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  1. #1
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    New Travel Management Plan

    Has anyone seen this. I have been spotting motos on Otero/Tunnel lately. Guess it's ok?

    The dotted lines are "motorcycle Only" desigantions...
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  2. #2
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    You sure about that? I thought the Cedro area was to be the motorized area, and Tunnel, Otero and David Canyon were to stay Nonmotorized.

  3. #3
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    B&w

    ..unless I am reading this wrong? I hope so.

  4. #4
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    Le Freak!

    I do not believe Closure Order No.03-211 was rescinded.

    http://gis.fs.fed.us/r3/cibola/trave...r_no03_211.pdf

    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  5. #5
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    So whats the deal? If they get caught, it looks like they have an argument.

  6. #6
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    Hey Nota. Give us your words of wisdom on this. Do you know anythinng?

  7. #7
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    Ignorance of the Law Is a Perfectly Good Excuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    So whats the deal? If they get caught, it looks like they have an argument.
    Yep, but ignorance of the law is no defense.

    I argue that I should not be subject to the laws of gravity and motion all the time.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob

    I argue that I should not be subject to the laws of gravity and motion all the time.
    When your young, dumb, and full of ***, the laws of gravity and motion do not apply.

    The good ole days...here is the next genre of Bandos


  9. #9
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    Read a bit more

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Has anyone seen this. I have been spotting motos on Otero/Tunnel lately. Guess it's ok?

    The dotted lines are "motorcycle Only" desigantions...
    It appears that motorcycles ARE allowed on Tunnel, Otero and David Canyon. Based upon this closure notice, paragraph 7. I'm sure that most users of these trails do not know this. I sure didn't.

    They are closed to ATVs. I think most motorcycle riders in the know just pass it up so as to avoid hiker/biker conflict. Now that this has been publicized, expect to see more.

    RCC's on beer slugging duties for the foreseeable future.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    RCC's on beer slugging duties for the foreseeable future.

    This could be very interesting.

    If I didn't know better, I would say that he knew it all along

  11. #11
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    Upset

    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    It appears that motorcycles ARE allowed on Tunnel, Otero and David Canyon. Based upon this closure notice, paragraph 7. I'm sure that most users of these trails do not know this. I sure didn't.

    They are closed to ATVs. I think most motorcycle riders in the know just pass it up so as to avoid hiker/biker conflict. Now that this has been publicized, expect to see more.

    RCC's on beer slugging duties for the foreseeable future.
    I ran into a moto today that was making a video of David, Otero andTunnel for the morotized gang. And the Ranger station is giving free maps thay showes this ares open to all two wheeled travel. Better keep your ears open out there now. From what this guy says, word is spreading fast.

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    Yeah, it was bound to happen, I was just wondering when. I was up a Cedro last week and came across some people on 4-wheelers tearing down the barriers and removing the no 4-wheeler allowed signs. Both of which were put up by the forest service. It looked like they were also carrying chain saws (illegal cutting too) to widen the trail where it gets to narrow for them.

    Other trails that were closed to motorized vehicles, like the one from the Juan Thomas parking area, are now being taken over by motorcycles and 4-wheelers. I saw the trail sign that had the X'ed out motorcycles/4-wheelers was literally broken off at the base. I'm less concerned about the motorcyles as the 4-wheelers. They really kill the single track - making them wide and wiping out the berms.

    I'm contemplating stopping at the ranger station on the way out. My only concern is they may close it to all mechanized vehicles...

  13. #13
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    This change makes no sense. Throwing motorcycles on these trails loaded with hikers and bikes on ST.I guess now that they have torn up the Cedro area the Forest Service thought they need somewhere else to screw up the trails. I thought the FS knew what it was doing when they kept the motos in Cedro and hikers and bikes in Otero. Whoever decided to allow motos back in the Otero system made a bad call. I sure dont want Otero to look like the Cedro trails.

  14. #14
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    Reading about motos on Otero makes me wanna throw-up...

    That trail is prime singletrack and now it will be destroyed.

    I did a race up in Arkansas in April on a trail that was open to moto's and it was horrible. A deep rut in teh middle of what would be single track that was deep enough to keep you from making a full pedal stroke, all of the corners were washed out and full of loose dirt.. not to mention moto riders forcing mtb'ers off the trail.

    This development is sickening... literally.
    "Someone must have put alcohol in my beer last night." ~ Mr. Richard Baty, Esq.


  15. #15
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    Horrible, absoultely horrible

    It just goes to show where the interests of those in charge lie. This is a most disappointing turn of events for that area, but one that probably was destined to happen eventually.

  16. #16
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    Well if you own a moto it would be cool, I am sure RCC will be having fun on his moto. I like motos so looking for used dirt bike this season to mix things up some with my training (and skill set).

    I know what you all are saying (everyone) but I would have NO prob with it if Mtn. bikers could go on ANY trail the hikers can go on. Man we are in America right? We are in a free country right or is that just what we tell the rest of the world?

    I am not sure what my take is on the ATVs however due to they make single track into double tracks.

  17. #17
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    With Motos it can be a good thing all depends upon the rider. Seeing RCC a few weeks / months back out at Cedro on his was a NON issue with other bikers. We saw him a few times and never did we feel as if we were forced off any trails.

    The ATV are just a wilderness wheelchair. Allowing the masses to get wayout into the middle of nowhere and jack it up for everyone else. WHY would one want to ride an ATV even at Cedro much less Otero? Last season we cam across an ATV rider and needed to pass. All he could do was tear up the trail attempting to get the thing down the trail.

    No one disagrees that the trails are multi-use, but should be limited to single track capable vehicles only.

  18. #18
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    Hey guys,
    I'm possibly one of the motorcycle guys you have seen out in the Otero/Tunnel canyon area. So far I've ran into mostly negative reactions and comments from fellow MTB and hiking trail users. Had a somewhat heated exchange of words from an MTB'er on Friday with someone that I think is participating in this discussion. No matter what I said and what maps I tried showing him (the official travel management plan map I had just picked up from the ranger station) he was dead set on giving me a hard time and accusing me of being wrong threatening to call a ranger on me. I was fine with that as it would prove that I was correct but as far as I know he never did.

    I think right now you'll mostly see motorcycle riders like myself. Those that are responsible, give the right of way to everyone they meet on the trail, are constantly scanning the trail ahead looking for people and keeping speeds way down. We need to share these trails and I know I'd hate to be the hiker or biker who just got dusted by a motorcyclist that appeared to be out of control and tearing things up. I'd just like to see a little respect in return. Riding single track on a motorcycle takes a skill set and user mentality that the bad apples of our sport are usually not interested in. Slow and technical vs. high speed desert blasting.

    So anyway, just trying to find some more info on the trails in that area and hopefully squash any misconceptions that some people have about us, responsible motorized users. I do agree with the other poster that these trails are NOT for ATV users. The "wilderness wheelchair" comment is very fitting. I like my single track being exactly that, a single track! If you guys see a motorcyclist patiently waiting for someone to pass on a blue and yellow Husqvarna then that is probably me.

  19. #19
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    Just came from the trails day event at Elena where we were told by the forest service that new signage would be going in next week (or so) along with patrols on motorcycles. Tickets to be issued by forest service personnel. Interestingly enough they mentioned that singletrack in the Cedro area would be closed due to being on private property. When questioned he couldn't name the trails. Anyone else heard about pending closures in Cedro area?

  20. #20
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    As far as I know, that travel management map is official. If a trail will be closed then it won't be one that is on that map.

    Quote Originally Posted by desert flower
    Just came from the trails day event at Elena where we were told by the forest service that new signage would be going in next week (or so) along with patrols on motorcycles. Tickets to be issued by forest service personnel. Interestingly enough they mentioned that singletrack in the Cedro area would be closed due to being on private property. When questioned he couldn't name the trails. Anyone else heard about pending closures in Cedro area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    Hey guys,
    I'm possibly one of the motorcycle guys you have seen out in the Otero/Tunnel canyon area. .
    You surely deserve some credit for your willingness to establish a dialogue in this mtb forum. Unfortunately, it's pretty certain that once motos start migrating to tunnel/otero, they'll all follow, and then the fact that there's a relative handfull of considerate riders won't much matter relative to the impact of the rest.

    Furthermore, regardless of how hard you try, I find it hard to imagine how a rig as heavy and powerful as a moto can navigate the steep, loose, rocky climbs characteristic of the area without having the impact on the terrain that motos usually have. It's kind of like saying you have a 1000 watt stereo, but never turn it up loud enough to disturb anybody. It all depends on what you call loud and being disturbed. In this case, it all depends upon what you call impacting fragile terrain.

    I also can't imagine the FS having a clue as to the existing use pattern of this area, and still making it available to motos. Unlike cedro, tunnel/otero is way more popular with hikers, including families with little kids and little ol' ladies watching birds.

    On the one hand, the only reason people aren't run down by motos in cedro is because only a damn fool would fail to get clear of the trail when they heard one coming. And on the other, I'm sure granny's going to be real impressed with your gallantry when you stop to give her the opportunity to squeeze past your rig on one of the tunnel canyon ledges.

    Sorry, but try as you might, any noticeable presence of motos in tunnel/otero will ultimately have a significant negative impact on everyone else's use.

  22. #22
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    Dualsporter, thanks for trying to keep the peace. Keep up your tread lightly practices and brush off the negative comments. It sucks that we have to share the trails at Otero, but it is what it is.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson
    You surely deserve some credit for your willingness to establish a dialogue in this mtb forum. Unfortunately, it's pretty certain that once motos start migrating to tunnel/otero, they'll all follow, and then the fact that there's a relative handfull of considerate riders won't much matter relative to the impact of the rest.

    Furthermore, regardless of how hard you try, I find it hard to imagine how a rig as heavy and powerful as a moto can navigate the steep, loose, rocky climbs characteristic of the area without having the impact on the terrain that motos usually have. It's kind of like saying you have a 1000 watt stereo, but never turn it up loud enough to disturb anybody. It all depends on what you call loud and being disturbed. In this case, it all depends upon what you call impacting fragile terrain.

    I also can't imagine the FS having a clue as to the existing use pattern of this area, and still making it available to motos. Unlike cedro, tunnel/otero is way more popular with hikers, including families with little kids and little ol' ladies watching birds.

    On the one hand, the only reason people aren't run down by motos in cedro is because only a damn fool would fail to get clear of the trail when they heard one coming. And on the other, I'm sure granny's going to be real impressed with your gallantry when you stop to give her the opportunity to squeeze past your rig on one of the tunnel canyon ledges.

    Sorry, but try as you might, any noticeable presence of motos in tunnel/otero will ultimately have a significant negative impact on everyone else's use.
    Thank You. I could not say it better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun
    Dualsporter, thanks for trying to keep the peace. Keep up your tread lightly practices and brush off the negative comments. It sucks that we have to share the trails at Otero, but it is what it is.

    It is unfortunate that there are people even here that twist reality to justify their needs.

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    I just don't like to hear much of anything sometimes when I'm on my MTB, especially a moto. It always seems that I end up running into you guys (literally) in the most inopportune moments.

    I love motorcycles and If I had one, I would probably want to ride out there too but coming from Cochiti a few weeks ago, I will never understand why you guys would go anywhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I love motorcycles and If I had one, I would probably want to ride out there too but coming from Cochiti a few weeks ago, I will never understand why you guys would go anywhere else.
    Probably for the same reasons why you don't go to the same place over and over. Variety is the spice of life.

  27. #27
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    Same terrain!

    BTW..if I could take my MTB out to Cochiti everyday, I would.

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    It might be the same general type of terrain but it's different trails and challenges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    It might be the same general type of terrain but it's different trails and challenges.
    I could put you in touch with someone who would probably blow your mind at the amount of trails in Cochiti. The main problem, I think, is that Cedro (and now Otero) are just too close to justify the drive anywhere else. Am I wrong?

    All I'm saying is that I like the peace and quite of the woods, and the smell of gas fumes and sounds of engines generally disrupts this experience for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I could put you in touch with someone who would probably blow your mind at the amount of trails in Cochiti. The main problem, I think, is that Cedro (and now Otero) are just too close to justify the drive anywhere else. Am I wrong?

    All I'm saying is that I like the peace and quite of the woods, and the smell of gas fumes and sounds of engines generally disrupts this experience for me.

    I've rode Cochiti many times. Cedro and Otero being close are nice but it's not the only reason why I go out there. I can be riding single track on the west mesa in under 10 min's from where I live where it takes me 30-45 min to get to the Cedro area but I've rode those trails on the west mesa so often that I know them like nobody should!! Like I said, It's something different. It's the same reason why you don't go to the same trail over, and over, and over.....

    I understand what you're saying but these are our trails. I have to make compromises to ride them just like everyone else and I do the best I can to keep my impact to others around me to a minimum so they can enjoy them as well. What some of you are saying sounds pretty selfish and misinformed to me.

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    Touche...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    What some of you are saying sounds pretty selfish and misinformed to me.

    You should reconsider your approach.

    All you have to do is look at Cedro and what it has become over the last year or so to understand what the potential impact will be @ Otero.

    I have been run over by a moto and come extremely close to head on collisions on more that one occasion? The guy that ran over me a few years back had no business riding on those trails. He was a total newb and way over his head. It would be nice to know that I had a choice of whether or not I felt like putting myself at risk by riding Cedro or Otero.

  32. #32
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    Just curious why you hang around here on the MTBR web site? I dont think your going to change the way we feel about motos in Otero. Comming here and calling us selfish just wont get you anywhere. If selfish is not wanting Otero to look like Cedro. Well then I guess Im selfish. Why dont you get a Mtn Bike and ride with us, see what kind of skills you have then.Then you might have a little more credability here.

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    I do have a Mtn. Bike and have riden all those trails on it. What difference does that really make?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52
    Why dont you get a Mtn Bike and ride with us, see what kind of skills you have then.Then you might have a little more credability here.
    Yeah, I know a couple of spots

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    heh,..heh

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    I do have a Mtn. Bike and have riden all those trails on it. What difference does that really make?
    Well come on out, I'd love to show you around.

  36. #36
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    Well then why dont you ride your Mtn Bike at Otero and the motorcycle at Cedro. Then go hang out at a Moto web site. Seems like you want to push the issue by hanging out here. You wont change any minds here. The Forest Service made a bad call by bringing Motorcycles back in Tunnel-Otero. Its as plain as that.

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    Hey Steve, I going to hook up with a fella today ( I hope ). There is no risk of Moto's where we will be riding..Interested?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Hey Steve, I going to hook up with a fella today ( I hope ). There is no risk of Moto's where we will be riding..Interested?
    Sounds like a plan.PM with the when and where.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    So anyway, just trying to find some more info on the trails in that area and hopefully squash any misconceptions that some people have about us, responsible motorized users. I do agree with the other poster that these trails are NOT for ATV users. The "wilderness wheelchair" comment is very fitting. I like my single track being exactly that, a single track!
    It is ignorant to think that you motorcycle does as little damage to the trails as a bike. you have an extra 250lbs and so much more torque then a mt. bike. Plus not everyone is going to be an "experienced" rider, so in your ignorance and selfishness to ride these trails you, and the forest service, are making sure these trails will not be there for years to enjoy for the mt. bikers.

    I have seen it before, moto heads, I am a "Wilderness wheelchair" rider, do not respect the land. We will soon see deep ruts from the motorcyclests in there after heavy rains, more trash scattered throughout the trai, this is Abq after all. I have no trouble sharing the trails with responsible motorcyclests, the problem is that they are few and far in between! If you open the trail to one, you open it to all. These are nice trails, while they last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualsporter
    What some of you are saying sounds pretty selfish and misinformed to me.
    The comments you're reading are all from riders who've heard the noise, been run off the trail and witnessed the ongoing erosion by motos in cedro. So, how is it that we're all so misinformed?

    Furthermore, how is our wanting to preserve one network of trails for our own use, to be considered selfish, but somebody on a motorcycle wanting to horn in on every square inch of trail they can find is not?

    And does someone really have to spell out for you the many ways in which the weight and power of a motorcycle has a greater impact on a trail than a bicycle? Hell, half the posts here in the early spring pertain to whether or not one trail or another should even be ridden due to delicate conditions. So, please, offer up a link to the moto-forum where motobikers will get criticized for riding in mud, spinning tires, or fishtailing up climbs at tunnel/otero.

    Ever since I started riding, the word was that no one had the right to criticize the motos in cedro because they were largely responsible for the trails in the first place. But people don't feel that way about tunnel/otero, and if it weren't for what you call selfishness, you'd respect that and go fire up your engines somewhere else.

    And in case you haven't noticed, the replies to your comments have been particularly civil in spite of your pronouncements of our ignorance and selfishness. I've seen people here get more jacked up discussing their choice of lube. So, since you're not trying to sway the befuddled townsfolk here, consider losing the passive aggressive rhetoric so it stays that way.

    Oh, and for pete's sake, the word is ridden.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson
    Oh, and for pete's sake, the word is ridden.

    Who's Pete?
    Last edited by Mtn. Biker123; 06-09-2009 at 05:47 AM.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Who's Pete?
    Who's jack, and why are they choosing lube together?




    -

    Um, seriously, motos really don't need to be unleashed into otero/tunnel. Nothing good will come of this. It is not a moto trail, IMHO. If it becomes a moto trail, then it won't be nearly so nice (and it is really nice) of a MTB and hike trail. When I've ridden it, I've had very positive interactions with hikers. Although many moto riders are perfectly nice folks, it just isn't the same kind of thing.
    In best Klingon voice: Today is a good day to ride!

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    Moto's BEWARE

    Crash88 and I were just about to saddle up to our steeds when were "approached" by Ranger Rick and his entourage in the Cedro p-lot. I am pretty sure that he did not notice the bikes as they were parked on the opposite side of my truck from him. We were all kitted up with CB's overflowin' when he drove up. His demeanor was stern and he informed me that "old days" of running loose out there were over and insisted that we stay on the trails. He went so far as to provide me a map (Motor Vehicle) and gave me a quick lesson on what was available in the area. I kept quite mostly, except to make sure that he knew I was from out of town (I was that freaked out by his presence). Afterward, I wondered why he was so serious about mountain bikes staying on designated trails and giving me a map that only indicated motorized travel guidelines. It occurred later that he must have mistaken us for a couple of moto heads.

    Long story short, you motos better watch yourselves out there. They will be patrolling on motorcycles of their own by next week and issuing citations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LCdaveH
    Who's jack, and why are they choosing lube together?




    -

    Um, seriously, motos really don't need to be unleashed into otero/tunnel. Nothing good will come of this. It is not a moto trail, IMHO. If it becomes a moto trail, then it won't be nearly so nice (and it is really nice) of a MTB and hike trail. When I've ridden it, I've had very positive interactions with hikers. Although many moto riders are perfectly nice folks, it just isn't the same kind of thing.
    After yesterday and seeing all of the trails that were lost to the motos, I kinda feel a little sorry for them. Otero has always been open to moto's they just mostly respected it as a hiking/biking area. They, the FS, is taking this thing very serious. It would be akin to us losing over half of the FH's and having Open Space running around on bicycles handing out citations. I'm not saying that I agree with it, just saying I understand their situation a little better after yesterday. I see it as kind of being the moto's fault, too. They were not very discreet out at Cedro and I think they got a big slap on the hand because of it.

    If they can do this to Moto's there is not much stopping them from doing it to us if they ever felt the need.

  45. #45
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    If the FS would have done some sort of enforcement on the trails in Cedro and not let the motos have free range,it would not be in the shape it is in now. Dont think there is much reason for them to crack down on Mtn Bikes. We dont go in and rip up ST, Tear down signs, Cut trees to make room for 4 wheels on ST and overall deface the area. Not all Motos take part in these activities. But those that did screwed the area up for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LCdaveH
    Who's jack, and why are they choosing lube together?


    Hey, you guys managed to find both the proper names deviously hidden in the post! Good going!

    Now can you find the 5 past participles?

    Only 3 more days to ride here in WV. Just in time, too. I'm down to the last 6 Dale's that I loaded into my 50 lb. suitcase.

  47. #47
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    * "witnessed"

    * "considered"

    * "heard"

    * "ridden"

    * "noticed"

    It's raining outside.

  48. #48
    Hey, wait up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    * "witnessed"

    * "considered"

    * "heard"

    * "ridden"

    * "noticed"

    It's raining outside.
    What is the best lube choice for participles?

    Dry, wet or waxy?
    In best Klingon voice: Today is a good day to ride!

    New Mexico Off Road Series

    Dirt Rocks!

    Let Go, and Let Bike.

  49. #49
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    [QUOTE=Mtn. Biker123]...I am pretty sure that he did not notice the bikes as they were parked on the opposite side of my truck from him. He went so far as to provide me a map (Motor Vehicle) and gave me a quick lesson on what was available in the area. I kept quite mostly, except to make sure that he knew I was from out of town (I was that freaked out by his presence). It occurred later that he must have mistaken us for a couple of moto heads.QUOTE]

    Maybe he thought you were getting ready to rip it up in your monster truck. It's amazing where the OHVs have forced openings in tight areas.

    Why did you tell him you were from out of town?

    Moo

  50. #50
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    In case I got caught later.

    When he left I was still under the impression that he was speaking specifically to MTB's. The map had very few trails that were open.

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