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Thread: Fork for AC???

  1. #1
    "El Whatever"
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    Fork for AC???

    My Pike is already 3yo. Not ridden much in the last two (if at all) and basically it just works as it says on the box.

    I'm looking at options and thinking on a do-it-all fork.

    I'm not fond on 15mm axles, as I'm on 20mm already. Size matters or so my wife says, so I'm also considering a shortened 35-36mm stanchions fork. However, if the best option would be a 15mm fork, I have Hope hubs and convert the front is a non-issue.

    I'd like to keep it at the max setting of 530mm A2C, but I'm happy with the 520mm my Pike has.

    Candidates include the X-Fusion Vengeance (shortened to 150mm), Magura Thor, Fox 36 Float (shortened), Revelation 150mm.

    The Fox 32 line... I can't pinpoint what I don't like about them. Maybe the fact that there isn't a 150mm Van 32. That'd be perfect.

    Discuss, please.
    Last edited by Warp; 10-09-2010 at 11:14 AM.
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    Ive used two DT Swiss forks in my AC, started with EXC-150 (2009 model with 15mm TA, measured A2C is 525mm) and changed that to EXM-150 (2010 model again with 15mm TA, measured A2C is 535mm). EXM is far better option compared to older EXC`s - 2010 EXC`s have totally new internals, similar than EXM and both are at least in same line than Floats or Roxbox-forks. Try to test EXM/ EXC if there`s change to do that - you`ll be amazed.

    Also tried 2010-model 140 mm Fox Van 32 RCL with (older) FIT-damper, good one in conditions where air forks freezes... Plush and nice, but too low AC. Sold that away and ordered 2011 160 VAN 36 RC2, not yet delivered... A2C will be 545mm (which is too much for specs and recommendations) but just right height for me.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by pergamonx
    Ive used two DT Swiss forks in my AC, started with EXC-150 (2009 model with 15mm TA, measured A2C is 525mm) and changed that to EXM-150 (2010 model again with 15mm TA, measured A2C is 535mm). EXM is far better option compared to older EXC`s - 2010 EXC`s have totally new internals, similar than EXM and both are at least in same line than Floats or Roxbox-forks. Try to test EXM/ EXC if there`s change to do that - you`ll be amazed.
    Not many to be seen in Mexico and price-wise, they're usually more expensive on this side of the pond. But I'll look into them anyway!

    Quote Originally Posted by pergamonx
    Also tried 2010-model 140 mm Fox Van 32 RCL with (older) FIT-damper, good one in conditions where air forks freezes... Plush and nice, but too low AC. Sold that away and ordered 2011 160 VAN 36 RC2, not yet delivered... A2C will be 545mm (which is too much for specs and recommendations) but just right height for me.
    That's what I feared of 140mm Fox... too low.

    Now, on the 36 Van, I'll be the first interested on reading your thoughts on how it goes on the AC. Only thing that puts me a bit off is that you can not shorten it to fit the recommended A2C... but at 545mm A2C, the AC should be in the order of 67HA and 72SA, longer wheelbase and effective TT... sweet.
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  4. #4
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    sorry but it HAS to be the Float 150.

    my choice for the AC

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    I've got a 2011 Fox Talas 150-130. So far I am very happy with it but I've no experience with coil forks/shocks!
    The only thing I could say is that it pumps up once in awhile when I ride in very hard conditions... but my AC is only two weeks and I'm still readjusting the bike to my way of riding.
    Still did not find the best set up (or maybe it was not the nest choice )

  6. #6
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    My 36 Float is lighter and much better than the coil pike (with push) it replaced. The RC2 cartridge is nice for preventing dive.
    Id love another for my hardtail, the 120mm Reba with 20mm is a weedy noodle in
    comparison... sod the weight.

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    Going to put my 2010 Float 140 on mine (when I finally get around to building : \ )

    If it feels too short then will try a 150. Will see how it goes. No TALAS though, not plush enough.

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    Yes, the max. a2c is 530, but for normal AM, would a 160mm fork cause any problems? Looking at the headtube area, i belive it is strong enough, if you skip the harsh drops and if you are smooth... Any experience?

    I'm looking for a trail bike to stand next to my AFR and Cove Handjob... and i think that the AC would do a great job with a 55RC3Ti, Crossmax ST or SX and a single ring in front...

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    I would run a 150mm Revelation. Dual air if possible,Nice and tunable,20mm axle.Blackbox damping.
    The AC is a trail bike and in my opinion dosent require a 35/36mm fork.

    Had a revelation on my Turner spot and it was very good,Perfect for an all day/xc bike that you could still play on small drops and downhills.The AC is the same type of bike,If you want to run 36's buy an AM.

    If you do buy a 36mm fork the 55 Rc3 ti looks stunning,just hope that Marzocchi are back to what they used to be.Can you drop the travel on a 55 Ti?

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    The thing is, i already have the 55RC3 Ti. If was for my girlfriend, but she has like 20% SAG on the softest setting possible.

    And the Helius AC is running through my mind, since the AM is too close to AFR, which i alreay have...


    Another option is to buy a 44 RC3 Ti or the 44 Micro Ti... But i don't want to sell it, since is almost brand new... Anyone, 600euros?

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    Quote Originally Posted by androw
    The thing is, i already have the 55RC3 Ti. If was for my girlfriend, but she has like 20% SAG on the softest setting possible.

    And the Helius AC is running through my mind, since the AM is too close to AFR, which i alreay have...


    Another option is to buy a 44 RC3 Ti or the 44 Micro Ti... But i don't want to sell it, since is almost brand new... Anyone, 600euros?

    Can you reduce the travel on the 55 ti's? as you already have them

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    No, i haven't noticed a 55 with reduced travel... Will the extra 1.5 cm a2c really effect that much on the frame, except the geo?

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    It will lift the BB and would cause warranty problems.But would probably be ok.
    I know some of the 55's you can reduce the travel,These could be the air only versions

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    I've calculated all the geo numbers and it is ok to me. Even if the frame cracks, they could not prove me that i had an "illegal" fork on the bike. am i right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by androw
    I've calculated all the geo numbers and it is ok to me. Even if the frame cracks, they could not prove me that i had an "illegal" fork on the bike. am i right?

    mmm.... it gets hotter!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by androw
    I've calculated all the geo numbers and it is ok to me. Even if the frame cracks, they could not prove me that i had an "illegal" fork on the bike. am i right?

    Other than you have posted this on a public forum

  17. #17
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    I'm not going to buy the frame tommorow.... I even don't know if i will take it.

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    So, your main reason to put the 55 on an AC, because your already have the fork ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    That's what I feared of 140mm Fox... too low.

    Now, on the 36 Van, I'll be the first interested on reading your thoughts on how it goes on the AC. Only thing that puts me a bit off is that you can not shorten it to fit the recommended A2C... but at 545mm A2C, the AC should be in the order of 67HA and 72SA, longer wheelbase and effective TT... sweet.
    Geometry-wise your calculations are about right, but in real life those angles depends fully how much sag you`ll use - Ill expect that shortening of fork caused by bigger sag of VAN will easily compensate 10 mm higher A2C. But Ill come back to this when Ive tested it for a while.

    My frame does not know is there a fork with 530mm static AC with 32mm stanchions in front, or one with 545mm static AC with 36mm tubes, if dynamic sag will be about the same. If it can stand my driving with smaller fork, it stands it as well as with bit bigger fork. If it fails, then it`s time to get a new frame

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam
    Can you reduce the travel on the 55 ti's? as you already have them
    Nope... only shortening the rod (read:lathe).

    I have considered one of those also. They're pigs, but the feel should be amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam
    I would run a 150mm Revelation. Dual air if possible,Nice and tunable,20mm axle.Blackbox damping.
    The AC is a trail bike and in my opinion dosent require a 35/36mm fork.
    Well, the Rev is the natural candidate. Light, right numbers, nice damping. I'm just a little off with the topcaps on RS forks. They quite need to be perfect not to leak on the MoCo side.

    Also, the BB damper is said to be a bit harsh when compared to the standard MoCo and I'm pretty light at 140 pounds (64kg). The Dual Flow rebound is really nice, though.

    I also feel like a side move from the Pike.

    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam
    Geometry-wise your calculations are about right, but in real life those angles depends fully how much sag you`ll use - Ill expect that shortening of fork caused by bigger sag of VAN will easily compensate 10 mm higher A2C. But Ill come back to this when Ive tested it for a while.

    My frame does not know is there a fork with 530mm static AC with 32mm stanchions in front, or one with 545mm static AC with 36mm tubes, if dynamic sag will be about the same. If it can stand my driving with smaller fork, it stands it as well as with bit bigger fork. If it fails, then it`s time to get a new frame
    The difference between a Rev 150 @ 30% sag and a Van 36 @ 30% sag is 15mm in A2C and like 12mm at sag. That's like half a degree, roughly once sagged. It's more complicated than that, but you get the idea.

    Point is, the difference in weight respecting to a Pike from any of the 36 offers is kinda minimal unless you count in the Wotan and I'm not looking at the increased travel but the increased stiffness. Better tracking and all that.

    Of course... I may well end up with a 32mm fork at the same 520mm A2C... who knows. The bike rides sweet as it is, but you know how it goes.
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    Hello Warp

    I have in my helius CC a Magura Thor and works grate

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    Its a shame they dont do a Revelation Coil,That would be a good fork

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam
    Its a shame they dont do a Revelation Coil,That would be a good fork

    You could put the U-Turn assembly of a Sektor in a Rev.

    OR the damper of a Rev in a Sektor (supposing they're compatible)... but this second option leaves you with a heavier fork. The Rev chassis is lighter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    You could put the U-Turn assembly of a Sektor in a Rev.

    OR the damper of a Rev in a Sektor (supposing they're compatible)... but this second option leaves you with a heavier fork. The Rev chassis is lighter.

    I have just emailed TF-tuned to find out if this is possible.Coil into a Revelation

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam
    I have just emailed TF-tuned to find out if this is possible.Coil into a Revelation
    That'd be just great!!

    I think there's a Sektor Coil 150... so maybe. As long as the threading of the topcap is the same.

    I'd happily pay for the Rev and the coil assembly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    That'd be just great!!

    I think there's a Sektor Coil 150... so maybe. As long as the threading of the topcap is the same.

    I'd happily pay for the Rev and the coil assembly.

    Tftuned thinks it cannot be done.Something about the Negative spring is in the damper side and it wont fit/work with a Blackbox damping cartridge

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam
    Tftuned thinks it cannot be done.Something about the Negative spring is in the damper side and it wont fit/work with a Blackbox damping cartridge
    Mmmmmhhh... I dunno...

    I'm looking at the Parts Manual from RS...

    They use only ONE topcap for all AIR aluminum crown forks. However, they list several crown-steerer-units, including one for 140mm coil, 150mm coil and one for Solo Air.

    Now, the weird thing about it is that indeed, the manual says you need an All Travel Spacer kit along with the coil version, which is mounted indeed in the damper side.

    If you look at the drawings, the spring assembly goes all the way from top to bottom of the fork. Not like in U-Turn where there's a baseplate in the stanchion holding it from extending further than needed.

    I SUPPOSE (armchair engineering here) that the All Travel spacer is to be used with the 130-140mm version of the coil fork, as the damper shaft is the very same for both Sektor and Rev disregarding of travel. Notice the Solo Air versions share the same damper shaft and the all-travel spacer is on the spring side as there's a sealhead at the bottom of the stanchion.

    If you'd use a 130mm spring with a 150mm rebound shaft, you do the math. If you run 150mm and 150mm on both sides, there should be no probs, assuming the crown can take the coil topcaps.

    Anyone daring enough? I think I'll get the Rev, the parts from the Sektor and play around.

    Lowers are the same, so differences in weight should come from the crown-steerer. Solo air parts and dampers are shared but coil over units have their own P/N.

    Anyone can get inside info?

    Or should I just get a Sektor and a BB unit?
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    Can I bump this thread, as this is my one remaining difficult build question for a Helius AC.

    The builder is recommending the Fox 32 Talas 150. This is going to cost 1500 CHF(1150 EUR, 975 GBP). Components are a little pricey here in Switzerland, but I'm finding the cost a bit hard to stomach and/or justify. Then again, I'm buying a Nicolai...

    I'd had my eye on DT Swiss forks (esp. EXM 150), but the builder says they've been having problems with their Twin Shot technology. But you can get a 2010 model for half the price of the Fox. (Builder says the reason you can is because of the problems!)

    Another option I was given was Rock Shox Sektor RL 2011 for 700 CHF, which seems a bit much compared to US/Germany prices I've seen. Anyway, maybe I can bring it down, but should I avoid it?

    A friend says I must get the Fox and that I'd want to replace the Sektor straight away, but then again he's not spending his money. :-)

    What other options are there? I'll check out the price/function differences with the Revelation. Should I just go for the Fox?

    Factors: pretty much a newbie (yes, buying a Nicolai despite this), prefer lower maintenance/stability/solidity, want to ride smoothly/flowy, speed downhill not an issue. Fox busts my pre-planned budget, but can theoretically be afforded.

    Posting here too to see if any of the discussions turned into a decision that is now viewed positively or negatively.

    Thanks!

  29. #29
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    My advice would be to discard the idea of a Fox TALAS, especially on an AC. I'm just not sure what reducing the travel on the front would achieve for you. The AC is not massively tall at the front end, especially as you're only going to be running a 140 or 150mm fork with a not very high Axle to Crown height.

    The Float performs better, is lighter and simpler so less to go wrong and it's quite a bit cheaper.

    DT forks are basically Pace forks of old. I've had them before and broken them before but that was five years ago so maybe they've got better??

    A Fox Float 32 15QR in either 140mmm or 150mm would be my first choice. After that I'd consider the RS Revelation. I've had an original pair of Revelations and they were excellent, but I'm not sure what they've done with the model lately as they may have made it ligfhter?

    The other option would be a Fox Float 36, which you then shim down to 140mm. This would be 300g heavier than a 32 Float but would give you lots of options for the future and be a damn fine fork, with lots of front end stiffness to complement the stiffness and integrity of the AC.

    Your other option is to go second hand.

    As it happens I have a pair of Pike 454s, the ones with the allow steerer, that have just been Push tuned and serviced at TF in the UK. All seals were replaced, upgrades made to the damping cartridge and replacements made to the parts known to go wrong. They are air sprung and in pristine condition. I have all the paper work from TF to prove it.

    Would be happy to take 250 for them + P&P. If you're interested send me a PM.

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    Thanks geetee - that is REALLY useful.

    I'll ask for a price on the Float and the Revelation.

    Thanks for the offer on the Pikes. I was looking to go for 150 though, because someone on the German forum was adamant that AC is a 150 bike and seemed to make a good case. I think I read a tech document from K. Nicolai himself hinting at the same.

  31. #31
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    You could also order a set of Bos Devilles set at 140mm,these are the perfect axle to crown height for the AC.
    They are 750 at the moment,and are very light,34mm stanchions.20mm only

  32. #32
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    Bos in Mexico soon

    You could order one in mexico through Crossmountain, they are getting them in march!

    They also have in stock the Magura Thor 140 2011

  33. #33
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    Max AC-height for AC is 530mm, based on tech sheets now available in N webpages. So you`ll be safe with warranty issues etc if choosing fork meeting that recommendation.

    There`re quite many good candidates in this category. Foxes are nice, but rarely without tuning - stock forks lacks oil and quite often they need a lot of use before breaking. Still good option. RockShox seems to be in same level - don`t have experience by myself.
    DT Swiss EXM / EXC 150 are good ones, Ive had 2009 model of EXC150 (internals were still based on Pace RC41 Fighter- ages...) and still have 2010 model of EXM150 (with totally different DT-based internals) - I`ll know few cases too when there`ve been problems with newer EXM`s, but mine has worked w/o any problems).
    Bos Deville would be nice, thinking to order one for myself too...but 160mm, not the shorthened one ...

    Ive tested now 5 forks in my AC and Im convinced that AC works far better with slacker head angle. Just now there`s 160mm Fox VAN36 RC2 with 545mm AC in front and with ~35% sag it feels just right (I`ve the oldest A-type links too and I use my 200*57mm shock in top hole...) - measured sagged head angle is 66,7 degs. Will not change any more to shorter fork.

  34. #34
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    Agreed with Pergamonx.

    I use my forks with 30% sag and the Pike at 140mm always felt a hair short at 520mm A2C.

    The Rev 150mm feels better at 527mm A2C. It would not surprise me if a longer fork would feel even better even though it wold need travel adjustment for other than descending.

    I think a fork like a 36/55/Lyrik at 160mm would be really nice always that you use a deep cup headset and keep within the intended use of the AC. The fact it can take a 160mm fork it does't make it a sustitute of the AM.

    Good to know BOS can be got in Mexico... but I wont be in the market for a fork until my Revelation dies in a couple years. I wish I had that option before.
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  35. #35
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    Fox float 150 or RS rev dusk air team 150.

    The RS is absolutely brilliant once dialed in but the fox is better finished.

    Let's be honest, who's that good to need the difference ? The difference is negligible....

    Merlin have stunning deals on RS at the moment... go get them..

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    Prefer the feel of the Deville over the Revelations,they run a bit higher in the travel and feel more lively,seem to handle big impacts better aswell

  37. #37
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    Basically screw buying a fork in Switzerland and get a buddy to send you one from UK or Germany... Those prices you are getting reamed more so than in New Zealand, and thats saying something....

    If I was on trainer wheels (26inch) I would be going for the Bos DeVille... Hard to find a s h i t review on them, have not as yet..... I have had Fox forks, as TLR mentions, finish is better than RS, but have to say am super impressed with the Lyric with the DH Motion COntrol, awesome fork...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    Personally am running a 2011 Float on my AC - just had the first rides on it this weekend. Would agree that the Float is the way to go over the TALAS - in my experience of both 32 and 36mm fox forks the float is more supple, uses it travel better and has the benefit of simplicity (although the TALAS forks I've had in the past have never developed issues). Not a rock shox fan myself - all the forks i've had have developed issues (must be my bad luck though). Running the 150mm Float version on mine with an Acros deep insert headset - not too tall at all even on the proper steep stuff.

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    Thanks everybody for the great feedback.

    I'm going to go with 2011 Float 32 150mm. I've found a decent price, if I don't take the Kashima coating, which I won't.

    I thought about getting a price on Rock Shox, but too many user reviews included comments along the lines of "love it, but it broke on my 2nd ride", or "great when it works, but piece X fell off" and I found it a bit disconcerting after a while! So Nick-O-Lai, maybe not just your bad luck.

    Reading the Fox reviews made me think about getting the Enduro Fork Seals though. I assume the 2011 forks have the same seals and there is still a good point to having these? http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id17.html

  40. #40
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    how's about a Marzocchi 44RC3 Ti or a 44 Micro Ti, pretty short A2C's AFAIK

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    OK, so I made my fork decision but didn't buy anything, so now I'm reconsidering! (This is the last part I have to pick, so maybe subconsciously I know the painful waiting will officially begin once it's done.)

    I got a little distracted by people saying the Fox forks are great, but high-maintenance. I have to admit that I am a low-maintenance kind of guy (I even started a thread in the Beginners' Corner asking for tips on how to be like that and ride a MTB too!). So I've read the BOS thread in the Nicolai forum, and the maintenance guidelines on the BOS website, and I am feeling swayed. The lower maintenance attracted my attention, then the reviews and good price (800 EUR) made it even better.

    So, then the question is Deville on AC. They have 140mm and 160mm forks on offer. I read somewhere (not on the BOS website) that the length of the 140 is 529.5mm and the 160 is 550mm. Nicolai AC specs say max fork length is 530mm.

    Pergamonx mentioned he'd prefer the 160 and to get it shortened. Newbie question here (forgive me), but can any (good) LBS do this? What are the side-effects and benefits of doing this?

    As I'd read (as previously mentioned) that 150 was the ideal setup for the AC, would the 140 still be a good choice?

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by tantrumizer; 02-09-2011 at 03:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tantrumizer
    OK, so I made my fork decision but didn't buy anything, so now I'm reconsidering! (This is the last part I have to pick, so maybe subconsciously I know the painful waiting will officially begin once it's done.)

    I got a little distracted by people saying the Fox forks are great, but high-maintenance. I have to admit that I am a low-maintenance kind of guy (I even started a thread in the Beginners' Corner asking for tips on how to be like that and ride a MTB too!). So I've read the BOS thread in the Nicolai forum, and the maintenance guidelines on the BOS website, and I am feeling swayed. The lower maintenance attracted my attention, then the reviews and good price (800 EUR) made it even better.

    So, then the question is Deville on AC. They have 140mm and 160mm forks on offer. I read somewhere (not on the BOS website) that the length of the 140 is 529.5mm and the 160 is 550mm. Nicolai AC specs say max fork length is 530mm.

    Pergamonx mentioned he'd prefer the 160 and to get it shortened. Newbie question here (forgive me), but can any (good) LBS do this? What are the side-effects of doing this?

    As I'd read (as previously mentioned) that 150 was the idea setup for the AC, would the 140 still be a good choice?

    Thanks again!
    You will have to buy either a 160 or 140mm Deville,It cannot be changed by a shop,Bos have to cut the Internals.It can be changed back to 160mm but it involves buying new parts.
    529.5mm is perfect for the AC.It has 10mm less travel than the fox,but it dosent waste travel when you are riding,Sits high and is very active.
    I have the 140mm Deville and had Revelations before,the Bos rides amazing,I am definetely faster,Gives more grip,i think due to it tracking better,due to the faster return after compression.
    There will be a self service guide coming to do the standard oil change,you will have to buy the Oil from a Bos dealer.

    Order them up,you wont be dissapointed

  44. #44
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    @derekr Well, hopefully you're just laughing at me because I've stepped into the Fox vs BOS maintenance debate.

    Thanks norcosam, that's useful.

  45. #45
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    no tantrumizer not laughing at you mate, just at another comment further up that made me laugh out loud "The RS is absolutely brilliant" after years of hearing how crap RS were from TLR's until he bought a pair
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekr
    no tantrumizer not laughing at you mate
    Ah OK. I'm a bit paranoid because I'm sure my questions come across as a mix of minute technical details and the most foolish of the Beginners' Corner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_b77
    how's about a Marzocchi 44RC3 Ti or a 44 Micro Ti, pretty short A2C's AFAIK
    I've not got around to fitting my set yet but feel great out of the box. 3 year warranty, open bath and proper seals. Good reports are all about the RC3 rather than the air sprung MicroTi and the weight penalty isn't great. Lighter then the BOS in any case.
    Simon Still
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekr
    no tantrumizer not laughing at you mate, just at another comment further up that made me laugh out loud "The RS is absolutely brilliant" after years of hearing how crap RS were from TLR's until he bought a pair
    the difference is negligible, the RS is a real faff to set up and the Fox is a better finished product...........and the new inverted FIT damper is excellent......

    i din't buy the RS, I 'inherited' them on my 140mm FS trail thrasher....

    had i a choice, i'd have still bought the Fox FIT damped 2011 masterpieces, and for an AC, I'd still buy FLOAT 150mm 32's.

    hope that clears up my 'error in judgement'.....

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolai-uk
    I've not got around to fitting my set yet but feel great out of the box. 3 year warranty, open bath and proper seals. Good reports are all about the RC3 rather than the air sprung MicroTi and the weight penalty isn't great. Lighter then the BOS in any case.
    what's the A2C of the Marz's ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tantrumizer
    ...Pergamonx mentioned he'd prefer the 160 and to get it shortened. Newbie question here (forgive me), but can any (good) LBS do this? What are the side-effects and benefits of doing this? ...
    Sorry confusing, but I meant that if Ill pick up Deville, my choise would be 160mm version. Not the shorter version.

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