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  1. #1
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    Helius Am Pinion

    HI guys,
    in the german forum the Helius AM with a pinion gearbox just appeared:

    Nicolai Helius AM Pinion - Fahrbericht vom ersten Mountainbike mit Pinion Getriebe - MTB-News.de | IBC Mountainbike Forum

    sorry, no english yet.

  2. #2
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    Oh good lord that looks amazing. If it works as well as it looks that's a big step forward for gear box bikes.

  3. #3
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    I want one, I want one, I want one, I want one, I want one, I want one, I want one, I want one, I want one................................

    Just how many gears has this thing got? and what sort of range?

    Now where did I put Dipper's number .

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    18 gears, 600% range. Adjustable via the chainring size. The range is quite wide, I guess because the gearbox is to be bolted to any kind of bike.

  5. #5
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    I wonder if they can do that with a 29er

  6. #6
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    Well I've just asked Dipper to order me one.......

    Mind you he's bleatin' on about needin' permission fae my 'boss' as well as other excuses.

  7. #7
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    Well far be it for me to be the source of turmoil in an otherwise happy home! Oh sorry I forgot, you're meant to be saving for the 'happy home'!!
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  8. #8
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    OMG, I like it!


    Weight of the frame+pinion+cranks+chainring?

  9. #9
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    Good job!

    Total weight for the bike in the link above is stated 15.3kg. Jummy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Helius Am Pinion-nicolai-helius-am_pinion_2012.jpg  


  10. #10
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    amazing.....

  11. #11
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    Adriano.... :-).

    15.3 is the total weight but... some parts could be more light. I hope that nicolai tell more about the specs in Eurobike :-)

  12. #12
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    Its the future - we need something like this to take off and kick shim and srams ass a bit - they could easily be bringing this stuff to market but dont want to.

    How many gears does it have?

    All that bike needs is a ccdb air on the back!
    www.essexhertsmtb.co.uk - Mountain Biking near London in the UK

  13. #13
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    Wow... amazing. Now please bring it in AC flavour... trail slayer!
    Check my Site

  14. #14
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    18 gears, 600% of range. Good news :-).

    I hope that extend it to AC and AFR models

  15. #15
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    it does indeed look like the future. not that its a big deal but its a shame it needs a chain tensioner. hopefully it will be cheaper than the gboxx!
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper View Post
    it does indeed look like the future. not that its a big deal but its a shame it needs a chain tensioner. hopefully it will be cheaper than the gboxx!
    I'd imagine that it needs the tensioner to allow for chain line growth during compression but at least it's cheaper to replace than a rear mech. The problem I can see though is the lack of chain guide at the front and possibly the lack of bash gaurd mounting points.

  17. #17
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    Looks great doesn't it? We're really stoked about this one and apparently we can take orders now with a deposit to secure your place in the first production runs (though no promise of a delivery date).

    Looking at the way the hub is put together there are lots of opportunities for an optional/custom drive side gearbox cover to integrate or mount bash or chainguide. Something like a Roox rollercoaster might be enough so you keep the back end really simple - maybe combined with a rear cog with side plates (seen on some Alfine/Nexus cogs i think).
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  18. #18
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    Can it be done to a long travel 29er? Like my 150mm AM/AFR 29er?

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    a light ceradure or light ti cog with the Paul Components melvin will be a good option too

  20. #20
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    WooHoo......emailed Karl this morning about ordering an AM Pinion and recieved an email back from Vincent telling me to contact my local dealer (Dipper) to place an order NOW.

    And that's just what I've done!

    Now the waiting begins..........

  21. #21
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    Fook me SDR you didn't take much convincing!

    What are you going to do with you current AM?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by geetee1972 View Post
    Fook me SDR you didn't take much convincing!

    What are you going to do with you current AM?
    It's the way forward.......trust me.

    I'll just swap the parts over from the old to the new and sell the current AM frame.

  23. #23
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    What's the cost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianpinder View Post
    What's the cost?
    I don't think there's a price for the Pinion P1 yet but according to the jungle drums it should be cheaper than the current gearbox offerings.

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    Looks like I'm gonna have to sell my current am to fund the Africa thing, so come next year I'll be after a new bike. This will be it. Custom, ano, extra live, probably pushing 4k...

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    I don't think there's a price for the Pinion P1 yet but according to the jungle drums it should be cheaper than the current gearbox offerings.
    I hope it but the important is... what price he say you? :-)

  27. #27
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    SDR looks like you've just postponed my scotland road trip! haha

    Think there will be a large blue FR frame up for sale soon along with i'm guessing a lot of other peoples!!

    Be awesome if they could work out a way to combine it with the gates carbon drive!

  28. #28
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    Also does it come with a proper shifter instead of **** grip shift type

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by shakeyakey View Post
    SDR looks like you've just postponed my scotland road trip! haha

    Think there will be a large blue FR frame up for sale soon along with i'm guessing a lot of other peoples!!

    Be awesome if they could work out a way to combine it with the gates carbon drive!
    Fort Bill this Saturday......it's not too late! You know you want to.

    I've already seen a picture with a Pinion P1 fitted with Gates Carbon Drive. I'll go have another look and see if I can find it again.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdr08 View Post
    Fort Bill this Saturday......it's not too late! You know you want to.

    I've already seen a picture with a Pinion P1 fitted with Gates Carbon Drive. I'll go have another look and see if I can find it again.
    Actually it's pictured on the link at the top of the page. Don't think you'll get one fitted to a full suspension bike though.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by shakeyakey View Post
    Also does it come with a proper shifter instead of **** grip shift type
    Apparently not.

    In the German it says Pinion uses a twist grip instead of a proper one for the same reasons as apply to Rohloffs. Someone with better German and better mechanical knowledge can probably tell us more, but it's something to do with the range of gears. They in fact mention a possible/theoretical electrically-triggered gear change as a solution.

    For me, lack of a proper shifter is a minus point, but it all looks pretty interesting.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdr08 View Post
    Actually it's pictured on the link at the top of the page. Don't think you'll get one fitted to a full suspension bike though.
    It'd have to be a Nucleon series so the chain do not experience tension variations.

    But that would mean dumping more money to make the Nucleon to fit the Pinion. They're almost there, though.
    Check my Site

  33. #33
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    AluTech's take on the Pinion, via google translate:

    Google Translate

    Very neat.

  34. #34
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    oooowww that google translate works on the am page too!! Google Translate

    WIN

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    Some experiments in XLS with parts I know because are mounted in my actual bike and the little info about this new model

    I assume 400 gr for cranks and the new frame weight without pinion aprox the same as regular AM. The plate weight aprox the same that the BB and a little part of down and seat tube



  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by markchang View Post
    Some experiments in XLS with parts I know because are mounted in my actual bike and the little info about this new model

    I assume 400 gr for cranks and the new frame weight without pinion aprox the same as regular AM. The plate weight aprox the same that the BB and a little part of down and seat tube
    I don't want to see the results when babelfish tries to translate "tija pija"...
    Check my Site

  37. #37
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    OK, it's a coloquial name. It means telescopic seatpost, like gravitty dropper, crank brothers... :-)

    But in Méjico pija Means... ;-)

  38. #38
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    That is a stunning looking bike,Loving the Gearbox.
    If they do an AC,i will order one.
    Not liking the twisty shift idea.

  39. #39
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    i used to love my old XO twist shifters. often thought about going back to them. stopped using them as they didnt work with the brakes i was using at the time but the long levered hopes will be fine now. getting decent grips can be an issue as well
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper View Post
    i used to love my old XO twist shifters. often thought about going back to them. stopped using them as they didnt work with the brakes i was using at the time but the long levered hopes will be fine now. getting decent grips can be an issue as well
    I did use them a few years,but found it difficult to change gear when riding the rough stuff

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam View Post
    I did use them a few years,but found it difficult to change gear when riding the rough stuff
    i had the original clear gripshifts back in the day and the sachs ones and they were shocking once it got wet or muddy. The joys of having to put tiewraps around your shifters and wear gloves just to change gear!!

    Gimmie a proper Sram trigger shifter any day

  42. #42
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    I use the X0 twist shifters and for a all round bike Is a very good option. I suposse that the twist shift election is because they need a tire or throw very long to change gear and spinning the best achieved. In addition if it is a 6x3 takes 2 reducers and with a twist shifter is much easier, cheaper and lighter to do (I think)

  43. #43
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    Am in Love.....
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  44. #44
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    Pinion 18 speed Gearbox - Eurobike 2011 - Pinkbike.com

    less weight than I hope for the pinion system :-)

  45. #45
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    AND surprisingly well priced! This is getting more tempting by the minute....

  46. #46
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    yes, it's a good price!

    I hope tomorrow pinion reveal the cranks weight and nicolai reveals the frame weight :-)

    In my XLS examples the system is arround 1 kg heavier :-(.

  47. #47
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    In my opinion, 1 kg is NOTHING.

  48. #48
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    1 Kg extra in weight is minimal, the benefits of the weight in the middle of the bike and low is worth 1 Kg
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    SDR08 let me know when you come to sell that AM. 1.5" HT?
    Aka chainline...

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    SDR08 let me know when you come to sell that AM. 1.5" HT?
    Yeah it's 1.5"HT, 12mm Rear Axle, HS mount plus additional front shock mounts to allow fitment of a 200x57 shock. If I decide to sell it'll probably be in the next few weeks once I decide on whether to keep either the AM or FR in the stable.

  51. #51
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    Dm me your thoughts on price SDR08. Might be a bit soon but I'd change mine for yours for the flexibility of the HT. My shocks are 200x57 so that's good. I might see if any of my friends are interested in mine.
    You keeping the HS?
    Aka chainline...

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Dm me your thoughts on price SDR08. Might be a bit soon but I'd change mine for yours for the flexibility of the HT. My shocks are 200x57 so that's good. I might see if any of my friends are interested in mine.
    You keeping the HS?
    Will do but don't get too excited as your actually the third enquiry to date. But yes I'll keep you up to date.

    Not sure what to do with the HS now! I'ts actually bolted onto my AC at present as I thought I'd run it for a while before bolting it onto the AM but if I get shot of the AM and doesn't fit my FR it's probably not worth keeping.

  53. #53
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    Ok! wait and see! probably best I save my can for the RC29er. There's nowt wrong with my AM and I have the new angles on the front anyway!
    Aka chainline...

  54. #54
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    well, the weight is Nothing.. or not, depends the user. Some pepol needs a pinion based bike but a little more light :-)

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    I've not put enough posts to be able to directly link to this but theres some stuff about the AM and a few close ups of the pinion - it's in French mind!

    zapiks.com/_nicolai-2011-1/]nicolai 2011 : 1 videos

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    Does anyone know about POE (points of engagement) on the Pinion? If it's more than like 16 I'm very interested in getting one.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromthesurf View Post
    I've not put enough posts to be able to directly link to this but theres some stuff about the AM and a few close ups of the pinion - it's in French mind!

    zapiks.com/_nicolai-2011-1/]nicolai 2011 : 1 videos
    Pretty sure that's from last year's Eurobike though? Described as 2010 and those are last years bikes and stand...
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  58. #58
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    You're probably right but I thought twas interesting nonetheless. Sadly it appears the video has been removed.

  59. #59
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    www.essexhertsmtb.co.uk - Mountain Biking near London in the UK

  60. #60
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    Intriguing developments with this Pinion box. Great to see it nicely compact and respectible in the weight department. The idea of a Pinion box with less gears and less weight/complexity sounds even better!

    In regards to the shifting, i've not used a gripshift for probably a decade now. Wasn't much of a fan of it back in the day but things may have changed. For alternatives to gripshift electrical shifters would work but its still somewhat experimental outside the road cycling world and expensive to develop. IMO though, there is another option...

    Hydraulic shifting (like Acros' system)! Lighter than conventional wire-shifting systems, and the use of hydraulics negates the need for return springs. Also, you would get a decent improve in the reliability of the system & need for adjustment.

    Thoughts?? Anyone else think that Nicolai/Pinion should give Acros a call? All three are German, keeping it in 'da family'...

    *

  61. #61
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    Yes, hydraulic shifting of a Pinion gearbox on a Nicolai sounds fantastic.

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    But also sounds expensive :-(.

  63. #63
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    OMG. this bike's amazing

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    So; who's ordered one?

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by starship303 View Post
    Thoughts?? Anyone else think that Nicolai/Pinion should give Acros a call? All three are German, keeping it in 'da family'...
    I would pretty much bet anything that this 3 way has been in discussion...

    Can't keep looking at the Pinion AM, too hawt...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by aflatvad View Post
    So; who's ordered one?
    Sdr08 on here has ordered one. I'm tempted but going to let him be the guinea pig
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  67. #67
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    Are you worried about firstgenerationitis?

  68. #68
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    Somebody has to be at the sharp end! it obviously doesn't worry sdr08. It doesnt worry me either. However, I'd like to know how the gearbox feels before taking the plunge.
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    I herar that AC pinion are in the future. a 150mm pinion with aprox 500gr less than the AM pinion would be a very good option (If tha AC and Am models has 500 gr of difference, in pinion models would be the same aprox.).

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    Hi everybody,

    I have the privilege to ride it in south of france after the Rocd'Azur, about 1hour and alf of ride.

    The gear box is better than Gboxx1 and Gboxx2, no friction on any ratio, shiftting is quick, precise and you can change in pedaling under pressure (near a derailler), twister work very well and you forget that you have a gear box after 5 minutes of riding, it's the best evolution i ride, very good.

    The suspension work very well, in pedaling very very little pumping with shock open, if you use the pro pedal there is no pumping. In downhill the suspension work very well sensitive réactive and progressive, the best bike i ever ride, sure it's a great bike and... i order one

    I make two little video


  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by markchang View Post
    I herar that AC pinion are in the future. a 150mm pinion with aprox 500gr less than the AM pinion would be a very good option (If tha AC and Am models has 500 gr of difference, in pinion models would be the same aprox.).
    Nicolai say you can order almost any model with Pinion. Might take a while but since the suspenion design doesn't change they'll just be working with an alternative bottom bracket/box assembly.
    Simon Still
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  72. #72
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    Cyril_88, on that trail I wouldnt care what I was riding, just being there on a bike would be enough :-)
    Aka chainline...

  73. #73
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    Here is my ride with the AM Pinion...

    And now... I want one!!!
    It's THE perfect bike for Enduro trails!
    It climbs better than an AM with 170mm of travel,
    and it is faster and safer for downhill...



    Thx again to Cyril_88 for this test!

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    Ah, and here are some pics of it:




















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    With the Gboxx 1 you have to stop pedaling to change gear when you begin to ride, after a little time you can change in pedaling but without pressure and you have to improve your ride with the Gboxx 1 to use it correctly, and the weight is important.

    With the Gboxx2 the twister need too much amplitude to change gear and you need to stop pedaling to go on shorter gear.

    On Gb1 and 2 you have to take time to use correctly the gear box and some manipuliation are forbiden, it's not the case on the pinion gear box and it's lighter

  76. #76
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    Nicolai say you can order almost any model with Pinion. Might take a while but since the suspenion design doesn't change they'll just be working with an alternative bottom bracket/box assembly.
    Really? If I want a 150 mm based on ION system, with lighter front triangle, with pinion and 72 73º seattube they do?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by markchang View Post
    Really? If I want a 150 mm based on ION system, with lighter front triangle, with pinion and 72 73º seattube they do?
    Potentially you will be able to order current models, with standard geometry, with a Pinion gearbox.
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  78. #78
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    Oooh! That's the ion 18(with added pinion) right back on the table!
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

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    And price? same as AM pinion? it's an extra price?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper View Post
    Oooh! That's the ion 18(with added pinion) right back on the table!
    yes that would be the shizzle!
    www.essexhertsmtb.co.uk - Mountain Biking near London in the UK

  81. #81
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    I am a firm believer this is the future. I really wish I could afford it.
    Last edited by mojojojoaf; 11-11-2011 at 11:20 AM.

  82. #82
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    who has ordered one?

    I am still alive,started riding again.

    looks stunning and by reading the review seems to work.and not to heavy,hope they make a carbon/lighter cranks version for the xc/trail riders.

  83. #83
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    Sdr08 has ordered one. I'm seriously tempted but might wait till I get a shot of marks one first
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

    flash bikes for flash gits

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper View Post
    Sdr08 has ordered one. I'm seriously tempted but might wait till I get a shot of marks one first
    buy one in large.black ano frame,red extras.will do a deal on a standard AC frame.

  85. #85
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    Hello everyone.....!
    Life is a question mark without a question.

  86. #86
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    Hullo. Have you ordered one by any chance?
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

    flash bikes for flash gits

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper View Post
    Hullo. Have you ordered one by any chance?
    I wont order one until i know my knee is ok.
    have been out twice in over 2 months.
    knee is feeling ok today,did a wet and muddy 10 miles yesterday.

  88. #88
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    I meant new boy chinky. Thought maybe he'd ordered one. Glad to hear the knees improving. That's been quite a while. I'm sitting here wi ice on mine at the moment after binning it yesterday!
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

    flash bikes for flash gits

  89. #89
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    Thinking if I should order one before I go to Africa, or wait until I get back from Africa.

  90. #90
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    I don't know what the order book is looking like but no point hanging back if you definitely want one.
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    www.nicolai-uk.com

  91. #91
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    Looks very intriguing. Does it really make that grinding sound when pedaling that you hear in the video? Even if I didn't feel friction, I think that would drive me nuts.
    Last edited by KRob; 11-14-2011 at 08:24 AM.
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
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  92. #92
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    I haven't ridden one yet so who knows. I'm assuming you're referring to a Rohloff hub?

    I ride them all the time, both on and off road, and you just don't notice that sound above background noise except perhaps on a steep road climb. I think one problem is that a lot of Rohloffs don't do enough km and aren't even properly run-in - they get smoother and quieter with age.
    Simon Still
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  93. #93
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    We have 4 orders but no delievery date> hmmm ..

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    The whole derailleur thing is so old. Why won't more bike companies step up? I can believe that Shimano, Campy and SRAM cannot do something better...like this. The Di2 electric shifting is OK, but it's only a new hat on an old chick. I'm especially frustrated that the modern group-sets are so expensive with NO innovations. There's very little change from the original that Gino Bartali introduced in 1948-cable pulled 3 speed, not much different to a cable pulled Record or XTR groupset today. Sure there's a little extra carbon, a few different pivots and some extra gears; but nothing too different... This design is it. Rohloff is doing good stuff. However, Nicolai improvement of having the gears/weight located in the central/low part of the frame is genius. The crazy Germans are doing it again. First the U-boat and now this. It's about time. - What next hydraulic shifting? .....('they have that too'; d'oh!)
    Last edited by nts550; 01-13-2012 at 05:05 AM.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by nts550 View Post
    The whole derailleur thing is so old. Why won't more bike companies step up? I can believe that Shimano, Campy and SRAM cannot do something better...like this. The Di2 electric shifting is OK, but it's only a new hat on an old chick. I'm especially frustrated that the modern group-sets are so expensive with NO innovations. There's very little change from the original that Gino Bartali introduced in 1948-cable pulled 3 speed, not much different to a cable pulled Record or XTR groupset today. Sure there's a little extra carbon, a few different pivots and some extra gears; but nothing too different... This design is it. Rohloff is doing good stuff. However, Nicolai improvement of having the gears/weight located in the central/low part of the frame is genius. The crazy Germans are doing it again. First the U-boat and now this. It's about time. - What next hydraulic shifting? .....('they have that too'; d'oh!)
    I think companies like Shimano live off of derailleur sales and upgrades, I too feel like derailleurs should be a thing of the past. This implementation of a gearbox has been pretty well thought out- too bad they are going to be hell to get in the US.

  96. #96
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    the only issue i see with gearbox based systems is increased weight, albeit centred around the "right" location for dead weight....

  97. #97
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    I have a question as I watched the above video of the Pinion:
    1) Correct me if I am wrong the Pinion freewheels independent of the rear hub correct?
    2) Would that negate brake jack then?

    Seems like it might but I cant get my head around the mechanics correctly. If it doesnt its not a big deal to me just wondering

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojoaf View Post
    I think companies like Shimano live off of derailleur sales and upgrades
    I used to think that, but I read somewhere a while back that most of Shimano's cycling-related income is from the bottom range groupsets specced as OEM on supermarket/chainstore/that-kind-of-thing bikes. They don't need to make much off them, when they're shifting them by the hundreds of thousands.
    This is no place for logic and facts; this is the internet.

  99. #99
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    ^^Makes sense.

    To the original point though- I love my DB Mission but when I look at the derailleurs now and look at the mess of cables I cant help but wish the Nicolai AM Pinion was more available. and that I had the money to pull the trigger. It just makes so much sense for the type of riding I do.

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