Results 1 to 38 of 38

Thread: broke my wfo!

  1. #1
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118

    broke my wfo!

    I have a major problem with my wfo and need help!


    Niner Are shut and i am in a race tomorrow, so putting to the forum.

    I run a dorado.
    When the wfo was new it fitted fine, i just spotted the bottom of headtube is rubbing on the fork. There is noticable damage to both.

    Wtf is going on here?
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  2. #2
    JMH
    JMH is offline
    Sugary Exoskeleton
    Reputation: JMH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,663

    Broke? Really?

    Well if Niner is closed for the weekend, I am sure that we can take care of you here on MTBR. Hold the bike a bit closer to the keyboard and we'll get you sorted out.

    Seriously sorry to hear about that, though. I haven't had any problems with the Dorado crown on my WFO so no hot tips to offer.

    Have you removed the headset to inspect? Or maybe the most logical first step would be visiting your local shop that built the bike (possibly incorrectly?) It also seems strange that this didn't show up under normal inspection and cleaning, or alert you with loud noises emanating from your headtube.

  3. #3
    NMBP
    Reputation: gfs69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    1,158

    Need a pic

    A picture or two would speak a thousand words. Or at least ten.

  4. #4
    BMJ
    BMJ is offline
    "42 lbs and climbing!"
    Reputation: BMJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,025
    Ya man, post some close-ups. I'd be curious as to what I might be getting into in the future.

  5. #5
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    Ok now with less wine i have realized i didn't
    give anywhere near enough info.

    I will take apart this evening and photo.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  6. #6
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    OK still not had time to look at it, but the most plausible cause of this is the headset has crumbled.

    So need a new headset, but know little about integrated headsets.

    Firstly, does anyone know what headset came with the frame?
    I have never had any issues with headsets until I used that piece of ****. I even had more reliability using a £10 headset I fitted using a lump hammer (don't ask, but it worked problem free for a year.)

    So would this work?

    http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Gravity%20By...dset_30756.htm

    http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/fsa-g...tem158552.html

    Is there a Hope option for this frame?

    Thanks,

    P
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    639
    The integrated headset is nothing more than two bearings. The ones you posted are low-stack, semi-integrated headset or as CK calls them Inset. They have cups you press into the frame and will not work on the WFO.
    You can get the replacement "headset" from Niner:
    http://store.ninerbikes.com/Frame-Pa...-Taper-Headset
    CaneCreek might have the bearings/caps available as a "headset" package but I don't know the dimensions to find one. You need to take it apart and see exactly what crumbled and why before you purchase anything.

  8. #8
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,939
    Is there anything that you take care of on a bike, that it doesn't fail? Or is Cave Man truly eponymous? Do you even go over and check your bike before every ride? Or stop riding if something doesn't feel right while riding?

    Your sensationlism claiming your WFO broke in the header, really, is flat out wrong.

  9. #9
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    Thanks for the help Nor.
    Randy go blow yourself ;-)

    I have taken the bike apart and had a good look.
    Everything seems fine, apart from the reduced clearance!
    The wear on the frame is only 7-10 o,clock, the wear on the crown is all around.
    I am not worried about wfo, it looks solid in that area. The Dorado is very thin
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  10. #10
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    Are you sure the j e james one wont work it looks the right shape?

    I live on a little island off the coast of france so gettung something shipped from the usa would take forever. Not to mention the niner supplied headset was the worst i have ever used
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  11. #11
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/wWH77g1OkbsnSvMw5FOIzv0dmEyBnn1tsI5ITlyQu2g?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_MLjT2z_hs8M/THuPPewQ3fI/AAAAAAAAAI8/QqYNhjt4dEE/s144/DSC_0011%20%282%29.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/111253749496755024446/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCO_JpIPniYft1wE&feat=embedwe bsite">Drop Box</a></td></tr></table>
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  12. #12
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    You can clearly see from the picture above that there is wear from about 3-6 o'clock on the frame. It is strange that there is only wear on that side. somone who is better at this than me may be able to offer some clue?

    The headset bearing feels fine, so am a bit of a loss as to what caused it.
    I have rebuilt my bike and it is OK, not rubbing but the clearence is almost non existant. There was about 1mm when new.

    The frame's internal structure looks fine (that was my secret worry, which thankfully wasn't realised), and there is no way there was any change in the fork, so the only place the change can be is the headset.

    Does anyone know what the technical name for these type of headsets is, I don't know what to ask for as apparently integrated is an overused term...

    dammmitttt!!!!!
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  13. #13
    NMBP
    Reputation: gfs69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    1,158

  14. #14
    MoJo Moto
    Reputation: motopail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    250
    The uneven wear sounds like somthing bent...

    how fast were you going when this one fell off the rack..?
    Ride Hard or Ride Home Alone.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    639
    The semi-integrated wont work. Notice how a headset with the cups sits, the frame doens't have a groove for the headset. The machining on the frame would have to be identical for that headset to fit and I doubt it is.



    The pic you posted is blurry, I can see some rubbed off area but one can't determine anything from it. I would measure the bearing all the way around with a caliper. Put it into the frame and see if it sits straight and level. Also check your crown race and see if it's bent. Check if the steer tube is bent.

  16. #16
    BMJ
    BMJ is offline
    "42 lbs and climbing!"
    Reputation: BMJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,025
    Stupid question but, was your headset tight enough? It's a snug fit and if it were a little loose, the bearings could shift in the frame enough to allow contact. Just a thought.

  17. #17
    BMJ
    BMJ is offline
    "42 lbs and climbing!"
    Reputation: BMJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,025
    A possible solution might be a thin spacer between the crown and the race to spred things out a little, that is if everything else is straight and true.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,342
    Quote Originally Posted by BMJ
    A possible solution might be a thin spacer between the crown and the race to spred things out a little, that is if everything else is straight and true.
    Maybe the crown race was never pressed down all the way ???

  19. #19
    JMH
    JMH is offline
    Sugary Exoskeleton
    Reputation: JMH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,663
    Quote Originally Posted by BMJ
    Stupid question but, was your headset tight enough? It's a snug fit and if it were a little loose, the bearings could shift in the frame enough to allow contact. Just a thought.
    Bingo. Your fork acts like a lever and it will cause wear at these points, and a loose headset will exacerbate this issue AND wear out the bearings faster. It could also be that a Dorado is just too much leverage for a typical ACB bearing to handle. I haven't noticed any accelerated wear on my similar setup, but I will keep an eye on it.

    On another note, CG I feel for you, but pics of your bikes and their generally atrocious upkeep are a matter of public record here on MTBR... you have to start taking better care of your equipment! Clean it. Inspect it. Love it. Performance bikes require maintenance to keep them in good condition. Letting them fill with water, wrapping them with duct tape and skipping them across the freeway are not good ways to preserve them.

    JMH

  20. #20
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    woot, Drew at Niner to the rescue!
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  21. #21
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    Quote Originally Posted by JMH

    On another note, CG I feel for you, but pics of your bikes and their generally atrocious upkeep are a matter of public record here on MTBR... you have to start taking better care of your equipment! Clean it. Inspect it. Love it. Performance bikes require maintenance to keep them in good condition. Letting them fill with water, wrapping them with duct tape and skipping them across the freeway are not good ways to preserve them.

    JMH
    Hey that was a bit harsh.

    I have been nice to my WFO!
    kept good care of it and not even once have I thrown it out of the back of my car!
    The filling with water thing was weird, hasn't happened again, no idea what caused it.
    Nothing wrong with duck tape either!

    My upkeep is good, just because I don't polish my bikes doesn't mean the important bits are not very well looked after.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    130
    Why don't you just take it to a bike shop and have someone who knows what they're doing take a look at it? Internet forums and telephone conversations will only get you so far. Especially when you don't know the correct terms for what you're looking at. Just take it in.

  23. #23
    JMH
    JMH is offline
    Sugary Exoskeleton
    Reputation: JMH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,663
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Hey that was a bit harsh.

    I have been nice to my WFO!
    kept good care of it and not even once have I thrown it out of the back of my car!
    The filling with water thing was weird, hasn't happened again, no idea what caused it.
    Nothing wrong with duck tape either!

    My upkeep is good, just because I don't polish my bikes doesn't mean the important bits are not very well looked after.
    Fair enough. Have you tracked down the issue? Crown race? Bearing?

    This is what mine looks like...

    JMH
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails broke my wfo!-img_5465.jpg  

    Last edited by JMH; 08-31-2010 at 01:16 PM.

  24. #24
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    Drew is looking into it and suggested a bike shop, I think that is a good idea.
    There could be something very obvious I am missing.

    JMH that picture is interesting,
    Have a look at my fork fitted you will see what I mean.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/11125374...eat=directlink
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  25. #25
    JMH
    JMH is offline
    Sugary Exoskeleton
    Reputation: JMH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,663
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Drew is looking into it and suggested a bike shop, I think that is a good idea.
    There could be something very obvious I am missing.

    JMH that picture is interesting,
    Have a look at my fork fitted you will see what I mean.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/11125374...eat=directlink
    Ah yes. Your lower crown is totally flat on top, mine slopes away from the steerer. You have a good old fashioned compatibility issue there... some sort of thin spacer underneath your crown race would solve it, but that isn't always a viable option if it doesn't allow the race to get a good purchase on the steerer tube. IF you only need to gain yourself a MM or two it will probably work.

    When your Dorado crown was designed, there were no (or very, very few) integrated headsets so they just didn't account for the possibility of a race that actually went inside a headtube a little bit.

    JMH

  26. #26
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    JMH the problem was it was fine for almost a year!

    I don't get what changed
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  27. #27
    JMH
    JMH is offline
    Sugary Exoskeleton
    Reputation: JMH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,663
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    JMH the problem was it was fine for almost a year!

    I don't get what changed
    Well, my guess (and it's just a guess of course) is that it never had enough clearance for riding. It probably felt fine in the workstand but interfered under mild loads since the first day, and it just took a long time (say, almost a year) before it was nasty looking. Perhaps the head tube eventually moved enough fork crown material to cause a lip of metal that closed the extremely small gap and started touching your headtube. Again, this is TOTAL CONJECTURE, but it's not unheard of. Your shop might be able to give you a better answer by examining the bike.

    Look on the bright side... it's likely there's no permanent damage to your frame or your fork, and when you put a 1 or 2mm spacer under the crown race it should be fine! Just fix er up and ride!

    JMH

  28. #28
    Old-newbie
    Reputation: g3rG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    379
    Re: your photos:
    1 - Cool cat!
    2 - What kind of cans are those, and why is surgery necessary?
    3 - I think JMH is correct. I have an 05 Dorado on my bike, with plenty of clearance due to the arched lower crown. I also have an older Dorado hanging on the wall, and the lower crown is flllllllllat! Considering that you put a lot of miles on that bike, the sealed bearing has probably worn a bit. I would try JMH's suggestion of a thin spacer under the crown race, plus a new bearing. I would also look into having a machine shop make a thicker crown race. That race is basically an FSA H6059, aka Orbit Extreme Pro 1.5R. You can get dimensions off their website.
    4 - Please quit taking pictures with a bright light source in the background. Fire up that headlamp of yours and give us some contrast!

    gerG
    ...uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill ...

  29. #29
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    g3rg

    1: thanks, only had her a couple of weeks, ex-stray.

    2: It was one of my other projects.
    I liked the sound of the Grado SR125, but thought they could be improved on and also found them agonising to wear. I got enclosures from some old phillips phones. took the drivers out of the grado and set in place (perfectly lined up with my ear) using polymorph thermoplastic (the white stuff). I also removed the filters front and back to increase airflow. The final stage (not shown) was to add 3x5cm earcups to slightly retard the sound out the back.
    Basically the grado drivers are now lined up well, held FIRMLY in place, with improved airflow and using soundcup from measurments high up the range.
    They are now the best phones I have heard. This mod softened the high ends, greatly increased realism in mid and strenghtened the bass.
    As you can see, all of my mods are aimed at quality first, aesthetics last!

    3: interesting, seeing if I can find a spacer.

    4: sorry camera phone used poorly is all I can offer.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  30. #30
    Old-newbie
    Reputation: g3rG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    379
    Hi CG.

    Good on you for taking in a stray!

    I have done similar projects with the Grados in the past. Getting rid of that short tube of an enclosure that they use can only help the sound. The new setup should be a lot more stable and comfortable. It always amazed that someone would persist with a design that would flip off my head if I looked sideways too quickly.

    Good luck with the spacer/bearing. I am interested to see what the Niner guys have to say.

    Getting more light on your target will help the image quality a lot. Line up with a dark background, use a bike light in one hand with the camera in the other. Watch the image in the viewfinder (screen, whichever) and move the light around to get best contrast with minimal flares. Your shots will improve, even under the influence of vino

    gerG
    ...uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill ...

  31. #31
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    new headset arrived in the post.

    I will compare bearing heights, hopefully this will point to a solution.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: schnee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,800
    You gotta learn how to use the macro feature of your camera, dude.

    All I see are blurry blobs.

    This is how you take a picture of close-up detail:


    See? Sharp!

  33. #33
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    925
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Is there anything that you take care of on a bike, that it doesn't fail? Or is Cave Man truly eponymous? Do you even go over and check your bike before every ride? Or stop riding if something doesn't feel right while riding?

    Your sensationlism claiming your WFO broke in the header, really, is flat out wrong.
    Kind of like you and Rohloff, right?

  34. #34
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    He broke a Rohloff; I thought they were indestructable?!

    Guess he doesn't look after his kit ;-)
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  35. #35
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    OK that took a while, but needed a better workshop than mine (my kitchen) to repair this.

    The new headset bearing seemed to be identicle to the original so no idea what the issue was, but a new headset won't fix it.

    I machined a metal disk which I have placed underneath the crown race holding it up by a mm.

    This is a bit of a bodge, but not sure what else to do!
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  36. #36
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,939
    You could also go the route and get a 2005 Manitou Dorado fork.

  37. #37
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    As I am about to go back to college, I think I will stick with my rather awesome 04 ;-)

    This means I am going to be locking up my bike on a college campus for the next few years.
    Not long before mr Insurance buys me the 2010.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation: schnee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,800
    You should seriously consider a career as a stress tester for bicycle components. I think it's what you were born to do.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •