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  1. #1
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    Is the Helius CC 650b compatible?

    Does anyone have experience of fitting 650b wheels to the CC?

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    To be fair, unless you were running low volume tyres I don't think they're going to fit in the rear as on full travel the tyre is only about 10mm off the seat post/mech clamp with a 2.25" tyre on a 26" wheel

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    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_b77 View Post
    To be fair, unless you were running low volume tyres I don't think they're going to fit in the rear as on full travel the tyre is only about 10mm off the seat post/mech clamp with a 2.25" tyre on a 26" wheel
    Does it mean that a high volume tire, like Rubber Queen 2.4, or Big Betty will hit the seatpost?

    As far as 650b - you can shim the shock to limit stroke to 2.25". Will reduce travel (from 160 to 150 etc).

    With BB drop as high as it is, 650b will probably be too tall on Nicolai. 14.5"+ - with 150mm 650b fork?

    I wish they had a 650b specific frame.

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    I have now managed to take some measurements on my CC using some laser cut gauges and I think 650b with 2.3 Pacenti Neo Moto's will fit. No problem with seatpost as far as I can tell. I am going to order some Stans Flow's in 650b and try.

    Axe, I have had 2.4 Rubber Queens on this bike in the past, no problem.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    I have now managed to take some measurements on my CC using some laser cut gauges and I think 650b with 2.3 Pacenti Neo Moto's will fit. No problem with seatpost as far as I can tell. I am going to order some Stans Flow's in 650b and try.

    Axe, I have had 2.4 Rubber Queens on this bike in the past, no problem.
    What would be interesting is to shim the shock to 2.25" travel (from 2.5 on recent frame) - and make an alternative front mounting chip - so move it forward quarter inch to drop the bottom bracket. Should be about 15mm drop from moving shock 6mm forward? You would get 121 to 153mm adjustable travel, 650b wheels, and under 14" bottom bracket - assuming 150mm 650b fork..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    What would be interesting is to shim the shock to 2.25" travel (from 2.5 on recent frame) - and make an alternative front mounting chip - so move it forward quarter inch to drop the bottom bracket. Should be about 15mm drop from moving shock 6mm forward? You would get 121 to 153mm adjustable travel, 650b wheels, and under 14" bottom bracket - assuming 150mm 650b fork..
    Aleady have 2.25" (57mm) stroke shock fitted. I'll try it as it is first and maybe run some more sag to get the BB height down a bit, but your idea is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    Aleady have 2.25" (57mm) stroke shock fitted. I'll try it as it is first and maybe run some more sag to get the BB height down a bit, but your idea is interesting.
    But that would be a 200mm shock right? With the same chip it would compress rear by 30 to 40mm compared with 216mm shock (according to their Linkage Characteristics plot for 2011 frame). You need to drop it by about 20mm to compensate for wheel radius increase - ~8mm at the shock. So one could use a front mount that moves the mount back about 8mm together with a standard 200x53mm shock and should be just perfect for a 650b wheel (assuming it clear the chainstay - it should clear the seat tube). And front 140 to 150mm fork with a ZS headset (for 1-1/8 steerer) should preserve the geometry.

    I was talking about 2012 AM.
    Last edited by Axe; 03-21-2012 at 01:37 AM.

  8. #8
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    .. for a frame with 7.875"x2.25" shock it could be just going to 7.50 x 2.00" size.

    9.5mm decrease in eye to eye distance will move suspension ~24mm for 2.6 ratio, and reduce travel about 15mm or so..

    Just musing.. did not try to properly run the numbers.

  9. #9
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    Don't reduce the shock length unless you want to drop the BB and at the same time make ALL (seat and head) angles slacker. Eventually too mmuch drop in there and the FD cage will hit the chainstays at full compression.

    If you want more clearance just put a bumper on the shock shaft and limit travel.

    650B are a good idea if the frame is designed for it. Otherwise you miss one of the great advantage of bigger wheels which is the BB well below the wheel axles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    650B are a good idea if the frame is designed for it. Otherwise you miss one of the great advantage of bigger wheels which is the BB well below the wheel axles.
    That's why reducing the shock length - initial eyelet position by about 6mm. Drop BB roughly in line with the axle (from +17mm). This will preserve all geometry (but will mess up anti-squat, but not by much). FD cage is not a concern - chainstay moves in exactly the same range - and one can use a shorter SLX double specific derailleur if it interferes with tires.

    I tried to draw the resulting geometry and compare with Ventana Zeus - it will be surprisingly close. If the chainstay fits (And Zeus has 432mm chainstay, compared with 430 for Nicolai) and seatstay does not rub on full compression, all the numbers will be like it was designed for 140-150mm 650b use. Zeus will use 7.825x2.25 shock and will have 140 to 160mm adjustable travel. Exactly what AM converted to 650b will have with the same shock.

    Yes, I would MUCH rather have an official setup for 650b from Nicolai. I am mulling over what to order (Zeus near the top of the list, and Helius AM first choice), with 650b would not even hesitate a second. I do believe it is the future for AM bikes. Looks like all they need to do is increase chain-stay length by a few mm, and relocate shock mount and use 200x57 shock, and design for 535mm fork (upcoming Fox, Magura). But I guess fine tuning that will take time.
    Last edited by Axe; 03-22-2012 at 06:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    That's why reducing the shock length - initial eyelet position by about 6mm. Drop BB roughly in line with the axle (from +17mm). This will preserve all geometry (but will mess up anti-squat, but not by much). FD cage is not a concern - chainstay moves in exactly the same range - and one can use a shorter SLX double specific derailleur if it interferes with tires.

    I tried to draw the resulting geometry and compare with Ventana Zeus - it will be surprisingly close. If the chainstay fits (And Zeus has 432mm chainstay, compared with 430 for Nicolai) and seatstay does not rub on full compression, all the numbers will be like it was designed for 140-150mm 650b use. Zeus will use 7.825x2.25 shock and will have 140 to 160mm adjustable travel. Exactly what AM converted to 650b will have with the same shock.

    Yes, I would MUCH rather have an official setup for 650b from Nicolai. I am mulling over what to order (Zeus near the top of the list, and Helius AM first choice), with 650b would not even hesitate a second. I do believe it is the future for AM bikes. Looks like all they need to do is increase chain-stay length by a few mm, and relocate shock mount and use 200x57 shock, and design for 535mm fork (upcoming Fox, Magura). But I guess fine tuning that will take time.
    I'm lost... loamranger is talking about a CC. I think youre comparing to an AM?

    I think you can pull a Whafe and make the factory to make a dedicated 650B. It wouldn't take much as you mention.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    I'm lost... loamranger is talking about a CC. I think youre comparing to an AM?

    I think you can pull a Whafe and make the factory to make a dedicated 650B. It wouldn't take much as you mention.
    Yes, I was talking about AM.

    Yeah, I will try to contact them - all I need is a different front shock mount - move it 6mm. Relocating the rear axle back 3 or 4mm probably is not needed if 2.3" 650b tire fits (as far as I understood it does).

    But I want to make some exact drawings first. If it is feasible, I will order it in 26" form and then order (or pay a local machinist) the shock mount for conversion.

    Basically I want to be able to run 26" with longer travel and a coil shock for downhill trails, and put on lightweight 650b wheelset, fork and small air shock for long rides. I usually have a spare wheelset for bikes anyway. Takes under 20 min to swap shock, mounts and fork anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    I'm lost... loamranger is talking about a CC. I think youre comparing to an AM?

    I think you can pull a Whafe and make the factory to make a dedicated 650B. It wouldn't take much as you mention.
    This where I'm at with 650b:

    I have had a look at a number of bikes for converting to 650b. Unfortunately my favaorite choice the Knolly Chilcotin won't convert (seat stays too short) so that leaves the Mojo HD 140 (650b approved) as probably the best alternative frame. The HD's headangle of around 68 deg means that with the increased trail of the larger wheels I would end up with around 66.5 deg equivalent headangle compared to 26" wheels....ideal for me. The bb is increased but according to others , it is increased by an acceptable amount . However, the clearances on the chainstay are pretty tight with a 2.3" tyre, probably ok for the Californian boys but not ideal for all year round UK use.

    Liteville 301 or 601 is a possibility, they both clear 2.3" or maybe even 2.4" fitted to 650b wheels in the large or XL frame sizes (cs varies with frame size). The problem is that the headangles start off at being very slack (64.5 to 66.5 deg) so the steering with the increased trail of the 650b wheels may be too slow?

    So I may be coming round to the idea of getting a custom Nicolai based on the Helius AM or Ion 16, as Warp suggests. In the mean time I'm going to through some wheels on the CC and see what happens.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    In the mean time I'm going to through some wheels on the CC and see what happens.
    If the CC uses the same rear triangle as the AC, then it clears 650B tyres but barely.

    List of 27.5 Compatible 26ers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    If the CC uses the same rear triangle as the AC, then it clears 650B tyres but barely.

    List of 27.5 Compatible 26ers
    Chainstays on the AC are definitely different - AC has clearance for larger tyres but its probably more width ways than lengthways so doesn't necessarily make a difference.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolai-uk View Post
    Chainstays on the AC are definitely different - AC has clearance for larger tyres but its probably more width ways than lengthways so doesn't necessarily make a difference.
    And how they compare to AM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    And how they compare to AM?
    Front of the chainstay *looks* the same on the AC and AM we have built at the moment but current spec frames may be slightly revised. AC CS length 425mm, AM 429mm.

    What's the actual increase in wheel diameter to the outer edge of a typical rim on 650b? On the AM I reckon theres 20mm+ of clearance at the chainstay and running in a lower travel setting could add clearance at the seattube.
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    Simon, Pacenti 2.1 mounted on 650b rim measures 702, 2.3 704 and 2.4 712. CC clears up to 2.3.

    Any news on a 650b specific Nicolai?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolai-uk View Post
    What's the actual increase in wheel diameter to the outer edge of a typical rim on 650b? On the AM I reckon theres 20mm+ of clearance at the chainstay and running in a lower travel setting could add clearance at the seattube.
    That's what I thought. It seems to me that getting a front mount about 4mm forward (to drop axle by ~10mm to compensate for wheel radius increase) and running rear at ~150mm, with 150mm fork (535mm a2c in the upcoming Fox ?) should give an excellent 650b trail bike geometry - very close to the upcoming Ventana Zeus. I know it affects suspension tuning, all the anti-squat, blah, blah, but that should not be too bad.

    My idea was to have two wheelsets and two forks, eventually. I have a very sturdy (and heavy) 26" build kit with meaty tires. One for a day when I take a shuttle up, and one for a long trail ride.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    That's what I thought. It seems to me that getting a front mount about 4mm forward (to drop axle by ~10mm to compensate for wheel radius increase) and running rear at ~150mm, with 150mm fork (535mm a2c in the upcoming Fox ?) should give an excellent 650b trail bike geometry - very close to the upcoming Ventana Zeus. I know it affects suspension tuning, all the anti-squat, blah, blah, but that should not be too bad.

    My idea was to have two wheelsets and two forks, eventually. I have a very sturdy (and heavy) 26" build kit with meaty tires. One for a day when I take a shuttle up, and one for a long trail ride.
    You could do a special bracket mounted on the rocker links that anchors itself in two of the mounting holes, for a shorter shock.

    Yes, you would need a shorter shock and the wheelset, but you would not have to buy a custom frame (nothing wrong with that either) and it would be convertible between 26" and 650B.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Yes, you would need a shorter shock and the wheelset, but you would not have to buy a custom frame (nothing wrong with that either) and it would be convertible between 26" and 650B.
    Yeah, either 200x57 shock and +10mm mount (on either side), or stock 215x63 and -4mm (but not using top hole on the rocker, or shimming the shock). Swapping things around can be done in just a few minutes. Will be interesting to try.

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    Axe, did you go for the AM?

    I'm getting my 650b wheelset soon and will post up some photos.

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