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  1. #1
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    Helius AM - Leverage Rate ?

    Help requested.
    Does anyone know how the leverage rate on the Helius AM has been designed ?
    I want to know if the linkage rate is rising initially with end ramp-up, or falling wheel rate after mid-travel (reducing rate) ?
    At 160mm rear travel, the AM’s leverage ratio is ~2.8 : 1. The provided Monarch 4.2 has tune code / damping rate No. 2.
    Looking at the design, I suspect the stroke is rising rate initially, then reducing rate after the mid stroke, which suits the air shock supply (air shocks having end stroke ramp-up).
    I suspect No 2 damping on the Monarch is a "linear" damping tune ?
    If you can assist, then it’ll allow me to initiate discussions with some shock tuners to dial out the damping issues I have.

    Thanks.

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    Would it not be worth cosidering bitting the bullet and going for a CCDB so you can tune it to your preference. At the end of the day the AM rides so light i doubt you'd notice a huge difference in RIDING WEIGHT even though it would add over a pound of static weight? I'm assuming the CCDB dosent have the blow thru problem that air shocks like the monarch and fox do?

    Just a thought, i'm sure once Dipper initiates the shock test we will discover coil is the way forward.

    Derek
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  3. #3
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    Hi TLR the web site says that the AM was designed around an air shock so I am guessing that your suspisions are correct would be nice to get a comment from Nicolai direct.

  4. #4
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    Garry AM - My civil engineering friend has analysed the pivot locations and come up with the following.
    The initial sag takes up the falling rate which then progresses into a linear stroke before progressing into faalling rate again.
    He suggests this works perfecdtly with an air shock as the falling rate at the beginning of the stroke works in conjunction with the shocks initial stiction (being air / seals, etc) , then the mid stroke is linear (my Monarch needs more rebound - PUSH upgrade please aqnyone), then entering the falling rate again, the air shock commences it's natural ramp up.

    I think this is what he suggested anyway - sounds plausible - Nicolai got any comments ?

    I wish the Nicolai guys were as available on here as Dave Turner and Dave Weagle are over on the Turner board - That way, we could cut out all the assumptions.

    Karl - We know you're out there

  5. #5
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    TLR I sent Simon (Nicolai UK) a PM earlier as I noticed he was reading this thread about lunch time. I asked him for more detail as it will help me / TF Tuned; tune the BOS Stoy I have ordered.

    Nicolai have got back to me and its going to Karl and the Tech's in the factory to answer.
    Last edited by Garry AM; 01-16-2009 at 01:41 PM.

  6. #6
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    Yeah i'd suggest contacting Germany direct (Karl) uk guys dont seem interested, best i've had are 5 or 6 word replies to emails.
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  7. #7
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    garry AM - let me know the result of the factory response please as I may be going BOS too

  8. #8
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    Ok will do TLR

  9. #9
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    Lol
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    What bike is the Stoy going on? I've heard very good things about them - Tim F raves about them and the Australian distributor for Nicolai has one on his Ion and loves it.
    They also have the advantage of having a UK distributor and service centre unlike the CCDB.

  11. #11
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    geetee - how did the AM demo go ?

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    Ah well slight hiccup on the demo front - Nicolai UK were there in force with lots of very lovely Nicolais but unfortunately no hardware to mount the shock onto the Helius AM, so it wasn't available. Which was a shame because it was just stunning in one of the 'baby' blue type colours, except a little darker and with a touch of gray in it (Fernblau I think it was), and red anodised levers, full XT/Thomson/891/Fox 36 Talas RC2s etc. Very nice indeed and hadn't even been ridden.
    They are sending it off to MBR/Dirt/MBUK etc to be test ridden then I may get a chance to have a go but either way keep your eyes peeled for a mag review.
    On a separate note, the guys from Nicolai UK are top people - Mike, Simon and (I assume) Simon's partner (sorry I didn't get you name if you're reading this but it was lovely to meet you) all hugely enthusiastic, helpful and knowledgeable. And they all clearly love riding bikes.
    Seeing an AM in the flesh though just made me want one even more.

  13. #13
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    geetee, what other Nicolai's were there?

  14. #14
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    probably didn't have a 57mm shock, so used the old no bushings to fit excuse

  15. #15
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    back to the leverage rate - any feedback from the factory ? Karl Nicolai - can you help ?

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    The other bikes were mostly Helius CCs and Argon FRs. I've already tested the CC and was pretty impressed with it. For where I do trail rides, it's more than enough but the geometry isn't quite how I would want it. I was going to take out a Rholof equipped Argon but I bottled it and stuck with my current trail bike. They had a Nonius or two as well. All the bikes had a Rholof option as well.

    I head from Mike that they have a Medium Helius ST going spare up in Keswick Bikes - fire engine red with a black ano rear and a 1 1/8th head tube, which is the reason its spare - the customer wanted a 1.5. There was talk of a deal. Anyone interested should get in touch with Mike or Simon.

  17. #17
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    geetee - were the bikes Nicolai UK supplied or HFTH suplied ?

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    HFTH have their own CC and Argon FR with a Rholof. I believe the rest belonged to Nicolai.

  19. #19
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    Geetee - Thats great to hear about the Nicolai UK guys being so enthusiastic and helpful, makes me wonder why they are so bad at communicating via email; it gives a very bad impression where as your opinion after meeting them is completley different!!!

    I think they should come on here more often and make a better impression?

    They should get some lessons from the Turner guys
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  20. #20
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    guys - any more word on the leverage rate from Germany yet ?
    I'm needing this info for my new special project

    fwiw, the pedal strike is now so bad, I managed to bend a Flatboy axle today

  21. #21
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    I believe Nicolai are putting together some info we may all be interested in. I know they're busy though so have some patience(I know thats hard for an only child like yourself!)

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    Yes I got a message from Simon that Karl is putting the leverage rates etc on to the web site for us.

  23. #23
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    Sweet
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  24. #24
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    garry am - any word yet ? i need the leverage rates for my shock tune / dyno and base setting recommendation(s), thanks !

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    No nothing yet! I need it too to pick up my Stoy.

  26. #26
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    arrrgh !
    anyone else able to help - i thought this sort of technical response would be easy to retrieve.....
    try asking this on the Turner board regarding a Turner design and the answer is forthcoming almost immediately !

  27. #27
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    email Karl - kalle@nicolai.net
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  28. #28
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    TLR, Can you not measure it yourself? is it not just a case of lifting the rear wheel by say 5mm and measuring the stroke used on the shock, then another 5mm and measure again and so on and so on until you've measured the full suspension travel. you could use either Excel or Cad to plot your results and reveal your suspension curve/rate. I have seen web sites that give you proper directions on how to measure your suspension. Have a look.

  29. #29
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    and it makes not a blind bit of difference for your purposes anyway! get on the bike, ride it, spend 3 months tweaking to suit. Sorted!

  30. #30
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    sdr08 - good idea !
    i'll do it in the morning if the snow continues ........

  31. #31
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    Guys -- Chart arrived from Karl and Simon at Nicolai and Nicolai UK this afternoon.
    Basically, a very linear rate with a small amount of ramp up at the end of stroke.
    interesting, as this should suit a coil with less HSC / HSR better than an air shock, as air shocks naturally tend to bind towards the end of their stroke too !

    Nicolai took their time as they've accurately plotted all 4 pivot settings for the AM.

    oh, now confirmed is the AM's max travel of 167mm too

    I'll let Nicolai post the image once they're ready to do so for all the models, but I'm very very impressed with their efforts to get the info to me for this weekends 'project'

    Thanks guys,

    Simon.

  32. #32
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    Im sure its not secret information just for you - post it.
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  33. #33
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    don't know how to post it, but would prefer to let nicolai post all of them together, as it's not fair for the non-AM owners

  34. #34
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    derek - here's the 6 pack's graph to keep you going - explain it to me and i'll show you the AM's

    6Pack+Wires=New Toy (Techno-geeks only)

  35. #35
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    oh - dipper - fwiw, check the link and be aware the 6 pack barely dips below 3:1 lev ratio, whereas my interpolation from karl's graph shows A MUCH MORE EFFICIENT RATIO of approx 2.8:1 throughout the stroke. i'll interpolate the leverage ratio curve tomorrow and get derekr to CAD them and post them up.
    the only thing needed now is to get it on a dyno and see how it reacts under force - does gravity sports want to buy a shock tuning dyno for me to play on ?????? i'll supply the laptop and cable connections

  36. #36
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    If this is the way to get the perfect shock setup why dont the manufacturers do this and save a bit of pi$$ing about
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  37. #37
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    i dont want them to do it - i want to do it - i'm an engineer, doncha know

  38. #38
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    they probably do look at standard tune shocks and mate the best standard tune to their leverage rate, but to really dial it in, you need to know the riders weight, riding style, terrrain, and the finite absolute curve rate......this way the shock can be tuned to reflect the leverage curve - as long as the shock has the ability to be tuned , footprinted and fine tuned on the trail.
    basically, most riders wouldn't care about the accuracy achievable with a custom tune, and companies like nicolai and turner recognise SOME of their customers love to engineer solutions - i'm one of them.
    you like posting pictures, i like fettling LOL

  39. #39
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    TLR, I think your looking for a complex solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I'm no expert at suspension but I believe you need/want a linear rate through the stroke of the shock as the damping is controlled by shims, needles, oil that does not vary through the stroke unlike the spring or air that supports it but I'll get to this later. I know in some applications (like a road going motorbike) where they fit a rising rate linkage and this is to deal with the extremes between a rider on his own or a bike fully laden with luggage and pillion to prevent it bottoming out. I think you'll also find that no matter whether you have a single pivot or a complex linkage your lever ratio will be roughly in the same ball park because if you have a 160mm of travel and you are using a 57mm stroke shock it doesn't matter if you have a fancy linkage or a single pivot as the ratio will still be 2.8 to achieve maximum travel. The main difference will be in the design of the linkages (to create the most linear curve within the tight space and weight restrictions of a modern mountain bike) and the ratio of the linkage as it's easier to control a shock with a lighter spring or lower air pressure than one that has to run a heavier spring or more pressure. I'm also a little confused about your comments about the differences in air and coil shocks as what I understand about them is that if a spring is rated at 500lbs it takes 500lbs of force to compress that spring one inch which means it takes 1000lbs to compress it two inches which is similar to the way an air shock works as the pressure increases. Your comment about mating standard tune shocks to a bikes leverage rate is all wrong as companies do specifiy what they want in a shock, the Fox air shock fitted to my bike is available in three different compression or rebound configurations which if you take into account the option for a larger can that gives eighteen different configuration before you even look at shock length or stroke which should roughly cover all bases. Your Nicolai AM seems to be at the forefront of suspension design and does not appear to have any geometry issues so I would imagine it's just a case of fettling the damping, spring rates or air pressure to dial it in perfectly for your riding style. Have fun .

  40. #40
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    air compression is not simply doubling for twice the rate - it's actually an inverse relationship - otherwise you're just about right.
    i've plotted the leverage chart and as such i can see where the linkage design exceeds 2.8 : 1 and is less than 2.8 : 1 allowing me more visibility of where LSC and HSC needs increased / decreased.
    it's not as simple as i've previously alluded to, but few people are interested in linearising the shock to the frame's rate, whereas i'm just curious to see how easy it will be to achieve.
    the AM's curve is almost linear , but it does exhibit nuances either side of the linear line, as detailed above.
    and unless you tune your shock (coil's better than air as it is truly tuneable, whereas air struggles to be tuned for increased rebound) for your riding style and frame's characteristics, then any 'off-the-shelf' shock will be compromised.

    i'm delighted i have the ability to amend and fidddle with the settings provided with the AM's adjustable geometry and the CCDB's circuitry adjustability and will endeavour to provide the optimised settings (for me) once i get there...........

    what's the point in spending a couple of grand on a frame and £650 on a shock and not utilising the adjustability to find out how good it can really be

  41. #41
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    TLR, "air compression is not simply doubling for twice the rate - it's actually an inverse relationship" bit confused as to what you mean by inverse relationship? are you trying to say that the pressure decreases???? It doesn't.
    Where your linkage ratio increases or decreases throughout your suspension travel has no bearing on how much Low or High Speed Compression/Rebound damping you require as the damping is linear throughout the travel. The purpose of your damping is to assist/control your spring during compression/extension and will not ramp up or increase at certain points of the travel to match your linkage. I would imagine that you already have the correct spring weight and length for your bike/riding style and it is just a case of tweaking the damping to suit.
    As for your comment about "air struggles to be tuned for increased rebound" that's a load of b***ocks, My Fox air shock rebound damping works perfectly well on all surface and at all speeds, the only problem I have with air shocks is that the pressure and preload are linked and cannot be adjusted seperately but it doesn't stop it from working brilliantly for most circumstances.

    You must find a problem first before you can find a solution .

  42. #42
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    well, we beg to disagree...

    "the only problem I have with air shocks is that the pressure and preload are linked and cannot be adjusted seperately"

    and hereby lies the fundamental problem if you want to dial in specific performance parameters into the shock you're running..........

    i do, therefore i'll endeavour to determine the settings needed for the AM by the appliance of science and some theoretic analysis, backed up with some severe rock runs to boot ... please don't take offence, but air shocks simply cannot offer the same performance as the CCDB irrespective. however , i do accept that most people would be satisfied with the standard supplied unit....

    no disrespect sdr08, but are you running your Fox air on a Helius AM ?

  43. #43
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    TLR, I never said that air shocks were perfect and I do favour a coil but for 95% of my riding the air shock works perfectly and is very controlled/damped.

    I was just pointing out that you keep linking the suspension ratio to the damping when it doesn't matter. A ratio of 2.8 might work with 3 or 4 clicks of compression where a ratio of 2.85 might work with 5 or 6 clicks that's the only affect it has on your shock.

    I don't want to burst your bubble but you will only be able to tune the shock so that it feels right for you but this won't mean it's the best or correct settings....it will only be your interpretation of what a shock should feel like. In my experience it's usually settings that feel a little harsh, or a little vague that give you your fastest times and these are the settings you would usually dismiss without proper analysis. If you wanted to actually measure your progress you would have to create a loop with a good mix of terrain and time yourself over and over again whilst trying to maintain the same pace time and time again......but the only problem is variables...fatigue, stamina, fitness, weather conditions and so on.....My local loop can vary by as much as 10 minutes a lap on the same bike in the same conditions so I must be a very big variable (actually I think I've already been told this).

    An air shock might not offer the same performance as a CCDB but then it's not the bike or it's parts but the rider who makes the difference....you need to get out riding and just enjoy yourself.

    No I'm not running an air shock on the AM neither have I got an AM.

    Have fun.

  44. #44
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    the leverage ratio and it's effect on suspension performance IS amendable by the use of compression adjustment.
    this basically forms the input i refer to, to tune the shock to the bike.
    as the AM has adjustable rear travel and the leverage rate is affected by these adjustments to travel settings, compression adjustment will keep the shock in tune with the bike's stroke / linkage characteristic.

    i expect you understand suspension performance and adjustability, but fail to understand my predicament and reason for the need / desire to tune in accordance with the leverage rate and frame's stroke characteristic, which, with the CCDB , i am able to do.

    keep providing input - it's all positive !

    oh - i also now have settings from Cane Creek based on the leverage rate chart i received from Nicolai, fwiw

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    .....and the settings are?

  46. #46
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    ryates - go measure your settings and PM me - I'll PM back some info on receipt of your settings.

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    for my settings go to thread called "CCDB settings for Nics".

  48. #48
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    TLR, yes your suspension performance IS amendable by the use of compression adjustment….and rebound but only linear. You keep referring to the lever ratio as being critical….it’s not to you….it’s only critical during the original design stage (unless your about to design a new linkage for it?). Your bike has a standard linkage ratio designed to be as linear as possible and your shock and its damping is designed to work within this ratio so all you have to do is select the correct spring rate and tune the damping to suit. If your linkage ratio does have a couple of spikes these will be negligible and your settings will always be comprised due to the variety of terrain, speed and riding ability anyway.

    I think I do understand your predicament. You have pedal strike issue of which you blame your Monarch and possibly the lever ratio of your AM but you seem to fail to understand the basic principals of how your suspension actually works or what it does. Your linkage is linear (or as close as) your damping is linear (and cannot be tuned to adapt to spikes in the linkage ratio) and your spring rates are a simple calculation a way.

    And your latest thread on dropping the travel down to 150mm ‘transforming the bike to an absolute trail crusher’…..think about it….at a 167mm of travel and 57mm of shock travel you had a ratio of 1:2.93 and dropping down to 150mm of travel with the same shock gave you a ratio of 1:2.63…..Mmmm sounds like your spring rate and damping was approximately 11% out at your 167mm setting. The difference between the two ratios equates to a difference of approximately 50lb in spring rate! Have you tried a 50lb stronger spring and suitable damping settings in the 167mm mode? If not your not being very scientific in your research are you! Also the Monarch shock you were previously running had a stroke of 51mm and in the 167mm travel option this only gave you 150mm! so this is what you’ve been running for most of your riding until you recently fitted the CCDB is it not!

    Examples:
    Riders weight = 168lb
    Bike Sprung weight = 24lb
    Total weight = 192lb
    Suspension Ratio = 1:2.93 (167mm travel)
    Spring Rate = 192 x 2.93 = 562lb

    Riders weight = 168lb
    Bike Sprung weight = 24lb
    Total weight = 192lb
    Suspension Ratio = 1:2.63 (150mm travel)
    Spring Rate = 192 x 2.63 = 505lb

    Have fun .

  49. #49
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    sdr08 - yes, I have ran the 550# spring, the 500# spring and the 450# spring trying to deternmine the best setting[s] in as scientific manner as possible !
    additionally, by varying the preload pressure in the monarch, i've attempted to reach a 'perfect' compromise dependant on travel setting.
    keep your info coming - all help appreciated

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lecht_Rocks
    Guys -- Chart arrived from Karl and Simon at Nicolai and Nicolai UK this afternoon.
    Basically, a very linear rate with a small amount of ramp up at the end of stroke.
    interesting, as this should suit a coil with less HSC / HSR better than an air shock, as air shocks naturally tend to bind towards the end of their stroke too !

    Nicolai took their time as they've accurately plotted all 4 pivot settings for the AM.

    oh, now confirmed is the AM's max travel of 167mm too

    I'll let Nicolai post the image once they're ready to do so for all the models, but I'm very very impressed with their efforts to get the info to me for this weekends 'project'

    Thanks guys,

    Simon.
    I can´t find this information on nicolai´s web site

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