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  1. #1
    Bandolero Crew N.M.
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    Three Bottle Vandalism

    Out on an evening ride yesterday we ran into quite a bit of vandalism at several different spots on the trail. At several of the features large rocks were either pulled out of the feature or the side of the trail and placed on the trail in front or out of site directly behind it. These were not rocks kicked up by bike tires. Some of these were large rocks and very intentionally placed. Most were on 3-B but one was on the Drop in trail. We took care of everything we found. With a very busy weekend coming up, keep your eyes pealed before you hit that $h1t. Makes me sick to think someone would purposely try to injure riders out here in the East Mtns.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  2. #2
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    Sorry to hear that. Seems as though, this sort of thing is only getting worse... If anyone sees anything suspicious including a description of individual(s), please report asap.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for posting up Steve.
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    Thanks for posting up Steve.
    Three Bottle Vandalism-oldmanjoe.jpg

  5. #5
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    Hope

    ...
    Last edited by Fuglio; 05-23-2013 at 06:01 AM.

  6. #6
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    Well, that's a keeper.

  7. #7
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    actually guys this is really old. its a message that was drama here in the NM forum a while back. I promised myself Id always stir the pot

  8. #8
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    They hit this again yesterday. I rode 3btls with Fred at about 6 yesterday and all the log rollovers were either torn out or sabotaged. The easy exit on the log ride after the big slab was pushed out into the trail. Several cheater rocks were pulled out. I suspect we were the first ones to ride through as the vandalism was enough that even a lazy rider would have pushed it out of the way. So it happened right before 6:15 when we rolled through.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  9. #9
    Genius
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    Kerry (or anyone),

    The culprit will never be found unless we use technology. Who has a motion camera that can be strategically placed to catch them "red handed"? Something like this perhaps.

    Moultrie Game Spy I-35 IR Game Camera - Walmart.com

    Even if we cant recognize the person the USFS can always send the pictures to the news media. Local news channels love this type of story if we have pictures that prove the vandalism and the public is encouraged to use the anonymous cops hotline to turn them in.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9 View Post
    Kerry (or anyone),

    The culprit will never be found unless we use technology. Who has a motion camera that can be strategically placed to catch them "red handed"? Something like this perhaps....

    Moultrie Game Spy I-35 IR Game Camera - Walmart.com
    +1. We all know of where some others are set up around the trail system up there.

  11. #11
    Bandolero Crew N.M.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    +1. We all know of where some others are set up around the trail system up there.
    I sent an email to Kerry asking if they have a game camera that could be put up on the trail. He said he could not make it out there this week. He is making up some signage to put up on the trail in the mean time that I'll put up tomorrow. I have some time the next few days and plan to spend quite a bit of it lurking around out there. I would love nothing better than to catch this guy. Nothing like a pissed off mtn biker.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  12. #12
    Bandolero Crew N.M.
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    Thanks to Kerry for making and posting some warning signs at Three-Bottles yesterday. They were up yesterday afternoon. While out there yesterday I also noticed that pretty much all flagging on the lower side of the trail for the new lines was gone. Prob. the same person. Little does he know that they have all been GPS-ed and are also locked into my memory. Remember,keep you eyes open and get lots of miles in this weekend.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Three Bottle Vandalism-3-bs-001.jpg  

    Three Bottle Vandalism-3-bs-004.jpg  

    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  13. #13
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    I never pass up an excuse to ride for work but I'd rather not have this issue. Sad.

    I'm hoping the formal designation of Three Bottles will help cut down on this sorta thing but there's some real idiots out there taking the "law" into their own hands...

  14. #14
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    Funny I was just awarded a grant to purchas such cameras but the intended use is monitoring problem spots with full size vehicles...either way, as fast as some of the wheels around here go the cameras will be in hand by the time the snow flies...

  15. #15
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    That would defeat the point wouldn't it?

  16. #16
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    Put the cameras up in your biggest problem areas. I see greater and more long-lasting damage from 4x4s and ATVs than from trail vandals. An example is the old pinon at the top of Coyote I've taken a break under for years. Seems someone was putting rocks in the middle of the trail on Western Boundary last summer. Wasn't too hard to ride over or around them though.

  17. #17
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    I'm working up a whole new suite of disguises, just in case...

  18. #18
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    Might I recommend a Guy Fawkes mask?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by toldsoya View Post
    Vanity is a deadly sin, Bob. I never took you for someone who liked to have his picture taken.
    Not sure what gave you that impression. Whatever preserves the trail. However, your resistance to these cameras raises a certain curiousness with your paranoia....
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  20. #20
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    Cameras may be the answer, but I am a little uneasy at the idea of government using cameras to watch citizens. Maybe it's warranted, but if it it doesn't raise the hair on the back of your neck just a little, maybe it's time to pay more attention to what's happening around you.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrebyter View Post
    Cameras may be the answer, but I am a little uneasy at the idea of government using cameras to watch citizens. Maybe it's warranted, but if it it doesn't raise the hair on the back of your neck just a little, maybe it's time to pay more attention to what's happening around you.
    Is it 1984 already?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrebyter View Post
    Cameras may be the answer, but I am a little uneasy at the idea of government using cameras to watch citizens. Maybe it's warranted, but if it it doesn't raise the hair on the back of your neck just a little, maybe it's time to pay more attention to what's happening around you.
    Which is why I ALWAYS wear my Obama mask when building jumps and features on upper Otero...

  23. #23
    Genius
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    Keep in mind these are public lands and there should be no expectation of privacy. I see no problem with cameras out in public areas. They help prevent crime and catch the fools that keep us from having nice things.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by toldsoya View Post
    You might have more "nice things" if you participated in anything but the occasional rant on the internet.

    So, who will keep people from vandalizing the cameras? How much will all of this cost to monitor/maintenance these cameras? Will they have an on board memory card or will it be remote? You own a business, right? Do you think it's "worth" it, bobby? Again, it's all about efficiency...
    Exactly what I was thinking, seems like a huge expenditure of resources to prevent people from moving rocks. It suck that people do it, and I don't like it more than anyone else, but with the time and resources spent it seems more efficient to just put the rocks back.

    I know we all want vengeance for this kind of thing, but lets try to be practical with the tax dollars.

  25. #25
    Genius
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    Quote Originally Posted by toldsoya View Post
    You might have more "nice things" if you participated in anything but the occasional rant on the internet.

    So, who will keep people from vandalizing the cameras? How much will all of this cost to monitor/maintenance these cameras? Will they have an on board memory card or will it be remote? You own a business, right? Do you think it's "worth" it, bobby? Again, it's all about efficiency...
    An additional $99 dollar camera seems like a worthy investment if it helps. My tires cost more than that. Besides, do you really think there are not cameras already up there? There are. I have seen them, maybe you haven't. Not that it matters but I have done my time building and maintaining trails. I was out there before you even started riding. These last few years I have been building a family and a business which leaves little time for much else but I do what I can on my own time. But I think it's fair to say I have spent far more time working the trails than you. Including your "illegal ones"..... but I ride those too and I have no issue with that oddly enough

    If proposing that technology be used is a "rant" then you misunderstand. It sure seems more efficient than fixing the trail every few days..... rant over. If thats what this was.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  26. #26
    Genius
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    Quote Originally Posted by swildnm View Post

    I know we all want vengeance for this kind of thing, but lets try to be practical with the tax dollars.
    Practical with tax dollars? You must have us mistaken with some other country.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  27. #27
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    This is all a pipe dream. Nothing government purchased will cost $99 and the fs isn't exactly sitting on a budget surplus. Legitimizing won't stop peoples intentions.

  28. #28
    Genius
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    This is all a pipe dream. Nothing government purchased will cost $99 and the fs isn't exactly sitting on a budget surplus. Legitimizing won't stop peoples intentions.
    They have the cameras already. No need to buy more. Legitimizing may not stop people intentions but it may stop their actions and at least I would know who to mix it up with on the trail.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  29. #29
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    Public lands at least to me imply the peoples lands. Not the governments. They just manage them. To spy on your citizens in the off chance they may commit a crime doesn't sit well with me. Private property cameras are a different story. You can't simply put up a low buck camera and expect it to be effective. It requires infrastructure and fail overs. One camera in one spot is useless. If I had to put a dollar amount on an effective multi camera system with vandal proof recording I'd guess in the $50k range. I've bid work like that before

  30. #30
    Genius
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    ^^ Your right. We should do nothing. Lets just let it become Cedro. FYI -Cedro used to be just like Otero and it got ruined. So lets just rollover and leave Otero to become the next Cedro and we will all be happy.

    But like I said the cameras are already there, they have been for years. Enjoy your "public" lands.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  31. #31
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    The cameras are on federal property.

  32. #32
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    Dont use owl! Hes over charging ill put up a system for 49k

    Im against the cameras. Not cause i think they are invasive but thier ineffective.

    Owls right to get an actuall system out there would be cost prohibitive. That leavs you with putting up game cameras.
    With only using 2 or 3 on a section of trail all youll have is pictures of riders and hikers that were on the trail at a certain time. Its possible that the cameras could catch somone in the act, but the placement of them would make theft of tje game cameras much more likley.
    Even if we got great photos of a trail vandal we would still have to match the picture to a name. And at this point be able to prove that they were intending to hurt somone. Sorry to say but unless avperson actually got hurt the DA might not think its worth thier time.


    Trail vandals wont go away but i think the best way to limit their activity is by having more trails. More trails means less congestion and lessens the chances of somone who allready hates mountain bikers comeing in contact with us. The less they see us the less they hate us. Maybe bike only trails are a possible solution.


    Being polite should go without saying.

    These are public lands we have to share them(even with crazy people) fines and jail time dont deter people with a mental illness. The best solution is to have bike only trails to lessen trafic on multi use trails . By doing so we could lessen traffic and negitive encounters. This would help prevent sick people getting pushed to the brakeing point

  33. #33
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    Find a retired sniper looking for a job for some extra cash...

  34. #34
    Bandolero Crew N.M.
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    Good news is that as of Monday 3-Bs has been left alone. I figure this person either lives out here or they really went out of their way to tear it up and remove flagging last Thurs and Fri. On Monday there was a motorcycle burn out in the dirt right next to one of the warning signs at the north end of the trail. Don't know if their related or not. Lets hope it don't happen again. But if it does, I plan on making it a personal thing to catch them. Were very close to having all the signatures needed to start building the new lines. I'll be damned if were going to build them and have some idiot come in and tear them up. 3-Bs is 30 min. ride from my house. I'll spend some time out there. I want to look at some other things out there as well. Like future lines. After June 10th, we won't have to worry about it for a while.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  35. #35
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    Game camera: $70
    Wildgame Innovations Axe 2 2MP Game Camera : Cabela's

    Technology is cheap. No need for a network. Legislation is cheap too; just look at the Patriot Act. With a name like that it's got to be good, right? You OK with cameras watching the citizens? They are fine with that in Japan, China, most of Europe and damned sure every totalitarian state on the planet too. APD built a 'Crime Center' where hundreds of real-time cameras show what we are doing. Some of us are NOT OK with that and never will be. The erosion of liberty is a bit slower than the damage to 3-Bottles but unlike the trail, liberty can never be restored.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrebyter View Post
    Game camera: $70
    Wildgame Innovations Axe 2 2MP Game Camera : Cabela's

    Technology is cheap. No need for a network. Legislation is cheap too; just look at the Patriot Act. With a name like that it's got to be good, right? You OK with cameras watching the citizens? They are fine with that in Japan, China, most of Europe and damned sure every totalitarian state on the planet too. APD built a 'Crime Center' where hundreds of real-time cameras show what we are doing. Some of us are NOT OK with that and never will be. The erosion of liberty is a bit slower than the damage to 3-Bottles but unlike the trail, liberty can never be restored.
    What liberty is eroded by game cameras?

    Legislation is far from cheap. How many lobbyists did you hire last year to get laws past?

  37. #37
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    A camera like that is good for a few weeks.. more of a novelty. Like 29" tires.
    More and more we are presented with options to add safety to our lives at the cost of freedoms. Im ok with a little danger and a lot of freedom.
    <-- add negative rep here.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyrebyter View Post
    Game camera: $70
    Wildgame Innovations Axe 2 2MP Game Camera : Cabela's

    Technology is cheap. No need for a network. Legislation is cheap too; just look at the Patriot Act. With a name like that it's got to be good, right? You OK with cameras watching the citizens? They are fine with that in Japan, China, most of Europe and damned sure every totalitarian state on the planet too. APD built a 'Crime Center' where hundreds of real-time cameras show what we are doing. Some of us are NOT OK with that and never will be. The erosion of liberty is a bit slower than the damage to 3-Bottles but unlike the trail, liberty can never be restored.

  38. #38
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    The supreme court says even in public places you hve a reasonable expectation of privacy. And that you cant just post survalence cams where ever.

    You can place cameras in an area likely to have a crime occur that out weighs the loss of privacy in that area.

    Im more worried about drones ... but legislation is so cheap ill get that fixed right away

  39. #39
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    Amen, brother.

  40. #40
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    Hard to tell where you're coming from. The Patriot Act passed without the help of lobbyists. Cheap. Gulf of Ton-kin Resolution. Cheap. War Powers Act. Cheap.
    You're for cameras, against cameras? Only where it might benefit you? That's expedience, not principle. Government recording citizens going about their lives is erosion of liberty whether it's a game camera or a high resolution stabilized PTZ available-light video feed to the FBI pointed at your house. Warrant-less intrusion just the price of safety?

  41. #41
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    Game cameras and drones are not the same thing. I against cameras for the sake of cameras. Im for the use of them in certain situations.

    Lumping warrentless wire taps, infrared cameras, and fbi survalence together with a game camera on a public trail is in no way principled.

    The game camera is being deployed to observe a specific act. Its not an eye in the sky waiting to punish all law breakers or make logs of our activites

    Its just an economical way to keep an eye on the trail for people sabbatoging it in a way that could cause serious harm to other people.

    I hope it doesnt come as a shock that a person could be opposed to neighbor hood drone flights but in favor of a game camera on the side of a trail to stop vandals.

    I am against DWI check points. But if someone saw a car driving badly on a traffic cam I wouldntvhave a probem with the car getting pulled over after a tip was called in. I dont mind cameras on police dash boards or lapel cams. Dont mind cameras on sandia peak. Dont care about google earth.

    I dont mind taking drivera licence pictures..... where do your principles end?


    Like i said above im not for putting up game cameras. Only because I belive it would be ineffective. If i thought we could catch him damn right. I would be for.it.

    What about my freedom to ride trails that arnt booby trapt

    IF WE KNEW PUTTING A GAME CAMERA ON THE TRAIL WOULD CATCH THOS GIY WOULD YOU STILL SAY NO?

  42. #42
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    This is going no where, but thanks for the debate. See you on the trail.

  43. #43
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    It was a good debate. Everyone that has shared an opinion made a valid point and provided reasonable reasons that support their view. Good discussion.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  44. #44
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    I feel it was lacking the usual "no you're a stupid-face" comments.
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

    -cabra cadabra

  45. #45
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    I hate fire restictions.... forum is about to get more heated

  46. #46
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    If you knew a DWI check point would catch drunk drivers who might injure or kill other people on the road would you still say no?
    Santa Cruz 5010 CC V2

  47. #47
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    Well, that's supposed intent, isn't it?

    If you're equating a DWI checkpoint to a placing a game camera to catch vandals, I don't think they're analogous.

    In general, I'd rather be more free/less safe.
    Airborne Flight Crew

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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlx john View Post
    If you knew a DWI check point would catch drunk drivers who might injure or kill other people on the road would you still say no?

    I am saying no. Dwi check points assume everone on the road is drunk and make you prove you inocence. Why not make interlocks mandatory like seat belts. Im generally against the way we handel the dwi problem.

    The game camera does take away privacy. As do dwi check points. But one forgets that your inocent untill proven guilty. Normally police need a reason to pull you over. The game camera dosent stop every one on the trail and have them explian themselves.

    In New York they have a stop and frisk law. Where cops can ask any one to explain what they are up too and seach them with no cause. I would much rather have a camera on the corner then a cop stoping with no reason other then he doesnt like what im up to.


    Any ways taking a picture or video in a pulic space is an invasion of privacy that is far from the invasion of being stoped and forced to prove you inoccence.

  49. #49
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    They are both warrant-less intrusion, but yes, it's a stretch of a comparison. Less government is always preferred by those who oppose tyranny.
    The participants in this forum are probably a pretty fair representation of mountain bikers at large and seem to be an opinionated, independent, cranky, foul tempered, vulgar collection of oafs. In short, my kind of people. Pity the saboteur if ever identified.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrebyter View Post
    They are both warrant-less intrusion, but yes, it's a stretch of a comparison. Less government is always preferred by those who oppose tyranny.
    The participants in this forum are probably a pretty fair representation of mountain bikers at large and seem to be an opinionated, independent, cranky, foul tempered, vulgar collection of oafs. In short, my kind of people. Pity the saboteur if ever identified.
    I love riding on tyranical public lands

    We are the government less or more is neither good or bad.

    If a company wants to dump waste in a river. Im all for a tyranical government to tell them no. But it does limit the rights of the factory owner.

    Im for a tyranical government arresting child molestors. I think thats a good thing.


    We are the government. The less people participate in democracy the less it will be representitave of them.

    I should add that the biggest players in the less government more freedom crowd are think taks that work on behalf of corparations. That dont want to deal with enviromental reguations or pay taxes.

    This same group of people are also for a "strong national defence" and somehow they fit that into the small government mantra

    So the goal isnt small government its to avoid taxes and pollute......


    I

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