Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 51 to 75 of 75
  1. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,952
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Drawbacks with 650b for me are it is still alot smaller than a 29 with a big tyre and the rolling and grip difference is very noticable.for a given travel. Obviously you can go bigger travel, but that has weight and pedalling impact.

    For me the 29 allowed me to create a better pedalling, longer legged bike but with all the descending attributes of a longer travel bike for Enduro racing.
    Have you ridden a 650b bike??

  2. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    797
    Sam, only one 'official' 650b and no full sussers. But you don't need a full suss to understand the impact, in fact It's detrimental, the suspension adding variables.but I have ridden 26" bikes with a selection of very big to huge tyres that are the equivalent in terms of diameter of 27.5" wiith small tyres up to 27.5 with a 2.4 and bigger still when I was running 3.8's and Fat Larry's on 100mm wide rims. lots of time on 35mm salsa and 40+mm Holm rims with 2.5+ tyres.

    I think perhaps as 27.5 tyres develop, as happened with 29, things will change. Up to a 160mm 26" equivalent I think the wheel benefits outweigh the geometry compromises with 29 vs 26"

    At, say 180mm, if that's the goal, well I can see the benefits of 27.5. 29 is compromised
    at that travel based on my experience. I can't
    Imagine going bigger than my 150mm rear travel 29 with good head angles
    Without it becoming too long.
    All in my experience of course. Other opinions are available.
    Aka chainline...

  3. #53
    "Its All Good"
    Reputation: Whafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    10,690
    Sam is just making incremental steps to Adult Wheels, he has moved on from Kiddie wheels to Teenager Wheels, Adult wheels will come....


    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Sam, only one 'official' 650b and no full sussers. But you don't need a full suss to understand the impact, in fact It's detrimental, the suspension adding variables.but I have ridden 26" bikes with a selection of very big to huge tyres that are the equivalent in terms of diameter of 27.5" wiith small tyres up to 27.5 with a 2.4 and bigger still when I was running 3.8's and Fat Larry's on 100mm wide rims. lots of time on 35mm salsa and 40+mm Holm rims with 2.5+ tyres.

    I think perhaps as 27.5 tyres develop, as happened with 29, things will change. Up to a 160mm 26" equivalent I think the wheel benefits outweigh the geometry compromises with 29 vs 26"

    At, say 180mm, if that's the goal, well I can see the benefits of 27.5. 29 is compromised
    at that travel based on my experience. I can't
    Imagine going bigger than my 150mm rear travel 29 with good head angles
    Without it becoming too long.
    All in my experience of course. Other opinions are available.
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  4. #54
    "Its All Good"
    Reputation: Whafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    10,690
    I too am slow to see the real benefits of the 650b size.... I can't help but feel it is a size platform push from more so manufacturers than riders... It makes sense for them to have one size pretty much... As always, I could always be totally wrong...

    My main reason is that I can't see much real difference in size from 26 to 27.5.... I also add to it how slow media publications were to be positive about 29ers... But boom, over night many media publications are saying that 27.5 is the ducks nutz... I am dubious...

    I am not trying to troll either, just my mere thoughts....

    I will stick to my long travel Monster Truck...
    The_Lecht_Rocks: whafe - cheeers - may i offer an official apology for the wagon wheeler "dis-belief"

  5. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,952
    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe View Post
    Sam is just making incremental steps to Adult Wheels, he has moved on from Kiddie wheels to Teenager Wheels, Adult wheels will come....
    Seems to be a lot of 650b stuff being released,Fox and Rockshox and i noticed that the one on the Nicolai stand at Eurobike had Suntour on it.
    Tyres are starting to come through,seems like all are commiting to 650b

    Been using a 29er Hardtail for the last week,it definetly feels like it rolls easier,but seems to feel numb and less playfull than a 26" bike,not sure if its the geometry of it or the wheels.

    I also find that my 26" wheels accelerate a lot faster,29" tyres seem to take longer to get up to speed,and seem to make it not want to change direction as quickly at speed.i am also wondering if its to do with the tyres being further away from the axle so acts as a higher rotational weight.

  6. #56
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,645
    Quote Originally Posted by norcosam View Post
    i am also wondering if its to do with the tyres being further away from the axle so acts as a higher rotational weight.
    It's called "inertia". The same mass farther away from the Center of Gravity or axis of rotation produces more inertia. No way around it.

    It's a two edges sword... it ain't that simple but it makes it harder to accelerate and harder to change direction, but they also keep momentum better thanks to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whafe View Post
    I too am slow to see the real benefits of the 650b size.... I can't help but feel it is a size platform push from more so manufacturers than riders... It makes sense for them to have one size pretty much... As always, I could always be totally wrong...

    My main reason is that I can't see much real difference in size from 26 to 27.5.... I also add to it how slow media publications were to be positive about 29ers... But boom, over night many media publications are saying that 27.5 is the ducks nutz... I am dubious...

    I am not trying to troll either, just my mere thoughts....

    I will stick to my long travel Monster Truck...
    Solid points, Whafe... I think just about the same, but once the "new" size is here and manufacturers jumping on it, why not trying it or using it? To me, at my 5'9", it makes more sense than going to 29" wheels.

    One point that has struck me really odd regarding 650B... Supposedly, it's aimed to use longer travel bikes with bigger wheels, right?

    Then why I have not seen any bike over 160mm with 650b wheels??
    Intense at least tried with the 2951. I have not seen anyone trying with the 650b on long travel. Weird.
    Check my Site

  7. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    797
    wheels, wheels, wheels. Absolutely key to a good 29er. Also geometry is key. If anything my 29 is more playful and easier to manual and jump than my AM, maybe cofg plays a part here, having a greater BB drop. Acceleration is not something that bothers me much as the time lost there is made up for in not having to slow down for obstacles in the same way and in cornering grip, though ultimately the same contact patch is there for a given pressure, you do have a longer contact strip wih 29, which puts more cornering knobs in the ground.

    Maybe I am spoilt, like Whafe in running Carbon Enve wheels which are both silly light and stiff. Our 29er rims weigh about the same as a 26" arch and quite a bit less than a 26" Flow, they are also very stiff which helps inchanging direction.
    They do require more effort to change direction, a function of slack angles and length, but that is just an adjustment, I run a wide bar and short stem to aassist with that but again, for me, not everyone, that is compensated for with the stability and ability to carry speed and carve turns very quickly.

    What hardtail have you been riding Sam, what geo?
    Aka chainline...

  8. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,952
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    wheels, wheels, wheels. Absolutely key to a good 29er. Also geometry is key. If anything my 29 is more playful and easier to manual and jump than my AM, maybe cofg plays a part here, having a greater BB drop. Acceleration is not something that bothers me much as the time lost there is made up for in not having to slow down for obstacles in the same way and in cornering grip, though ultimately the same contact patch is there for a given pressure, you do have a longer contact strip wih 29, which puts more cornering knobs in the ground.

    Maybe I am spoilt, like Whafe in running Carbon Enve wheels which are both silly light and stiff. Our 29er rims weigh about the same as a 26" arch and quite a bit less than a 26" Flow, they are also very stiff which helps inchanging direction.
    They do require more effort to change direction, a function of slack angles and length, but that is just an adjustment, I run a wide bar and short stem to aassist with that but again, for me, not everyone, that is compensated for with the stability and ability to carry speed and carve turns very quickly.

    What hardtail have you been riding Sam, what geo?
    Its a Trek X-Caliber,nothing special but is a reasonable bike.

  9. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    797
    On that bike Sam its the wheels not the geometry. God fork offset, not too steep, numbers look pretty good but you have to compromise somewhere and people value drivetrain over wheels unfortunately for sale purposes.

    The SSR wheel set is about 2.3kg, with 1.8kg in spokes and rim. relatively speaking my rims/spokes are 1.2kg, probably a punt and a half in each wheel in the wrong place.

    It does make much more difference on a 29 than 26, the stiffness too. Mavic did a lot of testing of their new wheel set and concluded they needed 40% stiffer wheel in their SLR to make it the same as their 26" wheel
    Aka chainline...

  10. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,952
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    On that bike Sam its the wheels not the geometry. God fork offset, not too steep, numbers look pretty good but you have to compromise somewhere and people value drivetrain over wheels unfortunately for sale purposes.

    The SSR wheel set is about 2.3kg, with 1.8kg in spokes and rim. relatively speaking my rims/spokes are 1.2kg, probably a punt and a half in each wheel in the wrong place.

    It does make much more difference on a 29 than 26, the stiffness too. Mavic did a lot of testing of their new wheel set and concluded they needed 40% stiffer wheel in their SLR to make it the same as their 26" wheel
    I know the wheels are heavy part of that bike,thinking of buying the bike to be honest.
    I can get one at a good price as i work in a bike shop
    1st thing i would change would be the wheels,they are ok as a spare/Oe fit/winter set.
    Rest of the bike seems to be ok,Wheels are tubeless ready aswell on them.

  11. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    797
    Bike is good even at retail.
    Aka chainline...

  12. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,952
    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot View Post
    Bike is good even at retail.
    We have a brand new 2013 in the shop,has the Black and red scheme on it,looks very nice,Has anodised red hubs and a few odd other parts in red,Trying to find out what i can do with the forks,not quite up to the Devilles but think a bit of playing with or a new damper may sort it.I want a 2nd bike,but dont want anything to fancy,just something to ride my local smooth trails when the weather is bad.

    Seems to ride ok,the forks with the weird offset are a bit of a nightmare if i ever want to upgrade.

  13. #63
    steep fast and loose :)
    Reputation: The_Lecht_Rocks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,271
    without doubt, wheels make the difference.

    i run 29" arch EX with 2.25" Nobby Nic's. The cornering grip is massively improved compared to the same 26" tyre.

    unfortunately though, as i wanted light wheels for my AC there is noticeable from the rear when really driving through turns / berms, but not so much as to need to "upgrade" rims.

    i do like the new crossmax sx wheelset however - they are light and stiff.

    the momentum and extra grip from 29" rules out 650B for me TBH, i see no point in a half way house when 29" gives what I'm after perfectly...........

  14. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    25
    Hello all.

    Many of you guys seems to have a lot of experience with Nicolai.
    I am waiting for my first Nicolai, which is a tailored 650b AM.

    Donít want to go into the discussion about benefits or not regarding 650b, just want to say that I have been riding this for 3 years on a SP pitch, and I am really glad to see beefier tires comes alongÖ.

    I havenít been discussing the geometry of my frame with any other than Marcel at Nicolai. At that moment I was told that they tested the AC 650b and that they were happy with the results. I believe that some of their experience with the AC 650b went in to my frame, as we discussed the BB hight and head angle thoroughly.
    We went 5mm higher on the BB, than the 650B AC, to match my 180mm crank arms, and the head angle will be +/- 1,5 degree with CC angleset.

    The travel settings will be:
    1. position: 175mm (only with 26 inch wheel)
    2. position: 164mm
    3. position: 150mm
    4. position: 139mm

    I havenít decided on fork and shock yet, but I hope to find one 20mm axle that does the job, on my list are: Deville 160mm TRC, Vengeance HLR and Suntour Durolux RC and for the rear: VipR, RS monarch plus RC3, Vector HLR Air and Durolux RCA

    I have tested the Deville with my 650 x 2.35 Nevegal on Velocity P35, (have pictures) and it clears good both arc and crown when fully compressed, the other two forks will clear as well.
    I am 82kg, and my riding will be 95% rough trails and 5% lift assisted DH. (I might want to have a cheap coil shock and a 180mm fork for the DH riding, When changing the head angle I have to remove the fork anyways. Head angle for DH riding with 650b front and 26 inch rear, will be around 63,5 - 64 degrees)

    Any thought on what to choose based on experience with the Helius linkage ??

    BR. Martin
    Last edited by gulprincipia; 09-01-2012 at 06:37 AM. Reason: more info

  15. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    248
    Here is my geometry for an AC Pinion 650b with 152mm of rear travel and revelation 2013 150mm 650b.



    For your shock i think a monarch plus is a good choice with setting M/M or M compresion and faster rebound than M in rought terrain you need more rebound to have more reactivity.

  16. #66
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,645
    Quote Originally Posted by gulprincipia View Post
    Any thought on what to choose based on experience with the Helius linkage ??

    BR. Martin
    Something with a decent mid-stroke or an adjustable one.

    IMO and it comes from the Helius AC 2010 is that they don't like shocks that blow through the midstroke.

    An air shock with a mid to small air chamber or a coil with piggyback are better suited. The mid-stroke (at least on my bike) is rather soft so it will use a lot of travel if the shock don't help it to ride high into travel.

    I have a high regard for the X-Fusion Vector HLR Air I run, but I have not ridden a CCDB or a Vip'r or any of those Gucci shocks.
    Check my Site

  17. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,952
    Quote Originally Posted by cyril_88 View Post
    Here is my geometry for an AC Pinion 650b with 152mm of rear travel and revelation 2013 150mm 650b.



    For your shock i think a monarch plus is a good choice with setting M/M or M compresion and faster rebound than M in rought terrain you need more rebound to have more reactivity.
    That looks very good Cyril.

  18. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by cyril_88 View Post
    For your shock i think a monarch plus is a good choice with setting M/M or M compresion and faster rebound than M in rought terrain you need more rebound to have more reactivity.
    Thanks Warp and Cyril,

    I also had the impression, from previous threads, that the AC and AM needs a firm midstroke shock.

    Nicolai told me that they supply the AM with Monarch Plus, Medium rebound/ Low compression. Do you belive this is a kind of "mainstream" setup, which might be to soft when it comes to more aggressive riders?

    The Monarch Plus RC3 has 3 compression settings, I donít know if this is Highspeed/lowspeed or both, but if this compression levels are able to give a firm midstroke, maybe a RC3 with the recommended tune for Nicolai is a good match?

    I have been looking for a Vector HLR Air, but they seems impossible to find these days.

    Nice frame Cyril, which shock/tune goes for that....

  19. #69
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
    Reputation: crisillo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    20,754
    Oh man... The ion looks awesome... I still have to process my RAW files, but I will post ASAP....

  20. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,952
    The Old AC,the same as i have,Nicolai told me Medium/Medium tune.

    I am a reasonable weight.lol

  21. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thepimpmessiah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    539
    I enquired from Nicolai details for the new ARGON AM and got sent the following link from Vincent...

    ARGON AM

    160mm forks, 65 deg head angle, low bottom bracket, and a long top tube

    Looks like a suitable replacement for the last hardtail I broke... but the fly in the oitment is my current thoughts of scratching the itch of 29 or 650b???

    Tough decision
    Last edited by thepimpmessiah; 11-07-2012 at 11:41 PM.

  22. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1,404
    oohh! custom argon fr 29er with 140 float?
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

    flash bikes for flash gits

  23. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation: thepimpmessiah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    539
    Quote Originally Posted by dipper View Post
    oohh! custom argon fr 29er with 140 float?
    I said "scratch an itch"... not launch thermo-nuclear-weapons at it

  24. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1,404
    if a jobs worth doing, its worth doing to excess
    www.gravity-sports.co.uk

    flash bikes for flash gits

  25. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: drakche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    60
    whyexfiles.dbap.de/Public/NICOLAI/Poster-2013/N-Poster-2013-Rueck-PRINT.pdf

    Found this on the while googling if ION 16 can fit 180mm fork.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •