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  1. #126
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    ace indeed
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    .
    So, why am I not seeing the Photo's???

  3. #128
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    Hey Simplemind. I don't know what's going on. I couldn't post any photo's yesterday and all of the photo's seem to have disappeared. They were uploaded from the computer not linked so I don't get it!

    I can upload the photo's they just don't show. They were all here!
    Aka chainline...

  4. #129
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    It appears all my photos have gone! really can't explain why.

    Tried to upload them again. They attach to the post but no joy in display.
    Aka chainline...

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    It appears all my photos have gone! really can't explain why.

    Tried to upload them again. They attach to the post but no joy in display.
    That sucks man. Would have loved to see that beast
    Nicolai Helius AFR frame size L for sale.

  6. #131
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    I was wondering Pilot (and also disappointed not to see them).

  7. #132
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    I think I saw the bike at the Eurobike 2013 Nicolai booth, is that possible?











    Last edited by zonoskar; 08-29-2013 at 01:54 PM.

  8. #133
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    Hi Zonoskar,

    It's not my bike, but it was announced it will be a production bike at Eurobike. It's very close to the bike I developed with Dipper/Nicolai. The production bike is a little steeper than mine with slightly shorter chain stays and steeper seat tube. Both of which we discounted for all sorts of reasons documented in this thread...

    I'll try and upload these photos again!
    Aka chainline...

  9. #134
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    Still wish they would do a Icon20 with a 29er. Looks they they set doing the tweener size now.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Hi Zonoskar,

    It's not my bike, but it was announced it will be a production bike at Eurobike. It's very close to the bike I developed with Dipper/Nicolai. The production bike is a little steeper than mine with slightly shorter chain stays and steeper seat tube. Both of which we discounted for all sorts of reasons documented in this thread...

    I'll try and upload these photos again!
    What are the numerical differences then? The production bike has:

    Head angle: 67.5 (high)/67 (low)
    Seat angle: 75 (high)/74.5 (low)
    Chainstay: 440mm

    And what's with the fork offset being a non-G2 46mm? Noticed this in the prototype drawings that are no longer visible here. With a 51mm offset fork, the head angle would want to be ~0.7 slacker to get the same trail (98mm).

  11. #136
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    Ah, final changes I didn't get to sort out..
    My angles are below so the Production bike is 0.5deg steeper head angle , just under 10mm shorter chainstay, 0.5deg steeper Seat tube, 5mm shorter TT.

    Mine
    Head Angle 67 High/66.5 Low
    Seat Angle 74.5 High/74 Low
    Chainstay 450mm

    In reality I believe the CS is slightly longer than 440mm on the production bike. Marcel had 440mm stays and felt with a slack head angle was almost too easy to manual/flip up.

    Finally I decided to use a 46mm Offset fork with the Pike, this works really really well. This decision was made after alot of calcs which concluded the Ion16 and Ion29 had trail within 1mm of each other and in fact were very very close on wheelbase too due to the 1deg slacker angle of the Ion16.

    The decision to change the production bikes was based on the main market being Germany and the Germans preferring a steeper/shorter bike due to their trails being wooded and very tight in general with little flow.

    Us English and the French particularly apparently like it slack and long! I have no evidence for American tastes!

    I would not want a seat tube any steeper. I prefer my Ion in Low, its fantastic all round and I can really tell even the 0.5 deg steeper Seat Tube compared to 74 in pedalling and climbing, too much of a tri position on the bike. So I am very glad I discounted the steeper tube, similarly with the chainstay, mine manuals great and turns great too particularly in Low but climbs really well. Dipper has been setting PB's on the climbs on his. AS discussed previously I believe it is possible to make the Chain stays too short relative to the overall length (so the riders relative position on the bike) at which point you compromise other aspects of riding like the climbing, for me 450mm is spot on with a low BB (both BBs are low on the Ion but obviously 333mm is LOW. with 170mm cranks I have had no pedal strike problems though.

    Its why when I see the likes of the BMC/Specialized Seat angles and Chainstay I know I would not like those bikes as an allrounder. For standing up descending fun, no doubt, although I suspect its incremental as they are also steeper, but there is more to riding than that and a lot of it involves pedaling with Enduro style riding as they are finding out in the World Series :-)
    Aka chainline...

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post

    Its why when I see the likes of the BMC/Specialized Seat angles and Chainstay I know I would not like those bikes as an allrounder. For standing up descending fun, no doubt, although I suspect its incremental as they are also steeper, but there is more to riding than that and a lot of it involves pedaling with Enduro style riding as they are finding out in the World Series :-)
    Not sure this makes sense. What other bikes should we make longer? The seat angle of the spec is 75 degrees, like your bike, but it's also not so rear-happy that it manuals just because you sat on the bike, those assertions seem a little ridiculous. The 29er wheels and forces normally encountered help to negate that (weight located further from the center of mass). The idea of the enduro was to insert 29" wheels into an all-mountain bike whilst changing as little as possible with the geometry, despite the massive design considerations (as an example, the seat-tube curves sideways a bit). It was not to take a 29er trail-bike and give it more travel. Sure, you can ride it all day, I've done numerous times by now, but it's also not a 4" travel 29er either (not sure why those need 18" stays either though). I've done everything from full-on resort DHing whilst flying over doubles to level rolling trails, and everything in between. No problems there, the bike does what it intended. I'm pretty sure they did their homework here and it wasn't just cobbled together. Although I wouldn't argue about 435mm stays, 440 gets to be needlessly long. I can't think of why I'd want the rear end longer. 29ers are inherently more stable, so you don't need the stability like the old 1st and 2nd generation DH bikes that came with 457-470mm chainstays, which was probably just accepted due to full suspension geometry problems.

    The Specialized is shorter, higher
    Ok, 5mm higher BB height. Steeper than 67 it may not be for 2014, given the pike IS higher than the old 150 fox, despite a lower axle-to-crown for a given amount of travel.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  13. #138
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    Jayem,

    my bike has a 74deg seat angle NOT a 75. i rejected proposal to go to 75 to get even more travel as there is a big difference in feel even between 74 and 74.5 deg.
    My bike is also 66.3 deg head angle with the Pike.

    I didn't say they were rubbish. The designer himself of the Specialised
    said they wanted to build a 26" bike with 29" wheels for the rollover. They wanted the 'fun' of a 26" bike, easier to manual and pop. He said is not a great climber, but wasn't built for that, winch up and plummet down...I have no problem with that. I have had two custom 29ers with chain stays that short and almost the same relative seating position and you need to be over the front to climb steep stuff, no choice, (its physics) running a longer stem helps. I also don't like the tri seating position, pedalling is less comfortable...for me. For others that may be a compromise worth making, that was my point.

    I can tell a big difference between the 66.3/74 and the 66.8/74.5 settings on the bike, the latter feeling noticeably taller and direction changes from big lean angles are slower. In tighter tech, its a good compromise, but I much prefer the low setting on fast rougher trails....for me, I also prefer the pedalling on the low setting, as expected from my previous experiences. The high is good, I just prefer low.

    I have tried to be really careful and come at this from my perspective as this bike design was based on my experiences and preferences over 4 years of having custom 29ers and racing in events like Trans Provence and the SuperEnduro series in Italy so I had a clear idea of what I wanted to achieve for my riding.

    The bike needed to take 2.4 Ardent/2.5 minion on a 30mm wide rim and have room to spar to shed British mud without a problem? As discussed in this thread it was another key consideration for this bike when deciding on rear CS length. We Could have made the CSs shorter easily but that brout its own compromises, its all a balance and not not just a function of travel. An example is I ride all year in the UK in some pretty disgusting conditions, the kind that build up inches of mud over the rear swing arm...many companies do not consider the conditions we contend with here in the UK, its been a longtime complaint of riders here.
    Aka chainline...

  14. #139
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    Well, if your're riding with 150-160mm you have to be over the front no matter what, it's physics. The Nicolai (the bike you promote) has about the same seat angle, your one-off is slightly different. It's not a "winch up" bike, as you claim, although I guess we could make the claim the ion is as nimble as a Mack truck, with those chainstays and 66 HA. Course that would be a little ridiculous, like the winch claim.

    Sounds like England is like Alaska...lots of mud and rain. Yep, there's gobs of clearance back there on the enduro
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  15. #140
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    Jayem, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree! To say any one individual geometry component defines a bike would be simplifying too much. But one thing is for sure, I had a different goal in designing the Ion than Spesh did (If the video presented bu Specialized is to be believed anyway) with the Enduro. The fact we came up with a different answer should not be a surprise. do I feel like my bike handles like a Mack truck no.have I had a Carbon S Works Enduro, yes. Did Nico vouillioz feel that way when rocking a 63 HA on his trail bike in an Enduro race probably not with his riding style, no.
    This isn't a my bike is better than your bike thread. it's the documentation of a journey I, and a few others went on, to get a bike built that works for us, just how we wanted it based on our experience. You clearly have a different view to which you are entitled.
    Aka chainline...

  16. #141
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    i'd like to try shorter chain stays to see what like but ive no complaints about the agility of the ion15 with 450mm c/stays. its better than many 26ers ive ridden. most of that is down to the low bb.

    the seat tube angle is a potential issue for me. like phil im riding mine in low all the time. id like to run it in high for more xc based stuff as it gives a more sat on rather than sat in riding position. however the seat angle is a bit too steep. it takes too much load off the hamstrings and puts my knees too far over the pedals for my liking. would be ok with a layback post but thats not an option with the reverb. even in low im running my saddle pretty far back on the rails.

    i'm off out on a long run today and am going to try the high position again. ive a 72km enduro race in a couple of weeks and ideally id run it in high for that but i suspect it'll take too much out of the quads. we'll see
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

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  17. #142
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    well after 3.5 hours with in high position all i can say is, im fine and the world didnt end! feels slightly odd at first after running in low for so long but after a while i forgot about it. it possibly is a slightly better option for xc as the position feels more 'racy' but really i doubt it makes any difference to speed or endurance. the st angle in high is definitely right on my comfort limit as i have the saddle all the way back in the rails. the biggest change is in handling and agility with the 7mm rise in bb height.
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

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  18. #143
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    yay the pictures are back...

    An update..had some fantastic rides on it so far. So have quite a few others and most have been blow away by it.

    There will be a Custom bikes feature in WhatMountainBike in January, Issue 157. featuring the bike and the story. We haven't done the photo shoot yet, but we did do a non scientific, old fashioned test...We took a trip to BikeParkWales where the TechEditor who is a pretty handy rider joined us for a day..we did a few trails, me following him on the Ion, I was very happy as I was keeping up, not used to that, he is a much quicker rider than I...then we swopped bikes and took the Ion for the rest of the day. I managed to follow him for about 30yrds before he was out of sight...hmmm. At the bottom of the trail, his huge grin gave it away...the test conclusion was it's a bike and he really liked it..the ease with which he was able to wheelie it and throw it about was a real surprise and the corner entry and exit speed was pretty much like nothing else. :-)

    For me, its great, I like it in low the most, high is more XC and good for tighter tech, but not measurably so. The biggest advantage to high is raising the BB where technical climbing is required. You can really tell the difference in height of the bike even though its only 7-8mm. You can tell the steering angle change too, is does speed the steering up but stability, at the speeds I travel is not noticeably different. The feel changes from a more body oriented turn in and pick up to one driven from the bars.

    So..Its now a production bike as you have all sen with subtle difference to mine and Dippers, mainly due to target market..

    and now the 2.5 minion AND high roller 2 are available...whaaaaaaa
    Aka chainline...

  19. #144
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    Not sure if I mentioned this before... if the DE production bike has 10mm shorter stays at the expense of not being able to fit quite as fat rubber... I noticed the rear OLD is still 135mm (as in 142mm X12) coupled with a 73mm BB. Could one get the best of both worlds using a 83mm BB and 150mm OLD (as in 157mm X12)? Plus the DH single-ring cranks will be available in lengths less than 170mm so the low BB would be less of an issue. Q-factor wouldn't be as good though...

  20. #145
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    I think that would get you even fatter rubber Stanly! but it's the length/mud clearance/ST clearance that's the issue.

    I don't think the DE version has quite 440mm stays, marvel suggested they were a touch longer, but they have revised some welded parts to allow a bit more room. Much comes from the fact they went to 75deg SA. That was too mic for me, too steep for an all day bike. 74 is optimum in my eyes, 74.5 I can live with. This has shown itself to be the case in use, for me anyway and I think Dipper agrees.
    I honestly think where we have the chainstays on this version is the right compromise for overall ability, up and down.
    Aka chainline...

  21. #146
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    Stanleyj I Was exchanging emails with Marcel at Nicolai recently and discussing rear chain stays. i was proposing a way to shorten the stays but keep tyre/mud clearance. it turns out thats just what they have done. The production swingarm main pivot arms have been revised to bring the stays further 'under' so to speak. This has allowed a 7mm reduction in length whilst retaining tyre clearance. The new stays come in at a hair over 440mm now.

    I won't be retrofitting as I'm happy as is, with it being a bit slacker and longer relative to frame size. The balance is about right for me.

    Production bike looks damn good now. I'd have no hesitation in recommending it. It needs more publicity....

    There will be a feature on custom bikes in WhatMountainBike issue 157 in Jan with the Ion29 in there...hopefully a bit more good publicity for our German friends..
    Aka chainline...

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Stanleyj I Was exchanging emails with Marcel at Nicolai recently and discussing rear chain stays. i was proposing a way to shorten the stays but keep tyre/mud clearance. it turns out thats just what they have done. The production swingarm main pivot arms have been revised to bring the stays further 'under' so to speak. This has allowed a 7mm reduction in length whilst retaining tyre clearance. The new stays come in at a hair over 440mm now.

    I won't be retrofitting as I'm happy as is, with it being a bit slacker and longer relative to frame size. The balance is about right for me.

    Production bike looks damn good now. I'd have no hesitation in recommending it. It needs more publicity....

    There will be a feature on custom bikes in WhatMountainBike issue 157 in Jan with the Ion29 in there...hopefully a bit more good publicity for our German friends..
    Hehehe. Having a serious bouncy-both-ends long-travel 29er itch that needs scratching and keep coming back to the ION15... dagnammit!

    Though I think I'll have to be greedy, have my cake and eat it with a tight German back-end (CS length) with a slack English front (head angle)... *boom boom*

    Also can't quite figure out why the geo- adjust chip on the ION15 changes by 0.5deg, where as on the ION16 (26er and 650b) change by 1deg? Eye-balling it from photos... the eccentricnesseses(!) looks the same...

  23. #148
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    Hey Stanleyj, I agree if I was ordering now, I would Kick the head angle back out to 66.5 OR why not just NOT go custom, save the cash and fit a 160mm Pike which brings the angles back to 66.5/67 anyway (like mine and its just right) BUT also crucially for me brings the seat angle to 74/74.5 the same as mine. My reservation with production is I prefer the slightly slacker seat angle for pedalling reasons. It only lifts the BB by 2.7mm so basically all good for ripping in Low.
    Aka chainline...

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Hey Stanleyj, I agree if I was ordering now, I would Kick the head angle back out to 66.5 OR why not just NOT go custom, save the cash and fit a 160mm Pike which brings the angles back to 66.5/67 anyway (like mine and its just right) BUT also crucially for me brings the seat angle to 74/74.5 the same as mine. My reservation with production is I prefer the slightly slacker seat angle for pedalling reasons. It only lifts the BB by 2.7mm so basically all good for ripping in Low.
    A cursory Googling does indeed show that a Pike 160mm 29er is available... serves me right for always looking on the SRAM website where it still lists the 29er Pike as 140mm & 150mm only. A 160mm travel 29er just sounds dangerous...ly good.

  25. #150
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    I couldn't get one when designing, building and they are still hard to get hold of, Jan I think we are told now in UK.

    You can change the air shaft on the 150mm to 160mm and back again. Vie asked dipper to get me a 160mm air shaft but mine is more set up for the 150mm. Basically the production bike is crying out for the 160mm!
    Aka chainline...

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