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  1. #1
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    Three Bottle Technical trail extension and work on existing trail feedback.

    Interested on getting feedback on the work proposed to 3-B. What are riders looking for in features? What should go and what should stay, Generally what are we expecting this trail to be when it gets done? How do you feel about having to make everything motorcycle accessible? Think about your concerns are. Since this is where to tap lots of riders thoughts, a good open discussion on this should happen. I for one am excited about the possibility of a legit technical trail Going in. Concerned that what I think of as a technical trail and what the FS thinks are two different things. Don't want to get my hopes up to much quite yet. Now Ive heard that this trail will have to be Moto accessible. That I'm not at all thrilled with. And don't quite get.Will the features then have to be built fot motorcycles and not mtn bikes. Thought I was told that it would have to be signed as an advanced technical trail. MTB only. We know that the log rides are going. What about other features like Sub Rock or some know it as the Loaf. Things like that are kind of signature features on 3-B. So post your thoughts and ideas and perhaps Kerry can help clear some things up or answer questions before work starts.
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  2. #2
    Genius
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    I would like to see as many "features" built into the trail as possible. Logs, jumps, rock gardens, and the like. There would have to be round-a-bouts for those not wanting to hit such features (which the motos should be told to use as well) and should be labeled as such with signs and what not. The Albuquerque area has lost it's technical trails. Such features still exist as we all know but they are no longer on the main trial like they used to be. The more tech the better.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  3. #3
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    Don't hold back...

    Well, I'd like to see "it all" on there...

    • Logrides/skinnies. Some just staight on, others that are bent or segmented
    • Jumps of varying size and shape (some straight, some that hip one way or the other, step ups, step downs.) Anything but just straight on jumps that consist of a 2 foot tall lip and flat landing
    • Drops - not drops to flat though, drops to a transitioned landing. Maybe a zone, or a line with progressively larger drops as it goes on...
    • Techy lines that rider has follow over various rocks and logs, up and incline or whatever, similar to some things I've seen in the foothills.

    Though I'm not exactly thrilled to hear it - moto accessible doesn't bother me so much, if it doesn't bother the FS. Except of course NOT on any features.

    Moto access, really?
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  4. #4
    Genius
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post


    Though I'm not exactly thrilled to hear it - moto accessible doesn't bother me so much, if it doesn't bother the FS. Except of course NOT on any features.

    Moto access, really?
    Agreed. There is no point in having a feature that a moto will destroy with its 400-500 lbs mass and it's 40hp engine.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9 View Post
    Agreed. There is no point in having a feature that a moto will destroy with its 400-500 lbs mass and it's 40hp engine.
    More I think about it, the more I don't think I really like the idea at all. I hate to be exclusive, but what sense does it make?

    Why do the moto's get jump in already?
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by barleylegal View Post
    I'd like to see new trail cut into the existing landscape to incorparate large chunk.
    The motos need access too. So three bottles as it sits today might be gone. A new line for motos will get cut in. Its up to us mountain bikers to fight for the A-line. So theres a easy moto/XC line amd a nice and techy more difficult line made only for bikes. It wont happen if we dont fight for it. Anyone whos intrested should come to tje scouting workdays (still undetermimed dates at this time)

    Working together is important. If we dont want tunnel/otero to become a rockless moto friendly abomination it will take all us riders of difernt disaplines working together.
    Every one working together is key to get what we are expecting to get.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    Moto access, really?
    I think this sums it up pretty well.

    I have no problem with motos, I am sure they are great people with just as much passion as us. But why does 3-Bs need to be a shared resource? I definitely do not see how a trail can be technical and progressive while also accommodating a motorcycle.

    Now if there were two different trails, as suggested, I can see that working out.
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    Now if there were two different trails, as suggested, I can see that working out.
    Yes, this makes sense.
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  9. #9
    but i want to ride now
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    "Moto access, really?"

    I am no frequenter of Three Bottles, normally I've been too pressed for time to stretch my loop out in that direction, but of the handful of times I've been out there, I've encountered motos. Last time, over the summer, I came up on about five of them in a group heading north, so they already seem to have a foothold.
    Now, when it comes to the trail itself I have mixed feelings; technical trails are too few and far between, and while 3B has good bones, the majority of its features were built so poorly that it makes me more excited than trepidatious towards a bit of a rebuild.
    Of course I had no hand in the original incarnation of this trail or its features and perhaps this is why I have no particular connection to whether the current features (with the exception of the various stone features). If i had any say in how the trail gets redesigned I'd say it needs more:
    Flow- for a faster rolling trail.
    Drops/Jumps- for a techy trail, I'm always surprised at how few of these 3B has
    Extended-I see Skerry already has this on his mockup, which is good cuz who likes 2 track
    Clarification- 3B as it sits now is technically a 2 way trail. I'd rather see it designated as one way (if this is possible) from north to south, or, at least made more enjoyable as a two way.
    Anyway, I'd be in for Sun 3/3 scouting run.
    sweet sweet trails

  10. #10
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    3B needs flow. Not saying it needs to be buffed out ST, tech sections are important. They can flow as well. Good example is Holy Cross in Grand J, or many of the new trails in Moab. I think ABQ has the type of terrain that lends itself to a variety of trails that can satisfy most everyone.

  11. #11
    but i want to ride now
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    ^^^
    Agreed, I don't endorse a sanitization of 3B, just some more thought at how to make a flowing technical trail. For instance, Tio Juanito. I wouldn't call it technical and its been graded too shallowly, but it does present some fun little drops and lines and, for the most part, flow. If you want, that trail can roll pretty fast. I'd hate for it to turn into what the top part of Coyote has become, too slow, with awkward grade reversals, as well as a complete abandoning of the original feel of that trail. If nothing else, keeping a slightly more open, faster trail is less likely to be injured by throttle happy motos (again, see coyote reroute).
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  12. #12
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    to Flow

    I guess we all have different opinions about flow.

    Tio Jaunita has none, and 3-Bs has plenty.
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  13. #13
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    Flow simply means "not much peddling required" or "limited peddling or effort needed" to maintain no less than 10+mph for an extended period of time. Tunnel for example has good flow on the return, but lacks tech and has too many blind corners to really let loose. Which leads me to think 3B should be really be a one way trail.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  14. #14
    Single Speed Junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by barleylegal View Post
    Here is a link to Kerry's poll. (get your mind out the gutter) Vote for all you can attend and he will get back with the decided day(s)

    Doodle: Three Bottles Scouting
    Thanks for the link.

    Would be interesting to see what is possible using only hard scape linking rock to rock.

  15. #15
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    Just say Flow

    The terrain around 3-B didn't strike me as "flowy" at all (and that's fine).

    According to IMBA: (this is why the term"flow" makes me hesitant in regards to 3-B)

    Flow Trails take mountain bikers on a terrain-induced roller coaster experience, with little pedaling and braking necessary. This style of trail typically contains features like banked turns, rolling terrain, various types of jumps, and consistent and predictable surfaces.

    Flowy is like PBR in Fruita, or as mentioned above - Tunnel going down (without the blind turns). From my understanding, that's the opposite of what 3-B is about. Concentrating on "flow" - whatever that may be, is taking away from the spirit of the project. Foothills would be a great, no- awesome place for flow trail.

    On the one-way thing I agree, anything with jump/drop features poses a "hazard" for anyone coming up trail.
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  16. #16
    but i want to ride now
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    Perhaps I need to rethink the "flow" label. Perhaps what I actually meant was consistency and rhythm. I currently see 3B as being too disjunctive, too piecemeal to really achieve "rhythm" as it currently sits.
    sweet sweet trails

  17. #17
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    Thanks for that Hazard.

    I was thinking of Flow as being a trail that is consistent. The effort of the trail is the same throughout. 3B has flow in that regard, but of course it doesn't fit the IMBA's idea.

    Tio Juanita down has no flow because everytime you get a good rhythm going you come up on a sharp , blown out corner.
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  18. #18
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    I just jumped to a conclusion regarding the term, sorry Just wanted to make sure I was on the same page...

    I thought that 3-B has a decent rhythm, didn't have problem negotiating turns fast or slow...
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  19. #19
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    I put up some ideas with flagging (in pink) yesterday. They're just ideas to get us started. Of course with the snow, I'll most likely schedule for weekend after this.

  20. #20
    RCC
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    Well, I'd like to see "it all" on there...

    • Logrides/skinnies. Some just staight on, others that are bent or segmented
    • Jumps of varying size and shape (some straight, some that hip one way or the other, step ups, step downs.) Anything but just straight on jumps that consist of a 2 foot tall lip and flat landing
    • Drops - not drops to flat though, drops to a transitioned landing. Maybe a zone, or a line with progressively larger drops as it goes on...
    • Techy lines that rider has follow over various rocks and logs, up and incline or whatever, similar to some things I've seen in the foothills.
    That's what I'd like to have,if possible.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Every one working together is key to get what we are expecting to get.
    Seem to be many expectations here. Bottom line is Skerry is willing to listen and work with us to improve the trail system and incorporate many unofficial trails. Whatever the path chosen, let's back him up and get er done. Not pick up our toys and go home just because specific desires aren't realized.

    Ok, I won't ride many of the lines I see RCC ride but maybe by supporting the effort I can persuade Skerry to think about one of my pet projects: a trail on the north side of the old dump road connecting the lower trailhead with the upper one and on to Coyote. I rode up there about 8 years ago (statute of limitations and all) and it could be done. Some rock ledges, nice swooping turns... I absolutely hate the gravel road to Coyote, up or down. Might even forgive Skerry the Birdhouse name...

  22. #22
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    Right now there is still about 75% snow coverage here in the Raven Rd. area. With the warmer weather expected Friday and Sat.,I have the feeling we will be trudging through lots of mud to even get to 3-B. Its up to Kerry but it would best serve our purpose to hold off for another week.
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  23. #23
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    Just heard from Kerry. He agrees that it will be to muddy to go out and walk 3-B this Saturday. So right now he is looking at moving it back 2 weeks to the 16TH March. Weather and conditions pending. No one is more excited to get going on this project but conditions need to be much better. In the mean time , See you on the trail.
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  24. #24
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    thanks for the update Steve, and good call on the mud.
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    thanks for the update Steve, and good call on the mud.
    +1. No need to stomp around in the mudd.

  26. #26
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    Quick reminder. The initial meet and walk through at 3 Bottles has been moved back 2 weeks because of very muddy conditions. Hope to see you there on Sat , March 16th. Weather pending. Looks like a great streach of weather on the way. Otero will prob be another week or so to dry out again.
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  27. #27
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    This Sat. the 16th is a go. Hope to see you all there for the initial walk through for the new work to be done on Three Bottles Technical Trail. David Canyon PL. at 9:00 am. Looking forward to seeing what the plans are and get input from everyone. If this project goes well, it could set the stage for future technical trail development here.
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  28. #28
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    First of all I want to thank Kerry for a VERY positive meeting at Three Bottles Trail yesterday. Great turnout all the Bandoleros, but no others showed. If you don't get out for some of the planning you are going to miss out on some good stuff. With some of the new lines and features we looked at, 3-Bs will be much improved over what is there, plus most of what is there will stay. There will pretty much be something for everyone on this trail. There will be two, two way bypass routs that will feed above and below the technical lines. The bypass routs will maintain the character of 3-B and the technical lines will be a step up or two of whats there now. Black Diamond Baby. The 3B Extension goes through a much less rocky ares. This will be more of a flow, bermed, banked fast trail with some doubles,jumps and what ever else that makes it awesome. This will be a trail that the Tech lovers will be proud of. And the people that just want to ride through. It will be a big improvement for you as well.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Three Bottle Technical trail  extension and work on existing trail feedback.-3-bs-scouting-lines-008.jpg  

    Three Bottle Technical trail  extension and work on existing trail feedback.-3-bs-scouting-lines-009.jpg  

    Three Bottle Technical trail  extension and work on existing trail feedback.-3-bs-scouting-lines-010.jpg  

    Three Bottle Technical trail  extension and work on existing trail feedback.-3-bs-scouting-lines-011.jpg  

    Three Bottle Technical trail  extension and work on existing trail feedback.-3-bs-scouting-lines-012.jpg  

    Three Bottle Technical trail  extension and work on existing trail feedback.-3-bs-scouting-lines-013.jpg  

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  29. #29
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    Wow, that looks like some great terrain! Good work fellas!

  30. #30
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    Yea it will be sweet! With a top and bottom trail session-ing will be easy.



    this is a 15/20 foot roller. legalize it!!!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Three Bottle Technical trail  extension and work on existing trail feedback.-3-bs-scouting-lines-009.jpg  


  31. #31
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    Steve et al.,

    Thanks for coming out and meeting me on Sat. I think we've got a good starting point. Apologies for the abrupt exit, got a call from a coworker in need of help on the n side of the district. Anyway, I'll get a map together this week.

  32. #32
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    Nice to finally meet you Kerry. I am really looking forward to this project and I know good things will come of it.

    -Rory
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  33. #33
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    Great job Kerry and the Bandos!
    nix that, livin la vida bandos is a good idea when you're on a Mojo HD

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  34. #34
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    this is a 15/20 foot roller. legalize it!!!![/QUOTE]

    Thats going to be a nice roller. Prob have to remove the small tree at the bottom.
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  35. #35
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    So when do we start moving dirt and cutting trees? I see the window getting smaller between now and the forest closure which I'm betting will happen mid to end of May unless the weather changes dramatically.

  36. #36
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    GPS has been done, Waiting on some signage that has to be in place first. The upper and lower bypass will be the first to go in. After that we can start on the features between. As soon as I know I'll post up right away. When time comes, the more help out there the quicker we can have some fun. The area flagged is right before and right after the switch backs and sub rock. Both above and below. Check it out. The extension at the north end of 3-Bs will be will be after the area around sub rock is done.
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  37. #37
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    Still time to get your 2 cents in on the technical lines at 3 bottles trail. Meeting Kerry at the David Canyon TH this Sat at 9am. The upper and lower bypass two way trails are pretty much marked. We will be looking a various tech lines and how-where to tie them into the main trail. Lots of options there. Hope to see some different faces out there Sat. After we look things over with Kerry its time to go hit some $h!t.
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  38. #38
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    Reminder!!!! Meeting with Kerry at the David Can PL at 9am this Sat. I will be riding my bike into 3-Bs from there. I know more than just the Bandoleros are interested in this project. Lets see some support other than just here on MTBR. Its going to be a great trail for everyone. Come on and get your 2 cents in and then off for a great day of riding. See ya there!
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Reminder!!!! Meeting with Kerry at the David Can PL at 9am this Sat. I will be riding my bike into 3-Bs from there. I know more than just the Bandoleros are interested in this project. Lets see some support other than just here on MTBR. Its going to be a great trail for everyone. Come on and get your 2 cents in and then off for a great day of riding. See ya there!
    Really wish I could make it out there this sounds like a great project for all skill levels. Hope it goes well.

  40. #40
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    If you are all there in the afternoon I will probably run into you.

  41. #41
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    Getting closer to go time. Kerry is waiting for a signed Decision Memo. Then get some signage up and build some fun stuff. Good things take time. Things are flagged, so go have a look.
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  42. #42
    but i want to ride now
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    I wish I could have gone on one of the recons. Working Sat. put that right out of the question.
    sweet sweet trails

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldousfilcher View Post
    I wish I could have gone on one of the recons. Working Sat. put that right out of the question.
    Its far from over. Worst case you could ride out with somone who can speak for your intentions. More then likely kerry will have a sunday recon.......next year

  44. #44
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    I thought we were getting close to build time but were still in wait mode. Looks like we are still waiting on signatures from the Biologest and Archeologest before the final Decision Memo. Their work is done but waiting on their signatures. I'm told that there were no issues with either, so not sure why the wait. Other than its gouvernment. I know I would sure like to get started befor we get locked out due to dryness. Perhaps Kerry can give us a realistic time frame.
    Last edited by mtbike52; 05-06-2013 at 07:06 AM. Reason: spelling
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    I thought we were getting close to build time but were still in wait mode. Looks like we are still waiting on signatures from the Biologest and Archeologest before the final Decision Memo. Their work is done but waiting on their signatures. I'm told that there were no issues with either, so not sure why the wait. Other than its gouvernment. I know I would sure like to get started befor we get locked out due to dryness. Perhaps Kerry can give us a realistic time frame.
    Steve, things are on the way. The Bio report is complete and the arch report will be complete once tribal consultation is done. I know it's hard waiting but hang in there. If I can get a few minutes I'll try and get a final estimate on signage so that can get underway.

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