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  1. #1
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Nicolai Helius FR - Capabilities.....

    I know many of you on this forum own an FR, so my question to you all, is just how far can you push the FR? As you may know, I am in the process of rebuilding my FR with a burly build that includes a CCDB (from old) and a new totem coil which I see coming in at about 38lb with DH tyres and tubes.

    With this in mind, how far could you realisticly push the limits of the FR? Could a bike such as this be used for DH? and by this I don't mean World Championship courses, but local downhill runs.

    I have been interested in building a more DH specific bike, but now with the prices of frames and indeed parts increasing to riduculous levels, would I be asking too much from a bike that has 6.6inches of rear travel.

    I understand that this is a highly subjective topic and is dependant on build and rider ability to name a few, but your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

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    Can't see a problem with that....should be fine for shuttle runs.

  3. #3
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    I don't own an FR but I have test ridden one and I can't see any reason why you couldn't quite easily ride the FR on even World Cup level courses. You're right, it is very subjective and it's hard to find a way to illustrate the point. I've got an Ion, which is the 'worldcup DH bike' and a Spesh 2006 Enduro with 140mm of travel. I've ridden both on a number of local (Welsh) DH courses and I reckon I'm in the region of 10% maybe 15% faster on the Ion than on the Enduro.
    If you really want a bike you can do everything on, then consider building your FR up with the lightest components you can, i.e. XTR/XT level kit, but have two sets of wheels, one for DH, one for trail riding. You probably don't need to put a Totem but there's no reason why you shouldn't, it will just add a lot more weight. You could just as easily ride a DH course with a RS Lyrik (which is what I have on the Spesh) or a Fox Van 36 or similar.
    Last year there was a guy riding a DMR Trailstar at the Mynydd Du Dragon DH race. I can't quite remember where he came overall, but it was something like top 30 overall - on a bloody hardtail! Myn Du is a hard course to ride fast (it's a hard course to ride full stop) but it illustrates the point.
    Have fun with the bike and consider your options - at 38 lbs the bike is going to be too heavy to have any real all day trail fun and really, your build kit doesn't need to be heavy. People are running light chainsets, bars, stems, posts etc on their DH bikes these days because they're all perfectly good enough.

  4. #4
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    well, I had an Mpire before it got stolen in June in Morzine.

    So I had to hit all summer the DH runs with my Helius FR (2008) I took off my Lyric and set it up with a 66 RCX. Well I have to say, I did exactly the same time as i use to do with my Mpire. I did pass the same gap without a problem.

    I was dead tired at the end of each ride cause you take much more abuse (your body) but in the end, the bike was much lighter, easier to move. It's only on really destroy section that I really missed my Mpire. On big gaps also... the rear was so much smoother with the Mpire....

    pictures are really crappy, but that's what my FR has been taking all summer long :





    I had to say, even if the Helius Fr is NOT a real dh rig, it's possible to use it as long as you take care of being smooth with it and service the bike more often (checking bolts, axles etc...)

    Love this bike !

  5. #5
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    It can be pushed as far as you want it to Lorni. What you've described is pretty damn close to the build of mine and I've used it as my only bike for 6/7 months. Everything from local gnarly singletrack to full on DH action at Innerleithen. It will also be called into action for a trip to Fort Bill later in the Spring to ride the existing worlds course and the new red DH course. Admittedly, I have bottomed out both the shock and the Totems on some of the bigger stuff but only on the very odd occassion and usually because I've landed badly after getting carried away with my speed .
    The '08 onwards FR was designed as a more aggressive bike capable of DH days or, with 36's/Lyriks, air shock and lighter wheel/tyre combo, an all day bike with big hit capability. I love it for it's flexability and the fact it can handle a DH course one minute then fly through the red/black Glentress singletrack the next.

    If you end up spending a lot of time on DH courses then a 2nd DH bike might be worth a punt. If it's only going to be one part of your riding then stick with the FR and enjoy it in the manner it was built for.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for your inputs. It seems that the FR can take more than I had thought. I have a set of coil lyriks for trail use but have purchased the totems for the more gravity sided events.

    With regards to wheels, I have also thought about this. I am currently running Syncros DS 28s (a more AM) but plan to use Maxxis Advantage 2.4 rather than the dual ply High Rollers, but plan to purchase some Mavic 823 for DH purposes with the heavy tubeless tread.

    I hope to get my FR built up over the next couple of days and will list it with a full parts list and photos so that people may have a better understanding of what I hope to achieve.

    Any further opinions are welcomed.

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    I been using 823's for 18 months now, first on my yeti ASX and now the Nicolai. So far they've been pretty bombproof and not required any trueing. Messiah on here has had his for years on his Nucleon and as far as I'm aware hasn't had any issues and he usually finds the breaking limit of kit

    I'm looking forward to seeing the finished bike.

  8. #8
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    I am currently awaiting delivery of the frame, so I will start the build process this very evening.

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    I used my fr on a cwm carn uplift day and I was only running talas 36s, handled everything fine. I also used it on the wc dh track at les arcs

  10. #10
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    the FR is MORE than capable of dealing with ANY british DH course.
    the limiting factor will be the wheels, but 823's are SO Much wheel, there's little to worry about imo.
    it's so capable in fact, thats why I chose an AM over the FR. i simply do not need any more bike for my riding here in North East Scotland, and we have lots of square edged hitting rock up here
    dipper runs his FR occaionally on triple clamped zocchis....this set up will devour the UK DH's and all Alp shuttlers.
    again, the limiting factor is the wheel rim / tyre choice.........

  11. #11
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    Thanks TLR, that is music to my ears. I agree totally with wheel choice. As already stated, I will run Syncros DS28 with Maxxis Advantage 2.4 and tubes for AM then the 823 tubeless with Maxxis Minions in 2.5, ST on the front and 60A on the rear.

    I must admit, the FR looks the business with the Triples. I have seen one on this forum with boxxers and the A-C is about the same as the totem. I think the FR is the total package, so much more than the equivalent Nomad or 6.6. I am happy with my choice in the Totems and will see how I go. Back to building now....

  12. #12
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    lorni - the FR shoul NOT be confused as a rival to the 6.6 or the NOMAD.... that job is taken care of, (and won), by the AM.

    the model year 08 onwards FR is exactly that - a FR rig.....designed to run 180mm forks as yetiman has already identified to his pleasure.....

    trail wise, the AM has that base now covered, and the reason i believe nicolai introduced the revised less adjustable 180mm FR for the 08 season.

  13. #13
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    A fair point indeed. I hadn't equated the AM to the Nomad/6.6 - many thanks.

  14. #14
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    Lorni - you will be all good bro... I did a run on A Line at Whistler last year on the FR, it wasnt as easy or as smooth as the ION, but it ripped it, was light, nimble and quick... All on DT 5.2 rims.... But like you, have 823's on the ION, and they are bomb proof....

    Build it, ride it, then ride it and then some more....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  15. #15
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    I've ridden the British, French and Swiss national DH courses on My FR... its more than capable of handling that type of terrain and is certainly strong enough to take the beating those course provide. The ST seems to use the FR's front end with a bigger rear and shock so there is plenty of burliness there natively on the FR. Taking a beating is however not the b all and end all.

    Lets not forget that the FR does have trail Geometry - I was hoping that they would slack it out further with the intro of the Am and bump the travel at the rear to 180. Without this slackness (64-65.5 head angles are ideal) a FR with a totem is 67ish, it will be compromised on high speed and steep sections as it will get twitchy. It is all about the geo bro. No amount of burliness will compensate for that. I suspect that with the coil totems rather than my airs you will not blow through travel as quick in the mid stroke so this may be less of an issue for you. U willl also take less of a beating from the coils.

    This is exactly why adjustable geo is on my Nicolai wish list. A 65.5 headangle FR would make it a contender for a perfect mini downhill machine and i probably would not have splashed out on the Gambler. A head sleeve sleeve to twek geo from 65.5 to 75.5 would be delicious. Delirium T Style

    It very capable of having a lot of fun on it. I more than kept up with my buddy last year on his Vpfree and fox 40's but he was less tired
    Last edited by Karve; 02-18-2009 at 10:40 AM.

  16. #16
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    Thanks Jon, I knew that you have done much on your FR, especially overseas so thats good to hear. I recieved the frame today but have some real issues with the shop that put it together! more on that once I have informed them.

    It's all looking good although with the current dual ply DH High rollers it's a heavy beast, which for me, is no great shake, thats changed with a new set of tyres.
    The white looks crisp and with the black totems, looks the dogs swingers. Just need to bleed the brakes and put the stickers on and ready for photographs.

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    Hey Karve, that's why I ordered my FR with a 66 degree angle for the lenght of a Lyric.
    Even with a 160mm fork, it's perfect !!!
    With my 66 on, I was at 65į, was really cool !

    Think about tailor made, it's a certain price, but at the end, choosing your geometry is worth it !!!

  18. #18
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    Since 08 Helius ST at 65 and UFO ST at 66...both ideal geo for DH? If you can afford two Nic's the UFO/HeliusST or Ion for DH plus CC or RC for UK XC is all you would ever need I think?

  19. #19
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    Stop teasing alex throw us some build pics!

  20. #20
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    Just waiting for the stickers then photos. Had a ride today and WOW!

  21. #21
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    hell yea... how sexy does that front end feel now eh!

  22. #22
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    It's not even broken in yet and feels amazing, the travel just goes on and on. I am feeling good things with the CCDB now with the lighter spring. Have set up the LS settings, will measure sag tomorrow, but waiting for some hard riding to sort the HSC, so leaving that at factory settings.

    Its just getting used to feeling sag now, where as before it was just so hard with the 700lb spring. I must admit, this amount of sag will take some getting used to.

  23. #23
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    Sag is good, some pictures would be even better Lorni..... You teaser
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  24. #24
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    lorni - get your CCDB settings into the sticky at the top of the nic forum page ! what spring you running now BTW ?

  25. #25
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    Yeah, will do TLR. I am now running a 650lb spring as suggested by Malcolm at CC. I measured the sag today and running 38%. For me, it's a little too much so will adjust the preload and try it at between 30 and 35%. Will post it all in the CCDB thread.

  26. #26
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    Come on Mate, where are the pic's?............. LOL
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  27. #27
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    Ok, will get some today and post them this afternoon - without stickers.

  28. #28
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    Yeah ha
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  29. #29
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    ... and if we just ... White certainly is beautiful......

    Well here it is....still awaiting decals but the bike is done. I finally fathomed how to get a good bleed on the formula brakes and can now stop on a two pence piece.
    So far have had good results with the CCDB and the softer spring, although will have to hit some good terrain to get it dialed.

    Excuse the somewhat urban backdrop, these were taken at a quick 'Sainsburys' stop after a quick thrash around the woods with the wife.
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    Lorni, what are you doing thrashing your wife in the woods? Seriously, like the new look....red or pink neon decals to finish? How's that new spring....are you getting 35 - 40 % sag with one turn?

  31. #31
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    Thought about red, but no, I'm a buff old traditionalist, so it's black I'm affraid. As for the woods, it's great to get some fresh air.........back to the bike....I now have the bike set at 35% sag which with the 650lb spring equates to about 8mm of preload. So far - so good! I haven't had a chance to get it on the scales yet, but I am thinking with Maxxis FR tubes and 2.5 HR DH tyres, about 38lb, although it doesn't feel like it!

  32. #32
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    Nice and shiny Alex! Good one with the white wheels. A totem and a white Nic, what more can you want? It's simply the best combo possible .

  33. #33
    steep fast and loose :)
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    yeah - TOTEM's are SO right on the FR......
    anything else just isn't doing the frame any justice..
    white's not my prefernce, but it looks reet functional - well done
    i like to see function beating form every time

  34. #34
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    Thanks for the kind words chaps, only got the handlebar width to consider now... currently 750mm but too wide, even for my shoulders. Will play around and will probably settle for 730mm. Looking forward to hitting the terrain that will do it justice...

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    Looks very nice.What spring are you running in the totems

  36. #36
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    Yee ha - looking mint mate and the totems look fab the black and white color combo works a treat. Drop us a line when u wanna go for ride to ease back into the riding!

  37. #37
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    Norcosam, I am currently running the X firm. Initial impressions are very stiff but until they have a few hours of riding in them I don't plan to change it. I will see how I get on but am thinking they will be mint after a good hammering.

    Jon, thanks mate. I am really pleased with the build and the colours. Will probably change out the DH tyres for a less heavy set of ADvantages. My plan is the use the HR at 1250g as a fitness tool to get back into riding shape. Riding sounds good as now back in Colchester, you on the same number and email?

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    Love the build, but not sure about the colour scheme which is a problem as thats the same colour as what my st is going to be. except i'm having white forks rather than white wheels. hopefully it will grow on me....

  39. #39
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    Looking great lornibear!!! a real trail crusher by the looks of it!
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  40. #40
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    I quite like the white and black theme but not the white rims. Otherwise a cracking looking bike Lorni. I've been running the medium spring in my Totems and they feel pretty good for my 13st weight. I wonder if you'd get away with a firm spring instead of the x-firm. How heavy are you?

  41. #41
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    I'm surprised to hear about the headangle of the FR. One would think with the ability to somewhat change rear shock configurations and positions, that it would probably be ok to commit to a more FR headangle for this, especially with the AM being around. It does seem a bit strange and overlapping.

    Maybe Nicolai just sees that their customers are using these rigs for "Extreme Trail" use, and would like an intermediate HA that still allows some tight ST use. That is pretty much what I use my RFX for, though I wish I could get a longer fork sometimes.

  42. #42
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    i'm with you Jerky - The FR is slightly compromised now by the AM...
    although the obvious difference is the FR's ability to run 180mm forks without over-slackening the geom too much...

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    Forgot to mention the custom option for more $$$ and/or more wait time. I would kick it out at least 1-1.5 degrees at minimum and see if there's tweaking with the settings that can alter it a bit more.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lornibear
    Riding sounds good as now back in Colchester, you on the same number and email?
    Yes I am mate... Joel one of the guys u met at Chickie is now out in Colchester and was asking after you the other day as he has a sprout on the way and wants to keep it local - ill let him know you are about. He's got a Giant XO with 167 on the back and and a new set of Totem coils upfront - so a good match for your beastie! Im always near Danbury riding as well which isnt far. You about this weekend?

  45. #45
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    Jon - Unfortunatly not, I am heading up to Dalby with a diversion to Cannock with the wife. She is dying to get some trail time in on her 575. But defo keep in touch and please let Joel know I am always up for a mid week ride, although geographically tied as the wife has the car in Huntingdon. Be good to meet up again soon for sure.

    Thanks Yetiman. As I said, I am running the X firm spring and will see how we go. Hopefully it will loosen up, but I already have reservations regarding the spring. The firm spring may be the way ahead, only time will tell. I am about sixteen and a half stone and selected the X firm based on my lyric.

  46. #46
    steep fast and loose :)
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    lorni : could be the damping of course - RS have the shonkiest damping ability of any mtb fork manufacturer

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    Quote Originally Posted by lornibear
    Jon - Unfortunatly not, I am heading up to Dalby with a diversion to Cannock with the wife. She is dying to get some trail time in on her 575. But defo keep in touch and please let Joel know I am always up for a mid week ride, although geographically tied as the wife has the car in Huntingdon. Be good to meet up again soon for sure.

    Thanks Yetiman. As I said, I am running the X firm spring and will see how we go. Hopefully it will loosen up, but I already have reservations regarding the spring. The firm spring may be the way ahead, only time will tell. I am about sixteen and a half stone and selected the X firm based on my lyric.

    As with our previous chat about totem springs i rode mine for a few weeks with an x-firm and found it harsh on the hands.I weigh a bit less than you but i would only ever get about 65/70% travel even doing 4-5 ft to flat with no compression damping on.I know use a firm with about 5 clicks of lsc on and 2 from max on hi speed and its a much better ride and still handles the larger hits.All i need now is a helius fr to fit them too.

  48. #48
    steep fast and loose :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0007
    well, I had an Mpire before it got stolen in June in Morzine.

    So I had to hit all summer the DH runs with my Helius FR (2008) I took off my Lyric and set it up with a 66 RCX. Well I have to say, I did exactly the same time as i use to do with my Mpire. I did pass the same gap without a problem.

    I was dead tired at the end of each ride cause you take much more abuse (your body) but in the end, the bike was much lighter, easier to move. It's only on really destroy section that I really missed my Mpire. On big gaps also... the rear was so much smoother with the Mpire....

    pictures are really crappy, but that's what my FR has been taking all summer long :





    I had to say, even if the Helius Fr is NOT a real dh rig, it's possible to use it as long as you take care of being smooth with it and service the bike more often (checking bolts, axles etc...)

    Love this bike !
    0007 - this perfectly captures what i've been trying to tell people for a while - the FR is so much bike, unless it's being shuttled / Alped, then it's overkill for simple trail use.
    great pictures BTW - Any more action shots

  49. #49
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    yes more action!!!

    a friend with his new Helius FR


    sorry for the quality it picture from a mobile phone

    good job!!!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lecht_Rocks
    the FR's ability to run 180mm forks without over-slackening the geom too much...
    TLR, that's the important point. I think that the FR is capable from trails to local DHs just because the HA and STA are trail-ready and the bike is bomb proof respectively. I really hate superslack HA since you don't have much control of the front wheel. Yo got to ride this bikes with very smooth settings, and I really prefer stiffer suspensions and agile angles to get more responsiveness in the very tecnhical and singletrack sections. It's a compromise between high speed-jump sections and tricky/tecnhical sections.
    Have you ever ride a Versus Blitz? It gets a HA of 68 with Totems. And, since the frame is around 4.5kg, it allows you to ride very hard but also to pedal, quite slow, but better than other freeride bikes (ie, Sx-Trail, Vp-free, Gambler FR, etc,).

  51. #51
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    Finally....Complete with decals.

    Finally completed. Loving this rig, especially with the coil totems. Did the red route at Dalby a few weeks ago and it climbed well, although I plan to change the DH tyre/tube combo for AM duties, perhaps the HR in single ply with smaller tubes - should rid about a kilo of rubber making climbing quicker.

    For me, this is how the bike should have been from the start, a real trail cruncher! Now just need to get more ride time in and get the shock dialled.
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  52. #52
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    Wooooooooo hooooooooo well worth the wait mate - she looks gorg all built up! The black and white look dam good.. hope you are having fun dialing her in.

  53. #53
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    Just out of interest, would anybody like to draw up a comparrison to the Knolly DT? I have seen that you can put a larger rear shock on the DT to give 7inches of rear travel as apposed to 6.3 inches standard. How does the DT compare to the FR, on paper they look almost identical but has anybody ridden both and give us some input?

  54. #54
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    I think Whafes buddy has one I believe so he might be able to give some input... I had a long hard look at a vtach when getting my bigger bike so I have don’t a bit of digging on the knollys. They look superb but are a wee bit heavy.

    Attaching the longer shock does mean you can’t adjuist the geo according to Noel. Personally I would like to have seen the DT with 170 of travel but im not sure what difference it makes.

    Key differences as I see it

    Knolly has adjustable angles
    Knolly has adjustable wheelbase
    Knolly is probably the only AM bike stiffer than the FR
    Nicolai is lighter and the knolly does cross the boundary to even to heavy for me
    Both have great workmanship

    If I was buying again I would have a tough time deciding between that and the FR as the adj geo would allow it to run comfortably in the alps for sure. If they were the same weight I would go for the Knolly.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karve
    I think Whafes buddy has one I believe so he might be able to give some input... I had a long hard look at a vtach when getting my bigger bike so I have donít a bit of digging on the knollys. They look superb but are a wee bit heavy.

    Attaching the longer shock does mean you canít adjuist the geo according to Noel. Personally I would like to have seen the DT with 170 of travel but im not sure what difference it makes.

    Key differences as I see it

    Knolly has adjustable angles
    Knolly has adjustable wheelbase
    Knolly is probably the only AM bike stiffer than the FR
    Nicolai is lighter and the knolly does cross the boundary to even to heavy for me
    Both have great workmanship

    If I was buying again I would have a tough time deciding between that and the FR as the adj geo would allow it to run comfortably in the alps for sure. If they were the same weight I would go for the Knolly.
    Good topic, if I wasnt lets say a Nicolai freak, I would be on a Knolly. My buddy GB loves his Knolly, it is indeed stiff, i dont think it is stiffer than my FR lets say. It is a great bike, I still feel it is heavy. GB pedals it well, I dont think it would be the business in all day pedaling where by I feel I could all day on the FR...

    The workmanship is indeed stunning, again I may well be biased, but after looking and cleaning my ION in detail and having a quick fiddle with the FR, I think Nicolai slightly out does Knolly on the build quality on frames, but the KNolly is still way way up there for me...

    The V Tach is a beast, I rode a buddies at Whistler, it was to small for me, but I got a feel for it, the travel is fantastic and the frame can take a severe beating.....

    Both awesome bikes, I will give GB's another blat on Sunday morning....





    Knolly DT in Flight....



    Helius FR in flight.....

    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Whafe,

    since you use your FR for touring also, i was wondering how often you use the Talas system on uphills, since you also have a fairly low cockpit with no spacers unter the stem?

    Thanks!

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testmaen
    Whafe,

    since you use your FR for touring also, i was wondering how often you use the Talas system on uphills, since you also have a fairly low cockpit with no spacers unter the stem?

    Thanks!
    T Maen - Where we ride mostly in New Zealand, there are no real sustained climbs so do not use it, BUT if I go to other areas, or where I have long climbs, I for sure reduce the travel. It helps the bike climb even better than at 160mm....

    I seem to be an odd ball if I read things well, it seems most think the travel adjust is a waste and not needed, I disagree totally. I think it is a quick easy feature, that works a treat...

    I think when most look at the side on view of my FR that is wouldnt be comfortable, with the as you say lowish cockpit, along with short stem, but in fact it is super comfy and all round great for extended rides.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Interesting points there guys. I must admit, the weight of the DT does border on the 'heavy' and that would be with tyres such as the Big Betty and even heavier with some dual plys attached but it would still pedal nicely, I think I can draw this conclusion as my FR at present weights in at about 39lb all geared up for FR/DH.

    I do love the look of the DT, I might even go as far as to say it is quite stunning. Would be interested to learn how it rides in the 7inch mode with the non adjustable geo.

    It would be great if Whafe could perhaps throw a leg over GBs and give us some kind of comparrison perhaps?

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by lornibear
    Interesting points there guys. I must admit, the weight of the DT does border on the 'heavy' and that would be with tyres such as the Big Betty and even heavier with some dual plys attached but it would still pedal nicely, I think I can draw this conclusion as my FR at present weights in at about 39lb all geared up for FR/DH.

    I do love the look of the DT, I might even go as far as to say it is quite stunning. Would be interested to learn how it rides in the 7inch mode with the non adjustable geo.

    It would be great if Whafe could perhaps throw a leg over GBs and give us some kind of comparrison perhaps?
    Hi All.

    On our usual Sunday morning ride, I started the ride on GB's Knolly Del T. I felt it was quite good to start the ride on GB's bike not my FR. Let me start by saying, I DONT like the 09 DHX Air on the Knolly. It is good on landings from jumps, but overall I dont like how it reacts and works etc on this frame.... It is indeed rideable for sure, but I think the air shock lets the bike down...

    Back to the ride. I enjoy the Knolly DT, it is a very nice bike. I feel to me it is not as Spritely to ride lets say compared to the FR, GB agreed with this also. In the air the Knolly DT is not as nimble lets say. It is for sure to me a bike that feels far more how I or we define in a broad sense a slack angle hardcore AM or FR bike. Where as the FR feels a little more racey, but at the same time, burly and can handle quite some abuse... The Knolly is indeed far heavier also, this is not so so noticable in normal pedalling, but I think one would be worn out slightly quicker....

    I am not as good at some as explaining feleings and differences, I am more a stop whinging and get riding type..

    After all that, if I didnt own or was not in love with Nicolai bikes, I would more than likely be on a Knolly.... The workmanship is great, the service is very good, and it is for sure a bike that Noel truly has built for the North Shore....

    Get busy on it !!!
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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