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  1. #101
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    p.s that's a custom helius tb

  2. #102
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Hi fatwheeled. As it's fwd geometry my ETT is 665mm max. 661mm min. I could've gone a touch longer I think without worry but it's good. At 5'11" with those dimensions we are almost exactly the same.

    Personally I like longer and then adjust with bars/saddle (a lot of range in a riser bar)
    With a 35mm stem I'd be speccing at least 635mm now for a middle saddle position.
    BUT that's me. You can always use a shorter stem (10mm/20mm/30mm) or move saddle forward but if it was too short no one likes using a longer stem😉
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Michelin is 61mm wide at knob edge and 700mm dia.
    Pilot

    Thanks. I'll check the width of the MM's I have to compare. I know the dia. is 705mm.

  4. #104
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    Agree, am in conversation with Marcel and may nudge it longer...

    cheers

  5. #105
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    you got a zero length stem?

  6. #106
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Fateheeled. Yes. Zero(10mm but actually about 7mm effective) I have my 10mm ride bars rotated slightly forward, the sweep/rise suits me there.
    I love the front end feel of forward and in steep stuff it's confidence inspiring qualities are unrivalled (IMHO of course &#128515
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  7. #107
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    Hey Pilot,
    Man that bike looks fab. Great write up.
    So you're loving the Schwalbe MM and RR on the Derby rim? I am liking a 650B front (currently the Conti 2.4 RQ) on my Large AM (in a 26" Deville, like Loamranger) and am seriously considering the Derby 40mm rim for my final front wheel. I like the idea a lot.
    Of course I'll be trying RQ and MM - I'll not be trying a RR on the front, even though I heard Brendog can ride like that!
    enjoy it mate

  8. #108
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Mud fish, Michelin Wildrock'r2 on the front for me.
    I like the RockRazer. Don't seem to get on with HD type tyres, always seem to destroy Schwalbe sidewalls but the SG casing seems better if heavy.
    My day to day tyre will be Hutchinsons I think, Couger/cobra.
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  9. #109
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    Thanks Pilot,
    you've tried the Derby 40mm rim with the Rock Razor then? But not the Muddy Mary? Those rims are tempting, but BIG(wide). Plainly it's altering the tyre shape from the designer's intention. For example Schwalbe recommend rims up to 29C (29 inner width) for their 2.4 (60mm) tyres. Of course they'l likely not have even tested on a 40mm/34mm inner mm rim
    You're loving them though, right? Just doing my research as with delivery they are not cheap ;-)
    The 2.4 Rubber Queen might be worth testing too. I'd likely either use that or Magic Mary. I agree that SG seems better/ stiffer, but also quite weighty.
    best
    n

  10. #110
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    Very interesting read the_pilot.
    Really want to try out a fwd geo bike.

    Riding a 29er at the moment, so interested in the 2015 mondraker crafty.
    Tutta la gamma Mondraker 2015 con i prezzi - MtbCult.it

    Looks to be a 29er version of the foxy.
    Whats your take on it? Why did you think 27.5 was more suited to the fwd geo?

  11. #111
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Yamaha46, my moto hero btw...

    There is no quick or simple answer, fwd geo, for me (Mondraker major on other factors it seems) in principle, is addressing some of the 'issues' for smaller wheels, that a 29 addresses automatically, that being stability, with a side order of climbing. The 29 delivers stability through the wheels first, the BB height relative to the axles/CofG, and length. The stability, through the wheel gyroscopics, and added trail, creates certain characteristics, like requiring more effort to pick the bike up out of a corner and drop it in, without designer intervention. Hence designers trying to shorten them, and reduce trail to keep manoeuvrability and add wide bar short stem.
    This doesn't address the fundamental point that the wheels are heavier, further from the centre of rotation making them more stable through gyroscopic effect. Also makes them much more stable in the air, which depending on your point of view is either very good or very bad!
    Fwd geo with a smaller wheel allows you to get the stability of the wheelbase in terms of straightline at speed but retain the pickup/drop in speed as the gyroscopics of the wheels are lower, also more manoeuvrable in the air. You also don't need such a slack head angle with fwd geo as the stability is augmented by the wheelbase and the Zero stem speeds steering up. Although these aspects also apply to a 29.

    The length of a fwd geo 29 would be less of an issue to a really big guy with lots if muscle I think, but even with carbon wheels I can tell the difference picking up my fwd geo Ion Vs my not massively long (not short as it has a 66.5HA) Ion 29 at my weight/height. And particularly in the air.

    It's not a simple or black/white answer because of these many factors, it depends a lot on what you want from the bike, where you ride it etc.
    but just because you can turn the bars quickly doesn't mean a bike becomes 'flickable' 'year cannae change the laws of physics Jim' as Scotty used to say. I used to have a 72dwg HA, long chainstay 29er and it was still stable at speed and In the air.

    So fwd geo for me was about the steering feel, to get that, with the TT length I wanted coupled with my weight/size I felt 29 would be too long/too stable and smash everything on the trail in a straight line but be a handful in a lot of ways at the speeds it would be capable, kinda like a hugely powerful front wheel drive car maybe!

    If you're big I think less of an issue. My broinlaw has gone fwd/29 on his slightly too big 29 and loves it but at XL it's still shorter than my Ion. Also depends whether fwd geo to you is a 30mm stem or zero. To me zero is a world away from a 30mm in feel/response.
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  12. #112
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    That makes sense, thanks for the detailed reply.
    Learning a lot here.

    Would like to go with the zero stem.
    The only thing is the higher bar height. Normally have mine low. But most riders seam to have spacers under the zero stem.
    Is there anything about the fwd geo that means you would prefer the bar higher than on a standard geo bike?

  13. #113
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Ref. bar height not really, it has a 30mm approx effective rise with the stem. I only have a 7mm spacer under mine because my fork was cut, I was trying it first, and you have to be precise with the fork cut/insertion. It's not a problem tho. Perhaps, like me these people are using a low rise bar or maybe higher rise bar.
    My Fwd Geo is very close to where my 29 was in height. It's longer travel by 10mm but similar axle to crown. I have it a little lower than my 29 was. I had 10mm under my 29 stem (Easton 35) so 25mm rise bar and 150mm fork.
    160mm fork, zero stem with steerer cut tight/slammed and 10mm rise bar would be about the same, maybe a touch higher. I prefer it to be a little lower than my saddle but that was tough with the 29. It's largely irrelevant out of the saddle descending tho but would matter climbing.

    Whar size, length TT were you looking at? So you have a bike you are comfortable on now in terms of overall length saddle to bar or more importantly crank axle to handlebar/ effective reach.
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  14. #114
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    I think i'd be looking at a size large foxy as that has 660 TT.
    I'm about 5'10"/5'11" height.

    Currently running a 75mm stem as a compromise. Shorter is to short a reach. Longer is unstable. Hence wanting longer reach to run a shorter stem.
    590 current TT + 75 = 665.
    So the zero stem on the large foxy would be about the same bar to saddle.
    I would go longer as I like the reach but then the seat tube is to long for a dropper.

  15. #115
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Ah yes the seat tube. One of the other key reasons I didn't go Mondraker (apart from wanting to change a few other parts of geo,
    I kinda wanted a Foxy/Dune hybrid but longer, lower(BB and ST), slacker ) I wanted to use a minimum 150mm dropper but as you may have read I'm waiting for a 170mm to 200mm. a 18.5 ST is pushing it for me let alone bigger.
    They had shortened everything for 2014 and optimised around the 30mm stem it seemed. The L was about right for me in 26" but ST still too tall. I wanted longer than 660mm but shorter than 470mm ST, 510mm was way too big.
    Anyways. At your height, it will be pretty much spot on I think. Mine's 10mm longer in high but that's easily dialled in if you want it by using a higher rise bar and rotating it forward to get the right rise/sweep. About 40mm overall adjustment in reach with different rise/sweep/rotation.
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  16. #116
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    My two Fwd Geo Bikes

    Mondraker Dune and Hand made hardtail
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-20140826_161422.jpg  

    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-20140826_161651.jpg  

    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-20140826_161824.jpg  


  17. #117
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    Awesome.

    Is it the same geometry as the dune?

  18. #118
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    Is about the same....the main difference is that the hard tail is slacker...64° head angle with 140 fork....it has a 150 fork...so it must be slacker

  19. #119
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Probably about the same with sag, FS won't change much.


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  20. #120
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    A few mini updates/pics. Lovin it..
    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-imageuploadedbytapatalk1418995565.417786.jpg
    WMB article last month

    Basque Country riding in Sept.
    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-imageuploadedbytapatalk1418995614.740551.jpg
    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-imageuploadedbytapatalk1418995644.796141.jpg
    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-imageuploadedbytapatalk1418995666.980911.jpgOrdered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-imageuploadedbytapatalk1418995687.984049.jpg

    Just gratuitous bike pic Finale Freeride in Oct.😊
    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-imageuploadedbytapatalk1418995770.747611.jpg
    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-imageuploadedbytapatalk1418995788.797636.jpg

    And just because
    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom-imageuploadedbytapatalk1418995818.870833.jpg





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  21. #121
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    the_pilot,

    First off, nicely done!

    I'm curious to know your thoughts now that you've had some more time on the bike. From the geometry/design choices that you made, have you discovered anything that wasn't obvious at first? Or is there anything that you would change?

  22. #122
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Well. Firstly love it. Nothing that wasn't obvious has come to mind ref. the frame.
    Such wide wheels are tyre sensitive I've found. A rounded profile is preferable. Not essential but for my riding style easier.
    Also with the big tyres and wheel the front is not as low with a 10mm stem as I'd now like. However I also discovered I could go, and in fact liked, longer!!! I have my bars rotated forward more.! I could lower it a touch but don't want to cut the steerer any more!
    However this means I would like a little more reach, not seated length, a fact I was already after but bottled going longer still in ETT as I was also wary of the seat tube angle.
    All of the above has proved to be unfounded fear.
    So a 30mm stem is going on to increase the reach and lower the front, The seat is going forward to increase the seat tube angle/shorten/maintain the seated length..
    I could also have gone slacker I think without detriment but it's not necessary for me. The bike is waaaay faster than me.
    Impressions are its so confidence inspiring on steep stuff and difficult terrain, it's fine to get round tight alpine hairpins, just slightly different technique.
    It does beg to be ridden hard and the front to be loaded, you can generate some serious cornering speed.
    It climbs brilliantly!
    It is low. I've switched to high for some terrain, but not often and it's always sorted my problem. 90% of riding it's no problem at all.
    It's not a bike for riding around point to point without some 'interest' the Ion 15 is a better 'one' bike if you want xc long rides too.
    That's not to say you can't do that but it's more exciting if the terrain leans toward sawtooth.
    So what would I change, not much of anything, that I havent been able to do but I could bake it into the frame geo so maybe..
    I could make the seat tube steeper to get the extra reach (76=+20mm) without going longer in the top tube. if anything to keep the front low (it's length and low seat tube mean the front doesn't need to be high to give confident descending, you can stay central and lower cofg rather than lean back and thus maintain traction/control) I could keep the 30mm stem and shorten the ETT by maybe 15mm, slacken the head angle to 64 deg.
    Also perhaps lengthen the chain stays by 10mm to 442mm to centralise the weight distribution more with the relative movement back of the BB when standing for cornering and climbing.
    I may or may not already have a drawing to that spec in front of me from Marcel
    But the reality is, it's great as is and I don't need to change anything, but I am a serial experimenter.
    My friend who runs the Nicolai Bikes Facebook page, Matt Letch (Formerly of Singletrack Magazine) now has a copy of my bike but with 64deg HA, he says it's mad, insane and brilliant for ripping anything with a decent gradient but can be a bit boring if you're just riding it around flat stuff ...but if you ride it with a wild eyed grin and forget the brakes it's (insert swear word) mental




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  23. #123
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    Thanks for such a detailed analysis of the geometry and setup. There is always room for tweaks here and there. I'm a serial experimenter as well so I totally understand - depending on how I like my Foxy, I'm thinking about giving this a try next.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Well. Firstly love it. Nothing that wasn't obvious has come to mind red the frame.
    Such wide wheels are tyre sensitive I've found. A rounded profile is preferable. Not essential but for my riding style easier.
    Also with the big tyres and wheel the front is not as low with a 10mm stem as I'd like. However I also discovered I could go, and in fact liked, longer!!! I have my bars rotated forward.! I could lower it a touch but don't want to cut the steerer any more!
    However this means I would like a little more reach, not seated length, a fact I was already after but bottled going longer still in ETT as I was also wary of the seat tube angle.
    All of the above has proved to be unfounded fear.
    So a 30mm stem is going on to increase the reach and lower the front, The seat is going forward to increase the seat tube angle/shorten/maintain the seated length..
    I could also have gone slacker I think without detriment but it's not necessary for me. The bike is waaaay faster than me.
    Impressions are its so confidence inspiring on steep stuff and difficult terrain, it's fine to get round tight alpine hairpins, just slightly different technique.
    It does beg to be ridden hard and the front to be loaded, you can generate some serious cornering speed.
    It climbs brilliantly!
    It is low. I've switched to high for some terrain, but not often and it's always sorted my problem. 90% of riding it's no problem at all.
    It's not a bike for riding around point to point without some 'interest' the Ion 15 is a better 'one' bike if you want xc long rides too.
    That's not to say you can't do that but it's more exciting if the terrain leans toward sawtooth.
    So what would I change, not much of anything, that I havent been able to do but I could bake it into the frame geo so maybe..
    I could make the seat tube steeper to get the extra reach (76=+20mm) without going longer in the top tube. if anything to keep the front low (it's length and low seat tube mean the front doesn't need to be high to give confident descending, you can stay central and lower cofg rather than lean back) I could keep the 30mm stem and shorten the ETT by maybe 15mm, slacken the head angle to 64 deg.
    Also perhaps lengthen the chain stays by 10mm to 442mm to centralise the weight distribution more with the relative movement back of the BB when standing for cornering and climbing.
    I may or may not already have a drawing to that spec in front of me from Marcel
    But the reality is, it's great as is and I don't need to change anything, but I am a serial experimenter.
    My friend who runs the Nicolai Bikes Facebook page, Matt Letch (Formerly of Singletrack Magazine) now has a copy of my bike but with 64deg HA, he says it's mad, insane and brilliant for ripping anything with a decent gradient but can be a bit boring if you're just riding it around flat stuff ...but if you ride it with a wild eyed grin and forget the brakes it's (insert swear word) mental

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  24. #124
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Foxy is a great bike. I couldn't get it long enough without the seat tube getting too big to fit my 200mm dropper post nor slack enough but a ride on one followed by borrowing it started this journey for me.
    I also prefer the more immediate start of the stroke on the Ion setup and wanted more travel for the Alps.
    As an everyday bike the Foxy rocks.



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  25. #125
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    pilot, nice analysis. It was down to you and CP that I started thinking about FWG in the first place, thanks. I took the easier route and bought a Dune and I am not regretting it.

  26. #126
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    Ordered: Ion 16 Fwd Geo Custom

    Loamranger yes CP also makes interesting discussion, had a few exchanges with him...he's a bit more extreme than me but we aren't far off I don't think. CP has come back a bit after his experiments.
    I like the Dune too. Same problem for me, for the length (tho longer than everything else) ST just too tall for my shortarse legs with a big dropper post.
    I rode one in Spain this year and really liked it.
    I don't think fwd geo is for everyone but I think you know really quickly if you try one if it is



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  27. #127
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    Guys, Pilot,
    any thoughts on the Mojo Nicolai Geometron, seems like Porter has gone even further on forward geometry with this pretty radical design.
    I started a new thread in case anyones got any thoughts
    MOJO SUSPENSION ::: Mojo Nicolai GeoMetron
    Mojo and Nicolai team up to offer a unique new suspension bike - MBR

  28. #128
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    Further? His extreme long version is very close to mine in length, bar head angle (it does add 40ish mm admittedly and 10mm CS) ..
    Head angle slacker and seat tube inherently steeper.
    I think the head angle is too slack for me. I said that. Marcel at Nicolai also finds it extreme for the flatter trail riding. Having said that they also felt that about my slacker Ion15 which I certainly didn't, so don't knock it 'till youve tried it probably rings true here...
    I think mine could go to 64 and I'd be ok with it but I've never found the limits of 65.5. It's not enough of a draw to make a new frame (yet) or buy a new fork (can't fit an angleset coz my steerer is too short to take an external lower cup!) Matts is 64deg and he loves it but he's in Hebden, which is all steep. But i'd give 64 a go..
    On the ST, that's both to gain reach without an even longer TT and counteract the 63deg head angle for climbing in addition to 445mm chainstays (13mm longer than std)
    I do have my saddle forward (15mm) such that the SA is close (76.5deg approx) as now I've added a 30mm stem and dropped the front by 35mm. My reach is longer, which I wanted, but I needed to shorten the ETT. I'm cool with the shorter stays.
    I don't need even the SA with my steeper HA and so far have felt no need for the Slacker HA!
    All in all, I applaud where Chris has gone. You can try it to see if it's for you. Obviously the suspension pivot position and everything is tied into the Fox suspension e.g sag is set to make the SA around 75 when climbing and pivot point changed to max out anti squat in the climbing gear with rates tuned to the shock too. So set up right it will be great and the opportunity to do that at BPW, with the servicing etc, I think its a great way to go with a performance bike.

    However, I dont like the name etc...i think it could be more classy.. Also not my choice of running gear, although I do like the idea of the new 36 as its lighter than a Deville.

    Now I have the 200mm dropper, tyres that work with my 40mm rims, longer reach, lower front, not much I'm not happy with. I will put a short shock for 140mm rear UK use but that's it. If I get bored I might try a 1.5 angleset and stump up for a new fork but I doubt it...
    I fancy trying a 26" rear wheel first


    Edited for errors and revised measurements!


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  29. #129
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    Hey Pilot,
    thanks for the comprehensive reply
    I think I might try it and if i do I'll post.
    it'll be a little while though. maybe a carpark test if I make it to Wales sooner.

    thanks mate

    neil
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    I think the head angle is too slack for me. I said that. Marcel at Nicolai also finds it extreme for the flatter trail riding. Having said that they also felt that about my slacker Ion15 which I certainly didn't, so don't knock it 'till youve tried it probably rings true here...

  30. #130
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    Update: Well I was in Hebden the t'other week and I tried Matt's bike which is the same as mine in geo but slacker...confession time; Whilst I still don't need the slacker head angle per se for my riding, I have to admit I did like the way it steered, it had a slightly damped feel to it at slower speeds, (some impact of different tyres but not huge)so I've ordered a works headset for mine and because I'm building my wife a bike I have the opportunity to sort the fork situation out with a longer steerer.

    It was also obvious in Hebden why Matt loves it so much, it was just in it's element.

    I didn't ride it at high speed so can't comment if it slows the whole thing down too much but thats a risk I am happy to take and I doubt it.

    Mudfish, you're welcome to a bash on mine if you want, not sure where you're based?
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  31. #131
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    Hey Santi, that is excellent. I read your thread. As the person who originally did the work on the Ion15, I understand your comment of 'boat' I don't completely agree as the feeling is one of indestructible it steam rollers the trail, which is what some want but others less so. You are obviously less so. I also could not agree more that fwd geometry is great. As mentioned here I think it could be too much for a 29, but the Mondraker Crafty is interesting.
    I have discussed a similar 26/27.5 design with Marcel but am happy with the 27. Version I have now I think ...
    I have a very tall friend who is looking for a bike to fit him, he is 196cm and would need 690mm ETT and a good reach, of perhaps 515mm. He also wants higher front but not too long a bike.
    I think this could work well for him, 27.5 to keep the rear short but 29 to keep the front high without too tall HT and roll well, without the need to have too slack a HA with the increased trail of the 29, again helping to keep the bike shorter.
    I think I will study your drawing.
    One other way is to move the ST angle to 76 or 77deg to increase reach but not the ETT.

    Thanks for posting, it's always good to hear how such projects turn out..



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  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Hey Santi, that is excellent. I read your thread. As the person who originally paid the work in the Ion15, I understand your comment of 'boat' I don't completely agree as the feeling is one of indestructible, which is what some want but others less so. You are obviously less so. I also could not agree more for fed geometry. As mentioned here I think it could be too much for a 29, but the Mondraker Crafty is interesting.
    I have discussed a similar 26/27.5 design with Marcel but am happy with the 27. Version I have now I think...
    I have a very tall friend who is looking for a bike to fit him, he is 196cm and would need 690mm ETT and a good reach, of perhaps 515mm. He also wants higher front but not too long a bike.
    I think this could work well for him, 27.5 to keep the rear short but 29 to keep the front high without too tall HT and roll well, without the need to have too slack a HA with the increased trail of the 29, again helping to keep the bike shorter.
    I think I will study your drawing.
    One other way is to move the ST angle to 76 or 77deg to increase reach but not the ETT.

    Thanks for posting, it's always good to hear how such projects turn out..



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  34. #134
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    I hope that came across ok, even though I made some spelling errors!
    In summary, fwd geometry is great and I really like your design. I will discuss this with Marcel with a 76deg SA and 690 mm top tube I think



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  35. #135
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    Great thread and fantastic bike SANTI-AGO, it might just be the perfect replacement for my AC 29er

  36. #136
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    Interestingly if you drop out the front in my Ion16 for a 29, obviously ignoring small axle to crown differences, essentially you have the same geometry within mm, just 29 front.
    My friend is open to the idea anyway...


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  37. #137
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    Very demanding test this weekend in Asturias, Spain
    I can not be happier with the performance of the Ion FG 29 / 27.5
    sensational











  38. #138
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    Santi-Ago

    Really like this project. What led you to the idea of 29/27.5?

    How tall are you and what stem length are you using?

    Cheers.

  39. #139
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    Thanks Pilot and Santi-Ago...food for thought

  40. #140
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    Looks like a 20mm stem. At 661mm ETT I'll guess 5'11" or around 180cm


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    Last edited by the_pilot; 05-27-2015 at 05:50 AM. Reason: stem length guess mod!
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  41. #141
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    Looks like I will be doing a project based on the 27.5/29 concept for my very tall friend, he very much likes the idea/benefits for a tall person.

    I think perhaps a little less travel at the front and rear.
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  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    Santi-Ago

    Really like this project. What led you to the idea of 29/27.5?

    How tall are you and what stem length are you using?

    Cheers.
    the stem is 10 mm for my 1.85 cms
    The reason for the chosen configuration was willing to seek a more agile and responsive back than my previous ION 15
    For it had no choice but to shorten the pods and in that case the only solution was to reduce wheel dialmetro
    On the other hand did not want to give up the benefits they offered me my front / fork wheel 29..mejor obsaculos step, trust etc
    Finally I saw this post and having consulted with some users Mondraker about your experience with the FG, they left me no doubt.
    My new bike would be a combination of 29 and 27.5 FG trying to measures and were not overly radical angles.
    I think the result could not have been better. I'm excited about the behavior of the bike.

  43. #143
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    Great news, Pilot. I'll watch with interest...any cheaper if you order two?


    Cheers

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by SANTI-AGO View Post
    Very demanding test this weekend in Asturias, Spain
    I can not be happier with the performance of the Ion FG 29 / 27.5
    sensational











    Very nice, How are you finding the CCDB Air??

  45. #145
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    I am in the process of ordering an ion16. Sorry to derail but is a wire transfer the only form of payment available state side ? Thanks!

  46. #146
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    Hi v0n if ordering direct that is the only way from anywhere not just the states.

    There is a distributer/dealer in the U.S. now that you can use too.


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  47. #147
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    Cool. Just wanted to confirm before I wired it. Now comes the wait!

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