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  1. #1
    High Alpine Adventure
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    Should we go to bat for Otero?

    Here's the question that is being proposed. Should Friends of the Outdoors Trail Partners (FooMTB) organize to try to force the issue of designating the lands of the Cibola National Forest on the West Side of Highway 337 encompassing the Trail Systems associated with Otero, Tunnel and David Canyon (Mars Court) as being open for non-motorized use only (Hiking, Mt. Biking and Equestrian)?

    The issue as I see it is the Mt. Biking Community has not been accommodated effectively in the present Travel Plan. Approximately 48% of the Sandia District has been reserved for hiking only in the form of Wilderness. The remaining 52% allocates approximately 10% for ATV/Jeep access in the form of roads. The remaining ~42% is open to all forms of Motorcycle, Hiking, Mt. Biking and Equestrian use.

    Should we propose that Cedro Peak be left as open for Motorized Use on Single Track Trails as defined in the Travel Management Plan. However, that the West side of the highway be designated solely for Non-Motorized activity and recognized as such by a change to the existing travel plan?
    Last edited by DaGoat; 07-15-2009 at 09:29 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Absolutely! I will be at the next meeting, Goat. It's something that needs to happen pretty quickly. As I understand it, once the audits are done and signs made for the TMP it will be next to impossible to get any new trails adopted or built. That is slated for 2010.

  3. #3
    Bandolero Crew N.M.
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    Darn straight! I think everyone knows how I feel about this topic. Let me know when and where and im there. Motorized use in this area makes no sense. I would hope that a lot of us here will come out to support this effort.Lets go guys! We need everyones support for this very important issue.

  4. #4
    Bandolero
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    Think of the children

    // Devil's Advocate:
    But if you take those trails away, where will the childrens go?
    //

    I think it's worth it. A bit of before and after evidence may do much to sway their opinion. Just get someone with a motorcycle to run up and down Tunnel (trail 05145) and the east ridge of Otero (trail 05236) a few times to show that those trails are not conducive to motorized travel.

    The impact that will result in a motorcycle going south on Otero Canyon (trial 05056) and then continuing east and connecting to the east ridge (trail 05057 & trail 05236) is something that should be brought to the attention of the FS. I'm not sure what the fall line trail is called that connects trail 05057 to 05056, but it must be a FS approved re-route to accommodate the DOE withdrawal area. I like descending that trail and given an appropriate motorcycle, would make a few attempts at going up and down it.

    // I do not own a motorcycle so don't even start.

    Those trails are the best place to start a campaign on.

    A survey of the residents in the local area should also be done.
    See the trails, be one with FOO-MTB.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  5. #5
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    I think it would be great to get the Otero area non motorized. When is the next meeting? Like others I've already seen the effects of dirt bikes on the trails. Ripping up corners, going to fast into corners and making a new wider line and I'm sure tearing up the climbs will come as soon as the dirt dries out.

  6. #6
    I <3 NM
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    I'm IN for anything that can be done via email/letter writting etc since I am living out of state at moment. I can probably get a few of my Alb area friends to help the effort as well.

    Otero is no place for motos.
    "Someone must have put alcohol in my beer last night." ~ Mr. Richard Baty, Esq.


  7. #7
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    Count me in, too. Just let me know when and where and I'll be there. Otero/Tunnel is very important to those of us who live in the E. Mountains. TB.

  8. #8
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    this is worthwhile, as is continuing to work with the AF to officially get access to portions of the withdrawal area. The last Base Commander was a biking/public access advocate, and the ball was definitely dropped by not working with him. Goat, what's the status of FOO working for official access to portions of the withdrawal???
    Richard
    Don't hate me because I'm Ti

  9. #9
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    Oh yeah, keep the people who built the trails off of them. Great idea.

  10. #10
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    Before you start ranting, you really should address all of the problems associated with riding moto's on pristine ST. The ONLY reason that they are not in the same shape as Cedro is because you guys assumed that they were off limits in the first place. Otherwise, I would not even be interested in preserving them (in their current state, of course).

  11. #11
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    You telling me not to rant about something is the pot calling the kettle black if I've ever heard it!!

    The only reason why they are there and in such good shape is because they were built by motorcyclists, for motorcyclists.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Before you start ranting, you really should address all of the problems associated with riding moto's on pristine ST. The ONLY reason that they are not in the same shape as Cedro is because you guys assumed that they were off limits in the first place. Otherwise, I would not even be interested in preserving them (in their current state, of course).

  12. #12
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    No, the only reason they are there is because Friends of the Outdoors fought for them to remain open. They should have (technically) been in the Withdrawal area. ... and they (FOO) continue to provide trail maintenance.

  13. #13
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    You need to go back a little farther then that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    No, the only reason they are there is because Friends of the Outdoors fought for them to remain open. They should have (technically) been in the Withdrawal area. ... and they (FOO) continue to provide trail maintenance.

  14. #14
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    The difference between then and now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    You need to go back a little farther [SIZE="3"]then[/SIZE] that.
    is that it would be illegal for anyone to ride Otero if it weren't for Friends of the Outdoors.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    is that it would be illegal for anyone to ride Otero if it weren't for Friends of the Outdoors.

    In that there would be no trails (as we know them) to ride if it wasn't for motorcycles.

  16. #16
    Genius
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    The Bottom Line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    In that there would be no trails (as we know them) to ride if it wasn't for motorcycles.
    Dude. The bottom line is that....regardless of who built them.... motorcycles DESTROY trails for everyone else that uses them. What dont you get about that?. Now assuming motoriders built them a few decades ago (who the hell really knows), you all abandoned them and others who actually use the trails adopted them. Do you expect those who have maintained them all this time (since you all left and did nothing to help... you were to busy destroying Cedro I suppose) to bend over and take it in the a$$ now that you want to come back? You lost your claim years ago.

    Cedro WAS nice until dirt bikes tore it up. Now it will never be the same. Not in 100 years. We cannot allow this to happen to Otero too.

    There are 4 other disciplines (hikers, bikers, horse's, trail runners) that use these trails that are non-destructive. And yours (motos) is the ONLY one that completely ruins it for everyone else.

    It's 4 to 1 bro. In this instance the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the very few.

    On this subject. There is NO arguement. Lurk more.
    Last edited by 6bobby9; 07-20-2009 at 12:30 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    In that there would be no trails (as we know them) to ride if it wasn't for motorcycles.
    You should change your screen name to The-West-Was-Settled-On-A-Motorcycle, and save yourself all that wasted typing.

    Not only have we learned to respect that made-by-motorcycles argument in the case of Cedro, but we've also learned to accept the fact that they're always going to be there, and that their irresponsible behavior will continuously deteriorate the trails, almost on a weekly basis.

    On the other hand, the FACT of the matter is that, in the case of Tunnel/Otero, and it's regardless of your having grown up watching your own grandparents forge the trails with their horsedrawn motorcycles, the Otero trails are in the pristine condition that they are now because motorcycles HAVE NOT been riding on them for many years. And that, they too, will soon be deteriorating on a weekly basis because of motorcycle traffic.

    Furthermore, to whatever extent motorcycles may have been used (very possibly not at all) in the development of the most recent handful of superb trails in Otero, they most certainly were not crafted for use BY motorcycles.

  18. #18
    Bandolero
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    End of Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    You need to go back a little farther then that.
    I'm Godwining this line of thinking.

    By your reasoning the only users who should use the Autobahns in Germany are Nazis.

    They built them. It was for their use. Even though things have changed, they are the rightful users for ever.

    See the trails, be one with FOO-MTB.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    ... By your reasoning the only users who should use the Autobahns in Germany are Nazis.

    They built them. It was for their use. Even though things have changed, they are the rightful users for ever.
    Now you've done it, Knob! Analogy competition.

    If I clear your lot, I get to park my backhoe on your front lawn.

  20. #20
    Bandolero Crew N.M.
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    Talk about trail IDIOTS

    Why even argue with this guy( dulesporter) . He is an idiot that will never understand. He will think that motos have the right so screwup any trails they want. If he does also ride a mtn bike as he says he does he would know and understand where we are comming from. So I think thats crap to. I think he just gets a kick out of confronting us. Ignore the IDIOT.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9
    Dude. The bottom line is that....regardless of who built them.... motorcycles DESTROY trails for everyone else that uses them. What dont you get about that?. Now assuming motoriders built them a few decades ago (who the hell really knows), you all abandoned them and others who actually use the trails adopted them. Do you expect those who have maintained them all this time (since you all left and did nothing to help... you were to busy destroying Cedro I suppose) to bend over and take it in the a$$ now that you want to come back? You lost your claim years ago.

    Cedro WAS nice until dirt bikes tore it up. Now it will never be the same. Not in 100 years. We cannot allow this to happen to Otero too.

    There are 4 other disciplines (hikers, bikers, horse's, trail runners) that use these trails that are non-destructive. And yours (motos) is the ONLY one that completely ruins it for everyone else.

    It's 4 to 1 bro. In this instance the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the very few.

    On this subject. There is NO arguement. Lurk more.

    this is the most absurd thing I've ever heard....4 wheelers are the culprit, lets keep this discussion on a mature level....otherwise we diminish the intelligence level here...I ride a mountain bike and dirt bike and think we all need to get along....don't even get me started on the Jemez.

  22. #22
    Bandolero
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    Pets.com

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52
    Why even argue with this guy( dulesporter) . He is an idiot that will never understand. He will think that motos have the right so screwup any trails they want. If he does also ride a mtn bike as he says he does he would know and understand where we are comming from. So I think thats crap to. I think he just gets a kick out of confronting us. Ignore the IDIOT.
    I'm going to make the call that Dullsporter is a sockpuppet of a regular MTBR-NM forum poster.
    See the trails, be one with FOO-MTB.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  23. #23
    7MGTE
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9
    There are 4 other disciplines (hikers, bikers, horse's, trail runners) that use these trails that are non-destructive.
    Yeah horses do not do damage I love riding up a trail after a good rain and lots of horses have just messed it all up. They may not do as much damage as motos but they do plenty of damage.

  24. #24
    Genius
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    Quote Originally Posted by supramk388
    Yeah horses do not do damage I love riding up a trail after a good rain and lots of horses have just messed it all up. They may not do as much damage as motos but they do plenty of damage.
    After a rain NOBODY should be on the trails. After a rain EVERYONE does damage.

    Let me repeat myself.

    After a rain NOBODY should be on the trails. After a rain EVERYONE does damage.

  25. #25
    Bandolero Crew N.M.
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    Very good call, Nota. I think there might be more than one.

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