Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 132
  1. #1
    Ride WNC
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    24

    Kitzuma: It's all Gone!

    Kitzuma was one of my favorites (always top 5) that would keep you in check while providing a cyclic single track experience with no intersecting trail interruptions. I rode it this evening and cannot really place all my thoughts into this post but will describe a few. What an irreverent, disgusting, deliberate destruction of a trail I have ever laid eyes on. The trail worker machined every inch of the trail wether or not it needed attention. Trees were cut down that were not in the way! An example of this (and there are many) is where trees were cut just to lay in the way of the right-hand roller-coasters at the bottom. The poor slouch could have pulled some brush into the trail (if he really needed to block the right hand options) but instead cut down trees to have them fall in the way, WTF!

    Then we have the 2 million water berms.... is this meant to rock me to sleep! They are nearly every 8 feet and cover areas that did not have drainage issues! Survey says? We did not conduct one!
    Not to mention cutting roots out and then covering it with dirt. Good for the trees eh! Oh, and smashing all the rock formations.. are we trying to erode the Appalachia even faster?

    Now you say, who is this guy who comments on trail work and did not participate in this flippin mess?. Oh, just a taxpayer hopefully like you. Tell us where to show-up and we will!
    So before you get all up in my grill....
    This guy was paid for his work.... so it is really ok to comment
    Last edited by ec13823; 10-23-2010 at 08:34 AM.

  2. #2
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
    Reputation: kkjellquist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    657
    Surprised it took so long for this post. The only comment I heard recently said "Kitzuma is now paved".

    I was planning on heading over this even to take a look. Sounds awful.

    Who did the work anyway?
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  3. #3
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
    Reputation: kkjellquist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    657
    Found my answer in the original thread;

    Greer Outdoor Services

    "Greer Outdoor Services is a private company categorized under General Contractor, Highway and Street Construction and located in Lenoir, NC. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 88,000 and employs a staff of approximately 1. "

    awesome
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    251
    I rode it Monday. I typed a long rant about it, but "delete" before I hit "post". I guess I decided that rather than venting I wanted to be constructive. Does anyone know where we can voice our opinions on the destruction that took place? Where in the political ladder should complaints be directed? I personally am DISGUSTED by the work which took place, AND by the fact that I paid for it with my taxes.
    Tim

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FlavC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    83
    It's not just mountain bikers who are disgusted. I have runner/hiker friends who are appalled at what was done to this trail. I wanted to vent also, but it's so bad I don't even know where to begin... I'd be interested in that contact info as well

  6. #6
    Drinker w/ Riding Problem
    Reputation: brado1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,329
    Quote Originally Posted by FlavC
    It's not just mountain bikers who are disgusted. I have runner/hiker friends who are appalled at what was done to this trail. I wanted to vent also, but it's so bad I don't even know where to begin... I'd be interested in that contact info as well

    contact the forest service and complain http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/forest_contacts.pdf

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D.F.L.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    Get active or get used to it.

    (sounds mean, but it's true)

  8. #8
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,110
    This is what happens when we borrow more money for China than we know what to do with it. Hope and (trail) Change!!!! Woohoo!!

  9. #9
    cowbellchallenge
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    203
    it has nothing to do with "hope and change", has to do with poor choice of a company that had no idea about trail building.

  10. #10
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,110
    I wasn't really blaming Obama, everyone knows everything is Bush's fault from here on out. Just saying that it has plenty to do with stim-money. Without those funds this work would not have been done. Sure choice of company didn't help but the cheapest bid wins the contract most likely. Unfortunately the welfare of our trails never seems to be high on the importance list of the forest service and that's likely to not change. I'd rather them stay in disrepair if that's going to be the case, at least then they're actually fun to ride.

  11. #11
    Ride WNC
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    24
    Yeah sorry about the rant but I needed to vent a bit before trying to get some sleep! My plan this evening is to research the posted link and perhaps a few other avenues.

    Eric

  12. #12
    H8 H8 H8
    Reputation: Broussard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    I wasn't really blaming Obama, everyone knows everything is Bush's fault from here on out. Just saying that it has plenty to do with stim-money. Without those funds this work would not have been done. Sure choice of company didn't help but the cheapest bid wins the contract most likely. Unfortunately the welfare of our trails never seems to be high on the importance list of the forest service and that's likely to not change. I'd rather them stay in disrepair if that's going to be the case, at least then they're actually fun to ride.


    Come on dude. The FS misused the money. Drop the political BS. Blame the people
    who WASTED the money, not the people who PROVIDED it.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  13. #13
    Trail Liberator
    Reputation: tcstoned's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    189
    Go out and make some trail refinements!

  14. #14
    Big Mac
    Reputation: mbmb65's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    I wasn't really blaming Obama, everyone knows everything is Bush's fault from here on out. Just saying that it has plenty to do with stim-money. Without those funds this work would not have been done. Sure choice of company didn't help but the cheapest bid wins the contract most likely. Unfortunately the welfare of our trails never seems to be high on the importance list of the forest service and that's likely to not change. I'd rather them stay in disrepair if that's going to be the case, at least then they're actually fun to ride.
    Possibly the most misguided nonsense thus far. Nice job of trying to take this in the wrong direction.

  15. #15
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard
    Come on dude. The FS misused the money. Drop the political BS. Blame the people
    who WASTED the money, not the people who PROVIDED it.
    Wasn't really a political swipe (maybe a bad joke). Just stating that the influx of money is likely to be a bad thing for the trails (if you like technical trail). Also if in hiring contractors the FS chose people who did not have a long standing background in trail work (due to lower bids) and then also did not oversee the project then yes I consider that misuse. If they did oversee the project and the trail is as described then I don't know what to think. Not to say Kitsuma did not need A LITTLE work but if it was plowed, come on not good. So I do blame the FS more than the contractor unless there were guidelines set that the contractor was supposed to follow and overstepped. Still I would hope the FS would have been on-site as some point during the process.

  16. #16
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
    Reputation: kkjellquist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    657
    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    So I do blame the FS more than the contractor unless there were guidelines set that the contractor was supposed to follow and overstepped. Still I would hope the FS would have been on-site as some point during the process.
    Keep digging....

    1. This has nothing to do with politics. Just stop it.

    2. This is the contractor's fault. There is a description of the work to be followed, but clearly this contractor's interpretation was ridiculous. You can't tell me, if he had won, Woody and Trail Dynamics would have destroyed the nature of the trail.

    3. The money to maintain trails is NOT a bad thing. Most trails will be better off in the long run....yes, even Squirrel which does need significant work.
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: litespeedchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,093
    The people who PROVIDED it?

    That would be me. And you.

  18. #18
    H8 H8 H8
    Reputation: Broussard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by litespeedchick
    The people who PROVIDED it?

    That would be me. And you.

    Yeah, I know. But would the hilljack from Greer have used his bulldozer more tenderly
    if the money had come from private donations instead of "Teh Stimululz" ?

    I'm thinking "no" ?

    Which is why my position is that we need to be discussing how we can influence the
    FS to use money more wisely.

    Where the money came from is a topic for the political boards.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    151
    It seems like the problem lies in the lack of definition and/or design that takes place on these trail projects. The project is defined too loosley. In other words, the RFP is too subjective and open to interpretation because there are no design drawings provided to him so the low bidder has too much latitude to design/build (if you will). A suggestion would be that the FS conduct input sessions with user groups prior to writing the rfp, then as part of the rfp, provide an actual design to the contractor. Thats the way we do it in the building construction industry.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 4000psi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    776
    Stimulis money did what it was supposed to do. It funded a project to get people/ in this case person, work and put money back into the economy. Mandating lowest bidder work also keeps people in business since they have to oversee the work and also pay lawyers when the lowest bidder can't finish/perform the work as specified. It keeps beauracrats covered up in paper and this is work. The quality of work was never really a consideration other than what was spec'd. Now the FS will sue this contractor and not pay him until he fixes it to spec. He will be hiring a lawyer (more jobs in the economy) if he can afford one. Now his suppliers won't get paid and they will have to lein the project (more work for lawyers) and so on and so on. Stimulis money doing what it is supposed to do. Everybody has to get the thought process out of their heads that this is for the greater good of society or the natural resources and understand it is all driven by money getting into the economy spread over the entire US over any project that is deemed "shovel ready." You got to understand that the federal government doesn't give a crap about it's citizens. This should be very obvious with their track record going back many years crossing all party lines. We are here for them not the other way around.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: litespeedchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,093
    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard
    used his bulldozer more tenderly

    i dunno, that topic might need to go to the Women's Lounge...

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    941
    some valid points above, but really, if Blue Ridge Adventures or PAS had hosted a trail day or series of days, only a handful would have shown up to help. It is rare to have enough people show up to a trail work day to make a huge positive dent in trail maintenance.

    If the FS sees masses of MTB'ers showing up at trail days, they might ask us to do the work....just sayin'.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D-Town's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    58
    Any pix? Maybe before and after.
    Nothing but style!

  24. #24
    Bike Dork
    Reputation: sin3kal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    67
    Ride report with pictures from today 10/14/10 Here

  25. #25
    H8 H8 H8
    Reputation: Broussard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by 4000psi
    Stimulis money did what it was supposed to do. It funded a project to get people/ in this case person, work and put money back into the economy. Mandating lowest bidder work also keeps people in business since they have to oversee the work and also pay lawyers when the lowest bidder can't finish/perform the work as specified. It keeps beauracrats covered up in paper and this is work. The quality of work was never really a consideration other than what was spec'd. Now the FS will sue this contractor and not pay him until he fixes it to spec. He will be hiring a lawyer (more jobs in the economy) if he can afford one. Now his suppliers won't get paid and they will have to lein the project (more work for lawyers) and so on and so on. Stimulis money doing what it is supposed to do. Everybody has to get the thought process out of their heads that this is for the greater good of society or the natural resources and understand it is all driven by money getting into the economy spread over the entire US over any project that is deemed "shovel ready." You got to understand that the federal government doesn't give a crap about it's citizens. This should be very obvious with their track record going back many years crossing all party lines. We are here for them not the other way around.
    One of two things happened, maybe both.

    Either the FS wrote a sh^tty specification for the work or the contractor did a sh^tty job.

    Period. Try to argue that this statement is not true. There is sh^tty work on the ground,
    so either it was spec'd sh^tty or done sh^tty. Maybe both.

    Are you really going to sit here and imply that one or both of those facts is the fault of
    stimulus spending and not the fault of bad decisions made by either the FS or the
    contractor?

    In your story of government-mandated woe, the government gets all the blame, while
    the contractor who VIOLATED HIS CONTRACT by low-balling the bid and not doing
    the work as agreed passes without comment? And lawyers suck also. Too.

    So much for personal responsibility.

    I completely agree that the work was probably hastily and sloppily spec'd, the contract
    awarded without adequate reflection, and the work done sub-par. That's why the work
    sucked. Where the money came from doesn't mean sh^t. Ayn Rand could have donated
    the money Herself, and Kitsuma would have STILL sucked if the work was poorly spec'd
    and executed.

    No matter how much some of ya'll want to hate on some Obama and Soshulizm, this
    is NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE.

    Everything that everybody is saying about doing the work themselves, inquiring into the
    work specification process, agitating for increased volunteer efforts, etc makes sense.

    ZOMG TEH FEDERAL GUBMINT KILLED KITSUMA does not make sense. RedState is
    thattaway --------->
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  26. #26
    H8 H8 H8
    Reputation: Broussard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by litespeedchick
    i dunno, that topic might need to go to the Women's Lounge...

    Rowr...
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    151
    If people feel that strongly about it, get out there and do some trail work so other trails will not suffer the same fate.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D.F.L.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    Quote Originally Posted by aircooled
    If people feel that strongly about it, get out there and do some trail work so other trails will not suffer the same fate.
    Ding, Ding, (F'in') Ding!

  29. #29
    XC Champion
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    289
    Quote Originally Posted by sin3kal
    Ride report with pictures from today 10/14/10 Here
    To me, this picture really shows the depth of the shoddy trail work.


  30. #30
    Big Mac
    Reputation: mbmb65's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,915
    Quote Originally Posted by sjanes
    some valid points above, but really, if Blue Ridge Adventures or PAS had hosted a trail day or series of days, only a handful would have shown up to help. It is rare to have enough people show up to a trail work day to make a huge positive dent in trail maintenance.

    If the FS sees masses of MTB'ers showing up at trail days, they might ask us to do the work....just sayin'.
    Given the recent fiasco on Sidehill Connector, I rather doubt that. Sad, but likely true. It seems that PAS has made their bed.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    196
    As someone who has ridden trails for years and years I know that in due time old Mother Nature will
    put her stamp back on this, and other, re-worked trails. Soon enough the flora will close back in,
    the roots and rocks will show, and nice technical sections will develop.
    Enjoy what we have, give back when you can and leave politics out of it.
    Last edited by pisgahrider; 10-15-2010 at 06:12 AM.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 4000psi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    776
    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard
    One of two things happened, maybe both.

    Either the FS wrote a sh^tty specification for the work or the contractor did a sh^tty job.

    Period. Try to argue that this statement is not true. There is sh^tty work on the ground,
    so either it was spec'd sh^tty or done sh^tty. Maybe both.

    Are you really going to sit here and imply that one or both of those facts is the fault of
    stimulus spending and not the fault of bad decisions made by either the FS or the
    contractor?

    In your story of government-mandated woe, the government gets all the blame, while
    the contractor who VIOLATED HIS CONTRACT by low-balling the bid and not doing
    the work as agreed passes without comment? And lawyers suck also. Too.

    So much for personal responsibility.

    I completely agree that the work was probably hastily and sloppily spec'd, the contract
    awarded without adequate reflection, and the work done sub-par. That's why the work
    sucked. Where the money came from doesn't mean sh^t. Ayn Rand could have donated
    the money Herself, and Kitsuma would have STILL sucked if the work was poorly spec'd
    and executed.

    No matter how much some of ya'll want to hate on some Obama and Soshulizm, this
    is NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE.

    Everything that everybody is saying about doing the work themselves, inquiring into the
    work specification process, agitating for increased volunteer efforts, etc makes sense.

    ZOMG TEH FEDERAL GUBMINT KILLED KITSUMA does not make sense. RedState is
    thattaway --------->

    Settle Down Francis!!!

    Not bashing any political party, just stating an often overlooked paradigm that contributes to problems that affect a finished product. The money that is available for improvements of transportation infrastructure was primarily put together to get money back into the economy and quality of the work and cost is secondary. That's all I was stating. This is not a theory of mine. This is the basis for passing this federal policy. I could give a F&%#K about politics and any political party, red/blue, left/right, conservative/liberal/independent/nazi/ tea/natty lite/etc.

    I wonder if the governmental oversight (FOREST SERVICE) of the project has anything to do with the trail sucking. So much for governmental responsibility (FOREST SERVICE) when it comes to oversight. I can't seeem to remember any other time they have fallen short overseeing projects that are financed with federal funds. Can you? i look forward to your response.

  33. #33
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
    Reputation: kkjellquist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    657
    Quote Originally Posted by 4000psi
    Settle Down Francis!!!
    Clearly the big problem here is the tragic and often overlooked mis-quoting of classic American comedies. What are we supposed to tell our children when they discover the line is actually "Lighten up, Francis"? Imagine the look on a young child's face when they discover this tragic gaff!

    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 4000psi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    776
    Quote Originally Posted by kkjellquist
    Clearly the big problem here is the tragic and often overlooked mis-quoting of classic American comedies. What are we supposed to tell our children when they discover the line is actually "Lighten up, Francis"? Imagine the look on a young child's face when they discover this tragic gaff!


    Yeah, but there was no spec or oversight on my post. It wasn't in quotations so our children should know the difference with the education they are getting now. See how I deflected my personal responsibility on this one. I'm a contractor, i'm good at this!

  35. #35
    pronounced may-duh
    Reputation: Maida7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,309
    There is a very good reason for why the government must use competitive bid contracts. It's corruption and favoritism. The competitive bid system has many flaws but the alternative is much much worse. But we could argue this and it really won't get us anywhere.

  36. #36
    Third Degree Hater-Fu
    Reputation: bizutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    561
    I'd like to ask one question. When the work was completed and the contractor said "We're done." Who goes and inspects the work done and cuts the multi-thousand dollar check?

    I'm assuming someone viewed the work and then paid for it. Or do trail contractors (maybe Trail Dynamics, Ben or Tood can answer) get paid and head out without any evidence the work was done?
    I am not a "Role Model"

  37. #37
    Third Degree Hater-Fu
    Reputation: bizutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    561
    Oh, and how much would it cost the Forest Service to remove that god awful abomination of Kudzu???
    I am not a "Role Model"

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2
    Trail Report: Kitsuma-OPEN. enjoy the fall weather and a day not at the compooper. give it some time and it will be a great trail again. nothing that won't grow back, wear, erode and a shovel/garden rake and saw can't fix. some fun features w/ some creativity, depending on how you ride, the margin for error is still huge. enjoy

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    941
    maybe I'll be able to clean the entire trail now

  40. #40
    Third Degree Hater-Fu
    Reputation: bizutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    561
    Quote Originally Posted by sjanes
    maybe I'll be able to clean the entire trail now
    we await your successful bloggage.
    I am not a "Role Model"

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3
    take your complaints to the contracting office. Complaints to them carry much more weight than complaints to local officials, who can scope the work but who do not determine which contractor does the work. If Greer wants to go after any more Federal work, they will send a Past Performance Questionnaire to the Contracting Officer... Any feedback, positive or negative, will be reported. POCs for Kitsuma listed below.

    https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...c8cffacadfe73c

    Primary Point of Contact.:
    Mark L Kamholtz,
    Contract Specialist
    mkamholtz@fs.fed.us
    Phone: 4043472517
    Fax: 4043473597
    Secondary Point of Contact:
    Gary S. Baber,
    Contracting Officer
    gbaber02@fs.fed.us
    Phone: 8282574358

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,019
    This is great news. I've been meaning to take my 70 year old mother on some of my favorite trails. Maybe one day I'll realize my dream of riding Pilot rock with her....

    (BS!)
    I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand. -- Confucius

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    I moved away from Black Mountain a few years ago. Kitzuma was a classic ride, one of the best hands down. I hate to hear it's been sanitized. Seems to be a pattern: for those that travel to Moab, they just sanitized the Notch and rerouted the steep section after the notch. Like Kitzuma, There were no erosion issues, they just wanted to make that section of trail easier for the masses. Walk it if you can't ride it, one day you will be able to ride it, but if we make everything beginner friendly, how will we ever progress?

  44. #44
    Newt Guy
    Reputation: FrostyStruthers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    833
    Quote Originally Posted by kkjellquist
    Keep digging....

    1. This has nothing to do with politics. Just stop it.
    You are blind.

    Yes, steel is most certainly stronger than aluminum EVERY time.
    ~Frosty Struthers

  45. #45
    Newt Guy
    Reputation: FrostyStruthers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    833
    Quote Originally Posted by aircooled
    If people feel that strongly about it, get out there and do some trail work so other trails will not suffer the same fate.
    Non Sequitur.

    Of course "getting out there" has NOTHING to do with the people that hired the fool to do... to do... hmmm... what was he SUPPOSED to do?



    Probably wasn't even clearly defined due to the fact that the trail "work" was secondary to the "spending" of the money.

    100% the greed and power of politics. "Getting out there" just adds to the politics and the problems pertaining to the ego and greed of those involved.
    Yes, steel is most certainly stronger than aluminum EVERY time.
    ~Frosty Struthers

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FlavC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    83
    Quote Originally Posted by slimat99
    ... Walk it if you can't ride it, one day you will be able to ride it, but if we make everything beginner friendly, how will we ever progress?
    I took a beginner (technically speaking) on Kitsuma before the work. They had to walk a lot of it. However, they were looking forward to the challenge of building up their skills and cleaning it some day. They were more upset about the sanitization than I was!

  47. #47
    10001110101
    Reputation: earl06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    364
    Rode the new Kitzuma today. It's not ruined, yet.

    The best way to describe the trail work is amateurish, followed by half-assed.

    The trail has been widened and most of the excess dirt pushed over the downhill side and left loose. In some places the excess dirt was left as an outside curb for some reason. The grade reversals are basically troughs perpendicular to the trail, with no sediment trap. Many of the new cuts have loose dirt and rocks on the uphill side that are already starting to show some erosion. The trail surface was rough graded but never smoothed or packed, very bumpy and lots of places for water to accumulate.

    There seems to be a very large potential for erosion in most of the areas where the work was done. Also, many of the grade reversals direct water to non-natural paths when a natural draw is nearby. No rhyme or reason to any of it, really.

    On a positive note, Kitzuma should recover. Anyone who rode it after the hurricanes back in 2004 saw how rough it was. It's worse than that now, but after the trail gets packed in and all the loose dirt and debris gets washed away, it'll be fine. Just different.

    What irks me is the fact that someone put in time and effort, did a total slacker job and were satisfied enough with it to call it done. Pretty lame.
    "The Ice Age is comin', the Sun's zoomin' in..."

    -The Clash

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TrailZen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    409

    Contract Details Available Online...

    Several of the posts on this thread question the way the work was defined. Contract details are here:

    https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...fa46e798e2712e

    with a series of links appearing along the right-hand side of the page.

    "Exhibit 5" is the work log for the entire trail, and gives foot by foot descriptions of all work to be performed under the contract. Exhibit 5 also names the original inspectors of the trail, their overall description of conditions and justification for the proposed work...

    "Attachment 1, rev..." gives an overview of contract expectations and lists other reference materials for trail standards...

    "Section C thru M..." details the inspection and acceptance process--see page 15 of this doc for specifics...

    So, the work was clearly defined, and the completed work was accepted (and paid for) by the USFS. This thread simply points out how some contractors are able to make their work "dance" through the landscape, while other contractors might be better road builders than trail builders...

    TZ
    Last edited by TrailZen; 10-17-2010 at 07:05 PM.
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  49. #49
    Newt Guy
    Reputation: FrostyStruthers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    833
    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen
    This thread simply points out how some contractors are able to make their work "dance" through the landscape, while other contractors might be better road builders than trail builders...

    TZ
    What this thread points out is the political nature of the job. Sure, the Scope of Work was defined because that is how the person(s) that wrote it got paid. The trail was of NO concern, the money was of top concern. Write the Scope of Work to satisty the feds or whomever the money comes from, pay yourself the majority of that money, hire goons to do the "work" in the Scope of Work and forget about it... you have been paid and that is all that matters.

    It was 100% political.
    Yes, steel is most certainly stronger than aluminum EVERY time.
    ~Frosty Struthers

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    39
    This trail work needs public exposure, not just exposure on MTBR. Write your newspapers and the Forest Service.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    196
    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyStruthers
    Write the Scope of Work to satisty the feds or whomever the money comes from, pay yourself the majority of that money, hire goons to do the "work" in the Scope of Work and forget about it... you have been paid and that is all that matters.
    How do you know that? Can't these just be hard working people like you and me who are doing the best they can? Maybe if the trail builders are approached with constructive criticism (pun intended) instead of some of the diatribes posted herein, they may more willing to accept correct trail building advice from their peers in the industry. All you "trail building experts" should push away from the keyboard, do the bureaucratic USFS dance necessary to become a volunteer leader and get out there and prove it with sweat and toil. Or just stop whining.

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TrailZen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    409

    The Fed provides the SOW and Trail Log...

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyStruthers
    What this thread points out is the political nature of the job. Sure, the Scope of Work was defined because that is how the person(s) that wrote it got paid. The trail was of NO concern, the money was of top concern. Write the Scope of Work to satisty the feds or whomever the money comes from, pay yourself the majority of that money, hire goons to do the "work" in the Scope of Work and forget about it... you have been paid and that is all that matters.

    It was 100% political.
    The Scope of Work and the Trail Log are provided by the Fed, NOT by the contractor... While the Scope of Work is relatively short and mostly refers to other USFS documents, the Trail Log (for the Kitsuma contract) is a 25-page document with contract specifics listed by trail footage... The link that appears in my earlier post is screwed up--try this one and read the attachments:

    https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...fa46e798e2712e

    If the link doesn't work, the info can also be found by Googling "Kitsuma Trail Contract"...

    Like Pisgahrider, I suspect this and other contractors are hard workers (indeed, I met this contractor a couple years ago, and he was bustin' his chops on that job). Not all folks who are presently contracting trail work have the experience and finesse that WNC riders have seen from some of our 'favored' contractors. While we may not like the work done on Kitsuma, that work won't be improved by calling the contractor a thief, a liar, or a profiteer...

    TZ
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  53. #53
    Official Cooler Inspector
    Reputation: M-U-M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,648
    "Not all folks who are presently contracting trail work have the experience and finesse that WNC riders have seen from some of our 'favored' contractors."

    I want to assume that these "folks" are great folks. Woulda/coulda input might not have been compensated, but previous experience proved that local imformation was greatly appreciated.

    Every time I open this thread and look at this pic, I close my eyes and shake my head.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Kitzuma: It's all Gone!-wtf_is-_that.jpg  

    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    196
    Quote Originally Posted by M-U-M
    Every time I open this thread and look at this pic, I close my eyes and shake my head.
    Right????. Every time I see this photo I know that the tech lines will return. I know this spot well and that no light maintenance will ever tame it. Just this winter's season will change this spot and erode it back to it's place that only the true tech Pisgah riders can ride it. Maintenance is a necessary component that assures that our young kids and grand kids can ride this trail years from now. And argue over. RELAX! We have it all! PLEASE, don't argue it all away.

  55. #55
    Official Cooler Inspector
    Reputation: M-U-M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,648
    Sweetie, I am seeing a badly placed water-bar that is going to rot. I am the number one proponent for "the tech lines will return". Hickory/Ingles in BC are good examples. BTDT.
    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    196
    Those are Locust, they will be washed away long before they rot. Bent Creek is fun for sure, but it is not tech by anyone who hits it hard. From what I here you have earned your illusionist views, but I like the truth of a hard ass ride.

  57. #57
    Official Cooler Inspector
    Reputation: M-U-M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,648
    "From what I here (hear) you have earned your illusionist views, but I like the truth of a hard ass ride"

    Call me when you're 57. We'll hang out on the deck and reminisce.

    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  58. #58
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
    Reputation: kkjellquist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    657
    Quote Originally Posted by earl06
    What irks me is the fact that someone put in time and effort, did a total slacker job and were satisfied enough with it to call it done. Pretty lame.
    That's what happens when you have one last contract/job to complete before you retire. Do the work quickly, collect your check, get out.
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  59. #59
    Third Degree Hater-Fu
    Reputation: bizutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    561
    I'm going to ride it this week. Considering it's my favorite trail because of the # of miles of pure, narrow tech desecnding you get for the effortless climb, I'm going to be it's harshest critic.

    On a positive note, I got to ride a piece of Dupont this weekend and climbed up something, maybe Cedar Mtn, and noticed how the trail contractor did this neat thing of zig zagging back and forth across the old fire road and intentionally dropping off the outside edge of the road then back up and across. Really lengthened it but didn't decrease speed (I'm a fan of).

    I
    I am not a "Role Model"

  60. #60
    10001110101
    Reputation: earl06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    364
    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen

    Like Pisgahrider, I suspect this and other contractors are hard workers (indeed, I met this contractor a couple years ago, and he was bustin' his chops on that job). Not all folks who are presently contracting trail work have the experience and finesse that WNC riders have seen from some of our 'favored' contractors. While we may not like the work done on Kitsuma, that work won't be improved by calling the contractor a thief, a liar, or a profiteer...

    TZ
    How about fraud?

    I'm not criticizing this guy because the trail isn't pretty enough or doesn't have sweet kickers in all the right places, I'm criticizing this guy because he did a half-assed job. I don't care how hard he worked, that is completely irrelevant. He was contracted to do trail improvements and did them incompetently.

    If I am contracted to build a house for someone, I can't tell them, "I can't figure out the rafters on that roof so we'll have to leave it off." Or, "I ran out of money so you'll have to make do with plywood floors." In the real world, when you win a bid, you are obligated to complete the job correctly. Whether you have the money or skills to do so is your problem. If this had been a contract with a private party, the guy would be heading to court.
    "The Ice Age is comin', the Sun's zoomin' in..."

    -The Clash

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    8
    What a tragedy.

    Take a beautiful, tight, technically challenging single track and pave it. That's what it feels like. Except for a paved trail wouldn't have a deep, narrow rutt (just the size to get your front wheel stuck in) every 15 ft.

    When we were riding Kitsuma 2 weeks ago, we ran in to the trail builder (and I use the term loosely). We asked why the super deep water run off rutts so frequently, and told them they were not at all conducive to biking. His comment was "they are there to slow you guys down".----Thanks!

    It's just a shame, that the money couldn't have been used to build new trails instead of destroying one of the best trails in our area. Some trails are meant to be technical and challenging and don't need to be paved.

    All the talk of working on Squirrel, is making me a nervous wreck. Please tell me the same guys won't be out there ruining another great trail.

    There, I feel better now.

  62. #62
    What It Be ?
    Reputation: ChrisJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    888
    Can we get a before picture? We had IMBA add some trails up here to a system in Northern Virginia. Quite a few of us locals feel they dumbed down the trail. Most say its better. It doesn't fit the flow of the system. It looks a lot like that picture. I'm hoping ma nature will help it out a lot.

  63. #63
    -G-
    -G- is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    106
    In regards to the photo, is that the hard left switchback early on the descent that was facing severe erosion, and which regularly saw riders cutting the corner and skidding it in order to ride it? Looks like there is a lot of loose dirt now, but it does look like they maybe have turned the corner on an erosion issue. It wasn't hikers' boots that were shorting the inside of that switchback; I hope this wears in well.

    Not sure what those steep fall line drops off the backside of the first peak look like now, but as someone who used to ride that trail often (at one point, I was there sometimes 3x per week), I was always a bit troubled that they seemed to encourage riders to skid their rear tires down the drops, thereby worsening the erosion. Obviously, riders didn't have to skid there (really good riders rolled that thing), but a lot did because they were nervous or still building their skills. I would love to see photos of what they did there. I wonder if they created a sustainable route or if they simply piled on dirt to smooth out the fall line. If it was the latter, I doubt it would last more than a year or two before it looked like before.

    On the first set of switchbacks up to the peak from the parking lot, hikers had shorted the switchbacks to create a fall-line route up most of that. Did they block those routes to feed hikers onto the switchbacks? That would have been one of my priorities...

    Interestingly, the few people I've talked to who has ridden Kitsuma since the trail work said the work wasn't bad and that it cleared up some places where there was unsustainable fall line erosion (to be clear, I have not ridden the post-work trail, as I am out due to injury). Can't wait to ride again, and thank you all for sharing trail details so I can "armchair" while I sit one out.

  64. #64
    Ride WNC
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    24
    Yes, yes that is the point! He is being paid for his work = we get to comment on the crappy result whether or not we put in 100+ hrs of trailwork last yr

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3
    I emailed the Forest Service and got a angry email in response from Ms. Marston at the Grandfather District. The contractor who did the work, Mr Greer, is apparently a retired USFS employee from that office and they did not appreciate criticism of that work. I don't know Mr. Greer, and I don't know the politics at play, but a $115,000 contract for a few weeks of work to someone who is already collecting a USFS pension seems fishy...

    I rode the trail again this morning. It's not as bad as it could be... but many of the eroded sections are still eroded, or were just filled in with loose dirt. The trail was very dusty... which is odd because we have had a fair amount of rain recently. And the way the berms and water bars were build seems like they were trying to make people crash. My wheels hardly left the ground and I bottomed out my 5 inch bike at least half a dozen times. With a little work, some of the berms could be turned into jumps so the trail could flow better, but it's a shame to spend $115,000 to make a trail that needs a substantial amount of work to be decent again. For 10% of that amount they could have gotten a SCA crew in there to clean up the eroded sections without bringing in an excavator. And of course having SORBA out there for a few work days would be free.

    My biggest gripe (aside from the fact that they took out every single jump and drop) is the fact that they made the trail more dangerous to beginners. You can get up so much speed now, and then they throw 4 poorly spaced large berms at you. if you didn't know what you were doing, or if you hit some loose dirt, you could get launched into a tree at 30mph.

    But enough venting. I do think time will heal the trail. I just think that the $115,000 could have been better spent, and it ticks me off that our public servants are not open to feedback on this issue.

  66. #66
    Category Winner
    Reputation: teamdicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,934
    Quote Originally Posted by esoelsch

    My biggest gripe (aside from the fact that they took out every single jump and drop) is the fact that they made the trail more dangerous to beginners. You can get up so much speed now, and then they throw 4 poorly spaced large berms at you. if you didn't know what you were doing, or if you hit some loose dirt, you could get launched into a tree at 30mph.
    I know I shouldn't say it,but a shovel could do wonders...

    Sure, it's not the right thing to do, but...
    WWW.TEAMDICKY.COM

    I get paid 3¢ every time I post on MTBR.

  67. #67
    10001110101
    Reputation: earl06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    364
    Quote Originally Posted by esoelsch
    I emailed the Forest Service and got a angry email in response from Ms. Marston at the Grandfather District. The contractor who did the work, Mr Greer, is apparently a retired USFS employee from that office and they did not appreciate criticism of that work. I don't know Mr. Greer, and I don't know the politics at play, but a $115,000 contract for a few weeks of work to someone who is already collecting a USFS pension seems fishy...
    Just a little bit...

    Ms. Marston can find a short pier and take a long walk and Mr. Greer is a world-class hack.

    For $115k, that trail should be damn near perfect. For chrissakes, that's more than $5 a foot!
    "The Ice Age is comin', the Sun's zoomin' in..."

    -The Clash

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    93
    Just got back from Kitsuma with the family. The first comment from the wife was "its a BVD" (boulevard).

    Was the reasoning to bulldoze the entire trail end to end for ATV access in case of emergencies? Or to make it easy for all level riders?

    Kitsuma would still be fun except for those digouts every 15 feet. Besides killing the flow, they were quite dangerous. We were having the same thoughts as Dicky all the way down...

  69. #69
    Third Degree Hater-Fu
    Reputation: bizutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    561
    Every comment makes me less motivated to go check it out. I think I'll wait unti a hard rain has hit and ride what is left.
    I am not a "Role Model"

  70. #70
    Gabe.....
    Reputation: Smokebikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,182
    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    I know I shouldn't say it,but a shovel could do wonders...

    Sure, it's not the right thing to do, but...
    One at a time......................
    "Roll your own..........." http://smokebikes.com/

  71. #71
    And He was Not
    Reputation: Enoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,626
    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    I know I shouldn't say it,but a shovel could do wonders...

    Sure, it's not the right thing to do, but...

    Not making any suggestions either, but Gerber makes a nice small concealable trail tool/shovel... Should be good to fix some of the small drainage issue

    http://www.nsmb.com/2539-trail-builders-contest/

    The Truth is out there. Here it isThe TRUTH

  72. #72
    cowbellchallenge
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    203
    wow, the trail was so smooth and super fast this past weekend; i thought i was on a paved greenway on a urban city park. with all the new "jumps" and banked turns in place i'll be taking the dh or bmx bike for a while. come on mother nature put the trail back the was it was, well or as close as you can please.
    a few things needed to be fixed, cleared, adjusted on the trail, just a few...

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    941
    Quote Originally Posted by cowbellchallenge
    wow, the trail was so smooth and super fast this past weekend; i thought i was on a paved greenway on a urban city park. with all the new "jumps" and banked turns in place i'll be taking the dh or bmx bike for a while. come on mother nature put the trail back the was it was, well or as close as you can please.
    a few things needed to be fixed, cleared, adjusted on the trail, just a few...
    Yeah!! Just like Fisher Farms!!

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    6

    Connection btw Kitzuma & Tsali?

    I'm new to the area and haven't ridden Kitzuma yet, but from the sound of it, the same type of 'maintenance' is currently taking place on the left loop at Tsali. The smoking gun was the Kubota backhoe parked 4 miles into the trail with half of the loop widened and leveled while the other half was still singletrack. The other familiar sounding link is the same type of ill-placed water run-off bars in the middle of an extended downhill section. Anyone know if it's the same contractor?

  75. #75
    My Ti
    Reputation: Shakenbake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by TrailZen
    Several of the posts on this thread question the way the work was defined. Contract details are here:

    https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...fa46e798e2712e

    with a series of links appearing along the right-hand side of the page.

    "Exhibit 5" is the work log for the entire trail, and gives foot by foot descriptions of all work to be performed under the contract. Exhibit 5 also names the original inspectors of the trail, their overall description of conditions and justification for the proposed work...

    "Attachment 1, rev..." gives an overview of contract expectations and lists other reference materials for trail standards...

    "Section C thru M..." details the inspection and acceptance process--see page 15 of this doc for specifics...

    So, the work was clearly defined, and the completed work was accepted (and paid for) by the USFS. This thread simply points out how some contractors are able to make their work "dance" through the landscape, while other contractors might be better road builders than trail builders...

    TZ
    Looks to me like IMBA or SORBA should be working more closely with the Forest service to amend the class 3 bike trail specifications. If this is how it was written and the inspectors approved the work then the bigger issue is working together for a better common goal. On the flip side, what we see today on Kitsuma is not what we will see a year or two from now. Much like the logging industry in the Northwest, some folks just don't have a long-term view of how the forest will heal itself and the new growth will replace the ugliness of a fresh cut forest, so too shall Kitsuma come back. Being able to clean the trail and develop your skills does not necessarily equate in what is best long term for the trail. The build up of berms from constant mtn bikers attributed to rain water not being able to naturally run off so it ran down the trail creating more exposed roots and rocks. Maybe this is a good thing and only time will tell. As for now, it sounds like one fast ass down hill course and now we need to start clocking how fast someone can make the climb from the parking lot down to the picnic area. Pack that baby down.

    Flamers begin from here:
    Shakenbake

  76. #76
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    477
    Quote Originally Posted by sjanes
    Yeah!! Just like Fisher Farms!!
    Not sure how to interpret that comment but 2 things: It's Fisher Farm NOT Fisher Farms and the new section (that had the big rock garden) opened in April and is vastly different/better than what was ridden for the Cowbell.







  77. #77
    Just Wanna Ride!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,374
    Sucks about the trail. Problem is the company doing the work is probably building to the design documents. Regardless of what we would like to see out there, if he was doing what he was told to do, then you can't fault him. If he built based on the design documents, then there is also no way to force him to make changes to what was installed.

    Sounds like the FS either wasn't clear on what they wanted and the contractor did what he thought was right, or the FS got exactly what they asked for based on the design documents they gave him.

    This is a hard lesson for future projects. If we want future repairs made in a certain way or want to have any control over what is being done to the trails, then we have to be involved in the design decisions up front. The only way to change the end result is to change the design documents that the project based on. That way if the users (FS and IMBA/SORBA) aren't happy with the end result when the contractor says he's 'finished', then they can have them make changes until they are satisfied - but only if there is something in the design documents to fall back on.

    Regardless of what you think of the FS folks, we(IMBA/SORBA/Or Whoever) have to work with them to develop a plan for future work that satisfies the FS needs and gives us what we want in a finished product. If we don't, then we'll be right back here btching about yet another shoddy project.

  78. #78
    Third Degree Hater-Fu
    Reputation: bizutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    561

    My Ride Report

    Got to ride it for the first time after some good rains this week to wash away the grit. It's covered in leaves for the most part, but still very obvious what has been done.

    I rode up trying to not be critical and look for fun lines and just "ride a trail", in a mindset like I was getting a new challenge. Climb up from the lot wasn't too bad, but I DISAGREE with the utter sanitization of the turns. Having a nice little berm on the outside helped you whip around...but why gut the ground where a root is?

    Most of the climbing was fine, but felt STEEPER than before.

    On the way down is when you really start to notice over the span of FOUR miles what people are complaining about. I'll lay it out in list form:

    1. Soft, eroded edge - replaced by a softer steeper, gutted edge with no fauna?
    2. RAISED TRAILBED on top of a RIDGELINE SPINE???
    3. Waterbars the length of what has always been a BONE DRY ridgeline for easily more than a mile!
    4. A narrower trail than before in all the left hand sections! How???
    5. Re-worked right hander that was re-worked years ago and has been fantastic since.
    6. BERMS in many places for no reason
    7. Excessive ruts in succession over long, long periods of trail
    8. No attempt at the switchbacks to ensure anything grows back to hold the dirt
    9. 4 wheeler tracks the length of the trail
    10. Soft uphill shoulder already has slid down into what was the intended trail bed after the rain
    11. Plowing of SOLID GROUND!!! They plowed brick hard, twenty year old dirt with no signs of erosion. This took place the length of the trail.
    12. A more dangerous, less safe trail overall

    It was all just very poorly done. Alot of the edge will wash away because of their "build" now.

    I expect by spring you may see a few sections wash away that hadn't before when the freeze/thaw pushes their unfinished uphill and downhill edges.

    Good news...fat people have rubber coated benches on the pavement and you still get to enjoy a good 5 acres of beautiful wilted kudzu under a flag.
    I am not a "Role Model"

  79. #79
    Third Degree Hater-Fu
    Reputation: bizutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    561
    Quote Originally Posted by sthrnfat
    Sucks about the trail. Problem is the company doing the work is probably building to the design documents. Regardless of what we would like to see out there, if he was doing what he was told to do, then you can't fault him. If he built based on the design documents, then there is also no way to force him to make changes to what was installed.

    Sounds like the FS either wasn't clear on what they wanted and the contractor did what he thought was right, or the FS got exactly what they asked for based on the design documents they gave him.

    .
    Nope. Not the case at all. If you'll just go ride it and about a mile down the back side after your 15th or so "What the..." moment, and you're headed for your 40 to 50 other ones, you'll understand.

    I thought I understood by everyone's descriptions but words and pictures cannot describe it. You have to go see it to understand the absolute senselessness of it.
    Last edited by bizutch; 11-03-2010 at 08:36 AM.
    I am not a "Role Model"

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D.F.L.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    Isn't Heartbreak next?

  81. #81
    pronounced may-duh
    Reputation: Maida7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,309
    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    Isn't Heartbreak next?
    Right after they remove all the hike a bike sections from Black Mtn and finish the ski lifts to the top of Farlow

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D.F.L.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    David, you're ruining my efforts to scare people into action...

  83. #83
    Official Cooler Inspector
    Reputation: M-U-M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    2,648
    "....ski lifts to the top of Farlow"

    So, we can assume the roller-blade track was approved? Sweet.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Now you're cast of steel and cast aside. Broken dreams maybe, but you haven't died

  84. #84
    Third Degree Hater-Fu
    Reputation: bizutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    561
    i think the thing that is most upsetting to me is that the contractor had a few good implementations here and there that give you the impression he was taking notes from Woody, et al at some time.

    But then you get on a spine that has no drainage issue (b/c it's the highest point for miles around) and there is a raised section of dirt to "elevate" it.

    Then other sections of spine, again always bone dry and I say that with supreme confidence, that are etched with a half dozen gouged in water bars for the sake of getting paid?

    Then you approach a section you KNOW was giving way on the outside edge. It's here you find the contractor ran the dozer shallow cutting the uphill edge and plowing it to the downhill edge, leaving a soft upside that is already tumbling into the original narrow tread. And the soft downhill edge is NOTHING you would put a tire or foothold in.

    I do realize several things I could take heat for. One is I realize some of the water bars will fill in somewhat. But the majority are just massive troughs made to handle WAY more water than they'll ever see. And the absurd number of troughs in a row, whether on steep pitches or the needless ones on dry ground is offensive.

    I did not do the work or volunteer for it this time. But my taxes paid for it. I've put in sweat on that trail digging, cutting and hacking to maintain it. I stand firm that it's a travesty and injustice, what was done.
    I am not a "Role Model"

  85. #85
    cowbellchallenge
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    203
    "Not sure how to interpret that comment but 2 things: It's Fisher Farm NOT Fisher Farms and the new section (that had the big rock garden) opened in April and is vastly different/better than what was ridden for the Cowbell."
    ssshhhhh,ooohhhh..DA PREMIER CLUB HAS SPOKEN...aaaahhhh,sssshhhhh

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation: h2ojunke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    7
    If you have never shown up for a work day, stop your *****in'. Many of you on this list have, so speak you mind. But to the slackers, if more MTBers put some sweat equity into the trails, tax payer money wouldn't be required. So next time you SORBA, IMBA, OR CLUB post a work day, get in your beamer SUV and show up to get your hands dirty.
    It doesn't matter if the horse is blind, LOAD THE WAGON!

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: plume's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,654
    Quote Originally Posted by h2ojunke
    If you have never shown up for a work day, stop your *****in'. Many of you on this list have, so speak you mind. But to the slackers, if more MTBers put some sweat equity into the trails, tax payer money wouldn't be required. So next time you SORBA, IMBA, OR CLUB post a work day, get in your beamer SUV and show up to get your hands dirty.
    Yes cue the default response to trail work criticism. I think most people aboard have and will continue to "get their hands dirty" - meanwhile SORBA can't touch BC until further notice because they moved some historical markers. I see the FS' view and what not - the thing is that you're going to see less and less trail work days posted because from what I've heard is that the FS is limiting who can legally lift a shovel. Meh. Parts of me miss the "old days" (not here) when it was all about asking for forgiveness after the pirate trail was built.

    I know that doesn't work here but day'um. We just want to ride trails with rocks on them is all.
    My one says BRAP!

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: h2ojunke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    7
    When F.A.T.S. was first built it was super-highway wide, you could have driven a truck down it. but now it is seasoned super sweet single track. After it was built, each trip there just got better and better. I read similar complaints about the recent work at Tsali, and pre-work complaints about the lack of maintenance making the trails unrideable. I was there a few weeks ago and had a blast. So who's right? All I know is you can build/maintain a hell of a lot more trail with equipment, then nature will take its course and sweet ass single track will return.
    It doesn't matter if the horse is blind, LOAD THE WAGON!

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation: plume's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,654
    Valid point! Look at all the epic single track we ride now in Bent Creek and beyond (believe me BC is epic for some people) it's all old road beds converted to a single track trail. Wasn't Laurel Mountain an old rail bed along with Trace Ridge?
    My one says BRAP!

  90. #90
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    195
    I'm heading down to Asheville next week and would like to check out Kitsuma (even with all the changes ).

    Where do you catch the trailhead? Is there a loop I can do? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mike Brown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,162
    pretty easy loop to follow.

    Take the Ridge Crest Exit (66) off I-40. Turn lef6 off exit , then right at stopsign . Follow this road through another stop sign to dead end. Parking should be obvious. Trail starts paralelling highway past dead end. Stay on this trail until you reach a picnic area- about 4 miles of uninterrupted trail. From picnic area, exit, turn left, then first left To gated greenway-type road. Follow this paved path on top of a paved path to another gate, continue straight until stop sign. Turn left. Hey- there's your car!
    About 10 miles total.

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D.F.L.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,840
    Laurel wasn't ever a road. Old roadbeds can be quite good, but the gems around here are all purpose-built singletrack, in my opinion .

    Trace? Blecch. Yes, former road that shows what happens to trail when it's poorly built and not maintained.

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3
    Completely disagree regarding the first comment. Have you taken a look at the SORBA work calendar lately??? If only people who had shown up for a work day in the past 6 months could give commentary, we'd be up Sh#t Creek. I know SORBA is fighting their own battles with the FS, but I'd be willing to bet that more work within the past year by far has been unsanctioned vs. sanctioned.

    Some people fix trails in their free time, some volunteer at soup kitchens, and some sit on their butts and watch teevee. But a crap job is a crap job, and when it is done with taxpayer dollars it should be called out as such.

  94. #94
    Category Winner
    Reputation: teamdicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,934
    wrong spot....
    Last edited by teamdicky; 11-21-2010 at 05:25 PM.
    WWW.TEAMDICKY.COM

    I get paid 3¢ every time I post on MTBR.

  95. #95
    Happy, in the woods.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    251
    Glad you mentioned trace. That trail needs some serious work. Should have gotten it before others but maybe it wasn't "shovel ready". I'm practically a career bureaucrat and I'm still left scratchin my head in amazement some times. I'll reserve judgement for kitzuma untill I can get over there to ride it. Doesn't look good though...
    Abba Zaba, you my only friend....

  96. #96
    Category Winner
    Reputation: teamdicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,934
    Two laps today.

    Plus side: I could ride a 32X19 all the way up the back side. Never could make it before.

    Negative side: Those ditches are a trip. Never, ever seen anything like it. Almost booby trap material. Surprised to see some of them 3/4 of the way into a tight turn. Definitely could see someone busting their ass trying to ride through those awkwardly built... do we call them "water bars?"
    I wonder how long that work will last on those two major DH switchbacks. How long should we expect them to last if they were fixed by professionals? One year? Five years? Twenty years? I haven't see too many people clean either one without skidding around it Glad to see the work done, but that's a mighty large structure built outta dirt and wood. Good news is that when it rots away the old line will be back for those that enjoyed it the way it was.

    I guess time will tell if things get better. Love to see the deep death wheel sucking holes erode away or accidentally get filled in.

    Somewhere in this thread the builder was quoted as saying something about the (insert whatever you wanna call those things on the trail) slowing the riders down. I would say that if you live through the first one he is correct.

    I won't be back till next summer as ORAMM approacheth.
    WWW.TEAMDICKY.COM

    I get paid 3¢ every time I post on MTBR.

  97. #97
    Category Winner
    Reputation: teamdicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,934
    Found some video on youtube...

    Before video:

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Naux7FzEUqk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Naux7FzEUqk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    After video:

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/llebBA7HWAU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/llebBA7HWAU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    Not my videos, just found them while looking for examples.

    You can see the rider in the second video hitting the "deep death wheel sucking holes."
    WWW.TEAMDICKY.COM

    I get paid 3¢ every time I post on MTBR.

  98. #98
    DRB
    DRB is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by esoelsch
    I emailed the Forest Service and got a angry email in response from Ms. Marston at the Grandfather District. The contractor who did the work, Mr Greer, is apparently a retired USFS employee from that office and they did not appreciate criticism of that work. I don't know Mr. Greer, and I don't know the politics at play, but a $115,000 contract for a few weeks of work to someone who is already collecting a USFS pension seems fishy...
    what did they say? I'd love to see the contents of an angry email from the forest service.

  99. #99
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    42
    I rode Kitsuma this weekend as well and have to believe it is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt on that trail. It feels like a trap that someone has set up to injure mtn bikers. The trail builder has done everything possible to invite you to ride faster (widened the trail corridor, covered over every technical rock, root, or ledge drop, widened the switchbacks, and just generally smoothed out the riding surface) AND THEN dug these wheel sucking trenches immediatly followed by dirt mounds. Riding with the fallen leaves I could not even see half of these pits coming and so was repeatedly caught off guard.

    If the trail builder wanted bikers to ride slowly he should have either left the trail as it was or taken the time to develop some more sustainable impedements to speed. But the combination of smooth wide trail and wheel sucking trenches is just wrong.

    On another note, if/when the trenches get filled in some I can't help but think we might see the finishing times at ORAMM continue to come down.

  100. #100
    banned
    Reputation: motobutane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,231
    bikinghawk1 thats a good description of the trail

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •