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  1. #151
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    Thanks for the info guys much appreciated

  2. #152
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    Getting that tingly feeling. We were riding Otero this time last year.

  3. #153
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    Just have to keep telling myself that this is a good thing. If they only close the trails for 4th of July weekend that would be fantastic.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by warimono View Post
    Just have to keep telling myself that this is a good thing. If they only close the trails for 4th of July weekend that would be fantastic.
    It's been a much better winter for snow this year. Last year was kind of sad up here. With some spring rains as predicted. Hopefully we'll get to ride all summer up here. Pretty windy today. That should help clear up some of the remaining mud
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  5. #155
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    Not sure Otero is quite ready. There are still a few mud patches and the trail is 100' wide in spots with mud ride arounds. Not to mention the places where there used to be turns. Somebody decided that Otero was to twisty for their taste so they cut most of the corners. WTF! If you can't ride the turns then stick to the bosque. It's so dumbed down its not even fun. There are plenty of new jumps for some reason. I don't get it...

  6. #156
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    No turns eh? Sounds like some wanton Stavafication going on.
    sweet sweet trails

  7. #157
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    I hiked Otero/Tio/West Ridge/Tunero yesterday with my dog. I didn't think it looked too bad. There are definitely a lot of new "cheater" lines around rock gardens and stuff, but there are some new features that look pretty sweet too. The more popular trails are going to evolve with more traffic, and that's just how it is. There are another 50 miles of trails that no one ever rides.

    I'll admit that I blocked off a few of the cheater lines out of frustration. Then I got home and thought about it more, and realized that the people who ride the cheater lines are gonna be pissed now, and might do something to our cool features. I won't do that again, and I apologize.

    A friend of mine made a good point: add what you want to the trails, but don't take away. I think that makes sense. If people want to add easier lines around rock gardens, let 'em. They're just doing themselves a disservice, and their skills will never improve. Meanwhile, (with the Forest Service's blessing, of course) we can build new stuff that challenges us and improves our skill.

  8. #158
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    There are substantial changes every day right now. Just got back from Otero- 3 Bottles ride. Otero was great. Only a couple of muddy areas left. Right at the junction of Tunnel and Otero, and a little higher up Otero.3 Bottles was much better than I expected. Pretty big snow drift still at sub rock. The rest of three bottles is gtg. I didn't do Tunnel but heard from another rider that said only a little wet area near the top of Tunnel where the sun never hits. Time to Hit That $h!t.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmtim View Post
    Not sure Otero is quite ready. There are still a few mud patches and the trail is 100' wide in spots with mud ride arounds. Not to mention the places where there used to be turns. Somebody decided that Otero was to twisty for their taste so they cut most of the corners. WTF! If you can't ride the turns then stick to the bosque. It's so dumbed down its not even fun. There are plenty of new jumps for some reason. I don't get it...
    On the contrary, now is the perfect time for scads of people to hit the trail, if only to bed in and smooth the ruts created when people shouldn't have been riding. Conditions were great today, with only one real puddle (which I witnessed several people ride around)...

    While pedaling up, I was saddened to see that a nice jump had been "dumbed down" (sabotaged/destroyed) . If you cant jump things, why not just leave them be so more skilled riders can still enjoy them...

    To my surprise, by the time I made my back down someone had repaired it - very nice! Noticed a number of little jumps here and there on the down. Really added some fun on the way out..

    Totally agree about not dumbing things down!
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  10. #160
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    By the way, I would bet a majority of the widening was caused by hikers... I saw plenty of tire tracks going through the centers of trails, and not one footprint. Did see some horse tracks too...
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  11. #161
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    Stravers..
    I too dont understand why people are tearing out stuff, especially "up" there.
    Although I did get a chuckle out of one particular one that was torn out over and over until the builder finally fixed it :roflopter:

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    By the way, I would bet a majority of the widening was caused by hikers... I saw plenty of tire tracks going through the centers of trails, and not one footprint. Did see some horse tracks too...
    I kinda doubt the hikers were cutting out trees when avoiding the mud.
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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    On the contrary, now is the perfect time for scads of people to hit the trail, if only to bed in and smooth the ruts created when people shouldn't have been riding. Conditions were great today, with only one real puddle (which I witnessed several people ride around)...

    While pedaling up, I was saddened to see that a nice jump had been "dumbed down" (sabotaged/destroyed) . If you cant jump things, why not just leave them be so more skilled riders can still enjoy them...

    To my surprise, by the time I made my back down someone had repaired it - very nice! Noticed a number of little jumps here and there on the down. Really added some fun on the way out..

    Totally agree about not dumbing things down!
    The problem is not that there are jumps. The problem is that we already have a delicate relationship with the Forest Service and building up features without the proper buy-in is not helping anyone. Maybe the 3B adoption didn't go as some people expected, the bigger picture is that the Forest Service worked with the users of the trails and helped build an official trail with technical features. For a first of it's kind trail build I think we got pretty lucky, and if we want to keep progressing our trail options we should respect that the land is managed by the Forest Service for EVERYONE. We can't go around cutting down trees, short-cutting corners and building jumps. That is self-serving and narrow minded, and regardless of how long it took the person to build said features that is not justification for destroying a prospering relationship with the FS.

    I am actually relieved to see that is has bothered so many trail users. Yes we all want more features, we want trails that challenge us. But it is nice to see that not everyone thinks we live in the Wild West and can take whatever we want. It is painfully obvious who is responsible for the work, and the irony is that he fashions himself as a trail advocate.
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  14. #164
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    We must be thinking of two different areas. One managed by the FS, the other is not. I havent been up there yet this year..

  15. #165
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    Owl, we were speaking about Otero proper, not any offshoots or spurs... It is (or was?) obvious when you see it.

    Snarkyness aside... My point was really more about dumbing down things in general rather than building.

    But I agree, cutting of trees when they're not blocking an established line is going a bit too far. In the general sense of right and wrong, yeah, that step-down to step-up and some of the other thing were no-no's. Some of the Strava corner-cutting was happening last season, but I was really surprised to see how obvious it became in just a few days of riding (I'd actually like to see MORE turns...)

    There's a strange grey area that (some) local riders seem to operate under; doesn't make rogue building "right", but I see riders playing both sides of the fence (I'm not including or excluding myself!) when we should all be flying the same flag. I hope that this particular occurrence has not harmed any FS relations, maybe it will bring more riders together for the common cause, rather than cause division.

    Can't argue 3Bs, I don't know what specific expectations were not met, but it's a great start and can only hope its the beginning. Looking forward to working on the extension, the more people involved in that, the less wild-west type building we'll see.
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  16. #166
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    Definitely some grey areas riding a bike in NM, and I am aware that I am also guilty of riding on both sides of the fence.

    Yes I want to ride challenging trails, and have features that scare me. And yes I enjoy riding those features both in the Foothills and in the Manzanos. But I think it is completely selfish to designate a well traveled trail as my own personal skills park and build whatever jump meets my desire, cut out any tree that interrupts my sweet 1ft kicker, and straight line that pesky turn that slows down my brap. All of this was accomplished by one self involved person with no desire to help anyone but themselves. The guy even excuses himself by saying "it was just an experiment."

    We are on the same page about not dumbing down trail options, and there is a lot of potential for features on our local trails. But insulting the FS and taunting them will not result in more features.
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  17. #167
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    Kerry and crew were up there today with shovels. Looks like those features are going away.
    Kerry did talk a bit about the 3Bs extension and he will shoot an email out soon. yay!!
    Yea Jerry, quite obvious after getting up there. The mud at tunero connector is horrible!! other than that it packed in my bald tires up top

  18. #168
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    Not my intention to call any one person out, just a recognition of user groups... 😆

    Didn't hear the "experiment" line. Thats an interesting way to put it.
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  19. #169
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    Perhaps I'm more of a gray area rider/proponent than most... but I'll hold on to the rest of that opinion until I see you over a beer or whatever.

    Either way, we're probably mostly on the same page, except I tend to get caught in the moment from time to time, and to be honest - the trail "experiment" just happened to tickle me (hey I used to run around and paint on walls). That's all. Personally, I understand the implications, and hope this did't harm current opportunities.
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  20. #170
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    I'll bring the beer Jazzard
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  21. #171
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    Wow, sorry to hear about this. I think most riders operate on both sides of the fence, but there are times when you have to think about the big picture and know where your bread is buttered. Adding real obvious features by cutting trees on a super popular trail is not a good idea. The new 3B stuff is great and more is coming thanks to working through the proper channels and being patient. Build features in the back 40 somewhere or do it in an established technical area (like we have at La Tierra). You guys are lucky to have Kerry and a FS district that is willing to work on tech stuff. I'm getting a relationship established in SF for tech trails, it takes a lot of time.

    On another note, just because corners are cut doesn't mean someone was doing it for a Strava time. People have always cut corners, especially when there is mud. Then it dies down when things dry out. I think placing branches on alternate lines is a great idea when there is no technical feature to avoid. Personally I think Strava is one of the best things to happen to MTB, for me, but cutting corners for a time is only cheating yourself. How does one feel good about that? Off my slippery Strava box.

    Great interview here discussing cheater lines:
    THE JARED GRAVES INTERVIEW - Mountain Biking Pictures - Vital MTB
    nix that, livin la vida bandos is a good idea when you're on a Mojo HD

    "babies don't drink coors" - del norte

  22. #172
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    Well put CC.

    The corners being cut (at least the ones I'm speaking of) were being cut in non-muddy conditions - at least last season. However, I only jest when calling out Strava peeeps, as I use it to. I just find the caricature amusing, no harm intended - and I love corners. Its where races are won (not that I'd personally know)

    That's a cool interview, btw...
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  23. #173
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    Ask herbold about cutting lines. Blaming stuff on strava is so easy! Bad relations with hikers? Its pov'ers and stravers

  24. #174
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    Hopefully no more old growth vanilla pines will be cut down for someone's log ride, (ehhem cough, cough).

  25. #175
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    Wasn't 3 Bottles once a rogue trail? Then it became legitimate? Sometimes it takes people stepping outside the bounds of legality to further the development of trails technically speaking. I wonder if 3 Bottles had never been built originally would the legitimate building of technical trails ever of happened (in Otero)? Just a thought. I know I don't know all that has transpired down there between all you "locals".

  26. #176
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    I think the comparison is: building a new trail on uncharted waters/
    Compared to hiking pallets up to the foothills to make rollers.

    Off topic but Jerry that pic of yours overlooking Durango from like 2012 has been my background all winter.
    Awesome shot!
    Otero conditions?-jerry-hazzard-durango.jpg

  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSweetleaf View Post
    Wasn't 3 Bottles once a rogue trail? Then it became legitimate? ...
    Same with Tio Juanito. Total bootleg, and for several years it was, in its original form, the only "legal" way down off the Ridge into Otero before it was finally legitimized and modernized by the FS.

    The big picture is that the FS rightfully adheres to a conservative assessment as to what is, and isn't, a worthwhile addition to the trail system. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got the wild-west, bad-boy, in-yer-face approach that gets so far out of hand that it even alienates riders with common interests, or so I gather from this thread.

    Some people just can't get over themselves sufficiently to appreciate how sensitive the whole issue of Otero is, and how there is so much goodness out there that's not supposed to be available to us, but somehow is.

    You can always count on peer pressure to clarify the distinction between civil disobedience and juvenile delinquency, and if the mtb community functioned like the Mafia, I get the feeling a few would get stuffed into the trunk of car just for making life difficult for the rest.

  28. #178
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    prosperity
    Quote Originally Posted by andradab View Post
    Well now, I'm in quite a pickle here aren't I? Defending any of these accusations one only risks digging the hole deeper than it is. But, I digress...

    I will say this, and lucky are the few who actually get to read it, almost everyone in here is reacting in their own best interest. That is not a bad thing mind you, but there are a couple who are getting their jollies by retaliating. I suspect it has been a long time coming, and they are really getting their munies worth. Then there are a few who are quite entertained by the idea that the big rats have one of the smaller rats cornered, and are chumming the proverbial taste buds. To really solve this problem, a neutral observer only has to know who is who, and who is saying what, and for what ends. If it is a general concern for progress within the community, then I personally don't see how many of these comments are in any way a contribution. I suspect much has been exaggerated, and if one were to ride Otero tomorrow for the first time since last fall, they probably would not notice anything different. It's still one of the funnest rides around.

    Respect to the people who have entered (and are reading) this discussion with a genuine motivation to bring about a more cohesive community, I hope you will continue your efforts when there are opportunities to provide your support through trail development/maintenance, and/or continued efforts towards more access.

    For those of you who want to continue to pile on in the absence of your "enemy," keep on chasing your tails. You are Emperors without clothes.

    To rest of you, who I will assume to be unwitting victims of trail abuse and slanderous posts, the issue of the jump in question has been addressed. It's very likely that it never even existed, except for a few pictures obtainable through the Forest Service by way of a FOIA request. As for the tree referenced in palerider's post; that poor old growth vanilla pine had a much bigger adversary that me. And the other tree? I think that one grabbed one too many handlebars. It was on borrowed time, and you really shouldn't be trespassing anyway.

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    I think the comparison is: building a new trail on uncharted waters/
    Compared to hiking pallets up to the foothills to make rollers.

    Off topic but Jerry that pic of yours overlooking Durango from like 2012 has been my background all winter.
    Awesome shot!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks! Glad you enjoy, it's one of my faves from the time I lived there. Ironically, it was shot from the top of a bootleg trail (rumor is that Missy Giove and her contemporaries used to practice there back in the day) *edit - it was a foot hiking trail, at times frequented by downhillers.
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  30. #180
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    ya I know exactly where that shot is and talked to a few locals about a trail up there. Looks gnarly, I bet the Missle used to bomb it.

  31. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by andradab View Post
    I can't help it.

    I've got a soft spot for ratas and cockroaches. It's my cross to bear. My poor wife thinks it's disgusting.
    I dont even know what that means. Youre not married.
    I assume you are saying I snitched on you. Im ok with you thinking that

  32. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by andradab View Post
    Well now, I'm in quite a pickle here aren't I? Defending any of these accusations one only risks digging the hole deeper than it is. But, I digress...

    I will say this, and lucky are the few who actually get to read it, almost everyone in here is reacting in their own best interest. That is not a bad thing mind you, but there are a couple who are getting their jollies by retaliating. I suspect it has been a long time coming, and they are really getting their munies worth. Then there are a few who are quite entertained by the idea that the big rats have one of the smaller rats cornered, and are chumming the proverbial taste buds. To really solve this problem, a neutral observer only has to know who is who, and who is saying what, and for what ends. If it is a general concern for progress within the community, then I personally don't see how many of these comments are in any way a contribution. I suspect much has been exaggerated, and if one were to ride Otero tomorrow for the first time since last fall, they probably would not notice anything different. It's still one of the funnest rides around.

    Respect to the people who have entered (and are reading) this discussion with a genuine motivation to bring about a more cohesive community, I hope you will continue your efforts when there are opportunities to provide your support through trail development/maintenance, and/or continued efforts towards more access.

    For those of you who want to continue to pile on in the absence of your "enemy," keep on chasing your tails. You are Emperors without clothes.

    To rest of you, who I will assume to be unwitting victims of trail abuse and slanderous posts, the issue of the jump in question has been addressed. It's very likely that it never even existed, except for a few pictures obtainable through the Forest Service by way of a FOIA request. As for the tree referenced in palerider's post; that poor old growth vanilla pine had a much bigger adversary that me. And the other tree? I think that one grabbed one too many handlebars. It was on borrowed time, and you really shouldn't be trespassing anyway.
    In no way does your post even resemble the use of basic human logic, let alone an argument for your actions. I'm not jumping on any bandwagon here. As a matter of fact, I gave you multiple chances to prove that you are a worthwhile person to ride with, despite being forewarned by others. Yet, you continued to prove your worth by insulting my friends (in their absence) and bringing an air of negativity to any ride you were a part of. How you continue to find a handful of unassuming fellas to ride with is purely befuddling.

    You are a spiteful individual, that thrives on past hatred--refusing to let go of the past and how you've been ever-so wronged. Your word-play and semantics are only amusing to you and frustrating to others. You speak of a "cohesive community", yet with whom did you consult with when you decided to reroute trails and cut down trees in Otero? This is, of course, a rhetorical question. It does not require your response. This post does not require your response. I realize that we are all just giving in to your little game here. I have wasted hours of precious breath trying to find a common ground, but you are absolutely unwavering on your stance. We've just continued to fuel your fire with each response. This will be my last post regarding you and your antics.

    One last thing: your metaphor is slightly off. It is not the big rats (us) cornering the little rat (you). No, it is a b$#@* in heat parading its tail around, driving all the neighborhood dogs crazy (and enjoying the hell out of it)...and no one gets any rest until she's safely in the pound.

    Peace.

    More relevant to the thread, Otero is perfect now with only a few muddy spots (biggest being at the Tunnero and Otero intersect). The frost-heave is nicely packed down now, and the trails are fast again.

  33. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoLions View Post
    More relevant to the thread, Otero is perfect now with only a few muddy spots (biggest being at the Tunnero and Otero intersect). The frost-heave is nicely packed down now, and the trails are fast again.
    Thanks for the trail update.

    My $0.02 on additional trails.
    I just want to ride, so I have concern that illegal trails and features could put that in jeopardy. I think that is a legitimate concern.

    I also believe (don't know to be fact) that sometimes illegal trails become legal. That adds to my enjoyment, so I may or may not choose to ride those questionable trails, I surely don't post about them in public until they become official trails. I think this helps reduce the jeopardy I mentioned above.

    While I don't have the love of rock gardens as many posters on this site, I see them as a challenge, and sanitizing them sucks. Therefore, having a minor line around those sections is better than trying to clean them up. Also, secondary paths can sometimes provide opportunities to get around another rider going the opposite direction, and that's not a bad thing. My only concern at that point is if the work around is a sustainable trail, and is the original path still in tact.

    Finally a big thank you goes out to all who work trail days, or just fix things that need to be fixed.

  34. #184
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    Well. It looks like I missed the dry days of otero. Itsa rainin now. I had my chance yesterday but just couldn't muster a ride after 4 days in Moab. Rats. Or roaches. Whatever.
    A.K.A. The Blood Orange.

  35. #185
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    you still rocking that AM hardtail Pat?
    did you ever get to 100 pushups? I didnt

  36. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    you still rocking that AM hardtail Pat?
    did you ever get to 100 pushups? I didnt
    1) YYyyyyuuuuUUUP! Still loving my HT although I didn't take it to moab this time. Outerbike supplied the bikes.
    2) Nnnoooooope! I maxed out at 77 consecutive. Those last few workouts are friggin TOUGH. I never could complete em.
    A.K.A. The Blood Orange.

  37. #187
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    Were you part of that NM caravan up there? I saw the email. how was it? did you ride a $8k bike you have to have?

  38. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl View Post
    Were you part of that NM caravan up there? I saw the email. how was it? did you ride a $8k bike you have to have?
    Outerbike is fun. This was our second trip. I didn't fall in love with anything I can't afford but I did ride a Polygon Colossus and was pretty impressed with it. $1700 frame only. I just go for the schwag and the shuttles. And the food.
    A.K.A. The Blood Orange.

  39. #189
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    Man Pat, Go ahead and rub in 4 days at Moab. I would. Were going there near the end of April.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  40. #190
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    Pretty steady rain in the Otero area right now
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  41. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson View Post
    The big picture is that the FS rightfully adheres to a conservative assessment as to what is, and isn't, a worthwhile addition to the trail system. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got the wild-west, bad-boy, in-yer-face approach that gets so far out of hand that it even alienates riders with common interests, or so I gather from this thread.

    Some people just can't get over themselves sufficiently to appreciate how sensitive the whole issue of Otero is, and how there is so much goodness out there that's not supposed to be available to us, but somehow is.

    You can always count on peer pressure to clarify the distinction between civil disobedience and juvenile delinquency, and if the mtb community functioned like the Mafia, I get the feeling a few would get stuffed into the trunk of car just for making life difficult for the rest.
    WOW!!! I just had to show up and say how awesome this quote was!!! Way to go Garson!

    And what's with the Bando's beating up on Bry? Has there been a falling out with Papa? Man, I've missed all the winter episodes of "How the Trail Turns".

    Damn!!!
    Dug-Da-Goat

    Something changes at 12,000'
    ...so welcome to the Odyssey!

    Building your trails at FooMTB

  42. #192
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    And Now back to trail conditions.
    Not much in the way of drying out today. Kind of just staying wet and gloomy up here. Think I'll pass on Otero tomorrow
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  43. #193
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    Thanks for the timely updates, Steve.

  44. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1lluminaughty View Post
    How's tomorrow looking?
    There's probably some mud here and there. But it's looks pretty good. I'm going to give it a try. I saw quite a few cars at Tunnel PL today. Perhaps someone else has better info.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  45. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    There's probably some mud here and there. But it's looks pretty good. I'm going to give it a try. I saw quite a few cars at Tunnel PL today. Perhaps someone else has better info.
    Yeah I rode there (Otero/Cedro) last weekend and it was a bit muddy but ridable. Can't be any worse then it was last Sunday right? There was the moisture we got up here in Santa Fe but that was mostly up on the mountain. Did you guys get that moisture down in Tijeras? Want to come ride there tomorrow.

  46. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSweetleaf View Post
    Yeah I rode there (Otero/Cedro) last weekend and it was a bit muddy but ridable. Can't be any worse then it was last Sunday right? There was the moisture we got up here in Santa Fe but that was mostly up on the mountain. Did you guys get that moisture down in Tijeras? Want to come ride there tomorrow.
    Hard to say. We got 0.82" in Edgewood, and it stayed muddy here all day with fairly cool temps and some clouds. I expect a decent amount of mud is still out in Cedro/Otero.

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  48. #198
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    In case anybody was wondering about the other side of the street, Cedro(Chami, delberts, coyote) was perfect. Hit dat ****.

  49. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by warimono View Post
    In case anybody was wondering about the other side of the street, Cedro(Chami, delberts, coyote) was perfect. Hit dat ****.
    Yep! Hero dirt every where. Otero, Three Bottles were all good as well.
    Sent on my Droid while hitting that $h!t

  50. #200
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    I miss douchenozzle 123...
    His avatar was comedy gold.
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    Santa Cruz 5010 V2

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