who's all running a CCDB on their FR?
Curious as to how you're getting on with it in comparison to other shocks you've tried.
having run numerous shocks now on FR's and AM's(Roco TSTr, DHX-C, Monarch and CCDB) I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that it's not all it's cracked up to be(at least on this application). Some aspects of it's performance are stunning. Mainly LS Comp and rebound. it pedals great, resists bottoming brilliantly, stays composed and flat through high G corners etc. The issues appear to be around HS events.
Things got off to a rocky start as the factory settings were miles off. I then started backing off the HSR and things were much improved. At this point i thought I had it sussed and would soon be in shock nirvana. However, I'm now fully backed off on both HSR and HSC and it's still not as plush as any of the other shocks I've tried through the rough stuff.(I'm running over 30% sag by the way).
Don't get me wrong, I'd still rate it higher than most other shocks for most of the riding I do as i do like a shock to have good control over LS events. I just reckon it shouldn't be as harsh through HS event type stuff. For a shock so adjustable i wouldn't expect to running at the extremes of the adjustment range either.
revise the shim stack by getting it tuned by Stendec, get it footprinted and get a grip.
the FR and the AM are known to need less platform and less mid stroke controllability due to their leverage ratio and Horst Link design. The CCDB still needs a fettle for your Clydesdale bulk.
All you need is a well tuned RP23. And lose 4 stone too...That'll make the biggest difference
'All over it!'
I have a CCDB and have struggled to find the sweet spot from the moment I had it. I eventually got hold of Malcom from CC and discovered that the shock was over sprung for my 235lb bulk. He sent me a 650lb spring and am hoping that I will be able to wind in a bit of preload where as with the 700lb spring, it was almost loose it had that little preload.
When I get it up and running, I will then start the process of fettling to find the sweet spot. I will probably be PMing you for your help!
cheers for your helpful input Simon but as I've told you before. I've spent longer on a woman than you have on different shocks! Don't despair though I'm sure there's a forum somewhere that would benifit greatly from your knowledge and mechanical abilty...........just can't think of any off the top of my head
like i've said on the forum before, for my Turner 6 Pack, the CCDB was a necessity.
For a Helius AM or FR, the CCDB's a total non requirement. The Horst works so well that there's little need for a fully tuneable shock with excellent mid stroke control and adjustability.
regarding spring weights, then I'd agree 50# less than normal for the CCDB allowing it to sit in the mid-stroke range during normal operation.
as the linkage design of the FR / AM is so well though out and the leverage ratio is 2.8:1, then an air shock can control the action of the AM / FR no problem. It just depends on how heavy you are and the frequency you hit BIG square edged hits (Alps riders apply here, not UK based trail riders).......
al imo of course.
conclusion : the CCDB is wasted on the Helius.
Last edited by The_Lecht_Rocks; 01-05-2009 at 05:45 AM.
cheers Lorni. I'm probably @ 220lb geared up and am running a 550lb spring and over 30% sag. I do have a 500lb spring as well but can't see that helping. I'll maybe give it a whirl just to see. The issue appears to be spiking in the HS circuits. Like there's a lack of oil flow. Do you have an email address for Malcom at CC? I'll maybe drop him a mail to see what he says.
in return. may i offer my sympathies to the women you've obviously smothered in your time too then dipper
it's qualitative, not quantitative in my experience.....
Simon. I'll give you a shot of the CCDB on your AM. I think you'll be well impressed(with everything other than the HS control!). I'm fairly sure that the pedal strike you've been suffering with the AM/monarch is down to the lack of LS control.
I don't think looking at leverage ratios at one point of the stroke is relavent. The 6-Pack was also @ 3:1 and a horst but the suspension acted completely different to FR/AM Nicolais. yes the Nics have more midrange support than the Turner but are still prone to blowing through the travel on LS events if there isn't sufficient damping control.
The CCDB is far from wasted on the Helius. Granted it's not a nessessity like it was on the 6-Pack but it does most things better than the other shocks. I just feel it needs more range of HS adjustment.
'All over it!'
Malcolms address is: firstname.lastname@example.org he is very prompt with his replies and very helpful, he sent me a new spring from the US free of charge, good luck and let us know what he advises.
I've emailed Malcom now so will see what he says.
I think you need to run a bit more sag thus maybe a lighter spring.. if its not as supple as you like with all the compression off it would imply you are oversprung. Im running 35% sag and its supple on the little stuff and I use the HSC to control the big hits
Originally Posted by dipper
Cheers Karve. I'd forgotten about those threads.
are you still running stock HSC and R settings?
Nah my setting have changed since then (ill let you know what they are if i get a chance to measure them over the weekend)... im running a bit more rebound as I like a nice slow return on large big hits... and a little more compression.. I jack it up if im doing big drops and loosen it off if im trail riding..
The criteria I use are
If I pop a jump do I get to far over the bars - less LSR
If I pop a jump am I landing too back first - more LSR
Is the shock bobbing when pedalling - more LSC
Is the shock not bobbing - Less LSC until it does a little
Am I getting bucked off on big hits - More HSR
Is the back end packing up on repeated big hits - Less HSR
Am I bottoming out on big drops - More HSC
Is the ride a bit harsh - Less HSC
If you stick to those I think you get a pretty good ride with the shock
Sounds like your issues are not fixed my winding out the HSC so the next step to to lighten off the spring. I do think that winding out the HSR will be making it feel harsher than it should however... only adjust one at a time. Try adding some HSR back and see if that helps... should deaden the big hits a little.
Last edited by Karve; 01-02-2009 at 04:48 PM.
Do all of you run over 30% sag or is that only when running a ccdb.
I havent a nicolai helius fr but i want one,and will very soon and was wondering what shock to run, i was thinking of a dxh coil due to my slender 240lbs riding weight but i coould be intersted in a ccdb.
you may be onto something with the HSR. I started with that and ended up with it backed right off. i then did the same with the HSC. Both helped but I never thought to start slowing up the HSR again as maybe the original harshness was mainly from the HSC being too slow and now it's the overly fast HSR. Can't see it being the spring as i'm already over 30% sag but I'll try that also as I should have a 500lb lying about.
Oddly, on every other shock I've tried I have the opposite issue. I reckon at 220lb geared up I'm on the limit of stock shock tuning. I usually need to run rebound damn near maxed out(closed) to control the heavier spring rates required.
The Nicolai FR and AM both allow you to run 30% sag using pretty much any shock while still remaining easy to pedal. The CCDB, being better controlled at low shaft speeds allows greater sag without wallowing and sagging all over the place. I've yet to try more than 35% sag but I know there are those that run 40% with the CCDB. I'm not entirely sure there's a benefit in this but I'll maybe give it a go just to be sure.
Give it a go.. that back end pinging back after every big hit will make it feel harsher than if you allow the bike to return with some rebound control! Let us know how it feels.
from 0 - sideways 3.2 sec
Some interesting stuff, i must say when i had the CCDB on it wasnt tuned for me atall but it did still feel good. I'd love to try it again setup for my weight etc.
I'm loving the RP23 at the moment which i thought i never would!
Just to add to the mix I was considering a CCDB but instead chose to plump for a BOS S**Toy instead as its equal in quality and can get it service 4 miles from my house @ TFTuned.
Still waiting for it to arrive at the moment ordered it in November but Olivier Bossard was concentrating on all of the Paris Dakar shocks for the rally cars before Christmas so couldn't get the Bike Shocks made and dyno'd.
Can't imagine why he would concentrate on dozens of £5,000 pound shocks rather than my little'un........
Full report will follow when it arrives
from 0 - sideways 3.2 sec
Nice one Garry, will be interested to hear the results
yea deffo interested to hear how that works out... are you the first to run one of those on a Nic?
BOS STOY / TFTuned
It looks like it! TFTuned will prepare it for the AM and my weight / riding style.
Can't wait, I have briefly ridden a Stoy which belonged to one of the guys from TFTuned and it was very, very nice although I suppose it should be seeing as the guy is a tuner!
All of the guys from TFTuned are members of our club the Black Canon Collective, last month I had my TALAS 36's out for the first time and Neil asked me for the bike gave the forks a tweek and gave it back saying 'it was almost there!' a compliment I think.
Having had a conversation with Tim Flooks over a pint (after a night ride) the consensus was that the CCDB gives 99% of riders more too mess up, whereas what is needed is consumer adjustability within the bounds of good tuning. Not the option to ruin a good thing.
Dipper it would be good to do a back to back test if we meet up as there is not a single one on the internet! Only people guessing.
We will see but I think if the truth be known it would take Steve Peat to see the difference!
That would be great Garry but I'm an hour north of Aberdeen! I'm sure we could come to some arrangement though!
I think everyone can benifit from quality/well set up suspension. Not just the pro's. I'm sure Peaty and the likes could ride any old crap faster than us but if your suspensions working for you as opposed to against you it's one less thing for you to worry about.
It's true you can make shocks like the CCDB feel like a dogs dinner and I certainly wouldn't reccomend one to everyone. However, if you've even got the slightest understanding of what a shock does then it's fairly easy to get it in the right ball park. It's just the last wee bit I'm struggling with.
I've got plenty customers on flash bikes with fully adjustable suspension that have no idea or no interest in setting them up properly. The most common things I see are no rebound damping on forks, too much or too little sag on shocks and forks that are way to big for the bike. All these cock ups can be done with or without fully adjustable suspension.
The snag with suspension 'operating within the bounds of good tuning' is that if you're required spring rate is above or below the manufacturers damping range, you're screwed. You then need it custom tuned. This obviously suits Tim Flooks though I'm guessing it was probably custom tuning he was getting at in which case I agree with his sentiments.
Malcom from Cane Creek has been in touch. he's sure we can sort it out. Chances are it's just me not having a clue.(my words, not his!) He's offered to send another spring direct from the states so thats the customer service box ticked! I'm feeling happier with the shock already
Won't get to test his advice for another week yet unfortunately
TF makes a fair point, but there are riders out here that understand the range of shock tuning required to suit varying terrrain / locations and therefore the wider span needed for adjustment, rather than just a narrow band of range.