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  1. #1
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    who's all running a CCDB on their FR?

    Curious as to how you're getting on with it in comparison to other shocks you've tried.

    having run numerous shocks now on FR's and AM's(Roco TSTr, DHX-C, Monarch and CCDB) I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that it's not all it's cracked up to be(at least on this application). Some aspects of it's performance are stunning. Mainly LS Comp and rebound. it pedals great, resists bottoming brilliantly, stays composed and flat through high G corners etc. The issues appear to be around HS events.

    Things got off to a rocky start as the factory settings were miles off. I then started backing off the HSR and things were much improved. At this point i thought I had it sussed and would soon be in shock nirvana. However, I'm now fully backed off on both HSR and HSC and it's still not as plush as any of the other shocks I've tried through the rough stuff.(I'm running over 30% sag by the way).

    Don't get me wrong, I'd still rate it higher than most other shocks for most of the riding I do as i do like a shock to have good control over LS events. I just reckon it shouldn't be as harsh through HS event type stuff. For a shock so adjustable i wouldn't expect to running at the extremes of the adjustment range either.

    any ideas?

  2. #2
    steep fast and loose :)
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    revise the shim stack by getting it tuned by Stendec, get it footprinted and get a grip.
    the FR and the AM are known to need less platform and less mid stroke controllability due to their leverage ratio and Horst Link design. The CCDB still needs a fettle for your Clydesdale bulk.
    All you need is a well tuned RP23. And lose 4 stone too...That'll make the biggest difference

  3. #3
    'All over it!'
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    I have a CCDB and have struggled to find the sweet spot from the moment I had it. I eventually got hold of Malcom from CC and discovered that the shock was over sprung for my 235lb bulk. He sent me a 650lb spring and am hoping that I will be able to wind in a bit of preload where as with the 700lb spring, it was almost loose it had that little preload.

    When I get it up and running, I will then start the process of fettling to find the sweet spot. I will probably be PMing you for your help!

  4. #4
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    cheers for your helpful input Simon but as I've told you before. I've spent longer on a woman than you have on different shocks! Don't despair though I'm sure there's a forum somewhere that would benifit greatly from your knowledge and mechanical abilty...........just can't think of any off the top of my head

  5. #5
    steep fast and loose :)
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    like i've said on the forum before, for my Turner 6 Pack, the CCDB was a necessity.
    For a Helius AM or FR, the CCDB's a total non requirement. The Horst works so well that there's little need for a fully tuneable shock with excellent mid stroke control and adjustability.
    regarding spring weights, then I'd agree 50# less than normal for the CCDB allowing it to sit in the mid-stroke range during normal operation.
    as the linkage design of the FR / AM is so well though out and the leverage ratio is 2.8:1, then an air shock can control the action of the AM / FR no problem. It just depends on how heavy you are and the frequency you hit BIG square edged hits (Alps riders apply here, not UK based trail riders).......

    al imo of course.

    conclusion : the CCDB is wasted on the Helius.
    Last edited by The_Lecht_Rocks; 01-05-2009 at 04:45 AM.

  6. #6
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    cheers Lorni. I'm probably @ 220lb geared up and am running a 550lb spring and over 30% sag. I do have a 500lb spring as well but can't see that helping. I'll maybe give it a whirl just to see. The issue appears to be spiking in the HS circuits. Like there's a lack of oil flow. Do you have an email address for Malcom at CC? I'll maybe drop him a mail to see what he says.

  7. #7
    steep fast and loose :)
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    in return. may i offer my sympathies to the women you've obviously smothered in your time too then dipper

    it's qualitative, not quantitative in my experience.....

  8. #8
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    Simon. I'll give you a shot of the CCDB on your AM. I think you'll be well impressed(with everything other than the HS control!). I'm fairly sure that the pedal strike you've been suffering with the AM/monarch is down to the lack of LS control.

    I don't think looking at leverage ratios at one point of the stroke is relavent. The 6-Pack was also @ 3:1 and a horst but the suspension acted completely different to FR/AM Nicolais. yes the Nics have more midrange support than the Turner but are still prone to blowing through the travel on LS events if there isn't sufficient damping control.

    The CCDB is far from wasted on the Helius. Granted it's not a nessessity like it was on the 6-Pack but it does most things better than the other shocks. I just feel it needs more range of HS adjustment.

  9. #9
    'All over it!'
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    Malcolms address is: malcolm@canecreek.com he is very prompt with his replies and very helpful, he sent me a new spring from the US free of charge, good luck and let us know what he advises.

  10. #10
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    I've emailed Malcom now so will see what he says.

  11. #11
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper
    Curious as to how you're getting on with it in comparison to other shocks you've tried.

    Things got off to a rocky start as the factory settings were miles off. I then started backing off the HSR and things were much improved. At this point i thought I had it sussed and would soon be in shock nirvana. However, I'm now fully backed off on both HSR and HSC and it's still not as plush as any of the other shocks I've tried through the rough stuff.(I'm running over 30% sag by the way).

    any ideas?
    I think you need to run a bit more sag thus maybe a lighter spring.. if its not as supple as you like with all the compression off it would imply you are oversprung. Im running 35% sag and its supple on the little stuff and I use the HSC to control the big hits

  13. #13
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    Cheers Karve. I'd forgotten about those threads.

    are you still running stock HSC and R settings?

  14. #14
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    Nah my setting have changed since then (ill let you know what they are if i get a chance to measure them over the weekend)... im running a bit more rebound as I like a nice slow return on large big hits... and a little more compression.. I jack it up if im doing big drops and loosen it off if im trail riding..

    The criteria I use are

    If I pop a jump do I get to far over the bars - less LSR
    If I pop a jump am I landing too back first - more LSR

    Is the shock bobbing when pedalling - more LSC
    Is the shock not bobbing - Less LSC until it does a little

    Am I getting bucked off on big hits - More HSR
    Is the back end packing up on repeated big hits - Less HSR

    Am I bottoming out on big drops - More HSC
    Is the ride a bit harsh - Less HSC

    If you stick to those I think you get a pretty good ride with the shock

    Sounds like your issues are not fixed my winding out the HSC so the next step to to lighten off the spring. I do think that winding out the HSR will be making it feel harsher than it should however... only adjust one at a time. Try adding some HSR back and see if that helps... should deaden the big hits a little.
    Last edited by Karve; 01-02-2009 at 03:48 PM.

  15. #15
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    Do all of you run over 30% sag or is that only when running a ccdb.
    I havent a nicolai helius fr but i want one,and will very soon and was wondering what shock to run, i was thinking of a dxh coil due to my slender 240lbs riding weight but i coould be intersted in a ccdb.

  16. #16
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    you may be onto something with the HSR. I started with that and ended up with it backed right off. i then did the same with the HSC. Both helped but I never thought to start slowing up the HSR again as maybe the original harshness was mainly from the HSC being too slow and now it's the overly fast HSR. Can't see it being the spring as i'm already over 30% sag but I'll try that also as I should have a 500lb lying about.

    Oddly, on every other shock I've tried I have the opposite issue. I reckon at 220lb geared up I'm on the limit of stock shock tuning. I usually need to run rebound damn near maxed out(closed) to control the heavier spring rates required.

    Norcosam
    The Nicolai FR and AM both allow you to run 30% sag using pretty much any shock while still remaining easy to pedal. The CCDB, being better controlled at low shaft speeds allows greater sag without wallowing and sagging all over the place. I've yet to try more than 35% sag but I know there are those that run 40% with the CCDB. I'm not entirely sure there's a benefit in this but I'll maybe give it a go just to be sure.

  17. #17
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    Give it a go.. that back end pinging back after every big hit will make it feel harsher than if you allow the bike to return with some rebound control! Let us know how it feels.

  18. #18
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    Some interesting stuff, i must say when i had the CCDB on it wasnt tuned for me atall but it did still feel good. I'd love to try it again setup for my weight etc.

    I'm loving the RP23 at the moment which i thought i never would!
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  19. #19
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    Just to add to the mix I was considering a CCDB but instead chose to plump for a BOS S**Toy instead as its equal in quality and can get it service 4 miles from my house @ TFTuned.
    Still waiting for it to arrive at the moment ordered it in November but Olivier Bossard was concentrating on all of the Paris Dakar shocks for the rally cars before Christmas so couldn't get the Bike Shocks made and dyno'd.

    Can't imagine why he would concentrate on dozens of £5,000 pound shocks rather than my little'un........

    Full report will follow when it arrives

  20. #20
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    Nice one Garry, will be interested to hear the results
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  21. #21
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    yea deffo interested to hear how that works out... are you the first to run one of those on a Nic?

  22. #22
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    Smile BOS STOY / TFTuned

    It looks like it! TFTuned will prepare it for the AM and my weight / riding style.

    Can't wait, I have briefly ridden a Stoy which belonged to one of the guys from TFTuned and it was very, very nice although I suppose it should be seeing as the guy is a tuner!

    All of the guys from TFTuned are members of our club the Black Canon Collective, last month I had my TALAS 36's out for the first time and Neil asked me for the bike gave the forks a tweek and gave it back saying 'it was almost there!' a compliment I think.

    Having had a conversation with Tim Flooks over a pint (after a night ride) the consensus was that the CCDB gives 99% of riders more too mess up, whereas what is needed is consumer adjustability within the bounds of good tuning. Not the option to ruin a good thing.

    Dipper it would be good to do a back to back test if we meet up as there is not a single one on the internet! Only people guessing.

    We will see but I think if the truth be known it would take Steve Peat to see the difference!

  23. #23
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    That would be great Garry but I'm an hour north of Aberdeen! I'm sure we could come to some arrangement though!

    I think everyone can benifit from quality/well set up suspension. Not just the pro's. I'm sure Peaty and the likes could ride any old crap faster than us but if your suspensions working for you as opposed to against you it's one less thing for you to worry about.

    It's true you can make shocks like the CCDB feel like a dogs dinner and I certainly wouldn't reccomend one to everyone. However, if you've even got the slightest understanding of what a shock does then it's fairly easy to get it in the right ball park. It's just the last wee bit I'm struggling with.

    I've got plenty customers on flash bikes with fully adjustable suspension that have no idea or no interest in setting them up properly. The most common things I see are no rebound damping on forks, too much or too little sag on shocks and forks that are way to big for the bike. All these cock ups can be done with or without fully adjustable suspension.

    The snag with suspension 'operating within the bounds of good tuning' is that if you're required spring rate is above or below the manufacturers damping range, you're screwed. You then need it custom tuned. This obviously suits Tim Flooks though I'm guessing it was probably custom tuning he was getting at in which case I agree with his sentiments.

  24. #24
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    Malcom from Cane Creek has been in touch. he's sure we can sort it out. Chances are it's just me not having a clue.(my words, not his!) He's offered to send another spring direct from the states so thats the customer service box ticked! I'm feeling happier with the shock already

    Won't get to test his advice for another week yet unfortunately

  25. #25
    steep fast and loose :)
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    TF makes a fair point, but there are riders out here that understand the range of shock tuning required to suit varying terrrain / locations and therefore the wider span needed for adjustment, rather than just a narrow band of range.

  26. #26
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    HI TLR, Dipper, the BOS doesn't have a narrow amount of adjustment it just doesn't let you stray into the completely wrong territory, the shock is set up to one of three brackets for your weight and style then within these there is a good range of adjustment.

    Dipper you were correct in picking me up on the 'bounds of good tuning' I pressume that anybody spending that much money on a shock gets an expert to tune and set it up for them. Then its up to the rider to adjust that base setting for the conditions once they've understood what the adjustments do, I am getting there after a lot of reading and talking to experts at the club.

    To my mind the BOS and CCDB are pretty much equals (both have rallying pedigree) the thing that swayed me was ease of getting the shock serviced.

    p.s. Dipper I've been promising the wife a trip up to Scotland for years

  27. #27
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    Hey Gary,

    As we discussed last year, i may also have a trip down your way later in the year so worst case i could always pinch a shot of dipper CCDB

    Problem is im scared i like it hehehe

    The best thing i've added to my AM thus fas is by far the 823 wheelset, its just transformed the bike imho.

    Derek
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  28. #28
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    Sounds like a plan Derek!

  29. #29
    "Its All Good"
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    Well I love my CCDB on my Helius FR, set and TOTALLY forget......... Yeah Ha
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  30. #30
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    Just a quick update for those that may be interested.

    malcom at CC kindly sent me a 500lb spring free of charge and has been offering some advice. Excellent customer service from CC I have to say.

    I'm now running 40% sag. i can't say I'm overly comfortable with that. It just seems wrong for the type of riding i do. However, it still pedals perfectly and I'm not suffering pedal strike or any unwanted handling issues with the lower BB.

    I'm running the HSR and HSC wide open. whereas I have a lot of LSR and LSC dialled in. It feels very slow and pretty dead in a carpark test but works a treat on the hill. In fact I've started dialling my forks in in a similar fashion as it works so well(currently running 66ATA's)

    The result is a very compliant shock that pedals well, doesn't wallow, bottom out or bounce me off the bike. I'd maybe even go as far as to say, it's stunning!

    It got probably the ultimate test today at Pitfichie DH track. It's a boulder strewn minefield and I was concerned about twatting the pedals/BB off rocks but it handled it no problem. It did feel a bit soft off the final jump(for those that know the track) but it still didn't bottom out

    All in all, i'm very happy with it and feel i understand it a lot better. You do need to rethink your methods when setting this shock up compared to other shocks. Normally i'd set the sag, then dial in damping to control the spring. With the CCDB, you still set the sag(just more of it) but as you're essentially running the shock on the damping circuits and not the spring, you set it up to control the terrain if that makes sense? Maybe not but I know what i mean! maybe Malcom can explain it better.
    Last edited by dipper; 01-23-2009 at 01:43 PM.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper
    With the CCDB, you still set the sag(just more of it) but as you're essentially running the shock on the damping circuits and not the spring, you set it up to control the terrain if that makes sense? Maybe not but I know what i mean! maybe Malcom can explain it better.
    Yep that is exactly it - the dampening does all the work the spring just holds your weight and put the shock shaft in the right position to work.

  32. #32
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    I ordered a CCDB this week, im going to have to learn how to fettle now!! cant wait

  33. #33
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    Hi Dipper

    read your comments with interest. I'd like to know what's the theory behind your new settings....no HSC and R and lots of LSC and R, and why it works?

  34. #34
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    can't say theres a theory as such ryates. just trial and error. I'm by no means where I want to be yet but it is working very well.

    Due to running so deep in the travel(not ideal I don't think. but this may just be psychological!)) I have to run large amounts of LS damping to stop bottoming/wallowing through berms, drops etc. This works very well. pedalling is still XC like and I'm not twatting pedals everywhere which I thought I would.

    On the HS side, things are very smooth and active. Not so much so that I'm being kicked out the seat or bottoing out too easily. However my next plan is to play with these to see if I can get even more control without sacrificing compliance.

    I'm also going to bolt in a Roco TSTR to compare it against.

    Ideally I'd like the shock to work as well as it is at 35% sag as opposed to 40 but as I've said I suspect thats just in my head.

    Not a 5 minute job but it keeps me occupied!

  35. #35
    'All over it!'
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    Not wishing to hijack this thread, but whilst we are on the subject of the CCDB, can anybody give me some step by step instructions on how to replace the spring. I am going to try the 650lb spring sent over from Malcom at CC but haven't a clue how to get the existing 700lb off. Does the shock need to be on the bike or can you do it with it removed?

  36. #36
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    Undo the mounting nearest the front of the bike so the shock dangles free
    The shock is still attached to the rocker
    Loosen of preload collar as far as you can to take the tension off the spring
    Pull the front spring cap off - see how it has a gap in it to allow you to do this
    The spring then just falls off the shock shaft
    Do in reverse to mount it up....

    Super easy bro! takes like 10 mins

  37. #37
    'All over it!'
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    Many thanks Jon, will have a bash when I get home on friday, can you do it with the shock off the bike? Only reason I ask is I don't get my frame back until next tuesday

  38. #38
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    its easier with the shock off mate!

  39. #39
    steep fast and loose :)
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    guys - what %ge sag are you running the CCDB's ?
    I'm at 35% sag on a 500# spring on the AM.
    we're trying the CCDB to see if it alleviates the monstrous pedal strike i'm suffering.
    i'm still keen to try a 57mm stroke RP23 however, back to back with the CCDB.

    TIA

  40. #40
    steep fast and loose :)
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    fwiw, my opinion on the CCDB has now 'adjusted' due to Dipper dialling in some peculiar (HSR / HSC wide open) settings to the CCDB.
    i'm now looking forward to getting the ride height [correctly] sorted, and seeing if the mid stroke can be better controlled

  41. #41
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    peculiar how?

  42. #42
    steep fast and loose :)
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    peculiar as there's NO HSR / HSR circuitry enabled, but LOADS of LSC / LSR (too much LSR I reckon).

  43. #43
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    Hey if it works then dosent really matter
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  44. #44
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    "(too much LSR I reckon)"

    tell me that the next time you case a double and get punted into the trees!

  45. #45
    steep fast and loose :)
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    better on the 500# spring - taughter, better controlled, better SA, need to back of the LSR though...lots and lots of dialling in required - it's a dirty job, etc...........

  46. #46
    steep fast and loose :)
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    just had word from Malcolm at Cane Creek - He recommends a minimum of 30% sag to max 35% sag for riding duties - i'll post further info once he recommends base settings for the AM / FR.
    He suggests shuttled runs, (Alps / Whistler, etc) should utilise 40% sag as 40% is inefficient for trail riding, but not DH'ing.

  47. #47
    steep fast and loose :)
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    spoke to malclm again, at length, regarding shock option and settings - he's an absolute professional - passionate, knowledgeable and helpful........a perfect example of how to support and back up a top end product.

  48. #48
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    so what does he say.....?

  49. #49
    steep fast and loose :)
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    still waiting for base settings, but he's suggested previously to open the HSR/HSC circuitry and dial in LSC to begin with, which is my starting point - once he gets some base settings (still waiting for the AM leverage rates) he'll advise !

  50. #50
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    'HSR/HSC circuitry and dial in LSC to begin with'

    isnt that what I suggested and you called it "peculiar"?

    I'm not just a pretty face you know!

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