the users sure do accelerate the problem.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,370
    All users have impact, and thinking mtn bikes don't impact trail treads is as dumb as the hikers and trail runners who like to pretend they don't have an impact. Users compact tread is some cases, and also have displacement forces. Horses have the highest impacts, that is the result of weight, PSI due to small surface areas of contact and the walking action of the horse (I call this the physics of propulsion). Mtn bikes compact soils in some places, but hard braking, and turns can result in displaced soil (which is available to be taken away in the next rainstorm). Don't believe me, watch most any modern mtn bike video: Fight for your ride Video - Pinkbike

    Sticking our heads in the sand is just dumb. Recognizing that we do in fact have real impacts and trying to mitigate those impacts through volunteer trail work, better design, better trail maintenance techniques (such as rock armoring) is a much better strategy.
    Last edited by Woodman; 01-27-2014 at 06:55 PM.

  48. #48
    ready to ride
    Reputation: mattnmtns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    837
    Quote Originally Posted by park baker View Post
    Is your passion so meek that about a thousand people have clicked on this poll and not voted?
    A better question is how many of that now almost 2000 have volunteered to do any trail work?

    If we don't do the work no one else will and we will likely lose trails. Races or no races.
    Sent via my heady vibes from the heart of Pisgahstan

  49. #49
    Unpredictable
    Reputation: Ridnparadise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,105
    As this thread rolls it is bringing up a lot of trail building issues. That was not the point the OP was making, but fact is the ultimate question when building a trail is whether it will withstand use. There is nothing worse than trying to make a trail survive increasing use when it was made without forethought (or basic trail design concepts, or raw materials, or care, or...).

    I feel for Snototter because we have a trail that can and has done that here. Most people will say turnpike or elevated tread. We are going to progressively embed gravel in multiple portions the next time it becomes sodden. The aim is to embed 10-15cm into the tread, bit by bit (2-4 sessions of serious tamping) so it hardens into a Roman road made of tiny bits. Our problem site only gets sodden when massive amounts of rain fall over long periods and water moves through subsoil channels and emerges onto or under the trail. Even fencing the trail entrances off failed to stop riders adding to the same mess in Snototter's pics last summer. What we cannot predict is when we will get the chance to do the job as it has been perfect to dry for many months.

    We know there is no stopping the public, so we have to rectify this problem. No-one else will.

    It is true that all user groups have an environmental impact and it is also totally appropriate to ask whether "we" are doing anything to manage our impact. If "we" as a collective do not show an inclination to manage our singletrack environment, races or no races then we are letting ourselves down. After all, it is we who want to be there and are there, so if we let our world turn into an open sewer, that will hardly leave us with enthusiasm or pleasure to feel good about the next piece of our lives.

    So, to summarise: after the next race, weather event or tourist season leaves your local trail system decimated, you will find yourself in one of three groups:

    I don't give enough of a $uck to help - 99.9%
    I was helping with trailcare before and I have more work to do now - 0.05%
    Uncommited - 0.05%

    There is a subgroup of the first option - I need to complain about it online - 99.8%

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    421
    The widening of the trail above is from riders not staying on the trail. I have seen areas, off limits to bikes, just as bad and at times wider caused by hikers and trail runners who avoid a wet section be "creeping" around the edges.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-31-2013, 07:55 PM
  2. Oregon Outback route and race next May
    By eugenemtbing in forum Bikepacking and Bike Expedition
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-13-2013, 04:06 PM
  3. Skyline xc race. Route?
    By chute in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-10-2013, 11:28 AM
  4. An open letter to race promoters...
    By jaytvt in forum Endurance XC Racing
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 02-07-2012, 08:25 PM
  5. 12 hour race - possible rain
    By adamant76 in forum Endurance XC Racing
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11-14-2011, 03:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •