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  1. #1
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    Ion15 29 Uncut - Idea, Design, Manufacture to trail - words & pictures

    So some of you reading this will have seen this thread I started a while back suggesting that the Ion platform would translate into a great all round/all mountain 29er.

    I've called this bike/model/project Ion15 29 but not sure what we/Nicolai will end up calling it, it'll do for now.

    New Ion15?

    Some background:

    In late 2011 I started thinking about a longer travel 29er for my type of riding and for racing Enduro on fast flowing trails. This kind of bike just wasn't available on the market, 150mm travel, light, long, low, maneuverable and with the ability to go slack.

    I had a lot of discussion with Whafe, Cyril and Dipper particularly, but others too off this forum and many, many emails to and from Nicolai.

    Whafe had pioneered the genre with Nicolai, but I didn't want such a hard hitting bike with the weight that brings, it had to be light enough for big days out with a lot of uphill, basically Enduro racing and all round riding. Cyril had commissioned a similar bike for Enduro so we discussed his design and specification, oh did I mention it had to be slack...

    So eventually Nicolai and I settled on geometry, pretty short chainstays, head angles that allowed a lot of flexibility using an angleset/front shock mounts, low BB, long top tube for short stem/wide bar and a target of as close to 150mm travel at the rear as possible.

    In early 2012 this bike arrived and I've spent the year thrashing it, messing about with geometry and learning. It was specified to be really flexible in terms of angles but in a way that wouldn't screw up the riding position/handling so I could get a good idea of what worked and what I really wanted/thought would make it ideal for Enduro and fast all round riding in all kinds of terrain. As an aside the build came in at 28.5lbs with pedals and a dropper post. Not too shabby.

    So fairly quickly I started to get a good idea of the geo and features I wanted.The geo and angles the likes of Cyril and I have moved to with the custom bikes has now materialised in the 2013 AC, they are pretty close, so Nicolai listen, are open to trying and testing stuff, this is good! Mine has a little more travel and is a little slacker but pretty close. There are some things I wanted to change though...

    So mid 2012 I started thinking, Some of the things I wanted weren't available when I asked....then the Ion16 surfaced and I started the Ion15 29 thread..

    Well a few other Nicolai enthusiasts expressed serious interest in trying to progress the idea and we gained a little internal momentum.

    So with the prospect of more than one order for a bike of this nature I approached Nicolai....

    The future:

    After kicking off some dialogue with Marcel at Nicolai, submitting some design parameters and then Marcel talking to Vincent and Kalle, it would appear that we have the go ahead for this project from the top man.

    Based on the key design objectives of long TopTube, low BB and slack with 150mm of travel at the rear, the ability to take up to a 160mm fork (Due 2013), chain stays that can take a 2.4 Maxxis Ardent/2.35 Hans Dampf but are as short as practical, keeping the new bush design, eccentric shock mount, no front mech so no constraints etc.

    This is NOT intended to be a DH 29er but more an AM that can be built with the latest 1x10 kit and light but stiff wheels to create a bike that you can ride all day, uphill too, and then hammer the descents, much like the new 16.

    Nicolai have concluded that design and machining changes to the shock lever, BB/seat tube area are needed, probably some shock curve analysis to make sure we are getting the right suspension characteristics in addition to the usual geometry etc possibly some tube changes to accommodate a max 571mm A2C fork.

    So Nicolai have suggested we document the whole process here, with their full support. That means factory photos and insight into the whole process from this initial idea, through the design process, the engineering development and production, hopefully concluding in April 2013 with the new ION 15 29 hitting the trail, maybe getting first dirt under the tyres around Nicolai HQ, you never know.

    I think this is a fantastic opportunity, and kudos to Nicolai, to provide an insight into everything that goes into taking a bike from idea to trail with a customer directly involved, including photos and words from the factory all the way through. The whole story.

    So far Whafe, Dipper and myself are in for this. Any others interested please let me know. Obviously we will have individual requirements in terms of sizing like top tube/seat tube lengths etc but the key design objectives and frame features are shared.

    I'll post up the initial tech specifications soon and we will go from there. This thing is gonna rip..
    Last edited by the_pilot; 12-14-2012 at 05:36 AM.
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  2. #2
    Err
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    Great news to see this progress. I am following closely and depending on final specifications, I might be in for one.

  3. #3
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    Woohoo!

    This build goes way beyond what nicolai would normally do for a full custom. Tube lengths and thickness is generally your lot. This will be a full ground up build. between Phil, whafe and myself we have 6 iterations of nicolai 29er experience between us. 3 off the peg and 3 custom. Hopefully we'll be able draw on our experiences(and that of Marcel and other forum members)and come up with a sub 30lb, 150/160mm trail bike that climbs like an xc bike and descends like a downhiller. Not much to ask then should be a doddle
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  4. #4
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    Actually thats soon to be 7 iterations as I've a new 2013 frame due any day now
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  5. #5
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    Wow that's a really cool post, I will follow it with nterest, because it might be my next bike. This year is downhill bike year, and as for next year I will see :-)
    Never enough singletracks !

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    Of course Dipper if, in the end you had no desire to incur the extra weight up to 160mm fork might incur in the down tube, and we will be able to determine what that difference is, then that should be fine.

    Based on Vincent's posted weight for the AM in 26' format the Ion16 comes in 200g lighter than an AM which was 3.1kg give or take a few grams with an ano finish. Reading across 3.3kg would seem reasonable to expect.

    Here is the geometry information Marcel at Nicolai is working with for an initial drawing

    Ion15 29er (150mm rear travel)

    -150mm rear travel with 216x63mm shock

    -Fork reference 555mm excluding ZS headset (3mm stack). Maximum 565mm fork reference
    [Option to change this to 565mm reference (150mm) with 571mm max (160mm)]

    -67deg Head angle (zs44/56)

    -74deg (Question - What seat tube angle would avoid the tyre (2.4") hitting under maximum suspension compression or is this not an issue with Ion ST offset?) [It is now clear we will need to change the seat tube offset to deliver 150mm of rear travel so 74deg effective seat tube angle may be possible still]

    -470mm seat tube length (Would change by customer)

    -610mm ETT (Would change by customer)

    -450mm CS (This is a big question, whether 447mm for example can work with a Hans Dampf 2.35 or Maxxis Ardent 2.4) it would be good to know how short is possible and where the restriction is?

    It can be assumed that no front derailleur is needed so no mount is required. Designing for XX1 1x11, 1x10 or Hammerschmidt. So ideally the suspension would work well in pedaling with between a 28t-32t front chain ring.

    - 40mm Bottom Bracket (BB) drop

    -340mm BB height at std. 67deg Head Angle (Considering the Ion eccentric pivot = -1deg/7mm BB drop)
    Aka chainline...

  7. #7
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    Marcel Lauxtermann, who is working on the design for us, rides and races Enduro so he should have some experience to bring to this project too.

    We should get the first draft drawings pretty soon now. Nicolai would prefer the production to run in parallel with an Ion16 run so initial thoughts are this would be during the second production period sometime in Feb-Mar 2013.
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  8. #8
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    This is very cool. Subscribing for sure.
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  9. #9
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    Yeah ha, in fact a whole lotta yeah ha..

    Sam, did I just hear you say what i think you said? 26 Kiddies wheels to a 650b teenager wheels and then you will go to adult wheels = BEAUTIFUL...

    This project is going to be rocking great...

    FOr me as we have said, the ability to handle a 2.35 Hans D tyre on the rear is a must...

    More will be revealed as we go along....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  10. #10
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    For now I only have 26 wheels bikes, but why not an all mountain bike a 29er, I still have to think about it and try once before :-)
    650b is for me too similar to 26 "kiddies", so there is no real interest IMO :-)
    Never enough singletracks !

  11. #11
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    Ion15 29 Pinion

    Hello guys, how about Ion15 29 with Pinion (as an option)? I know it adds some weight, but maybe somebody might be interested...
    Last edited by persing; 12-14-2012 at 05:20 AM.

  12. #12
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    It's taken a little convincing to get here persing.
    You can get the AC with a Pinion now, which IanPinder has.

    For this Ion project, not only is it a different world of engineering changes It is just too big a weight penalty for me and I just don't need the extra range,
    I don't destroy mechs on a regular basis. It adds approx 1.8kg (4lb) compared to a 1x11 or 1x10 drivetrain. Thats too much to bear for me. My idea of an all day all mountain schredder is 30lb or under and I just can't see that happening with the Pinion, but its eminently possible with high end parts for this project.
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  13. #13
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    I understand your point the_pilot. I too don't want to have a heavy bike. Not that it would be a problem to pedal it but it is simply too heavy for carrying it if needed (at least for me). But the idea of getting rid of the derailleur is also very tempting.

    I would like to get some 29er in my stable, but I can't afford to have two bikes at the moment and I can't let my beloved Ibis Mojo HD go either.

    All in all your idea of Ion15 29 is almost the same as mine so I will follow this thread very closely. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you to successfuly finish this project.

  14. #14
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    I would be real interesed in this project for my self just want to see where
    It ends up this is big in the US the SC Tallboy LTc is big that would be a great
    Option to that bike

  15. #15
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    We've been having a little debate over BB height. My current custom AC29e is 147mm of rear travel and has a BB height around 350mm. This feels good and I've never picked up pedal strikes even with 175 cranks. My original intent was to aim for 340mm BB height and that's where we have started with the Ion15 for the first draft drawings.

    Based on the fact that the eccentric pivot will reduce head angle (HA) by 1deg and lower BB height by 7mm and this bike will have a little more travel at 150mm my current feeling is to move to 347mm for a BB height with the basic HA of 67deg.
    Thus switching to the slack mode would give an unsagged BB height of 340mm at 66deg HA.
    With the more progressive nature of the Ion suspension curve (At least that's what I'm led to believe so far. We haven't yet seen the curves for this bike, not that far along yet)
    This should give enough pedal clearance (particularly if 170mm cranks used) but also give great descending and cornering potential.

    Given we will be running a ZS44/56 headset, an angleset or fixed angle headset would also enable an easy 66.5/65.5 deg 343.5mm/336.5mm scenario for those looking for a more gravity oriented rig in steeper/faster/rougher terrain e.g. Whistler or similar. with only a 0.5 deg headset in.

    Any thoughts.
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  16. #16
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    Relative to BB height, folks have already chimed in about wanting to run a big tires and Anglesets.
    The Dampf in particular is a very tall tire, wish I had then number handy but if you're arriving at 340 BB height on a nominal 29" tire, it's going to be a bit higher with a Dampf.

    Then if you throw in an Angleset, your BB height creeps up again due to the stack height of the lower cup.

    All of the sudden, that 340 mm (13.38") starting point could become 345 mm (13.58") or more and the BB isn't all that low any more. And in the slack/low position, your BB height is more like 338 mm (13.3") BB instead of the 333 mm (13.1") originally calculated.

    This is all just guess work on the actual numbers but the line of thinking is sound. This is precisely where I've ended up having used both Dampfs and Anglesets on a few 29ers now.

    The new low-stack Works Cups for 44/56 headtubes help out a bit as their new lower cup is only a few mm of stack height, but still. The Dampf is not all that wide, but it's really tall.

    My vote would be to hold at 340/333 mm.

    Just keep these factors in mind. Good discussion.

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    Getting the compromise right is important. Sure low is good(to a point) but it has to be able to climb techy stuff as well. That'll be the benefit of being able to adjust the geo. so we can run a good all rounder in the high/steep(relatively speaking!) setting and drop the bb by 7mm on the low/slack position. I think we're in the right ballpark give or take a few mm. 170 cranks are always an option if we go too low!
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    What's the stack on a ZS Angleset? I was assuming 3mm. We could take that into account when designing the fork reference height. but it does make it important to know what fork is the main one. So running the Fox F34 at 150mm with 562mm a2c if we designed for 345mm incl. that.
    Also rim width plays its part. i'm running Enve AM which I think are 25mm internal, must check that. Are HD the same sort of height as an Ardent 2.4.

    But then using a RS 571 a2c 160 fork would raise the front by 9mm so BB by maybe 3mm?

    I have an OnOne chunky Monkey to try along with a Smorgasboard 2.25, both of which look pretty big. Might check out the Chunky Monkey on the rear too and look at holding hrs on the Enve rim for reference. Also I'll measure the Ardent 2.4.
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  19. #19
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    Unfortunately the 44/56 Angleset for a tapered steerer uses an external cup so the lower stack height is around 15 mm. This is due to the fact that Cane Creek gets all of its offset out of the lower cup.

    Works Components recently released a 44/56 angled headset that has a very low lower cup stack height, around 3 mm, by building offset into both ends.

    Edit -
    I just went and measured a Hans Dampf beaded up on a Sun Charger TR wheel (width = 28 external, 22.8 internal) and the tire measured 747 mm (29.4") tall. I quadruple checked the measurement and used a level to make sure I was getting an accurate reading on the tape measure. This tire is about 1/3 to 1/2 worn and has been mounted for a few months. As a side note, Schwalbes tend to "grow" a bit after they've been beaded up tubeless for a while. So a new tire, recently beaded up is going to measure a little smaller. This tire is close to as tall as one would measure, minus a few mm for the wear on it. All in, this tire measures about 10mm taller than 29" and therefore adds about 5 mm to BB height calculated on a nominal 29".

    Hope this helps
    Last edited by Err; 12-15-2012 at 07:43 PM.

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    Thanks Err, I think it does. I will check my Ardents too as this could be important if we all want to ride big tyres. Nicolai take into account wheel circumference when designing so as long as we are clear on the that the BB should be right.

    I am obviously wrong on the Angleset, which means I don't lose anything by having my current 1.5" HT then. The main reason I originally wanted 44/56 was to run a ZS Angleset. I was sure there was a ZS option.

    Nevertheless, certainly for me, I am sure that 67/66 will be spot on and so in theory saving 100g and running a normal headset will be good. If you needed to drop a degree you can still run a fixed cup set, so all good. The Angleset has done its job for me in allowing me to play around with the one I have to find the angles that suit me.
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  21. #21
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    From my view, the CC Angleset is a not to bad piece of kit, however I was never able to get it to tighten correctly and always more or less had a sloppy front end... I removed it and went with a non Angleset and all is good...

    The ability to handle a decent sized Hans D and Ardent etc etc in the rear is paramount for me..
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe View Post
    From my view, the CC Angleset is a not to bad piece of kit, however I was never able to get it to tighten correctly and always more or less had a sloppy front end... I removed it and went with a non Angleset and all is good...

    The ability to handle a decent sized Hans D and Ardent etc etc in the rear is paramount for me..
    Yeap, the Works Cups are problem free by comparison. No gimballs to shift and creeeeeeeeek

    FWIW, to keep the angleset quiet, "shim" it by coating it generously in anti-sieze. I have several silent ones in my fleet now using this method.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Err View Post
    Yeap, the Works Cups are problem free by comparison. No gimballs to shift and creeeeeeeeek

    FWIW, to keep the angleset quiet, "shim" it by coating it generously in anti-sieze. I have several silent ones in my fleet now using this method.
    If I went back to using it, I will look at doing that, appreciate the heads up...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  24. #24
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    Angleset has never caused me a problem but I've always used copperslip (anti seize ) however ideally we will get the head angle right and not need one! But an 'angleset' as opposed to 'the' is always an option to fine tune individual requirements.

    Dipper has been measuring his backside off lately and I we have concluded, empirically, that 150mm travel with 450mm chainstays and ardent or a HansDampf is certainly do-able with 5-7mm for mud clearance at the front.
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  25. #25
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    Cant wait to check it out.
    I am still loving my bike

  26. #26
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    Cool project, would like to see pictures

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    So we are still working on the development of this bike.

    Marcel at Nicolai worked on an initial view of the geometry which looked like this. This geometry still has 454mm chainstays.

    The main problem is the clearance to the seat tube with 145mm or more of travel whilst maintaining the kinematics of the Ion 16, which is a key feature of what we are trying to achieve and the Eccentric Trail Key or ET.

    We have been discussing the desired/most important attributes a lot between myself and Dipper, I think we have concluded that the major opportunity here is to:
    - Improve the agility over our custom AC 29er bike by trying to use shorter CS than the 454mm we have
    - Be able to run a big rear tyre (Schwalbe HansDampf or Ardent 2.4) whilst keeping at least 145mm of travel
    - Ensure the BB is right for the tyres intended, so assuming 745mm diameter, thus keeping CofG low and keeping the stability.
    -Keep the front as low as possible using ZS headset. .
    -Retain the features of Ion features so the suspension action (kinematics of the Ion 16 26" with the progressive to linear rear linkage), weight, post mount brake, improved bearings etc

    You can see in these drawings how in the low setting, at the moment with 145mm of travel the clearance is too small between the tyre and ST based on a 750mm Diameter Ardent.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ion15 29 Uncut - Idea, Design, Manufacture to trail  - words & pictures-ion29-version-1.jpg  

    Ion15 29 Uncut - Idea, Design, Manufacture to trail  - words & pictures-ion-29-version-1-fully-compressed.jpg  

    Last edited by the_pilot; 08-29-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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  28. #28
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    So more work has been done on the design now around the BB, kinematics, clearances etc This has resulted in most of the wants being fulfilled

    The latest drawing is here.

    This shows that we can achieve 450mm CS and fit the big tyres, with enough clearance to the ST, with a suitably wide rim
    The HD and Ardent have been measured on Enve AM carbon and NoTubes Flow rims. The new Flow is 1mm or so wider internally than the AM carbon so will give a very similar overall diameter.

    Wheelbase is the same as my current custom AC with the same HA but with shorter CS.
    BB heights look good.

    I have some concerns over the steepness of the ST in 'high' or normal trail mode and we have only 0.5deg difference between low and high mode on the head angle.

    I have no experience of a ST angle that steep or what that does to a pedalling position. I guess it can be resolved by having the saddle slightly further back. My current AC has a 74deg ST angle.

    I think we need to give consideration to bringing the ST angle back to 74.5deg in the high mode and accepting that the low mode is perhaps not necessary. Its clear that 74.5deg gives enough clearance to the tyre as that is the seat angle in the low mode now.

    If a slacker head angle is desirable, switching out the headset to a -0.5 or -1deg ZS works components headset may be a better solution, for example if you're riding whistler and want to run with 66deg then that can be done with only a 2mm drop in BB and 10mm increase in wheelbase, that gives a pretty short rear end compared to front centre.

    On a personal note, I am considering if a 10mm shorter ETT would work for me as I am now running an 800mm wide bar, but given what we are trying to do that is just noise!

    You can see the linkage curves here too. The linkage ratio curve is similar now to the Ion 16 26", obviously with less travel so with a lower overall raito, the curve is slightly less progressive from mid to end stroke than the 26" (a little more linear, but not much.

    This is a very different ratio curve to the AC custom I have which is regresive initally in the sag zone but then very progressive for the remainder of the travel.

    So, we can get to 450mm CS and keep the kinematics of the Ion16
    Some further thought on the ST angle, would 75deg be ok and how important the ET key is (In terms of being able to use it)

    I must say I'm pretty stoked about it at this point
    Last edited by the_pilot; 01-29-2013 at 12:54 PM.
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  29. #29
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    That looks very, very nice.

    I might be interested in one, once you got it ripe for production.

    160mm fork compatibility would be a killer feature for me! Not many 29ers do that yet, but it will be the future.

    I wouldn't worry about a 75 degree ST angle.
    Look at the Rocky Mountain full suspension bikes, it works.

    Once sagged a very steep seat tube angle keeps the riding position efficient.
    If you desire a more classic position you can just slide the seat back or go with a setback seat post.

    I'll follow this project really carefully, might just be my next bike. Absolutely what I am looking for.

    My current Stumpjumper FSR 29er is very nice. Can't imagine to go back to a 26er, because of my really long legs. But the 130mm Stumpjumper and fork are just not as burly as the FOX 36 or Lyrik equipped bikes I rode before.

    The Stumpjumper actually blows them away on the descents, but I just want a bit more.

    Greetings Znarf

  30. #30
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    Now I'm itching to see this frame whilst it's still hot off the tig table...

  31. #31
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    Me too. I wasn't in a hurry before but Now I just want it built! Hopefully we'll make the next production run so its here springtime'ish
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    I spent sometime today discussing the design with Marcel at Nicolai, it was very productive to have the dialogue.I proposed some changes and posed some questions last week based upon the post and concerns identified above and Marcel had been looking at the design based on those proposals. I think we have got what we were aiming for

    The seat tube is now 74.5deg in 'high mode' and 75deg in 'low' mode, using a slightly larger offset at the BB.

    The BB pivot is optimised for pedalling with a 28-32T front chainring and should perform very well when out of the saddle.

    Travel remains at 145mm, but we have lifted the BB height to 340mm in high/333mm in low, with 2.4 tyres front and rear (745mm diameter Ardent or HD) and the rear stays are 450mm or 17.6". I am confident from experience this will feel good but also keep pedal strike at bay with 145mm rear travel.

    The linkage curve remains as above for the Ion 29. Its the same linkage arm as the 26" Ion16 and its this, with the revised packaging, that results in the ET key changing the HA by 0.5 deg rather than 1 full deg and the slightly less progressive curve towards the end of the travel.

    Alot of testing was done with the Ion16 and the CCDB air with a HV chamber was found to be a great match. This revised curve looks like it would suit a CCDB air with a LV chamber and work really well.

    The head tube is kept to 120mm keeping the stack down.

    The revised drawing will pull in the ETT to 605mm for me (with 800mm bars) , I think Dipper will keep 610mm. Whafe may well go to 620mm?

    I imagined keeping the 67/66.5 head angles, but I'm just thinking about the fact that we have mismatched travel, 150mm/145mm or possibly 160mm/145mm F&R respectively so will incur between 1.5mm and 4.5mm of additional front sag, its only .08 to .2deg but I wonder whether to change the angles to allow for it, maybe 66.9/66.4...maybe that's a bit too anal given all of the other variables on the trail! (

    So, just waiting for what will hopefully be the final drawing of the frame with my dimensions, then get Dipper and Whafe's dimensions/angles (I'm thinking ST length/ETT/HA as the rest of the design should be sorted now, though I'd suggest staying with the 67/66.5 based on my experience) dialled in too.
    Aka chainline...

  33. #33
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    Sounds awesome! What body parts do I need to sell to get on the proto-type queue?

    I think "mis-matched" travel is the way to go with FS 29ers... and this "Ion 15 29er" looks to be the ticket. With a 160mm fork, I get shudders just thinking about it. Might need to add a drag-chute to my CamelBak!

    The geometry looks dialled, though I usually ride a "medium", so would prefer an ETT of ~595mm, a headtube between 100mm~110mm, and seattube of ~440mm for some crown-jewels clearance!

  34. #34
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    StanleyJ, I ride a medium in terms of the crown jewels and I'm only 5'11|", 470mm is the same ST as a Med Helius AM but I found the med too short at 595mm with a 50mm stem and 800mm bar, I needed a big layback seatpost which affected handling. The top tube finished 70mm lower than the ST height on this bike. It could be made shorter tho.

    I think 120mm is as short as we can go on the HT too. Some fairly chunky tubes to be welded on and Nicolai don't do bends period let alone just to make the TT and DT come together more closely and provide clearance!

    I'm in two minds about the 160mm fork. I like the idea of the travel but the potential weight bothers me. My current bike, the Custom AC29 comes in at 28.5lbs with big tyres and pedals but the Fox F34 Float 29 and I am hoping to bring this one in around the same if the relationship between production AM29 and Helius AM to Ion16 remains. so I suspect a weight of around 3.3kg, which will be great.
    Aka chainline...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    StanleyJ, I ride a medium in terms of the crown jewels and I'm only 5'11|", 470mm is the same ST as a Med Helius AM but I found the med too short at 595mm with a 50mm stem and 800mm bar, I needed a big layback seatpost which affected handling. The top tube finished 70mm lower than the ST height on this bike. It could be made shorter tho.

    I think 120mm is as short as we can go on the HT too. Some fairly chunky tubes to be welded on and Nicolai don't do bends period let alone just to make the TT and DT come together more closely and provide clearance!

    I'm in two minds about the 160mm fork. I like the idea of the travel but the potential weight bothers me. My current bike, the Custom AC29 comes in at 28.5lbs with big tyres and pedals but the Fox F34 Float 29 and I am hoping to bring this one in around the same if the relationship between production AM29 and Helius AM to Ion16 remains. so I suspect a weight of around 3.3kg, which will be great.
    Hmmm, I'm a full 2~3 inches shorter than you, and the only vaguely similar bike in the stable is Canfield Yelli, in a medium with a Fox F34 Talas and 55mm stem/710mm bars. The ETT there is ~605mm, fairly slack seat-tube angle though. However being a reformed roadie, which in turn was a reformed BMXer, used to riding bikes that are short (BMXes!) though also prefer to be more stretched out on a bike (road bike!). The Yelli weighs in at 28lbs, so I personally wouldn't loose much sleep over the fact an FS 29er is "a touch" heavier.

    Shoulders are not wide enough for 800mm bars, though 750ish-mm might work. I would think a 50mm stem would work for me, so maybe a slightly longer ETT on this "Ion 15 29er", dead on 600mm or perhaps a touch longer. I think a 610mm ETT, I'd be venturing into sub-40mm stems!

    And to be fair, the headtube is Zero-stack, so having it a fairly "long" 120mm probably is a non-issue. I would still prefer to have a 150mm fork on it rather than "just" 140mm. As for a 160mm fork, that's just vapourware at this moment and it'll depends on which chassis Fox/Rockshox/whoever make such a fork with. Just here on other forums of MTBR, quite a few people would at least like to see a 160mm Fox 36 29er...

  36. #36
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    Actually my mistake, I only ran a 760mm bar on the Med AM,

    This bike is definitely for a 150mm fork Stanley and I agree the 160mm is in the ether right now so designed to take it that's one thing, but I don't think it should be designed around it, definitely not for me.

    But making this ETT shorter should be no big deal if you wanted one, The ETT needs to be right for you and your bars, its custom after all!

    And why does this thread keep not showing the files I've attached!!!
    Aka chainline...

  37. #37
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    760mm bars makes more sense! As for fork, it's always the rule of thumb +20mm is usually okay, though with how long, longer travel 29er forks are, seems the new-rule-of-thumb is +/-10mm. So in this case, 140mm~160mm, with the design being for 150mm. Now if only Fox will make those 150mm F34s available on the retail channel...

    As for ETT sizing, I know I can get exactly what I want if I go custom... though just going by what the standard sizes where, seems I'm right between a medium and a large, so just talking to myself out loud I'd go down a size rather than up, considering how I'd prefer the bike for its intended application.

    For the images you're trying to upload, tried posting them inline using the [ATTACH]attachmentid[/ATTACH]?

    Testing... (just a Helius AC 29er!), using http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1359252418

    Ion15 29 Uncut - Idea, Design, Manufacture to trail  - words & pictures-helius-ac-29-233r9894_1.jpg



    Edit: Weird... it is only loading intermittently.

  38. #38
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    Okay, just got the revised drawing from Marcel

    This incorporates all of the changes we have asked for packaged in a way I think will work fantastically well. The plan is to keep this design around the 150mm fork a2c but with a down tube that will take up to 160mm...just in case, it will add between 50g and 100g, so one less sausage before a ride

    You can see that we have got the stack down a little and reduced the wheelbase down to 1180mm with 4mm less reach and the shorter CS but with 67deg HA in the high position. In low it will be 66.5deg and approx 1185mm which is 10mm shorter overall than my current AC29 custom.

    I have the go ahead to go to Hoshi for some new graphics, the plan being to base them on those designed for the Ion16 team bike over a raw frame.

    I think we should just call it the Ion29. I can't imagine, at this, time any evolutions. I do think this is as long a travel as you would build a 29 as an AM bike.

    Unfortunately, it turns out demand for the Ion16 has been really big, so we will be looking at a delivery wk 21 unless a second Ion16 batch run is required in which case they can be built at the end of that and could be a few weeks earlier.

    I'm waiting for a few photo's of the design process...for now it will have to do, can't wait now!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ion15 29 Uncut - Idea, Design, Manufacture to trail  - words & pictures-ion29-rev3.jpg  

    Aka chainline...

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    Hmmm, given the "Ion 29er" is designed around a 150mm fork and strong enough for a 160mm... what's the current situation in actually being able to get such a fork in 2013? It would be ace if Rockshox, Fox or anyone else actually offering these at retail level... otherwise, would/could/should Nicolai offer such a fork with the frame as a "chassis"? Exactly like what Niner do with the UFO?

  40. #40
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    I thought I'd replied to this one StanleyJ. iphone fail!

    The Fox F34 Float 29 is available retail, at 150mm if you request it when you order. Certainly in the UK, Mojo will do this.. All 2013 model Fox F34 Float29 can be converted simply with a couple of parts if you already have one.

    More than one industry source has told me that there will be a 571mm A2C crown 29er fork available this next model year from RS, so that's a 160mm fork.
    Aka chainline...

  41. #41
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    Orders are in! Wk 21 delivery in theory..

    160mm forks are definitely coming. There is at least one other 160mm compatible frame design in the works I know of...
    Aka chainline...

  42. #42
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    A Specialized or a Santa Cruz 160mm 29er?

  43. #43
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    No, nothing so mainstream. And only long fork compatible, not long travel rear. And only a proto. OnOne Codeine. Short travel rear, sub 130mm, but up to 160mm forks. (Sorry its brief, don't want to derail this thread!)
    Last edited by the_pilot; 02-14-2013 at 07:06 AM. Reason: extra info
    Aka chainline...

  44. #44
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    Hard at work designing & refining the Ion29 in Lübbrechtsen..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ion15 29 Uncut - Idea, Design, Manufacture to trail  - words & pictures-image-1.jpg  

    Aka chainline...

  45. #45
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    Exciting stuff, pilot, your work on this project has been outstanding and appreciated...

    Will pull the trigger at some stage. Will be the perfect bike in my opinion. The AM 29er of mine is not really the ideal bike for am and trail, it is great, but not perfect. I am for sure used to the big fork and used to the weight, but to have a trail gobbling lighter 150mm strong fork would be awesome.

    Mmmmmm, the mind boggles

    Have been off the pace with MTB of late having done a half ironman, but am getting really hungry for it again.... Been on the Cevelo S5 heaps of late... Road ride today and a MTB in the morning for me.......
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  46. #46
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    Thanks Whafe. Kind words. I can't wait now. What with this bike, XX1/bling ring 1x setups with clutch mechs, and Maxxis announing a 29er 2.5 minion front and a 2.35 high roller 2 things are looking good.
    Aka chainline...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Thanks Whafe. Kind words. I can't wait now. What with this bike, XX1/bling ring 1x setups with clutch mechs, and Maxxis announing a 29er 2.5 minion front and a 2.35 high roller 2 things are looking good.
    ooh! a 2.5 minion! will we have enough room for one o them in the back?!

    roll on the welding pics. then we'll know its close!
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

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  48. #48
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    what weight will this beast come in at ?

    XX1 drivetrain but what fork is proposed ?

  49. #49
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    I'm probably not going to run XX1 initially until Chris King makes a compatible free-hub.
    In the meantime I am already running a Sram X0 crank with a 28t, sometimes 30t blingring from MRP with 11-36 XX rear cassette and XT clutch mech. So I get close to the gearing (and its fine for me even in Bonnie Scotland) at the bottom but not quite the top end. I'm not bothered about the top end there as by that time I'm not pedalling!
    When they bring a mech out for less than £240 rather than £50 XT clutch I'll think about it!
    As for forks. The minimum is 150mm 562mm a2c and the plan is for a Fox F34 float29 150mm.
    Rockshox are bringing out a 160mm 29er fork this year with 571mm a2c.
    I worry it might be heavier than I would like. The Fox is the same weight as the 140.

    Target weight, based on my current AC/AM running gear and assuming that the weight relationship is similar between the two 29s as it is between the Helius AM and Ion16 i.e a 3.3kg frame or less, is 29lbs with the extra weight of a CCDB air (300g heavier than RP23 CTD) but the linkage curve on the Ion is less forgiving for air shocks at the end of the stroke but there is plenty if adjustment of the CCDB to make sure it's kept under control (So Marcel tells me based on their setup of the Ion16)
    Aka chainline...

  50. #50
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    oh the waiting...
    We are discussing some decal options at the moment to keep the hunger at bay...
    Aka chainline...

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