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  1. #1
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    Kitzuma: It's all Gone!

    Kitzuma was one of my favorites (always top 5) that would keep you in check while providing a cyclic single track experience with no intersecting trail interruptions. I rode it this evening and cannot really place all my thoughts into this post but will describe a few. What an irreverent, disgusting, deliberate destruction of a trail I have ever laid eyes on. The trail worker machined every inch of the trail wether or not it needed attention. Trees were cut down that were not in the way! An example of this (and there are many) is where trees were cut just to lay in the way of the right-hand roller-coasters at the bottom. The poor slouch could have pulled some brush into the trail (if he really needed to block the right hand options) but instead cut down trees to have them fall in the way, WTF!

    Then we have the 2 million water berms.... is this meant to rock me to sleep! They are nearly every 8 feet and cover areas that did not have drainage issues! Survey says? We did not conduct one!
    Not to mention cutting roots out and then covering it with dirt. Good for the trees eh! Oh, and smashing all the rock formations.. are we trying to erode the Appalachia even faster?

    Now you say, who is this guy who comments on trail work and did not participate in this flippin mess?. Oh, just a taxpayer hopefully like you. Tell us where to show-up and we will!
    So before you get all up in my grill....
    This guy was paid for his work.... so it is really ok to comment
    Last edited by ec13823; 10-23-2010 at 09:34 AM.

  2. #2
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
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    Surprised it took so long for this post. The only comment I heard recently said "Kitzuma is now paved".

    I was planning on heading over this even to take a look. Sounds awful.

    Who did the work anyway?
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  3. #3
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
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    Found my answer in the original thread;

    Greer Outdoor Services

    "Greer Outdoor Services is a private company categorized under General Contractor, Highway and Street Construction and located in Lenoir, NC. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 88,000 and employs a staff of approximately 1. "

    awesome
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  4. #4
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    I rode it Monday. I typed a long rant about it, but "delete" before I hit "post". I guess I decided that rather than venting I wanted to be constructive. Does anyone know where we can voice our opinions on the destruction that took place? Where in the political ladder should complaints be directed? I personally am DISGUSTED by the work which took place, AND by the fact that I paid for it with my taxes.
    Tim

  5. #5
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    It's not just mountain bikers who are disgusted. I have runner/hiker friends who are appalled at what was done to this trail. I wanted to vent also, but it's so bad I don't even know where to begin... I'd be interested in that contact info as well

  6. #6
    Drinker w/ Riding Problem
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlavC
    It's not just mountain bikers who are disgusted. I have runner/hiker friends who are appalled at what was done to this trail. I wanted to vent also, but it's so bad I don't even know where to begin... I'd be interested in that contact info as well

    contact the forest service and complain http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/forest_contacts.pdf

  7. #7
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    Get active or get used to it.

    (sounds mean, but it's true)

  8. #8
    zod
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    This is what happens when we borrow more money for China than we know what to do with it. Hope and (trail) Change!!!! Woohoo!!

  9. #9
    cowbellchallenge
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    it has nothing to do with "hope and change", has to do with poor choice of a company that had no idea about trail building.

  10. #10
    zod
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    I wasn't really blaming Obama, everyone knows everything is Bush's fault from here on out. Just saying that it has plenty to do with stim-money. Without those funds this work would not have been done. Sure choice of company didn't help but the cheapest bid wins the contract most likely. Unfortunately the welfare of our trails never seems to be high on the importance list of the forest service and that's likely to not change. I'd rather them stay in disrepair if that's going to be the case, at least then they're actually fun to ride.

  11. #11
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    Yeah sorry about the rant but I needed to vent a bit before trying to get some sleep! My plan this evening is to research the posted link and perhaps a few other avenues.

    Eric

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    I wasn't really blaming Obama, everyone knows everything is Bush's fault from here on out. Just saying that it has plenty to do with stim-money. Without those funds this work would not have been done. Sure choice of company didn't help but the cheapest bid wins the contract most likely. Unfortunately the welfare of our trails never seems to be high on the importance list of the forest service and that's likely to not change. I'd rather them stay in disrepair if that's going to be the case, at least then they're actually fun to ride.


    Come on dude. The FS misused the money. Drop the political BS. Blame the people
    who WASTED the money, not the people who PROVIDED it.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  13. #13
    Trail Liberator
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    Go out and make some trail refinements!

  14. #14
    Big Mac
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    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    I wasn't really blaming Obama, everyone knows everything is Bush's fault from here on out. Just saying that it has plenty to do with stim-money. Without those funds this work would not have been done. Sure choice of company didn't help but the cheapest bid wins the contract most likely. Unfortunately the welfare of our trails never seems to be high on the importance list of the forest service and that's likely to not change. I'd rather them stay in disrepair if that's going to be the case, at least then they're actually fun to ride.
    Possibly the most misguided nonsense thus far. Nice job of trying to take this in the wrong direction.

  15. #15
    zod
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard
    Come on dude. The FS misused the money. Drop the political BS. Blame the people
    who WASTED the money, not the people who PROVIDED it.
    Wasn't really a political swipe (maybe a bad joke). Just stating that the influx of money is likely to be a bad thing for the trails (if you like technical trail). Also if in hiring contractors the FS chose people who did not have a long standing background in trail work (due to lower bids) and then also did not oversee the project then yes I consider that misuse. If they did oversee the project and the trail is as described then I don't know what to think. Not to say Kitsuma did not need A LITTLE work but if it was plowed, come on not good. So I do blame the FS more than the contractor unless there were guidelines set that the contractor was supposed to follow and overstepped. Still I would hope the FS would have been on-site as some point during the process.

  16. #16
    "Ride Lots" Eddy Merckx
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    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    So I do blame the FS more than the contractor unless there were guidelines set that the contractor was supposed to follow and overstepped. Still I would hope the FS would have been on-site as some point during the process.
    Keep digging....

    1. This has nothing to do with politics. Just stop it.

    2. This is the contractor's fault. There is a description of the work to be followed, but clearly this contractor's interpretation was ridiculous. You can't tell me, if he had won, Woody and Trail Dynamics would have destroyed the nature of the trail.

    3. The money to maintain trails is NOT a bad thing. Most trails will be better off in the long run....yes, even Squirrel which does need significant work.
    "Big Gulps huh?...Allllriggghhht....Welp, See ya later!"

  17. #17
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    The people who PROVIDED it?

    That would be me. And you.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by litespeedchick
    The people who PROVIDED it?

    That would be me. And you.

    Yeah, I know. But would the hilljack from Greer have used his bulldozer more tenderly
    if the money had come from private donations instead of "Teh Stimululz" ?

    I'm thinking "no" ?

    Which is why my position is that we need to be discussing how we can influence the
    FS to use money more wisely.

    Where the money came from is a topic for the political boards.
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

  19. #19
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    It seems like the problem lies in the lack of definition and/or design that takes place on these trail projects. The project is defined too loosley. In other words, the RFP is too subjective and open to interpretation because there are no design drawings provided to him so the low bidder has too much latitude to design/build (if you will). A suggestion would be that the FS conduct input sessions with user groups prior to writing the rfp, then as part of the rfp, provide an actual design to the contractor. Thats the way we do it in the building construction industry.

  20. #20
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    Stimulis money did what it was supposed to do. It funded a project to get people/ in this case person, work and put money back into the economy. Mandating lowest bidder work also keeps people in business since they have to oversee the work and also pay lawyers when the lowest bidder can't finish/perform the work as specified. It keeps beauracrats covered up in paper and this is work. The quality of work was never really a consideration other than what was spec'd. Now the FS will sue this contractor and not pay him until he fixes it to spec. He will be hiring a lawyer (more jobs in the economy) if he can afford one. Now his suppliers won't get paid and they will have to lein the project (more work for lawyers) and so on and so on. Stimulis money doing what it is supposed to do. Everybody has to get the thought process out of their heads that this is for the greater good of society or the natural resources and understand it is all driven by money getting into the economy spread over the entire US over any project that is deemed "shovel ready." You got to understand that the federal government doesn't give a crap about it's citizens. This should be very obvious with their track record going back many years crossing all party lines. We are here for them not the other way around.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broussard
    used his bulldozer more tenderly

    i dunno, that topic might need to go to the Women's Lounge...

  22. #22
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    some valid points above, but really, if Blue Ridge Adventures or PAS had hosted a trail day or series of days, only a handful would have shown up to help. It is rare to have enough people show up to a trail work day to make a huge positive dent in trail maintenance.

    If the FS sees masses of MTB'ers showing up at trail days, they might ask us to do the work....just sayin'.

  23. #23
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    Any pix? Maybe before and after.
    Nothing but style!

  24. #24
    Bike Dork
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    Ride report with pictures from today 10/14/10 Here

  25. #25
    H8 H8 H8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4000psi
    Stimulis money did what it was supposed to do. It funded a project to get people/ in this case person, work and put money back into the economy. Mandating lowest bidder work also keeps people in business since they have to oversee the work and also pay lawyers when the lowest bidder can't finish/perform the work as specified. It keeps beauracrats covered up in paper and this is work. The quality of work was never really a consideration other than what was spec'd. Now the FS will sue this contractor and not pay him until he fixes it to spec. He will be hiring a lawyer (more jobs in the economy) if he can afford one. Now his suppliers won't get paid and they will have to lein the project (more work for lawyers) and so on and so on. Stimulis money doing what it is supposed to do. Everybody has to get the thought process out of their heads that this is for the greater good of society or the natural resources and understand it is all driven by money getting into the economy spread over the entire US over any project that is deemed "shovel ready." You got to understand that the federal government doesn't give a crap about it's citizens. This should be very obvious with their track record going back many years crossing all party lines. We are here for them not the other way around.
    One of two things happened, maybe both.

    Either the FS wrote a sh^tty specification for the work or the contractor did a sh^tty job.

    Period. Try to argue that this statement is not true. There is sh^tty work on the ground,
    so either it was spec'd sh^tty or done sh^tty. Maybe both.

    Are you really going to sit here and imply that one or both of those facts is the fault of
    stimulus spending and not the fault of bad decisions made by either the FS or the
    contractor?

    In your story of government-mandated woe, the government gets all the blame, while
    the contractor who VIOLATED HIS CONTRACT by low-balling the bid and not doing
    the work as agreed passes without comment? And lawyers suck also. Too.

    So much for personal responsibility.

    I completely agree that the work was probably hastily and sloppily spec'd, the contract
    awarded without adequate reflection, and the work done sub-par. That's why the work
    sucked. Where the money came from doesn't mean sh^t. Ayn Rand could have donated
    the money Herself, and Kitsuma would have STILL sucked if the work was poorly spec'd
    and executed.

    No matter how much some of ya'll want to hate on some Obama and Soshulizm, this
    is NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE.

    Everything that everybody is saying about doing the work themselves, inquiring into the
    work specification process, agitating for increased volunteer efforts, etc makes sense.

    ZOMG TEH FEDERAL GUBMINT KILLED KITSUMA does not make sense. RedState is
    thattaway --------->
    Yeah, it's strange. But oh well.

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