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  1. #1
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    Helius AM 29er ?????

    I feel a Helius AM 29er coming on strong

    End goal, a 29er machine capable of all that my FR gets handed.......

    Its the DAM colour of the frame that is the hardest part to decide..... I have some sick schemes in my head too..... Mmmmm

    Thank you Karl and Nicolai in advance, everything starts with a thought!
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Are you really that much into 29:ers? I have owned one, didn't like it. Sold it half a year later.

    It just never felt as snappy as a 26in bike. Worst was toe overlap though, I ride flats and ride kind of mid foot so when turning the front tyre hit my shoe

    Pros: theoretically rolls over things better.
    Cons: Weaker wheels, toe-overlap, not as playful, need longer wheelbase, higher bar height etc.

    For a XC-bike I can see it working okay but are you sure about replacing your FR with a 29:er?

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    Is it already in the works ?

    p.s. Although the earthquakte already happened some days ago and mainly (that's what's been reported here) hit the south-island, I hope you and your family are ok, and also "your" farms !

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    Your a little ahead of the times Whafe. No doubt an interesting project, but certainly not one I wish to emulate.

    What forks are you planning on using?

  5. #5
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    re: colour.
    Thats a damn tricky one. For me its still raw, but going by the offerings at interbike this year, it's soon to be the new white....

    Failing that, I still love the classic red and Black.

    How about raw with gold ano parts? Super bling!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikael_nr1
    Are you really that much into 29:ers? I have owned one, didn't like it. Sold it half a year later.

    It just never felt as snappy as a 26in bike. Worst was toe overlap though, I ride flats and ride kind of mid foot so when turning the front tyre hit my shoe

    Pros: theoretically rolls over things better.
    Cons: Weaker wheels, toe-overlap, not as playful, need longer wheelbase, higher bar height etc.

    For a XC-bike I can see it working okay but are you sure about replacing your FR with a 29:er?
    Yep, really am that much into 29er's.

    For me the pro's far out weigh the con's.... For me the weaker wheel scenario is in the past, wheels have vastly improved.... Dont agree with toe overlap issues....

    Am I sure about replacing my FR, for me am keen to push the boundaries if that makes sense. It may not be as good, but I believe it could be and that means I have to push it and see....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testmaen
    Is it already in the works ?

    p.s. Although the earthquakte already happened some days ago and mainly (that's what's been reported here) hit the south-island, I hope you and your family are ok, and also "your" farms !
    Yep, lets say it is in the works, working through the first drawings as we speak.... Going to be finding that balance of CS length, HA, SA and FORK

    Testy, thanks for your kind thoughts on the earthquake, she was a ripper for sure, has caused a load of damage as am sure has been reported, it will be years and years before all is back to what I guess is defined as normal....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpm100
    Your a little ahead of the times Whafe. No doubt an interesting project, but certainly not one I wish to emulate.

    What forks are you planning on using?
    Not sure if ahead of the times is correct, could be deemed as dumb

    I have to do this though, the AC 29er has been an absolutely awesome bike, and of course still is... If I could only have one bike, it would be the AC 29er out of my bikes at present....

    I still love what I can ride and do on the FR, so I wish to, well lets say try to get to this type of capability with a 29er.....

    The weakness at this point is for sure forks... This is a pain for sure.... I am wanting to build it to suit a 150 - 160mm fork, but fully realise that at this point, reality is kind of that 140mm is where it is at today.. But change is constant, really feel there is some forks in the wind....

    I of course have looked into the possibility of the Dorado fork, but really dont think it could be used like say a Lyric or Talas, for sure more DH, but this is not what I am trying to work towards.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpm100
    re: colour.
    Thats a damn tricky one. For me its still raw, but going by the offerings at interbike this year, it's soon to be the new white....

    Failing that, I still love the classic red and Black.

    How about raw with gold ano parts? Super bling!
    Done the full raw thing, yummy for sure.... Have some other thoughts, but the colour will not be shared until unveiling

    Agree though, black and red is still the billies, awesome colours.... Gold is not for me.....

    Am totally into black components and the only real colour in the frame and linkages etc....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  10. #10
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    oh dear - lets hope the wagon wheels alleviate the pedal strike.

    one step too far this time whafemeister methinks...................?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lecht_Rocks
    oh dear - lets hope the wagon wheels alleviate the pedal strike.

    one step too far this time whafemeister methinks...................?
    Gotta love you for telling it how it is...

    Now dont want to have this thread derailed on pedal strike, but truly feel that you are in the minority in regards to pedal strike, I dont suffer it at all, but perhaps I am not railing corners to your level, but am perplexed by the pedal strike you suffer...

    In regards to one step to far, you could well be right TLR, however we will not know unless I try.... And try I will...... Am certain many will think I am nuts, but that is nothing unusual, have been called far worse
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    not sure what you'll achieve over and above the AC 29er.

    I suspect the AC is already a stronger frame than most compatible forks currently on the market. other than slackening it out a fraction and maybe beefing it up here and there(AM tubing will do that obviously) you'll still be restricted in rear travel and fork travel/strength. trying to build in some decent AM like travel could result in some real comedy proportions no?

    Assuming 150/160mm 29er forks do appear you're going to be looking at a seriously jacked front end. i suppose flat bars and 1.5HT running 1 1/8th forks and flush headset would help.

    Still, I say go for it. Should be interesting to see if it's possible to make it work
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper
    not sure what you'll achieve over and above the AC 29er.
    You may well have a point, I am not looking for the travel of a DH bike, I want something strong, that if I want to do a large jump, I can.. Dont want to worry about snapping a frame.... Which is why am looking to an AM frame.....

    It is for sure going to be difficult to keep a shortish CS, more travel and a full seat post tube.....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  14. #14
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    First drawings from Nicolai are in my hot hands, have to say, first draft version looks very good, all you haters may have to eat humble pie

    Few adjustments and be good to go.......

    YEAH HA
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    hows it look? whats the HA? rear travel? BB height?

    and what a>c fork are you planning it round?
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper
    hows it look? whats the HA? rear travel? BB height?

    and what a>c fork are you planning it round?
    Travel = 142.4mm rear travel
    HA = 69 deg
    BB = 430 mm
    A - C = working on 546mm (140mm Reba) Want to check out the A-C on the Marz 44 140mm....

    Another thought I had was to see if some Fox internals could fit in the chasis of a White Brothers 150mm, long shot....
    Last edited by Whafe; 10-02-2010 at 09:08 PM.
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    Whafe,Why dont you have an AC 29 with heavier tubes,Are you having an adjustable travel rear end?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam
    Whafe,Why dont you have an AC 29 with heavier tubes,Are you having an adjustable travel rear end?
    Yep, will be an adjustable rear end....

    upper hole: 142,39mm
    2nd. hole: 130,39mm
    3rd. hole: 120,85mm
    4th. hole: 112,99mm

    For sure want to run a more AM type. Am also looking at possibly running a AFR rear on it, which would enable the chainstays to be shorter, and move the seat tube further forward... Am still working this one through with Nicolai...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Hmm Whafe,I am confused,Its not really an AM,i was thinking it was going to be 160mm+ travel frame,Not a custom AC 29ER.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam
    Hmm Whafe,I am confused,Its not really an AM,i was thinking it was going to be 160mm+ travel frame,Not a custom AC 29ER.
    I am not totally worried about the travel, yes would love 6 inches of travel, but we have the issue with the seat tube and the chainstays getting to long......

    It is a work in progress, this was never going to be easy..... Am in for the challange....
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  21. #21
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    Wow...29er hate on the Nicolai forum is strong!

    Whafe...don't sweat it, a 140mm 29er will kill it with the right geometry! It's true the forks are lagging a bit...maybe go 1.5" with the HT & use an angleset to get the right HTA with a 140mm fork until the new 150mm/ 36mm stanchioned fork is released


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Wow...29er hate on the Nicolai forum is strong!

    Whafe...don't sweat it, a 140mm 29er will kill it with the right geometry! It's true the forks are lagging a bit...maybe go 1.5" with the HT & use an angleset to get the right HTA with a 140mm fork until the new 150mm/ 36mm stanchioned fork is released
    Haha, JNC, you have read my mind, that is what is on order, a 1.5HT and a Cane Creek Angle Set, of which will give me options when the forks come out in the near future....

    I would like to try the Marz 44, but am not keen on the 15mm axle, I have just had my 120mm Reba serviced and re built, feels great, just hope the 140 mm Reba is as good.... A coil 140mm would be the business though......

    Oh yes the hate is strong, they are yet to come around, they will, they always do
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Wow...29er hate on the Nicolai forum is strong!

    Whafe...don't sweat it, a 140mm 29er will kill it with the right geometry! It's true the forks are lagging a bit...maybe go 1.5" with the HT & use an angleset to get the right HTA with a 140mm fork until the new 150mm/ 36mm stanchioned fork is released
    I wouldn't say "Hate" as much as I'd say "Clue-less" Come on guys if not for Whafe this place would be dead, He knows more about bikes than 80% the guys here ( if your not part of this 80% don't sweat it, and if you are,ask me if I give a fu@k) Like he said the # 1 bike in his stable is his AC-29er..HELLO..... .I get the whole 29er thing and I STILL get amped up when I read this from Whafe....Look very much forward to seeing this project Whafe.....CF.

  24. #24
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    I wouldnt say 'hate' or 'clueless'(although there's some truth to that). it's more pisstaking than anything.

    we'd probably all like to try it but for whatever reason 29ers just havnt takin off over here. I own a bike shop(albiet a small, specialist one) and I've never been asked for a 29er. Not once. why? i dunno.

    It's great that whafes doing what he's doing. i doubt if there's any of us that dont like to see this sort of enthusiasm and boundary pushing. Doesnt mean we cant take the piss though
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  25. #25
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    whafe
    the AFR idea sounds like an excellent plan if you can keep it reasonably light. it'll keep the c/stays short, maybe give a bit more travel and allow you to get the saddle well out the way on descents. Current limitation will still be the fork however.
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  26. #26
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    Crazy Fred - You are well missed, love your passion bro.... Hope life is going well...

    dipper, I love the piss take on this for sure.... I did however think a few more of you experienced dudes in Europe on Nicolai's would have moved into investigation mode seriously... I mean the Orange AC29er has been beaten for over a year now, and is stand out, hence moving onto another project....

    Totally agree on limitation on forks.... Is a patience thing, of which I have none.... LOL...

    Not many fork options is not going to hold me back....

    Am really interested to hear the feedback from Marcel and Karl on the AFR rear end to help shorten the chainstays hopefully, and allow the saddle well out of the way when it is slammed down
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  27. #27
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    it's not just the rear end though is it? you'll need to be looking at essentially an AFR frame with AM tubing really as you'll need the ST/BB area of the AFR also

    I'm still tempted by either an AC 29er or an Argon FR but we'll see
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper
    it's not just the rear end though is it? you'll need to be looking at essentially an AFR frame with AM tubing really as you'll need the ST/BB area of the AFR also

    I'm still tempted by either an AC 29er or an Argon FR but we'll see
    Yes kind of, but feel comfy with more an AM set up in the front triangle... 69deg HA, 74 deg SA....

    Cant go wrong with the AC 29er...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    Haha, JNC, you have read my mind, that is what is on order, a 1.5HT and a Cane Creek Angle Set, of which will give me options when the forks come out in the near future....

    I would like to try the Marz 44, but am not keen on the 15mm axle, I have just had my 120mm Reba serviced and re built, feels great, just hope the 140 mm Reba is as good.... A coil 140mm would be the business though......

    Oh yes the hate is strong, they are yet to come around, they will, they always do
    Exactly like I was thinking on all points. Must have is the 1.5 for the Angle set. Whafe, I once had a friend (fellow doc) who was 6'7". He had a custom 26" steel frame. I always tried to push him to 29". Seeing him on a little itty bitty 26'r made me realize that there really should be larger wheels for us taller folk. No way am I going back to 20" wheels, and I think 26" wheels should be a thing of the past for anyone over 6'1 with a 200lb frame on them. I think for the average, tiny little man (!!!) at 5'10 and 170lbs, a 26" bike is perfect. But for us real men, pushing 6'2" and 200 (well, I am pushing 200 lately, dunno about you) a 29'r is so tempting, and probably the best compromise.

    If I ever do a 29'r, the AC is on my short list of 1. I commend you for pushing the limits of the 29'r. I agree that 140-160mm or travel would be the perfect AM 'one bike' machine for you.

    For me, well... I seem to be shrinking a bit of late. So, I may have to stick with 26'r for the foreseeable future.

    Keep us posted on the goodness. Damn, I love Nicolai. Oh, and you have to consider the bronze color scheme. I think it shows off the welds the best, it's like: "bam!!!" in your face, perfect welds.

    PS: the tank girl camo build is still pending photos. I'll update asap, as we decided to totally change the fork (and hub), waiting on the new CK bits to come in.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought
    Exactly like I was thinking on all points. Must have is the 1.5 for the Angle set. Whafe, I once had a friend (fellow doc) who was 6'7". He had a custom 26" steel frame. I always tried to push him to 29". Seeing him on a little itty bitty 26'r made me realize that there really should be larger wheels for us taller folk. No way am I going back to 20" wheels, and I think 26" wheels should be a thing of the past for anyone over 6'1 with a 200lb frame on them. I think for the average, tiny man (!!!) at 5'10 and 170lbs, a 26" bike is perfect. But for us real men, pushing 6'2" and 200 (well, I am pushing 200 lately, dunno about you) a 29'r is so tempting, and probably the best compromise.
    Agree totally with you, it is good to feel a bike fittith the man....

    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought
    If I ever do a 29'r, the AC is on my short list of 1. I commend you for pushing the limits of the 29'r. I agree that 140-160mm or travel would be the perfect AM 'one bike' machine for you.

    For me, well... I seem to be shrinking a bit of late. So, I may have to stick with 26'r for the foreseeable future.

    Keep us posted on the goodness. Damn, I love Nicolai. Oh, and you have to consider the bronze color scheme. I think it shows off the welds the best, it's like: "bam!!!" in your face, perfect welds..
    Most will say I am biased, but the AC 29er is a fantastic bike, said it once, will say it again, would be my bike of choice if I could only have one bike....

    Am hoping that this may become a great great bike like the AC...

    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought
    PS: the tank girl camo build is still pending photos. I'll update asap, as we decided to totally change the fork (and hub), waiting on the new CK bits to come in.
    Yes very much looking forward to seeing the Tank Girl Camo fully built up, get us some pics please....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    I guess you already looked into that, but can that new DH Intense be of any orientation/inspiration to you? I mean geometry-wise ...

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    A bit off-topic, but here in Germany a new marketing driven 29" wave/whafe is coming. I've never driven one, so no hattin' or lovin' from me. I see the paper pro/con's, how that translates into real-biking-world experience, I don't know.

    Io far I haven't heard of anybody on the German Nic forum to order a 29" Helius AC or Argon. Maybe to fresh, maybe real-bikers just ride their bikes outside, instead of in front of the computer and don't speak about it .. I don't know.

    I'd love to see a 29er Helius RC. 90-100mm travel, fast rolling wheels, light ... would be an Epic kiss good-bye.

    p.s. I looove puns.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testmaen
    I guess you already looked into that, but can that new DH Intense be of any orientation/inspiration to you? I mean geometry-wise ...
    Yep for sure scoped out the 2951 from Intense.... A real slack bike, however, built around a 180mm fork.... Still a beast of a bike...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testmaen
    A bit off-topic, but here in Germany a new marketing driven 29" wave/whafe is coming. I've never driven one, so no hattin' or lovin' from me. I see the paper pro/con's, how that translates into real-biking-world experience, I don't know.

    Io far I haven't heard of anybody on the German Nic forum to order a 29" Helius AC or Argon. Maybe to fresh, maybe real-bikers just ride their bikes outside, instead of in front of the computer and don't speak about it .. I don't know.

    I'd love to see a 29er Helius RC. 90-100mm travel, fast rolling wheels, light ... would be an Epic kiss good-bye.

    p.s. I looove puns.
    It still very much surprises me that the 29er wave as you say has not hit Europe as yet. I think that with the new rules in Europe that allow 29ers to race, am sure things will change...

    I hear that the AC 29er will be in the new catalogue that is upcoming...

    Agree though, a Helius RC 29er would haul a s s for sure....

    Best you get out and have a ride on a 29er...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    I hear that the AC 29er will be in the new catalogue that is upcoming...
    Oh sh.t, thanks for reminding .. have to order that anniversary catalouge asap.

  36. #36
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    i rode a 69'er.
    just didn't gel with the wagon wheel front end.
    it was slower to turn, provided less zip and feedback and had more flex.

    it may have been the wheel build alone but it left me un-impressed.

    i'll reserve final judgement for now.

  37. #37
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    Whafe! Looking forward very much to seeing what you have in mind for your AM 29er. Also, if you haven't, look at the Banshee Claymore thread...looks to be a cool bike as well.

    I just bought my first 29er. Pretty fun bike and definitely would like to try a slack 5"-ish FS 29er (hoping to ride Bikerbob's Ti Rockstar tomorrow when he rolls into town ). So far the pro's are outweighing the con's in the 26 vs. 29 hardtail clash.

    Bikes are fun.

    Cheers.
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  38. #38
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    Subscribing to this thread, bro... at the very least, I'm intrigued.

    Inverted forks are nowadays the best solution for long travel 29'ers which kinda sucks as they slightly wimpier than normal forks.

    What about getting with the folks at Maverick and order a DUC32??? They have a 29'er version, but I don't know the travel on the thing. I think they could pull a one off. Sucks getting limited in hubs and stems, but the damping is said to be both nice and tunable.

    140mm of 29'er is like 160mm or more on a 26'er. I think larger wheels make perfect sense for taller people... but I'm thinking about one myself. A cheap hardtail to try.

    Forget the DUC... the travel on the 29'er is barely 110mm... I'd go with a Dorado or a second hand Shiver to experiment with.
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    Yeah ha, have the next round of drawings.... To say I am excited is an understatement... Have 150mm (5.9 inch) of rear travel, and chainstays that are now 447mm (17.6 inch)

    Mmmmmmmmmmm, the AFR rear config seems to be a gooden at present......
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  40. #40
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    Subsribed. That sounds perfect. Maybe I will get one also
    Always wanted a Nicolai but they did not make a long travel 29er. I am very interested in this project

  41. #41
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    Million dollar question, do I build this frame with Helius AM tubing or Helius AFR tubing....

    A medium AFR frame without shock is 4.5 Kg and an medium AM frame without shock is 4.1 Kg.....

    I await the final drawing, yeah ha
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe
    A medium AFR frame without shock is 4.5 Kg and an medium AM frame without shock is 4.1
    Does the 10% increase in weight equate to a greater than 10% increase in strength? Then it comes down to if you are really going to let this bike fly or not...

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momentus
    Does the 10% increase in weight equate to a greater than 10% increase in strength? Then it comes down to if you are really going to let this bike fly or not...
    Well have to agree... This bike is not going to be doing the Rampage 50 foot 50 foot jump, but do like to do what I can..... In reality it is more or less what an AM frame is capable of.....

    Would it be fair to say that the AFR would be more than 10% stronger than the AM?

    Will await to hear the thoughts of Marcel / Kalle from Nicolai...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  44. #44
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    Cant wait to see the drawing. Kalle may be getting an email from me if I like what i see.
    I would do the AFR tubing to keep it a little stonger.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles
    I would do the AFR tubing to keep it a little stonger.
    Have to agree here. I doubt i would hear you say, "Boy, that 400grams is really slowing me down" vs "I'm glad I went with the extra frame weight as I don't have to think about whether or not it can handle that jump"

    Worry more about the wheel / tire weight than the frame weight. At 0.4kg vs a full bike at 13.6kg it's less than 3% difference...

  46. #46
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    If there was the fork selection available, I would jump at the AFR tubing... Which they will come in time am sure...

    Am still undecided, am more inclined at present to go AM, but not to say I will not change my mind... As you say in the scheme of things, 400 grams is not a lot.......

    Will share the final drawing when it comes in......

    Again thanks for the comments, much appreciated
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momentus
    Have to agree here. I doubt i would hear you say, "Boy, that 400grams is really slowing me down" vs "I'm glad I went with the extra frame weight as I don't have to think about whether or not it can handle that jump"

    Worry more about the wheel / tire weight than the frame weight. At 0.4kg vs a full bike at 13.6kg it's less than 3% difference...

    I thought they was now 700g between an AFR and an AM,I would definitely go AM tubing.

  48. #48
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    Interesting project Whafe. I've had a bit of stoke for the FR and DH 29'ers. But, if you don't want to run a Dorado, there's not much point. Have a close friend who recently went down this road. Makes a fun Franken-bike project but ends up being rather impractical without a FR fork on the market.

    I'm sure Nic can build you a nice frame but are you going to hit big gaps on a 140 Reba? Mind if I take out an insurance policy on you?

  49. #49
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    i'm with Err.

    as you say a fork may become available in the future but when? 1 year, 2,3?by that time you'll be thinking about another project and the game will no doubt have moved on again.

    if you're going to do it now then I'd go AM tubing. at least you won't be overly underforked and 400grams is not insignificant.(I suspect it will be more than this on the 29er as well)
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  50. #50
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    I would indeed be BS'ing if I said I am not worried at all about forks!!!!

    It gives me the screaming shi!ts that the fork selection is so poor, but hey, I am just one person whom has no real idea what it costs to bring a 29er fork to the market....

    I am still thinking that I will need to go with the WB Fuid 150mm fork, it totally seems all that will be able to take more of a beating... I think Err makes a very good point, not sure I would want to hit up a decent sized jump on a Reba 140mm fork.....

    I am wanting this bike to replace my Helius FR, which I hit anything my ability allows......

    I think it would be a little silly to go with AFR tubing, am certain the AM tubing will be fine....

    Hope to get the final drawings tonight New Zealand time from Nicolai..... Oh fock, then have to choose a colour scheme..... Who has some totally wild ideas colour wise???
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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