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  1. #1
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    Off Topic: Mexican Gray Wolves in Sandias/Manzanos?

    I always love these discussions when I read them in other forums from people in Iowa and other places who swear they saw a wolf. they always start off like, "so there I was, looking out my window" or "...driving along" and they describe someone's collie or a coyote.

    OK, so there I was, nearly home, in about the same area where I always see other wildlife. I've seen a mama bear and cubs, I've seen turkeys, deer, etc. -- a few miles east of the "top"of North 14 off Ridge Rd and eastward. There are a series of open spaces and large multi-acre properties that go from Frost Rd down south to Gutierrez Open Space, which is then a short skip under I-40 to the NF east of Tijeras. You all know what I'm talking about.

    Anyway, so there I was, about three weeks ago, and about 50 feet ahead of my car, two mottled tan and gray canines go running across the road - I hit my brakes because I was afraid I might hit one. One had a flash of orange around its neck - couldn't see the other because it was a little behind and obscured by the one with the collar. I thought, "wow, those were big coyotes." my dog is about 22" at the shoulder. He's a lab mix and weighs about 60lbs. These two animals were at least as large, with bushy tails and sharp features. As I finished my drive home (about 1/4 mile more), I thought, no way, they were too big for the coyotes around here, which are smaller than my dog...must have been someone's dogs, especially considering one may have had a collar.

    Last week, I happen to be talking to a colleague who lives in the same general area, but where residences butt against one of the open spaces. She swears she's seen two Mexican Gray wolves, one with an orange tracking collar with a box on it, hanging out in the area. She has two large dogs (>80lbs each) and says they're as big in size (if not weight) as her dogs, which are much bigger than the local coyotes. I said, maybe they're someone's huskies who have escaped someone's invisible fence, and she was skeptical because they didn't bark at her dogs like other dogs would (and like her dogs were barking at them)...they just kind of stared and then gave her property a wide berth and disappeared into the trees.

    So okay...Mexican Grays in the area? I personally think that would be awesome. It would be pretty easy for wildife to link the mountain chains and wildlife refuges along the Rio Grande to get up to the Sangres....

    Discuss.

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    I got nothing... But interesting story. I always see them cover them on the local news where they are down south and them coming across boarder. Just the other night i was wondering if ever they'd migrate up this far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I got nothing... But interesting story. I always see them cover them on the local news where they are down south and them coming across boarder. Just the other night i was wondering if ever they'd migrate up this far.
    From what the Internet tells me (so it must be true), wolves can make long-distance trips fairly quickly. In 2004 a wolf was killed by a car on I-70 on the east side of the Continental Divide...it was from Yellowstone, and packs can occasionally expand their range to up to 1,000 square miles if they're following a migrating herd or establishing new territory, so I believe it's possible. Some recent sightings in Rocky Mountain NP have been deemed "credible".

  4. #4
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    Not too cool for those of us who bikepack and spend the night in them woods....
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9 View Post
    Not too cool for those of us who bikepack and spend the night in them woods....
    I'd be more concerned about big kittehs and bear.

  6. #6
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    Agreed. But this is just one more predator to concern myself with.
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    This sounds like some black ops stuff is going on at the air force base. The wolves are not supposed to be out of the Gila, so if they are captured out there I am sure they will be disavowed. Maybe they are rogue agents escaped from their pens at Sevilleta wildlife refuge.

    Seriously, I think if they are wolves they will be captured by fish and game if possible. Since the forest service up there is on this listserve, they are probably already aware of it.

    I would not be worried about camping out in wolf country. I have been doing it for years and I am no worse off for it and have never seen or heard a wolf. I think mountain lions are a bigger threat and even that is remote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilarider View Post
    This sounds like some black ops stuff is going on at the air force base. The wolves are not supposed to be out of the Gila, so if they are captured out there I am sure they will be disavowed. Maybe they are rogue agents escaped from their pens at Sevilleta wildlife refuge.

    Seriously, I think if they are wolves they will be captured by fish and game if possible. Since the forest service up there is on this listserve, they are probably already aware of it.
    The orange thing *could* have been a laser...since sharks can't survive in the Rio Grande (or can they...hmmm....)

    Anyway, The Internet™ says All of New Mexico east of the Gila and between I-10 and I-40 is considered a "recovery area", so why wouldn't they let them be?

    I would think, however, that there's not going to be a parade or big announcement or anything because the ranchers just east in Moriarty and north of the county line are probably not going to be too excited about it.

    And two wolves does not a recovery make -- they may not be a breeding pair, in which case they're lone wolves and will probably die without pups or go back where they came from.

    If in fact they're here, which I'm not saying they are, I'm just sayin'. That's all. I don't want to call skerry out, but I'm sure if he had something to say he would have said it.

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    totally possible....in the late 70s when wolves were extinct in the gila I was camping way off trail by a water hole and had a similar experience. There were 4 of them. Too big for coyotes and definitely didn't act like dogs. We checked each other out for about 2 minutes then they trotted off. A memorable experience that I won't forget.

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    The internet told me that the wolves are still restricted in new mexico to the area of the Gila and into Arizona. The public comment period is still open on expanding the area across the width of new mexico and arizona. That's why I said I don't think the wolves are authorized up there and would be caught, if possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilarider View Post
    The internet told me that the wolves are still restricted in new mexico to the area of the Gila and into Arizona. The public comment period is still open on expanding the area across the width of new mexico and arizona. That's why I said I don't think the wolves are authorized up there and would be caught, if possible.
    Ah, good point. Well, if they're here I hope a) they don't get shot by a rancher or hit by a car, and b) USFWS doesn't catch them before the change is implemented....

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    Decided to post a reply here because seems things need some clearing up. There are no wolves in the sandia/monzano mountains. What you saw was probably radio collared coyotes or feral dogs, i.e. German shepherds, husky's, wolf hybrids, coyote mix and other crosses,etc. You would be amazed at how close certain breeds resemble wolves especially when briefly observed. There haven't been wolves in central N.M. in 100+ years. As of August there are only 54 wolves in the recovery program, that includes N.M. and AZ. ALL of them are monitored. They are also Mexican grey wolves and they only get up to about 60-80lbs which is smaller than most of the dogs mentioned above and similar in size to coyotes. As for camping in wolf country there is only 1 recorded death in the entire united states and the odds of you seeing a wolf in the wild are very, very, VERY slim. Unless you know where to look and how. Wolves in general will hear or smell you way before you see them and they typically (99%) of the time run away from humans its their nature.
    As stated above as cool as it would be I hate to break the news but they 100% are not wolves from the recovery program and likely are coyote or feral dogs of some variation, or even just someone's lost pets.
    Although if interested there are petitions and volunteer help/symposiums to help the wolf recovery programs that you can look into.

    Source: Graduate student in Animal/predator behavior and wildlife conservation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwolf View Post
    Decided to post a reply here because seems things need some clearing up. There are no wolves in the sandia/monzano mountains. What you saw was probably radio collared coyotes or feral dogs, i.e. German shepherds, husky's, wolf hybrids, coyote mix and other crosses,etc. You would be amazed at how close certain breeds resemble wolves especially when briefly observed. There haven't been wolves in central N.M. in 100+ years. As of August there are only 54 wolves in the recovery program, that includes N.M. and AZ. ALL of them are monitored. They are also Mexican grey wolves and they only get up to about 60-80lbs which is smaller than most of the dogs mentioned above and similar in size to coyotes. As for camping in wolf country there is only 1 recorded death in the entire united states and the odds of you seeing a wolf in the wild are very, very, VERY slim. Unless you know where to look and how. Wolves in general will hear or smell you way before you see them and they typically (99%) of the time run away from humans its their nature.
    As stated above as cool as it would be I hate to break the news but they 100% are not wolves from the recovery program and likely are coyote or feral dogs of some variation.
    Although if interested there are petitions and volunteer help/symposiums to help the wolf recovery programs that you can look into.

    Source: Graduate student in Animal/predator behavior and wildlife conservation.

    Buzz kill!!! Oh well.

    How about some other postings/threads of strange things seen in our local trails. I know the other boards has this but this is specific to NM.

    Whatever happened to that Mountain Lion this one dude was seeing on the near entrance of Otero? Any more sightings?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwolf View Post
    Decided to post a reply here because seems things need some clearing up. There are no wolves in the sandia/monzano mountains. What you saw was probably radio collared coyotes or feral dogs, i.e. German shepherds, husky's, wolf hybrids, coyote mix and other crosses,etc. You would be amazed at how close certain breeds resemble wolves especially when briefly observed. There haven't been wolves in central N.M. in 100+ years. As of August there are only 54 wolves in the recovery program, that includes N.M. and AZ. ALL of them are monitored. They are also Mexican grey wolves and they only get up to about 60-80lbs which is smaller than most of the dogs mentioned above and similar in size to coyotes. As for camping in wolf country there is only 1 recorded death in the entire united states and the odds of you seeing a wolf in the wild are very, very, VERY slim. Unless you know where to look and how. Wolves in general will hear or smell you way before you see them and they typically (99%) of the time run away from humans its their nature.
    As stated above as cool as it would be I hate to break the news but they 100% are not wolves from the recovery program and likely are coyote or feral dogs of some variation, or even just someone's lost pets.
    Although if interested there are petitions and volunteer help/symposiums to help the wolf recovery programs that you can look into.

    Source: Graduate student in Animal/predator behavior and wildlife conservation.
    Cool, thanks. Definitely NOT German shepherds...I'm very familiar with them. Same with my colleague who had a longer look at what she saw. Maybe they were Huskies. The coyotes here are small...these were clearly bigger. There was one supposed wolf hybrid pair that went feral (or were relesased) from their owners about 15 miles south in one of the land grants a couple years ago, so maybe they're still wandering around out there.

    How often do they track the packs in the Gila and Mogollon Rim? What tracking programs are going on in Mexico? I can't imagine there's a whole lot of conservation effort going on south of the border in the drug smuggling corridors, and I know they cross the border from time to time (the wolves, that is).

    But hey, I figured someone would rain on my parade...and surprised it took this long.

    (BTW...the wolf that was killed by a car on I-70 in Colorado in 2004 had a tracking collar, and traveled all the way from Southwest Montana between January and June...and they thought they had them all accounted for too. Just sayin'.)

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    the wolves are tracked in a variety of ways and depending on the schedule are monitored typically once a week as the numbers are far lower than expected at this point and recovery is crucial. Although with new proposal of increasing protected land to speed up recovery you may hear of them further north in eastern NM and AZ after few years. That would change of course once population has increased. Before recovery efforts there was estimated only about 300 in captivity and none in the wild. As for Mexico the wolves are extinct. None are known to exist in the wild south of the border. As to what is crossing there has been increased activity of jaguars returning to the U.S. 3 have been spotted in AZ 1 was a male. They now have protected habitat in AZ and Southern NM, but of course chances of seeing one of them in the wild are less than being struck by lightning (actual fact lol). So if you see one go grab a lottery ticket asap ;-).
    Also as for the Colorado wolf the collar had actually stopped working in Wyoming (last time it was recorded) and there were efforts to find it. There are protected wolves in Colorado though so the female was guessed to have been trying to locate new home territory (rare for females) but wolves have been known to travel 500 miles (longest tracked so far) to establish new home. They only travel 12-25 sq miles a day when looking for new territory.

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    Jaguars were known to have previously lived as far north as borders of NM/CO and AZ/UT before being eradicated in the U.S. in late 1800's early 1900's. Also I was corrected today at school. I previously said there was only 1 recorded death from wolves, actually there are none. There have been attacks (Alaska/Canada) but none have been fatal. Funny how we eradicated them to almost extinction though, as with other predators.

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    Last Mexican Grizzly Bear (smaller than its cousins in the north) was killed in the forties in Silver City and last known was killed in Chihuahua Mexico in 1962 I believe. Although listed as extinct there are some who have been hearing of sightings in the San Juan's (northern NM and Southern CO) and Scientists have gone and looked but with no luck and evidence suggests they are indeed extinct.

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    Keep your eyes open though because you never know what can happen!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwolf View Post
    As to what is crossing there has been increased activity of jaguars returning to the U.S. 3 have been spotted in AZ 1 was a male. They now have protected habitat in AZ and Southern NM, but of course chances of seeing one of them in the wild are less than being struck by lightning (actual fact lol). So if you see one go grab a lottery ticket asap ;-).
    ...If I see a Jaguar, that probably means it's seen me first and I'm probably closer than I want to be!

    Great info, thanks! Here's hoping my grandkids get to hear the howl of a wolf in the CO and NM backcountry!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwolf View Post
    I previously said there was only 1 recorded death from wolves, actually there are none. There have been attacks (Alaska/Canada) but none have been fatal. Funny how we eradicated them to almost extinction though, as with other predators.
    Yeah...you hunt me, I kill you and make a necklace from your teeth. You hunt my food that I spend blood and sweat raising, I wipe you out and forget you. We humans are funny like that....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9 View Post
    Not too cool for those of us who bikepack and spend the night in them woods....
    Why? They don't normally attack humans. I live and ride in wolf country, nothing to be afeared of...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Why? They don't normally attack humans. I live and ride in wolf country, nothing to be afeared of...
    Dude, I psych myself out until I finally pass out from the sheer exhaustion of paranoia. Every cracking stick or russel from the bushes has me tweeking. Just picture a man, in the dark woods at night, with a bell and bear spray in hand ready for battle with mother natures fiercest creatures.... but alas, it usually turns out to be a just deer or even a mouse from time to time.
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    No wolves in that area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwolf View Post
    Last Mexican Grizzly Bear (smaller than its cousins in the north) was killed in the forties in Silver City and last known was killed in Chihuahua Mexico in 1962 I believe. Although listed as extinct there are some who have been hearing of sightings in the San Juan's (northern NM and Southern CO) and Scientists have gone and looked but with no luck and evidence suggests they are indeed extinct.
    I believe it was actually in '31 outside of Cliff, about 30 miles NW of Silver.

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    I am always happy to see wild animals of any type. I've seen everything from a litter of baby skunks (cute enough that they should be unlawful), to bobcats and cougar while riding. Even though an encounter with the latter freaked me out and made me seriously wonder about my place in the food chain, I always cringe at suggestions by some people about killing animals of any type, or being fearful of them.

    The way the world is these days, if I meet my maker as a result of being eaten by a wild animal, then I think I would consider it an honor. There are so many ways to go, and most of them are stupid—the most stupid being at the hands of another human being. Man is the worst animal of all, and if you are going to be fearful of anything out on the trail, it's probably best to be afraid of the monster that walks on two legs.

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    I know alot of people want to get all warm and fuzzy about wolves but does it bother anyone that millions of taxpayer dollars has been wasted on a disastrous failure of a reintroduction effort?

    Personally I feel that time and money would have been much more useful and beneficial improving habitat for the wildlife that's already there. Not to mention that the grey wolves have been documented in Colorado without any help from usfws by the way. If those wolves make it as far as the Gila they will annihilate the lobos. Then it was all for not anyways. To me it just seems asinine to keep pumping money into this.

    Just my opinion but its time to cut the welfare off on this let those wolves sink or swim on their own
    .

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    I think I saw some wolves in the Zuni Mountains. They were bigger and stockier and darker gray than coyotes, and didn't behave like coyotes, much spookier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    I know alot of people want to get all warm and fuzzy about wolves but does it bother anyone that millions of taxpayer dollars has been wasted on a disastrous failure of a reintroduction effort?

    Personally I feel that time and money would have been much more useful and beneficial improving habitat for the wildlife that's already there. Not to mention that the grey wolves have been documented in Colorado without any help from usfws by the way. If those wolves make it as far as the Gila they will annihilate the lobos. Then it was all for not anyways. To me it just seems asinine to keep pumping money into this.

    Just my opinion but its time to cut the welfare off on this let those wolves sink or swim on their own
    .
    I feel the same way about mississippi

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    Re: Off Topic: Mexican Gray Wolves in Sandias/Manzanos?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    I know alot of people want to get all warm and fuzzy about wolves but does it bother anyone that millions of taxpayer dollars has been wasted on a disastrous failure of a reintroduction effort?

    Personally I feel that time and money would have been much more useful and beneficial improving habitat for the wildlife that's already there. Not to mention that the grey wolves have been documented in Colorado without any help from usfws by the way. If those wolves make it as far as the Gila they will annihilate the lobos. Then it was all for not anyways. To me it just seems asinine to keep pumping money into this.

    Just my opinion but its time to cut the welfare off on this let those wolves sink or swim on their own
    .
    Perhaps you should educate yourself regarding the keystone predator role wolves play, and how that affects habitat of the entire food chain and even surficial topography/geology/geography/hydrology.

    There is a well know and easily understood case based on the Yellowstone reintroduction. Start there.

    Or you could just be a troll...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post

    Just my opinion but its time to cut the welfare off on this let those wolves sink or swim on their own
    .
    Cutting them right off is a bit rash, how about implementing mandatory drug tests first, and go from there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard View Post
    Cutting them right off is a bit rash, how about implementing mandatory drug tests first, and go from there?
    LOL. Well played!
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    Quote Originally Posted by iscariot View Post
    Perhaps you should educate yourself regarding the keystone predator role wolves play, and how that affects habitat of the entire food chain and even surficial topography/geology/geography/hydrology.

    There is a well know and easily understood case based on the Yellowstone reintroduction. Start there.

    Or you could just be a troll...
    Do you live in NM?

    Do you spend anytime in the Gila at all?

    Do you have any experience with the ranchers and general population in that area?

    I don't think you do.

    Secondly, the yellowstone re introduction was great…until it spread outside the boundaries and has and will continue to have serious consequences for the wildlife and local economies. Not to mention all the money wasted on the lawsuits brought about by idiotic and fanatical animal rights groups and environmentalists. Maybe you should educate yourself a little bit and quit being so condescending and arrogant.

    Nobody likes to see an animal pushed to the brink of extinction but sometimes undoing the past just isn't possible and you have to move on.

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    I dunno, we let ranchers practically do whatever they want in our national forest and BLM land. We could end that welfare and maybe it'll make the re-introduction of wolves much cheaper for everyone involved.

    Sounds good to me. Sick and tired of seeing all the streams, water holes and arroyos filled with cow crap anyways.

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    ^ +1 I live above the Gila in McKinley Co. and have spent time in the Gila, I was born on a farm and I feel like I am familiar with farmers and ranchers in my area. Maybe you ranchers need to move on too, the days of cows is over. Extractive commercial enterprises are of no real concern to me, but the welfare of a fellow creature on public land is of great concern. Some things are more important than money. I do own land in the Zuni Mountains, just above the Gila, where I spend most of my time, if that makes my opinion more relevant. Our problem up here is a surplus of mountain lions and cattle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    Do you live in NM?

    Do you have any experience with the ranchers and general population in that area?

    Secondly, the Yellowstone re-introduction was great…until it spread outside the boundaries and has and will continue to have serious consequences for the wildlife and local economies.....
    Do you live on planet earth?

    We'll just assume that by "wildlife" you are referring to cows. Because believe me, there are plenty of deer and elk for those wolfs to hunt!!!

    Oh, I get it now... the ranchers don't like the wolves eating the elk because those hunting tags are worth big bucks...

    Uhmmmm, I smell spin!!!
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    Re: Off Topic: Mexican Gray Wolves in Sandias/Manzanos?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    Do you live in NM?

    Do you spend anytime in the Gila at all?

    Do you have any experience with the ranchers and general population in that area?

    I don't think you do.

    Secondly, the yellowstone re introduction was great…until it spread outside the boundaries and has and will continue to have serious consequences for the wildlife and local economies. Not to mention all the money wasted on the lawsuits brought about by idiotic and fanatical animal rights groups and environmentalists. Maybe you should educate yourself a little bit and quit being so condescending and arrogant.

    Nobody likes to see an animal pushed to the brink of extinction but sometimes undoing the past just isn't possible and you have to move on.
    Ah. So you are a troll that, as is typical of trolls, has no idea about the subject or the person toward which you are spewing poorly assumptive falsehoods, and also fail to employ consesus based scientific results to provide evidence of your simple-minded claims.

    Thanks for outing yourself as a troll.

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    I just noticed the title of this thread is Mexican Grey wolves. Maybe that has a few people mislead. These are not grey wolves. They are just Mexican wolves. Much smaller, with suspect genetics. IF grey wolves make it this far, they will kill the Mexican wolves, that's just how it is with them.

    I am not a rancher. I do not own cows or even any land other than my house which is located in the city.

    I also do not advocate for the ranchers. I don't like overgrazing, I don't like the environmental damage done by cows. I don't like arguing with ranchers over their version of land access to public land. I don't think they pay anywhere near as much as they should for the land lease. Last time I checked, if I remember correctly, it was under 2 dollars a head per year. A head of cattle consists of one bull or a cow and calf. I also don't like ranchers getting elk, deer and antelope permits, wildlife that belongs to the State, to sell for profit. I am a hunter and those tags belong in the lottery system.

    On the other hand I don't think its time for that way of life to move on. I also really like steak, hamburgers, and roast. That has to come from somewhere and that somewhere are cattle operations. Ranchers are also responsible for installing cattle tanks and wells on public land. These are intended for cattle but benefit ALL wildlife. Personally, I've had a lot of negative experiences with ranchers but I don't think they're all bad or greedy. Its called compromise. We all have to do it at some time of other.

    This re introduction project has gone on for about 15-20 years and they don't even have breeding pairs that can stay together and out of harms way yet. Wolves don't know they are supposed to stay in the "recovery zone". That zone is wilderness between AZ. and NM. They also don't know they're not supposed to eat cows. These things put them into conflict with ranchers, hunters, poachers, trappers, weekend campers and vehicles. The ranchers and trappers of course being the people who eradicated them to begin with. The wolves constantly have to be recaptured, put back in the holding pens to reestablish a breeding pair for the alpha and omega set up, turned loose again to be shot, sometimes by Government employees, hit by a car or die from an indeterminable cause, back to the holding pen...over and over. Its pretty much common sense to think this "effort" wasn't going to work out by putting the wolf in the backyard of the people who went to extreme measures to get rid of them. Ad in the idea of an untrusted Government forcing this down the throat of people who generally like to think of themselves as self governed and have a sense of entitlement to the public land they use...you can see the problem, right? It was a noble effort but its failed. I simply say this, what wolves are out there, leave them alone and let them do their thing. If they get back on track fine. If not, well, you tried. The money being pumped into this can still go to benefit animals and people that use public land for different things. My interest lies mostly in S.W. New Mexico so I'd like to see more watering stations erected, invasive plant species removed and thinning to promote indigenous plant growth. It was a dubious idea to begin with but as of now I think its a waste of time and money. But, thats just me. I won't get mad and call you a troll if you don't like my opinion or if yours differs from mine.

    Now, as far as getting personal is concerned. Iscariot calls me troll because I have a different opinion? How does that make me a troll exactly? Everyone has to agree with you or they're no good? Is that it? I didn't out myself as anything other than an individual with a different opinion. Then you start with the troll b.s. The only outing was you outing yourself as an *******.

    A couple of others, bsieb and da goat seemed to jump to the same conclusion. Again I ask why? Just because of a different opinion? I hope not all mountain bikers are as paranoid, clannish and narrow minded as you guys are. If you don't like my opinion, fine. Don't like me because I said I was a hunter, thats fine too. But to freak out and feel like there's "a troll" or somebody with an agenda is ridiculous. Let me ask you, how many ranchers, real life 7 day a week, cow crap on the boots, real deal ranchers do you think are cruising mountain bike forums?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaGoat View Post
    Do you live on planet earth?

    We'll just assume that by "wildlife" you are referring to cows. Because believe me, there are plenty of deer and elk for those wolfs to hunt!!!

    Oh, I get it now... the ranchers don't like the wolves eating the elk because those hunting tags are worth big bucks...

    Uhmmmm, I smell spin!!!
    Forgot to mention, theres not plenty for them to eat. Elk and Moose populations have been decimated by the expanding wolf numbers. Up until recently wolves were left to grow their numbers unchecked. Thats alot of mouths to feed and wolves do not only eat sick and weak. There's alot more to it, you can look it up just like I have. This isn't my opinion, its what biologists have determined through their methods of research.

    And yes, hunting tags are good money. When predation drops herd numbers below whats been determined as sustainable the first thing to go is hunting. I think thats the ultimate goal for groups like the Humane Society but thats another matter. It also puts alot of people out of work. Whether you like outfitters, guides, and hunters or not, the income raised through their efforts puts money in local economies.

    And since I know its coming, no...I am not a guide or an outfitter and am in no way affiliation is expressed or implied.

    I am a hunter and a noob mountain biker.

    I think wolves should be managed like all other big game animals. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less.

    This thread is way off track. My apologies to the op for my part in that.

  39. #39
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    Forgot to mention, theres not plenty for them to eat. Elk and Moose populations have been decimated by the expanding wolf numbers. Up until recently wolves were left to grow their numbers unchecked. Thats alot of mouths to feed and wolves do not only eat sick and week. This isn't my opinion, its what biologists have determined through their methods of research.
    You haven't the foggiest clue what you are talking about.
    Elk and Moose populations have been decimated by loss of habitat due to human development and encroachment, period, end of story.
    Next you will blame the loss of Buffalo habitat due to Chupacabras.

    One thing is fairly uniform about the anti wolf moment...they are usually in full denial of the impacts of their own actions.
    Wanna save 100 Elk?
    Quit tropy hunting.
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    Now, as far as getting personal is concerned. Iscariot calls me troll because I have a different opinion? How does that make me a troll exactly? Everyone has to agree with you or they're no good? Is that it? I didn't out myself as anything other than an individual with a different opinion. Then you start with the troll b.s. The only outing was you outing yourself as an *******.

    A couple of others, bsieb and da goat seemed to jump to the same conclusion. Again I ask why? Just because of a different opinion? I hope not all mountain bikers are as paranoid, clannish and narrow minded as you guys are. If you don't like my opinion, fine. Don't like me because I said I was a hunter, thats fine too. But to freak out and feel like there's "a troll" or somebody with an agenda is ridiculous. Let me ask you, how many ranchers, real life 7 day a week, cow crap on the boots, real deal ranchers do you think are cruising mountain bike forums?
    I didn't call you a troll because you have a different opinion. You clearly need to re-read my original post; I called you a troll because you failed to back up your opinion with any scientific consensus. But, as is typical with trolls, you alter the argument and move the goal posts, and still fail to cite any evidence of your claims.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    Forgot to mention, theres not plenty for them to eat. Elk and Moose populations have been decimated by the expanding wolf numbers. Up until recently wolves were left to grow their numbers unchecked. Thats alot of mouths to feed and wolves do not only eat sick and week. This isn't my opinion, its what biologists have determined through their methods of research.

    Got links to the research and scientific consensus with evidence that proves any of your claims of "decimated" populations due to wolves?

    Again, wolves are a keystone species. You really need to read basic ecological textbook or research, because your understanding of this topic is laughable. You should also do some research regarding how wolf populations are affected by food supply/availability, and how a sustainable population balance occurs.

    rideit is correct. Additionally moose and elk populations are "decimated" and become unhealthy, diseased, and unsustainable (due to all of the things rideit listed and) due to overgrazing of the available/remaining habitat because, without wolves, ungulate populations are unchecked.

    Read these...

    Wolf reintroduction, predation risk, and cottonwood recovery in Yellowstone National Park
    Wolf reintroduction, predation risk, and cottonwood recovery in Yellowstone National Park
    HABITAT SELECTION BY ELK BEFORE AND AFTER WOLF REINTRODUCTION IN YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK
    An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    Coyote foraging ecology and vigilance in response to gray wolf reintroduction in Yellowstone National Park
    An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    Yellowstone after Wolves
    An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    Wolves, elk, and bison: reestablishing the
    “landscape of fear” in Yellowstone National Park,
    U.S.A
    An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    Factors limiting woodland caribou populations and their interrelationships with wolves and moose in southeastern British Columbia
    An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
    Moose-wolf dynamics and the natural regulation of moose populations
    Moose-wolf dynamics and the natural regulation of moose populations - Springer
    Effects of population density and pack size on the foraging ecology of grey wolves.
    JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    The only outing was me outing myself as an *******.
    FIFY...

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    You haven't the foggiest clue what you are talking about.
    Elk and Moose populations have been decimated by loss of habitat due to human development and encroachment, period, end of story.
    Next you will blame the loss of Buffalo habitat due to Chupacabras.

    One thing is fairly uniform about the anti wolf moment...they are usually in full denial of the impacts of their own actions.
    Wanna save 100 Elk?
    Quit tropy hunting.
    Thats a major part of the story. You are correct. But, thats not all. Wolf expansion is an issue to be dealt with. Like it or not.

    I also don't trophy hunt. I am also not anti wolf. I am anti throwing good money after bad. As far as NM is concerned, it hasn't worked like it did in Yellowstone. Its that simple. Now, that particular sup species was a success and has outgrown its rehabilitation zone, it has effected big game populations and those States need to let their biologists figure out how to deal with it. It really is that simple. I don't know how you don't see it. What are guys getting so pissed and riled up over?

    I just re read my post that started this and don't see how in the world you guys came to the conclusion that I was a rancher with an anti wolf agenda? I think I spelled it out clearly. Obviously I didnt dumb it down for even the dumbest to understand. My bad. I'm simply not going to turn into a vegetarian, grow a vagina and go to howl fest to agree with you guys. Does that sound ignorant and like I'm stereotyping and lumping you in with a group you don't belong to? If so, good, thats exactly what you're doing to me. You guys are comical.

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    I didn't put up links to research. That still doesn't make me a troll. I did not redirect. I tried to explain my stance where you guys got way off base and started jumping to conclusions. Which you're still doing. I will look stuff up on the internet just like you did. I will find arcticles that show wolves dropping elk herd numbers to below sustainable levels. Then what? I'll still be a troll for some reason, you'll still be a dick for obvious reasons.

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    If anybody is re directing it you. Just a quick glance at your "sources" they're either based on research inside yellowstone or outside of the U.S. Outside the yellowstone boundary and Mexican wolves is whats being discussed. As for Quebec, they found out wolves vary their diet in areas with lower Moose populations. Wow, thats really driving the point home. You obviously just have a bug up your ass for some reason.

  44. #44
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    TheFist- Sorry I called you a rancher, but that was the only conclusion I jumped to. I don't care if you hunt, I hunt too. As far as sympathy for ranchers, they are just another industry as far as I'm concerned, and we shouldn't administrate wildlife for benefit of their corporate financial gain. Whether the wolf program is legitimate or not is a different matter, and you are entitled to your opinion. So am I. Wolves are welcome to eat all the elk and cattle they care to in the Zuni Mts. as far as I'm concerned.
    I ride with the best people.




  45. #45
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    I'm willing to pay more taxes to get wolves back in our forest and cows out. I'm sure plenty of people are. One thing I cannot sit by idly and watch is the West becoming the East. That's for certain. Once we give up that growth, environmental loss, and financial priority are inevitable, we have lost the West.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jambolaya View Post
    Go back to playing in the f88 sandbox, ya donk!

    Edit:
    It's so much more fun to screw around here Bry... now where's that Bando Hammer? ... or was it a paint brush?
    Dug-Da-Goat

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    ...so welcome to the Odyssey!

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFist View Post
    I didn't put up links to research. That still doesn't make me a troll. I did not redirect. I tried to explain my stance where you guys got way off base and started jumping to conclusions. Which you're still doing. I will look stuff up on the internet just like you did. I will find arcticles that show wolves dropping elk herd numbers to below sustainable levels. Then what? I'll still be a troll for some reason, you'll still be a dick for obvious reasons.
    Glad to see you defend yourself. You would be wrong to think the people of this forum have any unity in any areas. This site is a cluster **** enjoy it for what it is.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    Glad to see you defend yourself. You would be wrong to think the people of this forum have any unity in any areas. This site is a cluster **** enjoy it for what it is.
    Just to be clear, I don't think you're a troll Fist. I suspect we probably would agree on any practical matter, so nothing personal intended. You might be surprised to know that I don't hate ranchers. Just get tired of the brokedick ones that blame everyone and everything for their self imposed problems.

    I would rather see wolves than more bears and cougars. I believe wolves are less problematic overall. The small ranches in the Zuni Mountains have elk fence installed around their perimeter to keep the elk from eating all their grass. Elk are destructive to cattle too in that sense, so the wolves aren't all bad for the ranchers either. It's a matter of balance, hard to achieve quickly or on a budget, but the only real win/win scenario.

    The last cattle rancher I talked to about wolves said that he has no idea if wolves will cause problems for him or not but that he had more pressing matters to think about. He produces grass fed beef for La Montanita Coop and occasionally rides his mountain bike.
    I ride with the best people.




  49. #49
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    I see them them infrequently in the re-introduction area (I live there on the AZ. side) and their impact on elk populations has been minimal. I would hazard a guess that Dodge trucks have a greater impact on elk.

  50. #50
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    What about those f'in jaguars?

    They're in NM.

    Ride afraid!
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

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