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  1. #1
    "Its All Good"
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    2013 Nicolai Model Update Thus Far

    Many changes coming for the 2013 model line up......

    More will be revealed for sure....

    Seems none of us have yet seen the elusive ION 16.

    Argon AM
    Frank Schneider has proven that an Argon AM is fast, aggressive and capable of
    winning. In Master Class at Megavalanche race in AlpeD'huez he became first and
    this is something special. The Argon AM, Gates Carbondrive ready, optimized for
    150mm forks and a pleasant AllMountain geometry, leaves beside the Zero Stack
    head tube and the new 12mm Thruaxle dropout no wishes unfulfilled.
    A carefree Bike for the growing Trail Center community and epic alpine tours.


    Helius TB
    The Helius TB is the successor to the RC Helius.
    A trail bike par excellence.
    Travel 120-130mm, progressive kinematic flat steering angle, Zero Stack head tube
    are the key features of these very easy to be accelerated Trail Center-weapon.


    Helius AC 26 "2013
    We have modified the geometry of the Helius AC completely
    Optimized for 160mm trail forks, fitted with a newly designed shock rocker (150 and
    140mm) and with much DNA of the Helius AM
    An all-mountain / enduro bike for everyone who is looking for a swiss army knife
    This can be both, your Everyday funride and your enduro race bike.


    Helius AC 650b 2013

    Although currently the choice of wheels and tires is limited, we decided for this
    intermediate size between 29 and 26 inches.
    The reason? Simple ... a rather small person looks a little bit lost on a 29er. A trail
    bike with a lot of fun potential when running downhill and comfortable seated position
    uphill.


    Helius AC 29 "2013
    Also in 29er AC we have set the pen again.
    We can not and do not want to compete with the carbon sub 8kg bombers which start
    peeing themself in front of the next curbside.
    The decision to make our 29er so handy and downhill orientated as possible was just
    logical. The result is a comfortable bike you can climb easyily and beeing even faster
    down the hill.


    ION 16 2013

    The coronation of the 2013er model range
    New and advanced technologies paired with a complete new formal language.
    The Tapered Zero Stack head tube ensures a low front and maximeses the traction
    on the front wheel
    Reverb Stealth cable routing for a clean look and secured cable routing
    Redesign all bearing locations, load-optimized bearings with additional sealing
    elements maintenance-free and protected against corrosion.
    142x12 rear with mounting guides.
    160mm post mount brake mount
    Geometry adjustment by ET-K (Excentric Trail Key) :-)
    A mini DH bike with 160mm which gives you pure downhill skills, but also brings you
    comofortable up the hill.


    Furthermore, the Helius AM (2013 Tapered ahead) initially remains in the program, at
    least until the customers accept the Helius AC (160mm) or Ion 16 just as worthy
    successor.

    The geometries of the Helius AC 2012 and RC 2012 are no longer available from
    04.09.2012
    All 2013 models include optional:
    - Reverb Stealth
    - ZS44/56 Zero Stack head tube as standard[/QUOTE]
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  2. #2
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    so what is the "reverb stealth" option that you have listed for 2013 models?

    Edit: oops, i guess it helps to read thoroughly:

    "Reverb Stealth cable routing for a clean look and secured cable routing"
    Last edited by ledude; 08-22-2012 at 02:45 PM.

  3. #3
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    Wow,theres some good stuff going on there.

    AC 650b ...... Trail shredder

  4. #4
    "Its All Good"
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    Yep, catering for all now:

    - 26 inch kiddie wheels
    - 650b teenager wheels
    - 29 inch adults wheels



    Only joking all....

    The line up looks killer, I have a sneaking thought that the AM, AFR, FR will be no longer... Being all made to order, can probly get one made, but seems they will be out the door.... Helius AC will be the new AM (160mm fork acceptable)

    ION 16 will be the new AM
    ION 18 carries on being the AFR slot
    ION 20, fast as DH beast

    Exciting times....

    Am dreaming already of an ION 16 Pinion 29er!
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  5. #5
    yet another stupid german
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    very exciting for sure!

    I was in the planning stage for an AM and now I have to decide anew... the DHer in me wants an Ion16, the 48 year old says, naaaaa, the new AC is the way to go. Decisions, decisions

  6. #6
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    Raschaa this is exactly the position I was in two months ago. I started by asking if they could build a special version of the AC, with 160mm maximum travel, rather than the AM's 171mm and capable of taking a 545mm fork (160mm) but weighing between the AM and the AC.

    The feedback was that they could do this possibly using the stays of the AM on an AC chassis that they would subsequently have to beef up to take the longer fork. In the end I wasn't going to make it any lighter than an AM, at least not enough to worry about.

    The factory were also kind enough to let me know what was coming in the pipeline. I think it was really good of them to do this and I've been biting my hand not to say anything because they asked me not to! It remains to be seen, but the direct question I asked was 'how much is the Ion 16 going to weigh'. They were really reticent about answering this question but they did in the end give me a target weight they had in mind and were working to engineer.

    On the basis that I didn't want my new bike to weigh anything more than 100g more than the outgoing one, and given that I was speccing a through axle and larger head tube, I decided against the Ion 16. I think (please note this is me guessing) that it will be a few hundred grams heavier than the AM. We also know it's going to be fixed at 160mm travel so maybe it will end up being lighter.

    I also think the AM will eventually be dropped and I like the geometry changes they've made to the AC - almost identical to what I've asked for - but I wonder if the AC will ride as capably as the AM and if the Ion 16 will end up being a bit more limited in what it can do. We shall have to wait and see

    Meanwhile I've opted for a tailored AM. I've had mine now for three years and have made geometry changes to it with the help of different shock shuttles so I felt well placed to decide what I actually wanted.
    Last edited by geetee1972; 08-23-2012 at 01:27 AM.

  7. #7
    yet another stupid german
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    some geos for y'all ^^








  8. #8
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Sweeeet stuff.... temptation go away... :-P

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    Thanks for the info.

    Wonder why the 650b AC has a 215x63 shock ?and the 26" and 29" are 200x57mm

    650b must be for real riders.
    Last edited by norcosam; 08-23-2012 at 10:59 AM.

  10. #10
    steep fast and loose :)
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    leverage ratios / charts yet available.......................?

  11. #11
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    All in good time, am sure more will be revealed... No sign of an ION16 29er.... Could be a go now that there is a 150mm Fox 34....

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lecht_Rocks View Post
    leverage ratios / charts yet available.......................?
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  12. #12
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    If the bike isn't going to be available for order until next year it may be that those details are yet to be finalised.

  13. #13
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    Diagrams above all look like Ion's not Helius's... is it the diagram that's wrong or has the Helius had a huge redesign?

    Pictures required

  14. #14
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    I'm almost certain this is similar to the way that Nicolai's website uses the Helius AM as the image on all tech sheets currently.

    We've seen an image of the new Helius AC with a redesigned swing link that still drops from the TT so we know that the Helius range will continue to use that kind of suspension lay out.

    The Ion range uses a layout that reverses the swing link.

    I think that's more than just packaging to be honest. I wonder if that layout makes it easier to make the kinematics initially regressive (supple), then linear, then progressive, which is how my original Ion rode.

    I might be over reaching on my knowledge and understanding here.

  15. #15
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    They're keeping the ION geometry under wraps until Eurobike - no tech sheet yet or other info beyond what you've seen.

    Diagram on the tech sheet is just to give a graphical reference to the dimensions quoted. As GeeTee says, old tech sheets used the AM and before that I think the CC.
    Simon Still
    Momentum Distribution
    www.nicolai-uk.com

  16. #16
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    at was my first thought simon but i see the shock hardware is 22mm both ends which suggests thats either a cut and paste from the ion18 drawing as well or the linkages have changed significantly
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

    flash bikes for flash gits

  17. #17
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    First release tech sheets often contain mistakes......
    Simon Still
    Momentum Distribution
    www.nicolai-uk.com

  18. #18
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    I've asked a few times about the Fox 34 150mm Whafe, always to denials. Maybe Eurobike. Although I don't know whether I would change for the extra 10mm unless the A2C increased to make mine slacker still ;-)
    I'm still sore they wouldn't build the ZS headtube, 142 dropouts and Ion style BB for my Am29 but also heartened that they listened to us. Not that it would make any difference to how it rides. Which is still awesome.

  19. #19
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    Ha. Used the bro in laws iPad for the last post. It was me!
    Aka chainline...

  20. #20
    "Its All Good"
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    Agree, hard to get an answer out of Fox, but was over looking at the Niner thread on WFO's, and there is a picture of one with a 150mm Fox 34.... Also have heard from a very reliable source here in NZ that we ride with, that it can be done, with very little changes... It is also shownin some of the Specipoo 2013 brochure that there will be a 150mm fork on a 29er

    Stoked to hear you are still loving your's.... Mine is getting some final tweaks before I head to Whistler on 5th September. New EVEN wheel built, CCDB Air fully sorted, Dorado full break down and service, new 35 mm Easton bars & Stem, new Saddle.... Yeah ha...


    Quote Originally Posted by Noskills View Post
    I've asked a few times about the Fox 34 150mm Whafe, always to denials. Maybe Eurobike. Although I don't know whether I would change for the extra 10mm unless the A2C increased to make mine slacker still ;-)
    I'm still sore they wouldn't build the ZS headtube, 142 dropouts and Ion style BB for my Am29 but also heartened that they listened to us. Not that it would make any difference to how it rides. Which is still awesome.
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

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    You're right whafe it can be done easily. One guy who has done it says it's fine after a fair bit of use. Fox however say all the dampers and airsleevea are size specific in terms of maximum length. Shorter ok. Longer may irreparably damage the damper and air spring.

    Even though it's easy, I'm not prepared to take the risk with a £900 fork!!

    New damper from cr conception could do the trick. Dunno about the air spring? I might check out what a new air spring costs.

    On a side note. My stantion is 150mm long and I have bottomed it (accidentally) so its kinda 150mm ;-)
    Aka chainline...

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    Whafe, you forget in your list my Helius AC Pinion 650B with 152mm rear travel 66.5į head angle with a 150mm fork

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyril_88 View Post
    Whafe, you forget in your list my Helius AC Pinion 650B with 152mm rear travel 66.5į head angle with a 150mm fork

    Have you ridden this,Or is on there build list??
    When will itbe delivered?

  24. #24
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    I wait for him in few days or week, so it's a tailor

  25. #25
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    They are teenage wheels tho innit :-) only a little bit bigger than 26" ;-)
    Aka chainline...

  26. #26
    steep fast and loose :)
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    I like my 120mm AC 29er... What happens next then ? The AC 29er goes 140mm which I do not want....?

    Do I then go 650b ?

  27. #27
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    Keep the one you like and don't buy the one you don't? Just a suggestion!
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

    flash bikes for flash gits

  28. #28
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    If you want another. Have a custom one. Mine is designed to run either 120 or 140 and be correct geometry. 140 is just slacker.
    Aka chainline...

  29. #29
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    Or what he said. That makes the most sense!!
    Aka chainline...

  30. #30
    "Its All Good"
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    Everything is pretty much custom anyways, so order up what you want... That is pretty much what we all do anyways....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  31. #31
    "El Whatever"
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    Shait... I need a 2013 Helius AC... badly!!

    All the little niggles I had with my 2010 are solved now.
    Check my Site

  32. #32
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    I've killed another hardcore long travel hardtail... perhaps an Argon FR would be up to the job?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepimpmessiah View Post
    I've killed another hardcore long travel hardtail... perhaps an Argon FR would be up to the job?
    What you destroyed now??

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam View Post
    What you destroyed now??
    Found a large crack on the top tube of my Ragley Troof. Such a shame as its a lovely bike... now to see how CRC and Ragley deal with Warranty as its only six months old.

    Argon FR with the Troof angles... Hmmm.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepimpmessiah View Post
    Found a large crack on the top tube of my Ragley Troof. Such a shame as its a lovely bike... now to see how CRC and Ragley deal with Warranty as its only six months old.

    Argon FR with the Troof angles... Hmmm.
    Dude, hoping it gets sorted no worries.... Is the Geo on the Argon the go for ultra modern day HT rippers with decent travel forks?
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe View Post
    Dude, hoping it gets sorted no worries.... Is the Geo on the Argon the go for ultra modern day HT rippers with decent travel forks?
    Whafe... I'm not sure... last time I looked at the Argon FR I though the geometry was a bit dated for FR/AM (the way I see it anyway)... but then I read about Frank at the Mega and noticed the following which had me interested again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe View Post
    Argon AM
    Frank Schneider has proven that an Argon AM is fast, aggressive and capable of
    winning. In Master Class at Megavalanche race in AlpeD'huez he became first and
    this is something special. The Argon AM, Gates Carbondrive ready, optimized for
    150mm forks and a pleasant AllMountain geometry, leaves beside the Zero Stack
    head tube and the new 12mm Thruaxle dropout no wishes unfulfilled.
    A carefree Bike for the growing Trail Center community and epic alpine tours.
    But the above states 150mm forks whereas Frank seemed to be using 160mm at the Mega (I think Suntour Durolux are 160/180 but I could be wrong)?

    I'd rather have a heavier 160 fork up front than a flexy 150mm fork... and perhaps the angles I am after are actually more DH than AM... the Troof has a 63deg head angle and a low bottom bracket with a steep seattube when running 160mm forks.

    I really liked my Troof and I hope it gets replaced... if not it's going to be a pain to get anything similar (especially with the 1.5" headtube and 31.6mm seatpost so I can swap forks and droppers etc with my Helius AM).

    Looking forward to more info on the Argon AM though

  37. #37
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    hey all, it's been a while since I last posted on here. Long time no see

    It's nice to see some confirmed specs for the AC 29er. Mine is due in October (I'll believe that when I see it), and I'm really keen to see what happens with the 150mm 34's. I'm keeping my trusty old FR but I have high hopes for the 29er......Dippers demo bike proved just how capable a well sorted long travel 29er can be. I think stoked is the word I'm looking for ......

  38. #38
    steep fast and loose :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetiman71 View Post
    hey all, it's been a while since I last posted on here. Long time no see

    It's nice to see some confirmed specs for the AC 29er. Mine is due in October (I'll believe that when I see it), and I'm really keen to see what happens with the 150mm 34's. I'm keeping my trusty old FR but I have high hopes for the 29er......Dippers demo bike proved just how capable a well sorted long travel 29er can be. I think stoked is the word I'm looking for ......
    nice bike selection Paul !

    dipper reckons his comes in at 30lb with the 34's........

    i'm still loving my "standard" AC 29er. although I want to try a 34 on it to satisfy my curiosity....

  39. #39
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    Pleasing a couple of "NicoLeaks" () pics (guess from the latest information for traders & distributors last week)?


    NICOLAI Argon AM PINION (26er), GATES Carbon Drive (GCD), model year 2013
    Bright White & Golden anodized, I guess a very appealing finish for the young, sporty Arab sheikh who rocks the desert


    NICOLAI Helius TB (26er), model year 2013


    NICOLAI Helius AC (26er), model year 2013


    NICOLAI Helius AC (650B), model year 2013


    NICOLAI Helius AC (29er), model year 2013


    NICOLAI Ion 16 (26er), model year 2013


  40. #40
    steep fast and loose :)
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    interesting tpo see the linkage arm bends into the shock mount rather than outside - dipper - was that your idea ?

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    Simon at Momentum made an interesting observation to me on this point TLR. He said that the design allowed a narrower mounting kit which removed the need to use a steel pin with 'top hats' thereby saving weight. Maybe not more than 50g but 50g here and 50g there adds up.

    I'll be interested to see if the Ion16 carries through it's gussetless design to production. Aesthetically, I prefer the AM gussets but the fact that the 16 maxes out at 160mm (whereas the AM goes up to 170mm) means that you should be able to fabricate a lighter construction of the Ion.

    The figure of 3.3kg that's been discussed still makes it heavier if that figure doesn't include shock and about the same or a bit lighter if it does. It will be interesting.

  42. #42
    "Its All Good"
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    Am taking it all in re the ION 16.....

    Can't wait to learn and see more of this frame....Very very interesting....
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lecht_Rocks View Post
    nice bike selection Paul !

    dipper reckons his comes in at 30lb with the 34's........

    i'm still loving my "standard" AC 29er. although I want to try a 34 on it to satisfy my curiosity....
    Week 46 is the latest delivery estimation from Nicolai. That's a few weeks later than planned but will ensure I get the 2013 specs. I'm aiming for somewhere between 30 & 32lbs depending on the final build.

  44. #44
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    That ION 16 looks awesome.
    Nicolai Helius AFR frame size L for sale.

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    Helius AC (650B) at Eurobike 2012 (courtesy DRAILLE Bike LoÔs, Colombe, Rhone-Alpes (FR), DrailleBike.com at FaceBook.com)


  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm6 View Post
    Helius AC (650B) at Eurobike 2012 (courtesy DRAILLE Bike LoÔs, Colombe, Rhone-Alpes (FR)
    I can't decide if 26 or 650B for my next Helius AC... it may not be now, but sure it's at the top to replace my current AC.
    Check my Site

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    I can't decide if 26 or 650B for my next Helius AC... it may not be now, but sure it's at the top to replace my current AC.
    I think 650b is the way forward.

    i am struggling to find and drawbacks with this wheel size

  48. #48
    yet another stupid german
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    ok, it's in german but the pics say it all...

    <iframe src="http://videos.mtb-news.de/embed/player/23275" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://videos.mtb-news.de/videos/view/23275" target="_blank">Eurobike 2012 - Nicolai Ion 16, Helius-Serie und Argon AM</a> von <a href="http://videos.mtb-news.de/user/view/1173" target="_blank">Tobias</a> - mehr <a href="http://videos.mtb-news.de/" target="_blank">Mountainbike-Videos</a></p>

    HD-Version
    Full HD-Version

    OH, one thing I will translate: Ion 16 frame weighs 240g LESS than Helius AM

  49. #49
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam View Post
    I think 650b is the way forward.

    i am struggling to find and drawbacks with this wheel size
    The current drawbacks are availability related, really. If anything, we could say it's too similar to 26", but that is hardly a drawback.

    I'll squeeze a year or two more on my 2010 Helius AC and move over to the current AC in 650b when the time comes.

    I was a little upset at first, seeing how quickly my AC was superseded by the new and better AC... but that's the way of progress. Except for a more friendly bearing design, Nicolai addressed all what people wanted with the new AC. All new standards are covered also.

    All in all, another bike that makes me drool and look forward to have. Nothing wrong with my current AC, but now I'm limited if I want a new fork. I wanted a 34 fork, but Fox only makes them in tapered for example which is a no go for my AC, for example.
    Check my Site

  50. #50
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    Drawbacks with 650b for me are it is still alot smaller than a 29 with a big tyre and the rolling and grip difference is very noticable.for a given travel. Obviously you can go bigger travel, but that has weight and pedalling impact.

    For me the 29 allowed me to create a better pedalling, longer legged bike but with all the descending attributes of a longer travel bike for Enduro racing.
    Aka chainline...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Drawbacks with 650b for me are it is still alot smaller than a 29 with a big tyre and the rolling and grip difference is very noticable.for a given travel. Obviously you can go bigger travel, but that has weight and pedalling impact.

    For me the 29 allowed me to create a better pedalling, longer legged bike but with all the descending attributes of a longer travel bike for Enduro racing.
    Have you ridden a 650b bike??

  52. #52
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    Sam, only one 'official' 650b and no full sussers. But you don't need a full suss to understand the impact, in fact It's detrimental, the suspension adding variables.but I have ridden 26" bikes with a selection of very big to huge tyres that are the equivalent in terms of diameter of 27.5" wiith small tyres up to 27.5 with a 2.4 and bigger still when I was running 3.8's and Fat Larry's on 100mm wide rims. lots of time on 35mm salsa and 40+mm Holm rims with 2.5+ tyres.

    I think perhaps as 27.5 tyres develop, as happened with 29, things will change. Up to a 160mm 26" equivalent I think the wheel benefits outweigh the geometry compromises with 29 vs 26"

    At, say 180mm, if that's the goal, well I can see the benefits of 27.5. 29 is compromised
    at that travel based on my experience. I can't
    Imagine going bigger than my 150mm rear travel 29 with good head angles
    Without it becoming too long.
    All in my experience of course. Other opinions are available.
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  53. #53
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    Sam is just making incremental steps to Adult Wheels, he has moved on from Kiddie wheels to Teenager Wheels, Adult wheels will come....


    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Sam, only one 'official' 650b and no full sussers. But you don't need a full suss to understand the impact, in fact It's detrimental, the suspension adding variables.but I have ridden 26" bikes with a selection of very big to huge tyres that are the equivalent in terms of diameter of 27.5" wiith small tyres up to 27.5 with a 2.4 and bigger still when I was running 3.8's and Fat Larry's on 100mm wide rims. lots of time on 35mm salsa and 40+mm Holm rims with 2.5+ tyres.

    I think perhaps as 27.5 tyres develop, as happened with 29, things will change. Up to a 160mm 26" equivalent I think the wheel benefits outweigh the geometry compromises with 29 vs 26"

    At, say 180mm, if that's the goal, well I can see the benefits of 27.5. 29 is compromised
    at that travel based on my experience. I can't
    Imagine going bigger than my 150mm rear travel 29 with good head angles
    Without it becoming too long.
    All in my experience of course. Other opinions are available.
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  54. #54
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    I too am slow to see the real benefits of the 650b size.... I can't help but feel it is a size platform push from more so manufacturers than riders... It makes sense for them to have one size pretty much... As always, I could always be totally wrong...

    My main reason is that I can't see much real difference in size from 26 to 27.5.... I also add to it how slow media publications were to be positive about 29ers... But boom, over night many media publications are saying that 27.5 is the ducks nutz... I am dubious...

    I am not trying to troll either, just my mere thoughts....

    I will stick to my long travel Monster Truck...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe View Post
    Sam is just making incremental steps to Adult Wheels, he has moved on from Kiddie wheels to Teenager Wheels, Adult wheels will come....
    Seems to be a lot of 650b stuff being released,Fox and Rockshox and i noticed that the one on the Nicolai stand at Eurobike had Suntour on it.
    Tyres are starting to come through,seems like all are commiting to 650b

    Been using a 29er Hardtail for the last week,it definetly feels like it rolls easier,but seems to feel numb and less playfull than a 26" bike,not sure if its the geometry of it or the wheels.

    I also find that my 26" wheels accelerate a lot faster,29" tyres seem to take longer to get up to speed,and seem to make it not want to change direction as quickly at speed.i am also wondering if its to do with the tyres being further away from the axle so acts as a higher rotational weight.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam View Post
    i am also wondering if its to do with the tyres being further away from the axle so acts as a higher rotational weight.
    It's called "inertia". The same mass farther away from the Center of Gravity or axis of rotation produces more inertia. No way around it.

    It's a two edges sword... it ain't that simple but it makes it harder to accelerate and harder to change direction, but they also keep momentum better thanks to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe View Post
    I too am slow to see the real benefits of the 650b size.... I can't help but feel it is a size platform push from more so manufacturers than riders... It makes sense for them to have one size pretty much... As always, I could always be totally wrong...

    My main reason is that I can't see much real difference in size from 26 to 27.5.... I also add to it how slow media publications were to be positive about 29ers... But boom, over night many media publications are saying that 27.5 is the ducks nutz... I am dubious...

    I am not trying to troll either, just my mere thoughts....

    I will stick to my long travel Monster Truck...
    Solid points, Whafe... I think just about the same, but once the "new" size is here and manufacturers jumping on it, why not trying it or using it? To me, at my 5'9", it makes more sense than going to 29" wheels.

    One point that has struck me really odd regarding 650B... Supposedly, it's aimed to use longer travel bikes with bigger wheels, right?

    Then why I have not seen any bike over 160mm with 650b wheels??
    Intense at least tried with the 2951. I have not seen anyone trying with the 650b on long travel. Weird.
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  57. #57
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    wheels, wheels, wheels. Absolutely key to a good 29er. Also geometry is key. If anything my 29 is more playful and easier to manual and jump than my AM, maybe cofg plays a part here, having a greater BB drop. Acceleration is not something that bothers me much as the time lost there is made up for in not having to slow down for obstacles in the same way and in cornering grip, though ultimately the same contact patch is there for a given pressure, you do have a longer contact strip wih 29, which puts more cornering knobs in the ground.

    Maybe I am spoilt, like Whafe in running Carbon Enve wheels which are both silly light and stiff. Our 29er rims weigh about the same as a 26" arch and quite a bit less than a 26" Flow, they are also very stiff which helps inchanging direction.
    They do require more effort to change direction, a function of slack angles and length, but that is just an adjustment, I run a wide bar and short stem to aassist with that but again, for me, not everyone, that is compensated for with the stability and ability to carry speed and carve turns very quickly.

    What hardtail have you been riding Sam, what geo?
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    wheels, wheels, wheels. Absolutely key to a good 29er. Also geometry is key. If anything my 29 is more playful and easier to manual and jump than my AM, maybe cofg plays a part here, having a greater BB drop. Acceleration is not something that bothers me much as the time lost there is made up for in not having to slow down for obstacles in the same way and in cornering grip, though ultimately the same contact patch is there for a given pressure, you do have a longer contact strip wih 29, which puts more cornering knobs in the ground.

    Maybe I am spoilt, like Whafe in running Carbon Enve wheels which are both silly light and stiff. Our 29er rims weigh about the same as a 26" arch and quite a bit less than a 26" Flow, they are also very stiff which helps inchanging direction.
    They do require more effort to change direction, a function of slack angles and length, but that is just an adjustment, I run a wide bar and short stem to aassist with that but again, for me, not everyone, that is compensated for with the stability and ability to carry speed and carve turns very quickly.

    What hardtail have you been riding Sam, what geo?
    Its a Trek X-Caliber,nothing special but is a reasonable bike.

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    On that bike Sam its the wheels not the geometry. God fork offset, not too steep, numbers look pretty good but you have to compromise somewhere and people value drivetrain over wheels unfortunately for sale purposes.

    The SSR wheel set is about 2.3kg, with 1.8kg in spokes and rim. relatively speaking my rims/spokes are 1.2kg, probably a punt and a half in each wheel in the wrong place.

    It does make much more difference on a 29 than 26, the stiffness too. Mavic did a lot of testing of their new wheel set and concluded they needed 40% stiffer wheel in their SLR to make it the same as their 26" wheel
    Aka chainline...

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    On that bike Sam its the wheels not the geometry. God fork offset, not too steep, numbers look pretty good but you have to compromise somewhere and people value drivetrain over wheels unfortunately for sale purposes.

    The SSR wheel set is about 2.3kg, with 1.8kg in spokes and rim. relatively speaking my rims/spokes are 1.2kg, probably a punt and a half in each wheel in the wrong place.

    It does make much more difference on a 29 than 26, the stiffness too. Mavic did a lot of testing of their new wheel set and concluded they needed 40% stiffer wheel in their SLR to make it the same as their 26" wheel
    I know the wheels are heavy part of that bike,thinking of buying the bike to be honest.
    I can get one at a good price as i work in a bike shop
    1st thing i would change would be the wheels,they are ok as a spare/Oe fit/winter set.
    Rest of the bike seems to be ok,Wheels are tubeless ready aswell on them.

  61. #61
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    Bike is good even at retail.
    Aka chainline...

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Bike is good even at retail.
    We have a brand new 2013 in the shop,has the Black and red scheme on it,looks very nice,Has anodised red hubs and a few odd other parts in red,Trying to find out what i can do with the forks,not quite up to the Devilles but think a bit of playing with or a new damper may sort it.I want a 2nd bike,but dont want anything to fancy,just something to ride my local smooth trails when the weather is bad.

    Seems to ride ok,the forks with the weird offset are a bit of a nightmare if i ever want to upgrade.

  63. #63
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    without doubt, wheels make the difference.

    i run 29" arch EX with 2.25" Nobby Nic's. The cornering grip is massively improved compared to the same 26" tyre.

    unfortunately though, as i wanted light wheels for my AC there is noticeable from the rear when really driving through turns / berms, but not so much as to need to "upgrade" rims.

    i do like the new crossmax sx wheelset however - they are light and stiff.

    the momentum and extra grip from 29" rules out 650B for me TBH, i see no point in a half way house when 29" gives what I'm after perfectly...........

  64. #64
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    Hello all.

    Many of you guys seems to have a lot of experience with Nicolai.
    I am waiting for my first Nicolai, which is a tailored 650b AM.

    Donít want to go into the discussion about benefits or not regarding 650b, just want to say that I have been riding this for 3 years on a SP pitch, and I am really glad to see beefier tires comes alongÖ.

    I havenít been discussing the geometry of my frame with any other than Marcel at Nicolai. At that moment I was told that they tested the AC 650b and that they were happy with the results. I believe that some of their experience with the AC 650b went in to my frame, as we discussed the BB hight and head angle thoroughly.
    We went 5mm higher on the BB, than the 650B AC, to match my 180mm crank arms, and the head angle will be +/- 1,5 degree with CC angleset.

    The travel settings will be:
    1. position: 175mm (only with 26 inch wheel)
    2. position: 164mm
    3. position: 150mm
    4. position: 139mm

    I havenít decided on fork and shock yet, but I hope to find one 20mm axle that does the job, on my list are: Deville 160mm TRC, Vengeance HLR and Suntour Durolux RC and for the rear: VipR, RS monarch plus RC3, Vector HLR Air and Durolux RCA

    I have tested the Deville with my 650 x 2.35 Nevegal on Velocity P35, (have pictures) and it clears good both arc and crown when fully compressed, the other two forks will clear as well.
    I am 82kg, and my riding will be 95% rough trails and 5% lift assisted DH. (I might want to have a cheap coil shock and a 180mm fork for the DH riding, When changing the head angle I have to remove the fork anyways. Head angle for DH riding with 650b front and 26 inch rear, will be around 63,5 - 64 degrees)

    Any thought on what to choose based on experience with the Helius linkage ??

    BR. Martin
    Last edited by gulprincipia; 09-01-2012 at 06:37 AM. Reason: more info

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    Here is my geometry for an AC Pinion 650b with 152mm of rear travel and revelation 2013 150mm 650b.



    For your shock i think a monarch plus is a good choice with setting M/M or M compresion and faster rebound than M in rought terrain you need more rebound to have more reactivity.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by gulprincipia View Post
    Any thought on what to choose based on experience with the Helius linkage ??

    BR. Martin
    Something with a decent mid-stroke or an adjustable one.

    IMO and it comes from the Helius AC 2010 is that they don't like shocks that blow through the midstroke.

    An air shock with a mid to small air chamber or a coil with piggyback are better suited. The mid-stroke (at least on my bike) is rather soft so it will use a lot of travel if the shock don't help it to ride high into travel.

    I have a high regard for the X-Fusion Vector HLR Air I run, but I have not ridden a CCDB or a Vip'r or any of those Gucci shocks.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyril_88 View Post
    Here is my geometry for an AC Pinion 650b with 152mm of rear travel and revelation 2013 150mm 650b.



    For your shock i think a monarch plus is a good choice with setting M/M or M compresion and faster rebound than M in rought terrain you need more rebound to have more reactivity.
    That looks very good Cyril.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyril_88 View Post
    For your shock i think a monarch plus is a good choice with setting M/M or M compresion and faster rebound than M in rought terrain you need more rebound to have more reactivity.
    Thanks Warp and Cyril,

    I also had the impression, from previous threads, that the AC and AM needs a firm midstroke shock.

    Nicolai told me that they supply the AM with Monarch Plus, Medium rebound/ Low compression. Do you belive this is a kind of "mainstream" setup, which might be to soft when it comes to more aggressive riders?

    The Monarch Plus RC3 has 3 compression settings, I donít know if this is Highspeed/lowspeed or both, but if this compression levels are able to give a firm midstroke, maybe a RC3 with the recommended tune for Nicolai is a good match?

    I have been looking for a Vector HLR Air, but they seems impossible to find these days.

    Nice frame Cyril, which shock/tune goes for that....

  69. #69
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    Oh man... The ion looks awesome... I still have to process my RAW files, but I will post ASAP....

  70. #70
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    The Old AC,the same as i have,Nicolai told me Medium/Medium tune.

    I am a reasonable weight.lol

  71. #71
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    I enquired from Nicolai details for the new ARGON AM and got sent the following link from Vincent...

    ARGON AM

    160mm forks, 65 deg head angle, low bottom bracket, and a long top tube

    Looks like a suitable replacement for the last hardtail I broke... but the fly in the oitment is my current thoughts of scratching the itch of 29 or 650b???

    Tough decision
    Last edited by thepimpmessiah; 11-08-2012 at 12:41 AM.

  72. #72
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    oohh! custom argon fr 29er with 140 float?
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

    flash bikes for flash gits

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipper View Post
    oohh! custom argon fr 29er with 140 float?
    I said "scratch an itch"... not launch thermo-nuclear-weapons at it

  74. #74
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    if a jobs worth doing, its worth doing to excess
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  75. #75
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    whyexfiles.dbap.de/Public/NICOLAI/Poster-2013/N-Poster-2013-Rueck-PRINT.pdf

    Found this on the while googling if ION 16 can fit 180mm fork.

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