Ok, so maybe not officially but I'm thinking, now that Nicolai have responded to pressure and committed to 44/56 headtubes and 142mm rear dropouts and made some design improvements to the Ion chassis overall and it seems to weigh a similar amount to an AM/AC, it might be time to consider what an Ion15-29 might look like.
I'm very very happy with my AC29-150mm (ok 148mm) and 66.8 deg HA but I am a big fan of the Ion looks and the low CofG it appears to have. likely as not it would be very much the same as my current bike just look different but, if I could just stop that itch ;-)
So I'm thinking of this:
150mm rear travel with RP23 CTD 216x63mm shock
150mm Fox F34 fork (555mm A2C)
67deg Head angle (zs44/56 with Angleset)
74deg seat tube angle
470mm seat tube length
454mm chainstays with 142x12 post mount dropouts.
40mm BB drop
XX1 crank 170mm arms with 30t chainring
MRP Micro G2 SL chainguide
10-42 rear cassette & chain
XX1 rear derailleur
Enve Carbon AM wheels
XTR trail brakes 203fr/180r
Point One Spit Second Stem 50mm
Easton Havoc carbon bar 750mm
OZ riders grips
Saevid S1.2 saddle
Target weight 28lbs with pedals.
There, I can see it already.
Last edited by the_pilot; 08-24-2012 at 11:33 AM.
Sounds great but it's not going to weight 28lbs. 29lbs maybe, but still doubtful given the size of the wheels.
That build right there, is very like my AM which weighs 29lbs but has lighter wheels than the Enves and a lighter drive train.
You need help!
But I like it!
That build right there is my current AC29 150mm which comes in at 28bs inc pedals.
with almost that drivetrain, a slightly lighter11-36 XX cassette and an xtr crank with Straitline silent guide and xtr shadow plus mech (heavier crank/guide setup by 150g compared to X0/MRP blingring/MRP micro G2SL)
Don't forget things like my saddle and seat clamp only weigh 90g complete ;-) Saving 1/2lb over a normal 'light saddle'. The bar and stem only 330g (Kinesis Strut F750 carbon on the way at 80g lighter than the Havoc). My wheels are 1690g with heavyish Chris King Hubs and 32 CX ray spokes each. All non safety critical bolts are Ti. That's with 330g flats too not 200g Ti clip less pedals. New RP23 CTD is light too. 60g lighter than a vip'r. 350g lighter than CCDB air. Fox F34 29 float is 2kg. Same as a Deville.
I based it on the fact my AC29 frame weighs the same as my old AM 26". It was posted on here that the Ion16 is slightly lighter than an AM so guessing an Ion29 would reflect that, maybe a little lighter than my AC.
If the frame comes in at 3.3kg. 27.5lb definitely doable with tough components. Mostly carbon and none cheap. But hey this is the Nicolai forum. We don't do cheap!
My mistake. Bar and stem 303g not 330g. Marginal gains and all that ;-)
Interestingly that is the weight that they told me they were working to and if that is the frame, shock and mounting hardware, then maybe 28lbs is possible, especially as you're using a string hamock for a saddle
If the frame comes in at 3.3kg.
Seriously, how do you get a saddle that weighs that little?
Based on what they have shown us so far though, the Ion 16 with shock is coming in just over 3.3kg, which I think makes it fractionally heavier or fractionally lighter than an AM.
Hehe my saddle weighs 72g. It's very comfy, just takes a year to harden the backside up ;-)
I actually meant 3.3kg for the frame only (incl. mech hanger)
excluding shock and hardware for 28lbs. My AC/AM29 is 3250g without the shock. RP23 CTD weighs 235g with the hardware.
That's carrying 50g I lard in the Angleset too. If using a std headset can lose another 50g.
Did Lance Armstrong procrastinate so much about weight I wonder.....?
Only of the drugs he was taking.
Originally Posted by The_Lecht_Rocks
You know I don't think he did.
Did Lance Armstrong procrastinate so much about weight I wonder.....?
But man did he band on about pedal strikes!
I am liking it, but you knew that already
The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"
I've put a proposal to Chris Thomas at Nicolai, the designer that worked on my AC/AM 29, let see what he says ;-) 67deg HA on the steeper setting of the eccentric linkage pivot ;-)
Whafe, what travel would you be looking for? I am after 150mm rear as I have now on my AC. I can't see going to 120mm now as it pedals so well with the RP23 CTD and a 120mm fork, even a stoopid light one, is only 300g lighter. I would want up to 150mm fork but you might want a beefier down tube. Goal for me is the same or lighter frame than my current AC and the Fox 150 as we know will be the same weight as the 140mm.
My AC is coming in at 27.5lb with pedals now with 140 FOX with burly kit and 1x10, sub 30lb is no problem.
Would you look to replace the big boy AM or add wideer range to the AC so to speak?
So ive exchanged a few emails with Nicolai about the Ion suspension design, differences to the Helius design and the prospect of this bike as a custom and I've met with a pretty favourable response and thoughts of around June next year.
Any other takers. Gonna be based around 150mm travel with the features of the Ion 16 but with big boys wheels.
I've been giving the front mech mount some thought. I don't think I'll need it with XX1 but others might.
I'm thinking direct mount but to the Ibeam section between the BB and the offset seat tube. That way a road style direct mount could be used (As Cube uses actually) to eliminate the yre clearance problem experienced with the Sram direct mount (no bigger than 2.25)
Alternatively could consider an e-mount style to the BB...hmmm
Originally Posted by norcosam
Originally Posted by geetee1972
Actually Chris has gone now. dealing with a different guy, who's also really interested in this concept for himself too ;-) always helpful..
...perhaps we should rather try to persuade him to design a RC29.
I'm not sure its needed having built up my AC Midgetman. My AC build for AM comes in at 28lbs with pedals.
If you use a German:A fork with it and run the likes of an xc rim like a BOR or Stans Crest with xc brakes and tyres and 1x10 you can hit 24lb.
The new one doesn't have as much travel flexibility at the back though as mine or the old one you may need to use a shorter stroke shock. Angles will be fine thou. 120mm German:A fork gives 69deg.
funny, just found this thread, been stewing on a similar concept. I've been playing a bunch with what's possible on long travel 29 and finding favorable results. The next step, IMO, is a bump to 150 mm travel (currently have a 135 and a 140 rig), slack out the front end a bit more and tighten up the CS. I ran a 66.5 deg setup at whistler this year and it was darn good but a little steep for Whistler tech trails at full pace and general 30mph riding. I'm thinking more like 66-65.5 for the next project. The other KEY ingredient here is pulling in the CS to around 17.25 ish (438mm). Accomplish this through a dedicated 1x11 design to just clear a 2.35 Hans Dampf, no clearance consideration for FD. Might require a slightly steeper ST and resulting shorter ETT but reach should be able to remain pleasantly generous. Oh and a 100 mm HT (on a med) would go a long way to keeping the front end to a reasonable height. The idea is a long travel slayer with a super short (for a 29) rear and a long, stable front. I think Wafe's AM/AFR beast came in around 17.6 CS IIRC, so squeezing another 7 mm or so out of the CS should be possible.
Anyway, good to see this dialogue. Would love to hear more more from you guys and details on Nicolai's thoughts.
Wafe, The_Pilot, pipe up!
Last edited by Err; 11-09-2012 at 10:13 PM.
I reckon we must be up to 5 individuals now that want this frame.
I'm definitely interested if Nicolai can get the numbers right. I've been thinking for a while that with 1x drivetrains growing in popularity, that it's high time we see a really short chain stay, long travel 29. I know Whafe got his current AM/AFR hybrid to 446.9 which is roughly 17.6". I'd like to see how much farther they can take it with a design that's not limited by FD compatibility and further enabled by a seat tube that's forward and out of the way. 438 mm might be a tall order, but somewhere close to that and we could have a game changer in terms of aggressive riding on 29" wheels. Long front, short rear, that's where we need to go here folks.
Where the heck is Whafe an the The_Pilot???? Ugh, probably out riding. 30" of snow hitting here now so I have lots of internet surfing time on my hands when I'm not out snow sliding.
Ha, I'm here, broken to at the moment so not much riding. After much discussion Nicolai wouldnt go any shorter than 454mm on my AM/AC29 and Cyril ended up increasing his from 447mm to 454mm the same as mine, that's with 150mm of rear travel. That is with a significantly offset seat tube.
So my current AC has 150mm rear travel and 140mm front (Until I get around to sorting a Fox CTD fork to go 150mm OR Scoop?? A little bird told me that Rockshox are bringing out a 160mm 29er fork next year...)
I think not designing for the FD helps (Certainly with tyre clearance. I can't use my 2.4 ardent with an FD due to the FD design more than anything (I don't need to with 1x10 28/11-36) but the axle path and not whacking the ST are the key constraints Nicolai were designing for wh mine not FD, along with big tyre e.g. 2.4 Ardent compatibility fore/aft.
Personally I think the CS length is a slight red herring, Obviously it helps keep the wheelbase down for tight switchbacks etc but I don't think it affects the ability of the bike to be popped and jumped. Too many other factors come into that like the dynamic CofG of rider on bike, BB height etc...I think my AC29 is easier to manual than my old AM26
I don't know the axle path of the Ion Vs the AC so that will be interesting to get Nicolai's view. If the rear CS could be shorter, 450mm or slightly less I wouldn't complain but I also don't think it would impact my desire for the bike either.
As for head angle well that is a balance isn't it, like anything depending on how downhill oriented you wanted to go. I don't get to ride whistler so sub 66.5deg would be too slack for me, I currently run 66.7deg and am thinking of increasing that to 67.5 for general riding, stability is barely affected in my experience but my general experience isn't Whistler at full pace!!
The best option here is to use the angleset, configure the bike at around 67.5deg basic to allow between sub 66deg and 68.5 on an angleset which should cover all the bases.
However on this Ion we mustn't forget the eccentric linkage bolt which may well reduce headangle by 1deg and lower the BB by 0.5" so even more flexibility.
My headtube is 110mm for the record but has an external angleset. Now Nicolai have relented and produced a 44/56 taper it can be zero stack and reduce the stack by 15mm.
Things may be calming down a little at Nicolai now after Eurobike so I may send Max another email on this subject.
I am of the view that 150mm rear is about the max sensible for a 29, 160mm front may be too much in terms of wheelbase too except for maximum gravity situations. It would be ok if it could be travel reduced for some of the time but also if it is relatively light. My AC29 is an all round bike as I would want this Ion to be. The target would again be 28.5lbs so hopefully not a much heavier frame than I have now but that remains to be seen if its possible. It seems to be the case for the Ion16 Vs Helius AM so if that carries through then it could be ok.
I'll write to Max and see what he says...
He was very receptive, although non of the other Senior guys have commented, as he was also very interested in such a frame....
Ah ha, thanks the_pilot.
So to kind of pull together a few past discussions, here is Cyril's build and here is Whafe's AM/AFR.
I'm not going to try to bring all of the discussion points of those threads to this one but the short version is fitting the 29" wheel in to a 447 Chainstay with a 2.4" tire is not a problem. The problem is that with 140+ travel you run into issues of hitting the seat tube. Whafe's frame appears to have the seat tube offset a bit further forward than Cyril's and I see that he appears to be running a 2.4 Ardent on the rear. Not sure what's up there.
Cyril had his chainstay redone and extended from 448 to 452 mm clear a 2.4 tire.
I have a couple 29'ers that have right around 454mm CS and they're both great bikes. My main trail bike has an angleset in it with the HTA set at 67.5º which I find to be just perfect for AM/Trail riding. Getting up and down tight switchbacks is no problem at all. I can manual and jump my bike no problem. Here's a little vid we did this summer to give you an idea of how I "trail ride" my 29'er.
So, as a point of progression, I'm interested in trimming the CS, even it if means a 75º STA and/or the ST shifted forward. I primarily hoping to gain a more playful feel, a rear-end that's easier to back into corners and roll into manuals with a bit less effort. As for the HTA, I already have 2 bikes in the 67.5-68º range and am looking to go a bit slacker this time around. The "chip" system in Ion16 allows for 1º of adjustment so perhaps a 66/67º would be ideal for me.
The key here is getting the CS at least down to around 448 and no longer than say 450. I'm really not worried about a steep STA and resulting super-short ETT, this will not be my primary bike for going uphill. I think the other points of geometry that I'm after are pretty basic.
It's disappointing to hear that perhaps 454 mm is as short as we can go at 150mm. I might be rather inclined to back down to 140 mm or so if would allow for 448 mm CS.
A couple other interesting reference points on CS length:
Banshee Prime - 130 mm travel - 443 to 448 mm adj CS length
Yeti SB95 - 135 mm travel - 444.5 CS length (does not fit 2.35/2.4 tires without rubbing ST)
Santa Cruz Tallboy LTc - 135 mm travel - 455 CS length
Niner WFO - 140 mm travel - 455 CS length
Clearly a trend towards either reducing travel (Prime) or living with a 455 CS, or being compromised on tire size. Hmm...
Last edited by Err; 11-12-2012 at 10:11 AM.