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  1. #1
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    New Travel Management Plan

    Has anyone seen this. I have been spotting motos on Otero/Tunnel lately. Guess it's ok?

    The dotted lines are "motorcycle Only" desigantions...
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  2. #2
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    You sure about that? I thought the Cedro area was to be the motorized area, and Tunnel, Otero and David Canyon were to stay Nonmotorized.

  3. #3
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    B&w

    ..unless I am reading this wrong? I hope so.

  4. #4
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    Le Freak!

    I do not believe Closure Order No.03-211 was rescinded.

    http://gis.fs.fed.us/r3/cibola/trave...r_no03_211.pdf

    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  5. #5
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    So whats the deal? If they get caught, it looks like they have an argument.

  6. #6
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    Hey Nota. Give us your words of wisdom on this. Do you know anythinng?

  7. #7
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    Ignorance of the Law Is a Perfectly Good Excuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    So whats the deal? If they get caught, it looks like they have an argument.
    Yep, but ignorance of the law is no defense.

    I argue that I should not be subject to the laws of gravity and motion all the time.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob

    I argue that I should not be subject to the laws of gravity and motion all the time.
    When your young, dumb, and full of ***, the laws of gravity and motion do not apply.

    The good ole days...here is the next genre of Bandos


  9. #9
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    Read a bit more

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Has anyone seen this. I have been spotting motos on Otero/Tunnel lately. Guess it's ok?

    The dotted lines are "motorcycle Only" desigantions...
    It appears that motorcycles ARE allowed on Tunnel, Otero and David Canyon. Based upon this closure notice, paragraph 7. I'm sure that most users of these trails do not know this. I sure didn't.

    They are closed to ATVs. I think most motorcycle riders in the know just pass it up so as to avoid hiker/biker conflict. Now that this has been publicized, expect to see more.

    RCC's on beer slugging duties for the foreseeable future.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    RCC's on beer slugging duties for the foreseeable future.

    This could be very interesting.

    If I didn't know better, I would say that he knew it all along

  11. #11
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    Upset

    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    It appears that motorcycles ARE allowed on Tunnel, Otero and David Canyon. Based upon this closure notice, paragraph 7. I'm sure that most users of these trails do not know this. I sure didn't.

    They are closed to ATVs. I think most motorcycle riders in the know just pass it up so as to avoid hiker/biker conflict. Now that this has been publicized, expect to see more.

    RCC's on beer slugging duties for the foreseeable future.
    I ran into a moto today that was making a video of David, Otero andTunnel for the morotized gang. And the Ranger station is giving free maps thay showes this ares open to all two wheeled travel. Better keep your ears open out there now. From what this guy says, word is spreading fast.

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    Yeah, it was bound to happen, I was just wondering when. I was up a Cedro last week and came across some people on 4-wheelers tearing down the barriers and removing the no 4-wheeler allowed signs. Both of which were put up by the forest service. It looked like they were also carrying chain saws (illegal cutting too) to widen the trail where it gets to narrow for them.

    Other trails that were closed to motorized vehicles, like the one from the Juan Thomas parking area, are now being taken over by motorcycles and 4-wheelers. I saw the trail sign that had the X'ed out motorcycles/4-wheelers was literally broken off at the base. I'm less concerned about the motorcyles as the 4-wheelers. They really kill the single track - making them wide and wiping out the berms.

    I'm contemplating stopping at the ranger station on the way out. My only concern is they may close it to all mechanized vehicles...

  13. #13
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    This change makes no sense. Throwing motorcycles on these trails loaded with hikers and bikes on ST.I guess now that they have torn up the Cedro area the Forest Service thought they need somewhere else to screw up the trails. I thought the FS knew what it was doing when they kept the motos in Cedro and hikers and bikes in Otero. Whoever decided to allow motos back in the Otero system made a bad call. I sure dont want Otero to look like the Cedro trails.

  14. #14
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    Reading about motos on Otero makes me wanna throw-up...

    That trail is prime singletrack and now it will be destroyed.

    I did a race up in Arkansas in April on a trail that was open to moto's and it was horrible. A deep rut in teh middle of what would be single track that was deep enough to keep you from making a full pedal stroke, all of the corners were washed out and full of loose dirt.. not to mention moto riders forcing mtb'ers off the trail.

    This development is sickening... literally.
    "Someone must have put alcohol in my beer last night." ~ Mr. Richard Baty, Esq.


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    Horrible, absoultely horrible

    It just goes to show where the interests of those in charge lie. This is a most disappointing turn of events for that area, but one that probably was destined to happen eventually.

  16. #16
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    Well if you own a moto it would be cool, I am sure RCC will be having fun on his moto. I like motos so looking for used dirt bike this season to mix things up some with my training (and skill set).

    I know what you all are saying (everyone) but I would have NO prob with it if Mtn. bikers could go on ANY trail the hikers can go on. Man we are in America right? We are in a free country right or is that just what we tell the rest of the world?

    I am not sure what my take is on the ATVs however due to they make single track into double tracks.

  17. #17
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    With Motos it can be a good thing all depends upon the rider. Seeing RCC a few weeks / months back out at Cedro on his was a NON issue with other bikers. We saw him a few times and never did we feel as if we were forced off any trails.

    The ATV are just a wilderness wheelchair. Allowing the masses to get wayout into the middle of nowhere and jack it up for everyone else. WHY would one want to ride an ATV even at Cedro much less Otero? Last season we cam across an ATV rider and needed to pass. All he could do was tear up the trail attempting to get the thing down the trail.

    No one disagrees that the trails are multi-use, but should be limited to single track capable vehicles only.

  18. #18
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    Hey guys,
    I'm possibly one of the motorcycle guys you have seen out in the Otero/Tunnel canyon area. So far I've ran into mostly negative reactions and comments from fellow MTB and hiking trail users. Had a somewhat heated exchange of words from an MTB'er on Friday with someone that I think is participating in this discussion. No matter what I said and what maps I tried showing him (the official travel management plan map I had just picked up from the ranger station) he was dead set on giving me a hard time and accusing me of being wrong threatening to call a ranger on me. I was fine with that as it would prove that I was correct but as far as I know he never did.

    I think right now you'll mostly see motorcycle riders like myself. Those that are responsible, give the right of way to everyone they meet on the trail, are constantly scanning the trail ahead looking for people and keeping speeds way down. We need to share these trails and I know I'd hate to be the hiker or biker who just got dusted by a motorcyclist that appeared to be out of control and tearing things up. I'd just like to see a little respect in return. Riding single track on a motorcycle takes a skill set and user mentality that the bad apples of our sport are usually not interested in. Slow and technical vs. high speed desert blasting.

    So anyway, just trying to find some more info on the trails in that area and hopefully squash any misconceptions that some people have about us, responsible motorized users. I do agree with the other poster that these trails are NOT for ATV users. The "wilderness wheelchair" comment is very fitting. I like my single track being exactly that, a single track! If you guys see a motorcyclist patiently waiting for someone to pass on a blue and yellow Husqvarna then that is probably me.

  19. #19
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    Just came from the trails day event at Elena where we were told by the forest service that new signage would be going in next week (or so) along with patrols on motorcycles. Tickets to be issued by forest service personnel. Interestingly enough they mentioned that singletrack in the Cedro area would be closed due to being on private property. When questioned he couldn't name the trails. Anyone else heard about pending closures in Cedro area?

  20. #20
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    As far as I know, that travel management map is official. If a trail will be closed then it won't be one that is on that map.

    Quote Originally Posted by desert flower
    Just came from the trails day event at Elena where we were told by the forest service that new signage would be going in next week (or so) along with patrols on motorcycles. Tickets to be issued by forest service personnel. Interestingly enough they mentioned that singletrack in the Cedro area would be closed due to being on private property. When questioned he couldn't name the trails. Anyone else heard about pending closures in Cedro area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    Hey guys,
    I'm possibly one of the motorcycle guys you have seen out in the Otero/Tunnel canyon area. .
    You surely deserve some credit for your willingness to establish a dialogue in this mtb forum. Unfortunately, it's pretty certain that once motos start migrating to tunnel/otero, they'll all follow, and then the fact that there's a relative handfull of considerate riders won't much matter relative to the impact of the rest.

    Furthermore, regardless of how hard you try, I find it hard to imagine how a rig as heavy and powerful as a moto can navigate the steep, loose, rocky climbs characteristic of the area without having the impact on the terrain that motos usually have. It's kind of like saying you have a 1000 watt stereo, but never turn it up loud enough to disturb anybody. It all depends on what you call loud and being disturbed. In this case, it all depends upon what you call impacting fragile terrain.

    I also can't imagine the FS having a clue as to the existing use pattern of this area, and still making it available to motos. Unlike cedro, tunnel/otero is way more popular with hikers, including families with little kids and little ol' ladies watching birds.

    On the one hand, the only reason people aren't run down by motos in cedro is because only a damn fool would fail to get clear of the trail when they heard one coming. And on the other, I'm sure granny's going to be real impressed with your gallantry when you stop to give her the opportunity to squeeze past your rig on one of the tunnel canyon ledges.

    Sorry, but try as you might, any noticeable presence of motos in tunnel/otero will ultimately have a significant negative impact on everyone else's use.

  22. #22
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    Dualsporter, thanks for trying to keep the peace. Keep up your tread lightly practices and brush off the negative comments. It sucks that we have to share the trails at Otero, but it is what it is.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson
    You surely deserve some credit for your willingness to establish a dialogue in this mtb forum. Unfortunately, it's pretty certain that once motos start migrating to tunnel/otero, they'll all follow, and then the fact that there's a relative handfull of considerate riders won't much matter relative to the impact of the rest.

    Furthermore, regardless of how hard you try, I find it hard to imagine how a rig as heavy and powerful as a moto can navigate the steep, loose, rocky climbs characteristic of the area without having the impact on the terrain that motos usually have. It's kind of like saying you have a 1000 watt stereo, but never turn it up loud enough to disturb anybody. It all depends on what you call loud and being disturbed. In this case, it all depends upon what you call impacting fragile terrain.

    I also can't imagine the FS having a clue as to the existing use pattern of this area, and still making it available to motos. Unlike cedro, tunnel/otero is way more popular with hikers, including families with little kids and little ol' ladies watching birds.

    On the one hand, the only reason people aren't run down by motos in cedro is because only a damn fool would fail to get clear of the trail when they heard one coming. And on the other, I'm sure granny's going to be real impressed with your gallantry when you stop to give her the opportunity to squeeze past your rig on one of the tunnel canyon ledges.

    Sorry, but try as you might, any noticeable presence of motos in tunnel/otero will ultimately have a significant negative impact on everyone else's use.
    Thank You. I could not say it better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun
    Dualsporter, thanks for trying to keep the peace. Keep up your tread lightly practices and brush off the negative comments. It sucks that we have to share the trails at Otero, but it is what it is.

    It is unfortunate that there are people even here that twist reality to justify their needs.

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    I just don't like to hear much of anything sometimes when I'm on my MTB, especially a moto. It always seems that I end up running into you guys (literally) in the most inopportune moments.

    I love motorcycles and If I had one, I would probably want to ride out there too but coming from Cochiti a few weeks ago, I will never understand why you guys would go anywhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I love motorcycles and If I had one, I would probably want to ride out there too but coming from Cochiti a few weeks ago, I will never understand why you guys would go anywhere else.
    Probably for the same reasons why you don't go to the same place over and over. Variety is the spice of life.

  27. #27
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    Same terrain!

    BTW..if I could take my MTB out to Cochiti everyday, I would.

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    It might be the same general type of terrain but it's different trails and challenges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    It might be the same general type of terrain but it's different trails and challenges.
    I could put you in touch with someone who would probably blow your mind at the amount of trails in Cochiti. The main problem, I think, is that Cedro (and now Otero) are just too close to justify the drive anywhere else. Am I wrong?

    All I'm saying is that I like the peace and quite of the woods, and the smell of gas fumes and sounds of engines generally disrupts this experience for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I could put you in touch with someone who would probably blow your mind at the amount of trails in Cochiti. The main problem, I think, is that Cedro (and now Otero) are just too close to justify the drive anywhere else. Am I wrong?

    All I'm saying is that I like the peace and quite of the woods, and the smell of gas fumes and sounds of engines generally disrupts this experience for me.

    I've rode Cochiti many times. Cedro and Otero being close are nice but it's not the only reason why I go out there. I can be riding single track on the west mesa in under 10 min's from where I live where it takes me 30-45 min to get to the Cedro area but I've rode those trails on the west mesa so often that I know them like nobody should!! Like I said, It's something different. It's the same reason why you don't go to the same trail over, and over, and over.....

    I understand what you're saying but these are our trails. I have to make compromises to ride them just like everyone else and I do the best I can to keep my impact to others around me to a minimum so they can enjoy them as well. What some of you are saying sounds pretty selfish and misinformed to me.

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    Touche...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    What some of you are saying sounds pretty selfish and misinformed to me.

    You should reconsider your approach.

    All you have to do is look at Cedro and what it has become over the last year or so to understand what the potential impact will be @ Otero.

    I have been run over by a moto and come extremely close to head on collisions on more that one occasion? The guy that ran over me a few years back had no business riding on those trails. He was a total newb and way over his head. It would be nice to know that I had a choice of whether or not I felt like putting myself at risk by riding Cedro or Otero.

  32. #32
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    Just curious why you hang around here on the MTBR web site? I dont think your going to change the way we feel about motos in Otero. Comming here and calling us selfish just wont get you anywhere. If selfish is not wanting Otero to look like Cedro. Well then I guess Im selfish. Why dont you get a Mtn Bike and ride with us, see what kind of skills you have then.Then you might have a little more credability here.

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    I do have a Mtn. Bike and have riden all those trails on it. What difference does that really make?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52
    Why dont you get a Mtn Bike and ride with us, see what kind of skills you have then.Then you might have a little more credability here.
    Yeah, I know a couple of spots

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    heh,..heh

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    I do have a Mtn. Bike and have riden all those trails on it. What difference does that really make?
    Well come on out, I'd love to show you around.

  36. #36
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    Well then why dont you ride your Mtn Bike at Otero and the motorcycle at Cedro. Then go hang out at a Moto web site. Seems like you want to push the issue by hanging out here. You wont change any minds here. The Forest Service made a bad call by bringing Motorcycles back in Tunnel-Otero. Its as plain as that.

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    Hey Steve, I going to hook up with a fella today ( I hope ). There is no risk of Moto's where we will be riding..Interested?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Hey Steve, I going to hook up with a fella today ( I hope ). There is no risk of Moto's where we will be riding..Interested?
    Sounds like a plan.PM with the when and where.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    So anyway, just trying to find some more info on the trails in that area and hopefully squash any misconceptions that some people have about us, responsible motorized users. I do agree with the other poster that these trails are NOT for ATV users. The "wilderness wheelchair" comment is very fitting. I like my single track being exactly that, a single track!
    It is ignorant to think that you motorcycle does as little damage to the trails as a bike. you have an extra 250lbs and so much more torque then a mt. bike. Plus not everyone is going to be an "experienced" rider, so in your ignorance and selfishness to ride these trails you, and the forest service, are making sure these trails will not be there for years to enjoy for the mt. bikers.

    I have seen it before, moto heads, I am a "Wilderness wheelchair" rider, do not respect the land. We will soon see deep ruts from the motorcyclests in there after heavy rains, more trash scattered throughout the trai, this is Abq after all. I have no trouble sharing the trails with responsible motorcyclests, the problem is that they are few and far in between! If you open the trail to one, you open it to all. These are nice trails, while they last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    What some of you are saying sounds pretty selfish and misinformed to me.
    The comments you're reading are all from riders who've heard the noise, been run off the trail and witnessed the ongoing erosion by motos in cedro. So, how is it that we're all so misinformed?

    Furthermore, how is our wanting to preserve one network of trails for our own use, to be considered selfish, but somebody on a motorcycle wanting to horn in on every square inch of trail they can find is not?

    And does someone really have to spell out for you the many ways in which the weight and power of a motorcycle has a greater impact on a trail than a bicycle? Hell, half the posts here in the early spring pertain to whether or not one trail or another should even be ridden due to delicate conditions. So, please, offer up a link to the moto-forum where motobikers will get criticized for riding in mud, spinning tires, or fishtailing up climbs at tunnel/otero.

    Ever since I started riding, the word was that no one had the right to criticize the motos in cedro because they were largely responsible for the trails in the first place. But people don't feel that way about tunnel/otero, and if it weren't for what you call selfishness, you'd respect that and go fire up your engines somewhere else.

    And in case you haven't noticed, the replies to your comments have been particularly civil in spite of your pronouncements of our ignorance and selfishness. I've seen people here get more jacked up discussing their choice of lube. So, since you're not trying to sway the befuddled townsfolk here, consider losing the passive aggressive rhetoric so it stays that way.

    Oh, and for pete's sake, the word is ridden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson
    Oh, and for pete's sake, the word is ridden.

    Who's Pete?
    Last edited by Mtn. Biker123; 06-09-2009 at 05:47 AM.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Who's Pete?
    Who's jack, and why are they choosing lube together?




    -

    Um, seriously, motos really don't need to be unleashed into otero/tunnel. Nothing good will come of this. It is not a moto trail, IMHO. If it becomes a moto trail, then it won't be nearly so nice (and it is really nice) of a MTB and hike trail. When I've ridden it, I've had very positive interactions with hikers. Although many moto riders are perfectly nice folks, it just isn't the same kind of thing.
    In best Klingon voice: Today is a good day to ride!

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    Moto's BEWARE

    Crash88 and I were just about to saddle up to our steeds when were "approached" by Ranger Rick and his entourage in the Cedro p-lot. I am pretty sure that he did not notice the bikes as they were parked on the opposite side of my truck from him. We were all kitted up with CB's overflowin' when he drove up. His demeanor was stern and he informed me that "old days" of running loose out there were over and insisted that we stay on the trails. He went so far as to provide me a map (Motor Vehicle) and gave me a quick lesson on what was available in the area. I kept quite mostly, except to make sure that he knew I was from out of town (I was that freaked out by his presence). Afterward, I wondered why he was so serious about mountain bikes staying on designated trails and giving me a map that only indicated motorized travel guidelines. It occurred later that he must have mistaken us for a couple of moto heads.

    Long story short, you motos better watch yourselves out there. They will be patrolling on motorcycles of their own by next week and issuing citations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LCdaveH
    Who's jack, and why are they choosing lube together?




    -

    Um, seriously, motos really don't need to be unleashed into otero/tunnel. Nothing good will come of this. It is not a moto trail, IMHO. If it becomes a moto trail, then it won't be nearly so nice (and it is really nice) of a MTB and hike trail. When I've ridden it, I've had very positive interactions with hikers. Although many moto riders are perfectly nice folks, it just isn't the same kind of thing.
    After yesterday and seeing all of the trails that were lost to the motos, I kinda feel a little sorry for them. Otero has always been open to moto's they just mostly respected it as a hiking/biking area. They, the FS, is taking this thing very serious. It would be akin to us losing over half of the FH's and having Open Space running around on bicycles handing out citations. I'm not saying that I agree with it, just saying I understand their situation a little better after yesterday. I see it as kind of being the moto's fault, too. They were not very discreet out at Cedro and I think they got a big slap on the hand because of it.

    If they can do this to Moto's there is not much stopping them from doing it to us if they ever felt the need.

  45. #45
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    If the FS would have done some sort of enforcement on the trails in Cedro and not let the motos have free range,it would not be in the shape it is in now. Dont think there is much reason for them to crack down on Mtn Bikes. We dont go in and rip up ST, Tear down signs, Cut trees to make room for 4 wheels on ST and overall deface the area. Not all Motos take part in these activities. But those that did screwed the area up for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LCdaveH
    Who's jack, and why are they choosing lube together?


    Hey, you guys managed to find both the proper names deviously hidden in the post! Good going!

    Now can you find the 5 past participles?

    Only 3 more days to ride here in WV. Just in time, too. I'm down to the last 6 Dale's that I loaded into my 50 lb. suitcase.

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    * "witnessed"

    * "considered"

    * "heard"

    * "ridden"

    * "noticed"

    It's raining outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    * "witnessed"

    * "considered"

    * "heard"

    * "ridden"

    * "noticed"

    It's raining outside.
    What is the best lube choice for participles?

    Dry, wet or waxy?
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    [QUOTE=Mtn. Biker123]...I am pretty sure that he did not notice the bikes as they were parked on the opposite side of my truck from him. He went so far as to provide me a map (Motor Vehicle) and gave me a quick lesson on what was available in the area. I kept quite mostly, except to make sure that he knew I was from out of town (I was that freaked out by his presence). It occurred later that he must have mistaken us for a couple of moto heads.QUOTE]

    Maybe he thought you were getting ready to rip it up in your monster truck. It's amazing where the OHVs have forced openings in tight areas.

    Why did you tell him you were from out of town?

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    In case I got caught later.

    When he left I was still under the impression that he was speaking specifically to MTB's. The map had very few trails that were open.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Crash88 and I were just about to saddle up to our steeds when were "approached" by Ranger Rick and his entourage in the Cedro p-lot. I am pretty sure that he did not notice the bikes as they were parked on the opposite side of my truck from him. We were all kitted up with CB's overflowin' when he drove up. His demeanor was stern and he informed me that "old days" of running loose out there were over and insisted that we stay on the trails. He went so far as to provide me a map (Motor Vehicle) and gave me a quick lesson on what was available in the area. I kept quite mostly, except to make sure that he knew I was from out of town (I was that freaked out by his presence). Afterward, I wondered why he was so serious about mountain bikes staying on designated trails and giving me a map that only indicated motorized travel guidelines. It occurred later that he must have mistaken us for a couple of moto heads.

    Long story short, you motos better watch yourselves out there. They will be patrolling on motorcycles of their own by next week and issuing citations.
    Could he think that MTBs are restricted to only use trails designated for motorized use?

    OTOH, it would be good if that sternness and enforcement is consistently applied going forward (with a correct understanding of allowed MTB use, of course).
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    I thought that too, Dave. I spoke with some people "in the know" and they didn't seem to think that was the case. We are considered "mechanical" transport,...not "motorized" correct?

    I would think that he would know the difference in a Moto kit vs. Mtb kit?

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I thought that too, Dave. I spoke with some people "in the know" and they didn't seem to think that was the case. We are considered "mechanical" transport,...not "motorized" correct?

    I would think that he would know the difference in a Moto kit vs. Mtb kit?
    One would hope. To the untrained outsider though ..... can't always be sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCdaveH
    What is the best lube choice for participles?

    Dry, wet or waxy?
    Obviously depends, as usual, on the riding conditions and the expected length of the ride. Age of the participles is also worth considering. When in doubt, go multi. Last thing you want is to have to interrupt a good ride due to squeaky part(iciple)s, or dragging out the recovery time because of excessive component wear.

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    um, not to repeat myself, but that's exactly what they said at the trails day at Elena. They mentioned that many trails in Cedro would be closed, they will be patroling on motorcycle and issuing tickets. The person in charge of this is brand new to the area, from the northeast and is gung ho. They, however, did not seem to know which trails would be closed. I know this got turned into a discussion about Otero, but sounds like there are issues at Cedro as well.

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    I knew that I had seen a similar post somewhere, sorry df! I'm not sure what to think at this point. I still think that it is odd that he would not know the difference between an Mtb and a Moto. So, my next question...where are Mtb's allowed to ride? The map he gave me says "motorcycles only". There are no designations for Mtb's. Under what user group do we fall in the new 'Plan'?

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    perhaps one of the trails might be roller coaster. It appears to cross private on the maps, but as far as I know, the FS has no authority to close trails on private land.
    Don't hate me because I'm Ti

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    Here's a clip from the Travel Management rule:
    http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/final.pdf
    "Almost all NFS
    trails serve nonmotorized users,
    including hikers, bicyclists, and
    equestrians, alone or in combination
    with motorized users."

    So I assume nothing has change for MTBs.

    Is that this is what the ranger gave you Bry?
    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/cibola/trave..._mvum_0509.pdf


    As far as the moto's in Otero, yea I don't like it but what's done is done; however, I will keep a map of where they are allowed to be so if I find them on other trails that they shouldn't be I'll pull out my map and show them. If they don't comply or blow me off, I'll be calling the rangers. I've seen moto track on trails that they shouldn't be on and hope I have the cool not to punch them in the face and just inform and/or call the rangers (should have attended some of the travel management meetings ).

    Please, everyone keep a map with you and your cell phone when you're out at Otero and call ranger John Hawkos 259-3464 and/or ranger Krysia Baron 281-3304 if you see any moto's on trails that they shouldn't be on. Remember no ATV's are allowed out there!

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    That's pretty similar. I hope nothing has changed for us out there. I'm just warming up to the place again.

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    I guess the question is. If you call, will they come out? Its going to be tough to try and catch them unless the rangers are out there to begin with.

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    I could be missing something here, but to my knowledge, there are no trails in Cedro that are legal for mtb's that aren't also legal for motos. In other words, if you get caught riding an mtb on a trail that's not legal for motos, you're going to get the same thing they'd get.

    Am I overlooking an exception?

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    The single track that starts just below the Juan Thomas parking lot used to have a sign showing ATV's and motorcycles X'ed out but bikes were OK. ATV's and motorcycles were supposed to go in on the trail just up past the parking area. At the other end of the single track where you hit the jeep road, there was a similar sign along with a message pointing the ATV/motorbikes straight instead of onto the single track. This led to the trail head above the parking area. So there was at least one I was aware of.

    Several trails had ATV's X'ed out.

    On another note, I'm hoping all MTB'ers are extra courteous to hikers. There are a lot up there in both Cedro and Otero nowadays. If too many hikers complain we'll all get kicked out.

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    ATV's are a different story, but I don't think any distinction is made between mtb's and motorcycles at Cedro.

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    That Sucks!...if its true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    That Sucks!...if its true?
    For the most part it is true. However, the sign I'm refering to was there... It got broke off or otherwise removed just like I noticed signs on other trails with ATV's only X'd out "removed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson
    I could be missing something here, but to my knowledge, there are no trails in Cedro that are legal for mtb's that aren't also legal for motos. In other words, if you get caught riding an mtb on a trail that's not legal for motos, you're going to get the same thing they'd get.

    Am I overlooking an exception?
    I don't suppose the NFS prepared a map that shows all trails (motorized ok, mechanized ok, hike/horse only) for compare and contrast purposes. Is there anything that says something like non-mechanized users only?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCdaveH
    I don't suppose the NFS prepared a map that shows all trails (motorized ok, mechanized ok, hike/horse only) for compare and contrast purposes. Is there anything that says something like non-mechanized users only?
    I think I've seen all of the official land use maps for the main body of Cedro trails, and I've never seen one that makes a distinction with regard to 2-wheeled vehicles. If there are any that allow MTB's but not motorcycles, then they're outside the perimeter of the pro/expert race course. To my knowledge, all official trails are open to hikers, horses, mtb's and motorcycles, and a subset of those are off limits to 4-wheeled vehicles, with smaller 4-wheelers (atv's) possibly having slightly more priveleges than full-size.

    B, I think you can pretty much count on this "new age of enforcement" cracking down on MTB's riding anywhere other than official trails.

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    Thats a bummer. I wonder who will be the first to get cited?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson
    ATV's are a different story, but I don't think any distinction is made between mtb's and motorcycles at Cedro.
    Im pretty sure that mtbs are not thrown in with Motorcycles as a group. On this new Motor Vehicle Use map it states that this map does not display nonmotorized uses. As far as I know, mtbs are grouped with hikers and horses in nonmotorized use. I think Ill stop in the ranger station today and see if I clear this up. Id rather know for sure than take a chance with a ranger on the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52
    Im pretty sure that mtbs are not thrown in with Motorcycles as a group. On this new Motor Vehicle Use map it states that this map does not display nonmotorized uses. As far as I know, mtbs are grouped with hikers and horses in nonmotorized use. I think Ill stop in the ranger station today and see if I clear this up. Id rather know for sure than take a chance with a ranger on the trail.
    Let me put it another way, Steve. As far as Cedro is concerned, I don't see any official trails on any map that are NOT designated for motorcycles. Therefore, motorcycles are allowed everywhere that MTB's are allowed, since, imo, MTB's are not allowed on anything except official trails. Now, if you'd like to go to the ranger station and ask if you're allowed to ride off the official trails, then I'd be very interested to hear what you found out. But, in the meantime, I would not recommend getting caught riding somewhere other than an official trail.

    To my knowledge, in Cedro, as opposed to Otero, there weren't many instances of MTB's riding off the official trails until the last year, or so. Furthermore, I'm kind of surprised that this long-standing restriction comes as any great surprise to anyone. Doesn't everybody know that half of the super trails in Tunnel/Otero were "bootlegged" in the last few years, and that people have been holding their collective breaths to see how the FS reacts? And doesn't everybody know that in order to cut a new trail you're supposed to have official FS permission? Surely, it occurs to folks that riding off the designated trails is "cutting" a new trail.

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    From what I was told at the Tijeras Ranger Station, this travel management plan is intended for the motorized group only. I was told that they have no issues with the mtb group. we can ride what we want.As far as all existing trails. Was told that we can even check out equipment for trail work any time.Brian also asked about riding old grown over trails and clean them up. Lots of these are not ( official) trails. They have no problem with that. And infact would like to see them useable. Their Issue is with the damage done by the moto group. When asked where we can ride she said no changes. We can ride where weve been riding. Nothing about ( official trails only) An individuals feelings might be different about riding these trails, but thats what I was told how the FS stands. By the way. They also said they have got lots of complaints about Motos on Tunnel and Otero fron Hikers, Bikers and homeowners. Mabe they will see the problem there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52
    From what I was told at the Tijeras Ranger Station, this travel management plan is intended for the motorized group only. I was told that they have no issues with the mtb group. we can ride what we want.As far as all existing trails. Was told that we can even check out equipment for trail work any time.Brian also asked about riding old grown over trails and clean them up. Lots of these are not ( official) trails. They have no problem with that. And infact would like to see them useable. Their Issue is with the damage done by the moto group. When asked where we can ride she said no changes. We can ride where weve been riding. Nothing about ( official trails only) An individuals feelings might be different about riding these trails, but thats what I was told how the FS stands. By the way. They also said they have got lots of complaints about Motos on Tunnel and Otero fron Hikers, Bikers and homeowners. Mabe they will see the problem there.
    Well, that certainly was a constructive conversation. I guess it all depends on who in the FS is speaking at the time. As for unused, or, previously unheard of trails, you can knock yourselves out as far as I'm concerned. I've always felt like I had a bellyfull just trying to keep the existing Cedro trails in reasonable shape. To be sure, giving Brian a set of tools and a green light will certainly force the issue.

    Which brings me to the tale of riding Cedro for the first time in a couple months today. To make a long story short, and all 4-wheeler damage aside, it's obvious that Cedro is of a different character than T/O, and if you want to ride screaming fast, you ride Cedro. If you want to ride rugged, you go to T/O. And this difference is largely the result of the presence or absence of the motorcycles. OK, so be it - until I got to lower Mighty Mule. That endless deterioration of the area that includes those 2 big switchbacks is not only obviously the work of motorcycles, it's obviously irresponsible riding and, unless I miss my guess, just willful destruction.

    Furthermore, I think that a lot of the trail widening, etc., on Coyote and elsewhere, that's attributed to ATV's, is really done by motorcycles. There's way to much of it in between long stretches of singletrack.

    At least I had a wonderfully peaceful day out there, and on a Saturday no less. That's a miracle!

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    Yes it was a constructive conversation. I left there feeling much better about this whole travel management thing. Cought a little off guard by what I was told. But hey. I think you are correct about the cause of the damage out there. And yes it was a great day to ride. I think I saw one other bike in Otero, early afternoon. Nice And dang it was nice and cool.

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    missed ya Steve!

    There was a Turner there with your name on it.




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    Look at all those Turners in a row. As bad as I wanted to, when work calls. I have jump on it. Looks like you guys had a great time as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52
    From what I was told at the Tijeras Ranger Station, this travel management plan is intended for the motorized group only. I was told that they have no issues with the mtb group. we can ride what we want.As far as all existing trails. Was told that we can even check out equipment for trail work any time.Brian also asked about riding old grown over trails and clean them up. Lots of these are not ( official) trails. They have no problem with that. And infact would like to see them useable. Their Issue is with the damage done by the moto group. When asked where we can ride she said no changes. We can ride where weve been riding. Nothing about ( official trails only) An individuals feelings might be different about riding these trails, but thats what I was told how the FS stands. By the way. They also said they have got lots of complaints about Motos on Tunnel and Otero fron Hikers, Bikers and homeowners. Mabe they will see the problem there.
    I love the approach the FS is taking with regards to maintaining and reviving the ST's in Cedro/Otero. I spoke with someone other than the lady that Steve talked to and he said the same thing. The new director was being just a bit overzealous, I think, but he is cracking down hardcore on the Motos out there. They also feel that the new TMP which allows Motos on Otero was an oversight and I am sure with enough complaints they will be forced to review some new restrictions. That said, it would not hurt to voice your opinion in the drop box on the way out there.

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    Coyote and Cedro

    Well I rode coyote yesterday and was disappointed in what I saw. Just how wide it has gotten, torn up and in places cheater lines. I havent lived down here for long, but i remember it being a lot tighter 5 years ago.

    In reference, the main cheater line I saw was about halfway down from mighty mule, cedro two track intersection. The singletrack bears left goes over a few larger rocks and continues down the rest of the old trail, a pretty fun and challenging line, both going up and down. The cheater line or what ever you want to call it, continues straight through the woods and takes a 90 degree turn to the left. Definetlly created by motos.

    Seems to me some of the folks out there don't know how to handle their rigs, and felt Coyote was a little too hard to ride. I don't know what to think of it. With out the motos, coyote probablly wouldn't be there, and it wouldn't be as bermed out and as fun to ride down, or up. It just seems they have crossed over the line and invited more regulation upon themselves. Heck if some of those guys keep riding it the way they have been it's just going to become 5 foot wide fire road.

    I was originally on the fence about motos up in Otero. After riding cedro yesterday I am gonna have to say that I believe the FS made a mistake with opening up the Otero/Tunnel trails to motos. Seems a new crowd has popped up with out any of the respect that some of the old timer Moto riders had for the trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    They also feel that the new TMP which allows Motos on Otero was an oversight and I am sure with enough complaints they will be forced to review some new restrictions. That said, it would not hurt to voice your opinion in the drop box on the way out there.
    Let's work to make sure they feel that way... you can email Cid Morgan. She's the director at the Sandia Station. chmorgan@fs.fed.us
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    Quote Originally Posted by calvinjp
    I was originally on the fence about motos up in Otero. After riding cedro yesterday I am gonna have to say that I believe the FS made a mistake with opening up the Otero/Tunnel trails to motos. Seems a new crowd has popped up with out any of the respect that some of the old timer Moto riders had for the trails.
    Yep, and the ATV'ers basically took a parting shot at the FS. Let's hope the new sheriff in town is really gonna crack down. And let's start working to restrict motorized travel even more. As a MOUNTAIN BIKE TRAIL ADVOCATE, I do not advocate any trails for motorized travel. They can take it to the sand dunes west of town!.
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    done!

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    Emailed.

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    Here was the response from my email to Cid Morgan.....


    The trails that are open to motorcycles in the Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM) have ALWAYS been open to motorcycle use. There was a forest order that closed much of the area to cross country use with the exception of the trails that are open under the MVUM. There was a rumor that all of the areas west of 337 were closed to motorized use, and as such, people did not ride in areas that they were legally allowed to use.

    As for "the little bit we have left"--the district is just over 100,000 acres. The military withdrawn lands are roughly 20,486 acres leaving 79,514 acres for the public. The Sandia Mountain Wilderness is roughly 37,800 acres. This means 48% of the district that is open to the public is unavailable to either motorized or mechanized (including mountain bikes) use.

    I have passed your information over to Jeff Dube, our Trails foreman. He will try and do some patrol work with the trail crew in the area on weekends if they are available.

    Cid H. Morgan, District Ranger
    Sandia Ranger District
    11776 Hwy 337
    Tijeras, NM 87059
    505-281-3304 Phone
    505-281-1176 Fax

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9
    Here was the response from my email to Cid Morgan....
    This means 48% of the district that is open to the public is unavailable to either motorized or mechanized (including mountain bikes) use..
    That means hikers get half the available land for hiking only and we're stuffed onto the other 52% with the moto-heads. I personally think we need to start rallying to get certain areas off limits to motorized but not mechanized travel and we can start with anything West of South 14. I think that would just about equitably divide the land between motorized and mechanized! Let them have Cedro in my book! We need to fight to preserve Otero/Tunnel!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaGoat
    That means hikers get half the available land for hiking only and we're stuffed onto the other 52% with the moto-heads. I personally think we need to start rallying to get certain areas off limits to motorized but not mechanized travel and we can start with anything West of South 14. I think that would just about equitably divide the land between motorized and mechanized! Let them have Cedro in my book! We need to fight to preserve Otero/Tunnel!
    She has yet to respond to me. Did anyone else bother?

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    I got pretty much the same response from the Director at the Tijeras Ranger Station. Then I wat told to take any further issues to the trail forman. His name is Jeff Dube 281-3304. I have the feeling thar they are going to get tired of my calls. I also got the feeling that the Director does not want to be bothered with this. Oh well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52
    . I also got the feeling that the Director does not want to be bothered with this. Oh well.

    I got the same feeling.

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    Here is my response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Andrada
    Hi Cid,

    My name is Bryan Andrada and I am typing this to let you know that the Moto crowd, since the restrictions have been lifted, are already poaching precious singletrack in Otero. I caught up with three of them today and my friend also has pictures of their vehicles with license plate number. They have caused permanent damage to trails that will take more man hours to correct and are recklessly endangering the other trail users on these primarily non-motorized trails. I have spread the word amongst our community to document any unlawful activity they may encounter. I also belong to a local advocacy group, FOO mtb, and we are devoted to keeping these trails safe and fun for all users as we were, and will continue to be, the driving force that rallies for access in the area. Please see attached. I will provide you with more incriminating pictures at your request.

    Sincerely,

    Bryan Andrada
    Response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cid Morgan
    Question--do you have a copy of the Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM) and are they one trails that are legal in this area under the MVUM or other trails?

    If they are on the trails that are legal under the MVUM, unless we catch them in the act of doing resource damage, there isn't much we can do. Much like mountian bikers illegally creating trails with no environmental analysis.... : )

    If they are on trails that are not legal, we can hand out MVUMs to them and tell them not to come back. Until we get the trails signed, if we write tickets, we run the risk of the federal magistrate throwing them out because "how were they supposed to know?" Trail crew is on board and has (FINALLY--I won't bore you with the dramawe've had to get to this point) the go ahead to start placing the signs. They come back from days off on Thursday and should be out in force. They will be working weekends to show presence out in the entire area.

    Most of the work they will be doing is placing signs, but we have plans to have them emphasizing patrolling on the 4th of July weekend. It should be interesting since people won't be used to seeing people in uniform out that way....

    Cid H. Morgan, District Ranger
    Sandia Ranger District
    11776 Hwy 337
    Tijeras, NM 87059
    505-281-3304 Phone
    505-281-1176 Fax
    Sounds like Cid is like most of the higher-ups. Her hands are probably tied. It takes a lot of work to change things and unless there is a civil outcry, there is just too much on her plate. We just need to make sure and document any damage or dangerous activity and the locations so that when they do patrols, they know where to look for them.

    Here was my response to her:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Andrada
    Cid,

    Thank you for your response. I don't expect FS to 'jump into action'. I just want to make sure that the voice is heard. I didn't really care that they were on the trails, it was the fact that they were ripping them up. We spend a lot of time making these trails sustainable, regardless of whether they are legitimate at this point. They are beautiful trails. We welcome horses and hikers as they seem to have a better understanding of the environment. I figured if enough of us speak out then officials might consider a better assessment of the situation.

    No they were not on trails that are legal per the Motor Vehicle Use Map However, I do hope that these trails will be adopted at some point as they were only resurrected just recently. I would love to show the superintendent so that we might have his blessing.

    I sincerely appreciate the time you took to respond and I know enough about politics to understand that you guys work hard with little reward.

    Thanks again,

    Bryan Andrada

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    Brian, it sounds to me as though this thing is about to come full circle to where it was prior to the uplifting conversation you guys had at the ranger station.

    In particular, this latest statement by the ranger clearly indicates that MTB'rs unauthorized trail construction is only acceptable to the extent that rangers are inclined to "look the other way". Some people seem surprised at the notion that MTB's can't go wherever they please in the NF, but I'm not one of them.

    The reason I'm bringing this up (again) is that people better give some thought to the kinds of things that they're complaining about to the FS wrt motobikes Otero. If a lot of attention is called to their presence/impact on trails that aren't really supposed to be there in the first place, this whole thing could turn right around and bite you/us square in the ass.

    What's to stop motobikers from launching the same sort of campaign, with the end result that what the FS actually ends up devoting their manpower to is policing unsanctioned trails? Clearly, this is not our intent.

    I think you'll be a lot better off to approach this issue with a pistol than a shotgun, or there's going to be a lot of potential for collateral damage.

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    Yeah, I got that feeling too. Regardless, those trails will be located at some point. Would everyone agree that we should approach them as though they have been there forever with regards to the FS...or, just wait around for them to find them and possibly close them? I am sure that Evironmental Assessments will have to be made in order for them to be accepted into the Plan. Until then aren't we better off trying to protect them. They will not be closed unless they are deemed to be unsustainable or "don't meet the need". Most of the trails are sustainable (if not it would not take much work to make them so), we just need to make sure that the FS knows that they do in fact "meet the need".

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    Man, is it just me or has the mtbr server gone to hell recently!?!

    Brian, I agree that we should certainly try to preserve the awesome, albeit unauthorized, trails in Otero. And yes, I suppose the best way to go about that is, as far as our own use is concerned, to pretend like they've always been there. However, I don't think that making them a focal point in this controversy with motobikers is the best way to do that. In any attempt to resolve such an issue, I doubt the FS will fail to distinguish between the trails that the motobikes are supposed to be on, and, if push comes to shove, the trails that nobody's supposed to be on.

    There's also the more general problem of trying to convince the FS that there's a problem with what happens to a trail when a motobike rides on it, given that they've already given them permission. We have a unique point of view on this that's not likely to be appreciated by the FS.

    I just have the feeling that, except in those instances where we can point out that the impact on the trail system, in general, is destructive, even for a motobike, then we're probably better off sticking to the issue of the impact that the motos have upon the overall experience for all the other alternative users.

    It's important to note that if I believed that we really did have a right to be on all the trails in Otero, and the motos on only some of them, then I would say, hell, yes, let's at least do everything we can to encourage the FS to keep them on the designated moto-trails. But, again, I don't see it playing out that way. The ranger's clear suggestion that they've just been looking the other way wrt our use of the "other" trails also suggests that they could lower the boom if they become a headache for them.

    When it comes to trails like UPL, 3B, TJ, my feeling is that if you want to get activist about keeping motos off then we should make them impassable for motos. Choose locations where you absolutely have to be able to portage over an obstacle, and make it an obstacle that you can't lift a moto over. Obviously this isn't appropriate for FS trails, but who's going to complain about limiting traffic on a trail that's not supposed to be there in the first place? That's just my suggestion for a partial solution for a most unfortunate problem.
    Last edited by Garson; 06-24-2009 at 09:38 PM.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Here is my response:
    :
    Good exchange Bry.... well done!

    Garson does have a legitimate point though, work within the system and make the system work for you... we'll see how this all unfolds. At least they are beginning to police it.
    Dug-Da-Goat

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    ...so welcome to the Odyssey!

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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson
    Man, is it just me or has the mtbr server gone to hell recently!?!

    It's not just you

    Brian, I agree that we should certainly try to preserve the awesome, albeit unauthorized, trails in Otero. And yes, I suppose the best way to go about that is, as far as our own use is concerned, to pretend like they've always been there. However, I don't think that making them a focal point in this controversy with motobikers is the best way to do that. In any attempt to resolve such an issue, I doubt the FS will fail to distinguish between the trails that the motobikes are supposed to be on, and, if push comes to shove, the trails that nobody's supposed to be on.

    She has already elaborated on this see the attached response.


    There's also the more general problem of trying to convince the FS that there's a problem with what happens to a trail when a motobike rides on it, given that they've already given them permission. We have a unique point of view on this that's not likely to be appreciated by the FS.

    I think we can provide them with proof. Before/After...god knows I have enough pictures of the area:
    thumbsup:

    I just have the feeling that, except in those instances where we can point out that the impact on the trail system, in general, is destructive, even for a motobike, then we're probably better off sticking to the issue of the impact that the motos have upon the overall experience for all the other alternative users.

    It's important to note that if I believed that we really did have a right to be on all the trails in Otero, and the motos on only some of them, then I would say, hell, yes, let's at least do everything we can to encourage the FS to keep them on the designated moto-trails. But, again, I don't see it playing out that way. The ranger's clear suggestion that they've just been looking the other way wrt our use of the "other" trails also suggests that they could lower the boom if they become a headache for them.

    I think they will continue to look the other way as long as they "meet the need".


    When it comes to trails like UPL, 3B, TJ, my feeling is that if you want to get activist about keeping motos off then we should make them impassable for motos. Choose locations where you absolutely have to be able to portage over an obstacle, and make it an obstacle that you can't lift a moto over. Obviously this isn't appropriate for FS trails, but who's going to complain about limiting traffic on a trail that's not supposed to be there in the first place? That's just my suggestion for a partial solution for a most unfortunate problem.

    We make stunts all of the time:D


    Here are the subsequent responses:

    Cid Morgan

    We spend a lot of time making these trails sustainable, regardless of whether they are legitimate at this point...I do hope that these trails will be adopted at some point as they were only resurrected just recently.


    Umm, do you realize that if you were found out there maintaining these trails w/o permission that you could be cited? The whole issue is these trails are all user created and no environmental analysis work was done on them (NEPA). We are having to go back and get arch clearances on trails that have existed on our books for 30-40 years. We are supposed to be starting Forest Plan Revision in October of 2010, and at that time, I'd like to take a hard look at all the user created trails (regardless of what they are used for, hiking, mtn. biking, horseback riding, etc.) and determine if they meet the needs or not. We need to do a similar analysis for all of those trails like we did for the travel management process, get the environmental analysis done and either make them part of the system, make adjustments to make them part of the system, or close them.

    I don't understand your comment about "show the superintendent so we might have his blessing." The head of the Cibola National Forest is the Forest Supervisor (Superintendant is a Park Service position) and sheis Nancy Rose.... Again, in order to have the trails "blessed" they have to go thru an environmental analysis. If you don't want to wait for the Forest Plan revision process, you would have to come up with the funding for an Environmental Assessment (EA) and they can run upwards of $100,000. You'd probably have to get a grant for that unless somebody's got much deeper pockets than me!

    Cid H. Morgan, District Ranger
    Sandia Ranger District
    11776 Hwy 337
    Tijeras, NM 87059
    505-281-3304 Phone
    505-281-1176 Fax [/QUOTE]

    My response:

    I do understand and I have spoken with some folks at the FS office in Tijeras. I am well aware that any maintenance/repairs should be run through your office and would require supervision. However the routine clean-ups I was not aware needed supervision. I apologize. I should have been more clear. The trails in question are trails that are signed and as far as I know have been part of this system for many years. I assumed that the map that was given to me at the FS office was just out of date. This was a few years ago when I was new to the area. Since then I have enjoyed the splendor of the area and would hate to have it fall victim to irresponsibility.

    Of course I don't have those kinds of funds at my disposal, but I do bring knowledge and experience to the table. I would enjoy working with the FS to get these trails legitimized. They definitely "meet the need". I have looked into grants and we are exploring those options as well.

    Thanks for your time Cid. I look forward to creating a lasting and beneficial relationship with you guys/gals in the near future.

    Sincerely,

    Bryan Andrada

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    My response:

    I do understand and I have spoken with some folks at the FS office in Tijeras. I am well aware that any maintenance/repairs should be run through your office and would require supervision. However the routine clean-ups I was not aware needed supervision. I apologize. I should have been more clear. The trails in question are trails that are signed and as far as I know have been part of this system for many years. I assumed that the map that was given to me at the FS office was just out of date. This was a few years ago when I was new to the area. Since then I have enjoyed the splendor of the area and would hate to have it fall victim to irresponsibility.

    Of course I don't have those kinds of funds at my disposal, but I do bring knowledge and experience to the table. I would enjoy working with the FS to get these trails legitimized. They definitely "meet the need". I have looked into grants and we are exploring those options as well.

    Thanks for your time Cid. I look forward to creating a lasting and beneficial relationship with you guys/gals in the near future.

    Sincerely,

    Bryan Andrada

    You claim to understand but I don't think you do.

    Your dumba$$ sent an email to the forest service flaunting your illegal trail building and now it has bitten all of us in the a$$. Do you understand what Cid is trying to tell you?
    The forest service is not going to go after motos for riding trails that they have every right to, but if you keep spouting off they just might close down every trail that isn't on the official TMP to all users.

    Maybe it's time to give your mouth a rest before you screw things up for everyone.

  94. #94
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    and please stay the hell out of the santa fe national forest.Things are just fine up here and we don't need any help,letter writing,or horn blowing from you.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by makachut
    and please stay the hell out of the santa fe national forest.Things are just fine up here and we don't need any help,letter writing,or horn blowing from you.
    At least you said "please".


    Here's the deal. So who would you guys blame if (when) they find these trail and close them anyway? They are not that difficult to miss, being signed and all I didn't hear anyone pitching in their two cents on how the situation should be resolved. Seems if your going to point the finger there is ALWAYS three MORE pointing back at you. If we don't express an interest in these two trails, the FS will surely shut them down. They are not currently on any maps.

    Until you jackasses can think of a better way to approach it, I suggest you just continue to keep quite and mind your own.

    BTW... I will be hanging out in SFNF all weekend....crapping right in your own back yard (litterally), chut! Watch your step!

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    At least you said "please".




    Until you jackasses can think of a better way to approach it, I suggest you just continue to keep quite and mind your own.

    BTW... I will be hanging out in SFNF all weekend....crapping right in your own back yard (litterally), chut! Watch your step!
    I think the better approach is to play by the rules if you want to be in the GAME of Trailbuilder in public areas.
    You kind of put the wagon in front of the horse when you build a new trail without going through the proper steps.Sure ,I like your enthusiasm and all...but jiminiecrickets don't be poaching or illegal building of trail and thumb your nose at the gov't and then tell them to step up or shut up.The gov't can play hardball withus tee-ballers and ouch that could sting.

    and I'm glad you get it when it comes our local stomping grounds in SantaFe keep quiet and mind your own, ..

  97. #97
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    You need to follow a little more closely. I had nothing to do with these trails. Someone else built them and signed them (thumbing their nose at whomever).

    You guys go ahead and keep quite. It won't be long. If you knew what I knew, you would be formulating some alliances. It is crazy what is going on!

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    You need to follow a little more closely.
    !

    the thread is too long and gets boring.I just chimed in after I read AndyN s post .laughed then juust had to join in on the fun..

  99. #99
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    Unfortunately, it's not all fun and games.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    If you knew what I knew
    I saw a wild turkey on last Fridays ride, and even he knew more than you know...

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