• 10-30-2012
    De La Pena
    Mountain Bikers for Trail Maintenance
    Mountain Bikers for Trail Maintenance is a group that have adopted trail 365 at Copper according the the posted sign on the trail. Until today I have never noticed this sign. It may have been there for some time but it looks fairly new. If any people here are "members" of this group or if you know how I can contact them please pm me or reply here.

    bob
  • 10-30-2012
    skerry00
    You could contact Alb Open Space for contact info. You'll want to talk with Jim Sattler.
  • 11-12-2012
    De La Pena
    Trail Damage at Copper Trail 365
    "Mountain Bikers for Trail Maintenance" is the group who have adopted this section. They are either doing the sanitation, or doing nothing about it. Every day for the last month rocks have been removed. Destructively removed via sledgehammer. I have called and emailed Jim Sattler and Jolynn Maestas with the City Open Space to make him aware but it has had little to know effect. Be cause I may be the only one that has attempted to contact him I invite you all to make an attempt as well and hopefully if he gets 50 emails on this very topic it will get proper attention.

    This contact info has been taken from the city's webpage to I have no problem posting it here.

    Trail Watch Volunteers

    Trail Watch Volunteers are the foundation of the volunteer program - essentially, all volunteers are trained to be Trail Watch. Trail Watch is ideal for those volunteers who enjoy using the trails. Often referred to as Open Space "eyes and ears", these volunteers patrol areas of their choice and record observations, report problems and needs, and educate the public on proper resource use.

    Call Jolynn Maestas at 452-5207 or email jmaestas@cabq.gov for information.
    Adopt-an-Open Space

    As an extension of the Trail Watch Volunteer program, the Adopt-an-Open Space program was formed to concentrate stewardship in a targeted area. TWV duties are applied, but adopters also agree to organize at least one group project per year. Some areas may require more scheduled projects within a year. In the foothills, individuals or groups can adopt trails and assist with the essential maintenance of these visitor corridors. In the bosque, groups of 10 or more can adopt restoration areas and help with non-native plant control and trail maintenance. At the City's expense, a sign is installed in the adopted area recognizing the adopters efforts.

    Call Jim Sattler at 452-5213 or email jsattler@cabq.gov for information.


    Please take a moment to contact both of them by email, phone, or both and send them any pictures or pertinent information so this madness can be addressed.



    Albuquerque Open Space Trail Damage at Copper Trail 365
    __________________
  • 11-12-2012
    cactuskiss
    Thanks Bobby - just sent an email.
  • 11-12-2012
    skerry00
    I assure you Jim is not encouraging this activity and seriously doubt it's the Open Space trail group (unless there's a member doing it at off times). In fact Open Space employees have been pretty active in documenting and trying to figure it out as they are very concerned as well. I'm not sure flooding Jims email is going to help. He's well aware of the problem. Further, it's not the adopt a group's responsibility to enforce rules on the trails, they do occasional maintenance work in cooperation with Open Space but at no time would Open Space or the US Forest Service give enforcement power to volunteers.

    I'd recommend keeping an eye out and if you see something happening, report to Open Space police 242-COPS(2677) or our office 281-3304.
  • 11-12-2012
    MTBNate
    Maybe some well placed game cameras will help?
  • 11-13-2012
    De La Pena
    Sounds good Kerry, No one ever responded to my call or email so.... glad to know they are aware of it.
  • 11-13-2012
    MTBNate
    If open space was serious about protecting the trails, I think they'd have had posted some signage and a waged a media blitz about the vandalism.
  • 11-14-2012
    mtbike52
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    If open space was serious about protecting the trails, I think they'd have had posted some signage and a waged a media blitz about the vandalism.

    I rode the SFH Monday for the first time since spring. You would think with all the time and effort that it took to do all that damage, someone would have seen the guy. Hope we can get this guy before he has it ready for paving. Seems to be all over the SFH.
  • 11-14-2012
    Calhoun
    I think some signage would be good. At least to let trail users know that the problem is being addressed.

    I talked with a biker last week that said every time he finds a spot where a rock was removed and backfilled with dirt he goes through and kicks out that dirt. Although it does not help anything it does shed light on how many rocks have been removed.

    And for those that are thinking "it's not that bad.." go ride the trails and see for yourself. It is pretty sad that this type of vandalism has been allowed to carry on for so long. But when someone puts a couple off trail features together they are immediately destroyed.
  • 11-14-2012
    De La Pena
    I received this response today from James at Open Space:

    "This activity has been going on for several weeks now and we have been unable to catch who ever is doing this. We will be doing an inventory of the damage and see what we can do to repair the damages. I will let you know if we schedule any special work days to address this issue. In the mean time if you see anyone performing work on the trails and they are not in an Open Space uniform please contact the Open Space Dispatcher at 452-5206 (between 8AM and 6:00PM) or 242 COPS to report to APD. If you see anyone doing work on Forest Service land please contact the Forest Service at 281-3304."


    So. As boring as it may be to ride the SFH this early before in the snow closes everywhere else, I request that as many people as possible start riding/patrolling/stalking the Indian school to copper trail at least until the a$$hat is caught/identified or this winter we will be really screwed out of anything worthwhile to ride. Tell other trail users you meet along the way to keep and eye out too. This are our trails and it is in our best interest to help keep an eye out.
  • 11-14-2012
    F.N.G
    Yup... Kind of funny that we ran into the officers on a section that the sanitizer has not hit yet. I expressed that to the officer that they are spending their time in an area that isn't even being vandalized.
    They said that they are making efforts by interviewing as many bikers, hikers, and homeowners below for info. Nothing so far. I told the officer that if I witnessed the vandal, I would not call only call him immediately, but take a pic of the guy, follow him to his car, take license plate #, and call him again. He said that was fine.
    This putz has done so much damage, don't know if there is much left to destroy on main trails. Nothing but potholes and rubble left behind from his efforts...should probably get a road bike for the south foothills now.
  • 11-14-2012
    skerry00
    It's really not about us caring. We do care but it's about how much time we have to be out in any one spot. It's me and one other person for over 400 miles of trail (on the Sandia RD). While it's a great concern we cannot just sit out there and wait, we have other stuff to do. Spreading any kind of negative rants doesn't help either. Being our eyes will help. As I've posted before, my work cell is 250-5972. If you see something call me (or Open Space) I will do my best to get up there. If you can't reach me, call our district office at 281-3304 and they'll try to get a hold of me.
  • 11-14-2012
    crux
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tiggs View Post
    So... it turns out that the Forest Service and/or the Open Space does care about what's going on out there, but it's probably gonna be more focused on all of the building rather than the destroying that's going on. I guess we can look forward to a lot more terrain being destroyed in the coming weeks. Goodbye technical terrain features, goodbye fun, goodbye challenge, goodbye skill, goodbye persistence, goodbye progression, and hello smooth rolling paved singletrack as far as the eye can see.

    Would be nice if there could be some common ground building features with the Forest Service and Open Space. Albuquerque has more than enough riders and natural rocky terrain where we could all benefit. Thinking that it should be easy to catch the trail sanitizer. Wonder is FS or OS has some wildlife game cameras that could be planted in the interest of catching this guy???
  • 11-14-2012
    MTBNate
    I'm no FBI profile expert, but I'd venture to guess the SFH trail sanitizer is an older guy (50+) who has time to do his damage during the day between sunrise and 3PM on week days (based on the fact no one has see him on the weekends nor afterwork). If APS was serious about catching this dude, they need to be in position during those hours.
  • 11-14-2012
    palerider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    I'm no FBI profile expert, but I'd venture to guess the SFH trail sanitizer is an older guy (50+) who has time to do his damage during the day between sunrise and 3PM on week days (based on the fact no one has see him on the weekends nor afterwork). If APS was serious about catching this dude, they need to be in position during those hours.

    Good work agent starling. (sorry couldn't help it) It places the lotion on its skin, it does this when its told, or it gets the hose.
  • 11-14-2012
    Fuglio
    A couple thoughts.

    Trail sanitation and built features have nothing to do with one another. They do not grow in inverse proportions. A lack of one will not produce an abundance of the other.

    Theres not a whole lot that can be done to stop a single trail user from digging up one rock a day for a year. The only option may be to shame the person into stoping on thier own.

    I think printing up a sign with pictures of the damage along with a messesge such as "Your a piece of ****" is about the only thing to do. We cant take off from work to gaurd rocks.

    Putting it all on open space to fix is alot to ask. Just the fact that spent any time at all investigating trail sanitation is a shock to me. I am greatfull for that.

    It sucks that a single person can cause so much harm to a trail that seems so rugged and durable
    . A trail all of us love from all abilities and riding styles. It all sucks to be.essintially powerless to stop it but, if.this is the worst thing thats happend to you this month be greatfull. Thanksgiving is right around the corner so lets not lose perspective.



    P.S. sadly english is NOT my second language :(
  • 11-14-2012
    bg2lk15
    My two cents.
    - APD does not not patrol the foothill trails, Open Space officers do. And yes, they have much bigger problems than trail sanitizers and are understaffed for what they do. I'd prefer if they concentrated on curtailing break-ins at trailheads. Arrest someone for moving a rock?
    - I haven't ridden the foothills since last spring so haven't seen the damage being discussed. Will ride tomorrow to take a look but I never thought the foothills trails were all that technical anyway. Good place to ride when the east mountains are weathered in. Ok, so I don't ride the power line trail very often.
    - What everyone seems to forget is the trails are multi-use, from the bikers to paint-ballers, to the dog doolie droppers. All it takes is one enterprising person walking or running on the trail and tripping on a rock then deciding to improve his/her running or walking course. Sort of like deciding to build technical features...
    - Vandalism? Damage? Can't be as bad as some of the moto-created trails going straight up slope and eroding badly over the decades. But I'll ride it tomorrow...
  • 11-14-2012
    skerry00
    Amen Fuglio.

    I'm not sure how we got on to the built features conversation. I'd like to think most folks who have met/worked with me or the good folks at AOS know we are both out to do good things for trails in the ABQ area including creating a diversity of trail opportunities. I'd also guess that people involved with trails in the area know that volunteers are what get things done. I had no intention to complain about my workload but simply convey the reality that we need a community of trail users working together to get things done. It's true there's me and one other person (those other vehicles are being driven by folks on the district who clean recreation areas, put out forest fires, deal with timber, etc, etc). This last season volunteers contributed close to 2000 hours to build the new trail in Tunnel Canyon. Next season we'd like to continue our work including possibly extending and building new features on 3 Bottles and hopefully start tackling the downhill trails on Sandia (meaning making them official and possibly building more).

    I invite everyone to come out and work with us.

    BTW - Open Space has signs they will be posting about the trail damage. They're pretty well done and maybe we'll get a tip/call.
  • 11-15-2012
    Calhoun
    I agree, mostly. Two things though Fug.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    A couple thoughts.

    Trail sanitation and built features have nothing to do with one another. They do not grow in inverse proportions. A lack of one will not produce an abundance of the other.

    The two are directly proportional.

    Think about. If there the limited amount of technical riding is taken away, people will find opportunities to re-create technical riding. The mere existence of rogue trails is a demonstration of this.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    It sucks that a single person can cause so much harm to a trail that seems so rugged and durable
    . A trail all of us love from all abilities and riding styles. It all sucks to be.essintially powerless to stop it but, if.this is the worst thing thats happend to you this month be greatfull. Thanksgiving is right around the corner so lets not lose perspective.

    To me this is like saying you have a flat tire, but at least you have a tire.
  • 11-15-2012
    tricky dick
    portrait of a trail sanitizer.....
    Back in 2009 I busted and confronted the guy pictured in this thread for sanitizing the NFH rock garden area. Wasn't until I threatened to call Open Space Dispatch that he stopped and moved along. He was belligerent, and didn't care about why he shouldn't be doing that. I reported him to FS and OS with the picture way back then. Wonder if he's still around and up to the same old crap?
    http://forums.mtbr.com/new-mexico/po...er-563228.html
  • 11-15-2012
    skerry00
    That looks just like a guy that cussed me out two years ago for closing the forest (forest fire closure) "cause it's easier...." I'll keep a copy of the photo and be on the lookout when I'm out there.
  • 11-15-2012
    MTBNate
    What is the legal penalty for a trail sanitizer anyway?

    Fine?
    Jail?
  • 11-15-2012
    Fuglio
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    What is the legal penalty for a trail sanitizer anyway?

    Fine?
    Jail?

    Pineapple sodomy

    :thumbsup:
  • 11-15-2012
    De La Pena
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    What is the legal penalty for a trail sanitizer anyway?

    Fine?
    Jail?


    According to the newly posted signs, you can be fined up to $300.00 dollars. I don't remember if it said anything about jail. Probably fine or up to 90 days. Kinda like littering.

    I do wish the signs were out in the middle of the trail and out on the trail where people will actually see them. The one at copper is off to the side with the other 10 signs. I would not have seen this one if I had not been looking for it in the first place. Maybe they can be moved to the middle of the trail and have neon or bright lettering of some kind.

    I am glad to see a sign up but one 11x17 inch sign next to 5 others, all which are off to the side of the trail, will not be noticed.
  • 11-18-2012
    bg2lk15
    Since I've put in some signs for him, I know Jim Sattler likes to place signs a little ways from the trail "otherwise mountain bikers lean on them and eventually push them over". Sattler, like Skerry, has a very tough job. Just about everyone they run into has some complaint, suggestion, or frustration. Some want change and others don't: build a new section of trail and close the old one and there is always someone who doesn't like it. I just couldn't handle their job: one two many people would come up to me whining and I'd excuse myself to go find a baseball bat...

    BTW, I noticed one section of the SKS climb has washed out a little. I'd better check with Sattler and Da Goat before fixing it or risk a $300 fine.

    On the bright side, I haven't seen any evidence my mud/snow fests last spring created lasting damage.

    But it was great getting back into the SFH. Could I have been missing the sensations evoked by suddenly riding through the heavy aroma of a dog minefield?
  • 11-19-2012
    MTBNate
    I can't wait for the day dogs confined to dog parks and their owner's back yards.
  • 11-19-2012
    MTBNate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by resuretsiger View Post
    That is a little harsh.

    I see far more excrement from native species than dogs. Should they be locked up too?

    I think it helps to watch where your going.:thumbsup:

    I'm pretty sure coyotes don't bag their biddness and leave it on the trail for others to deal with. Takes an opposable thumbs for that.
  • 11-19-2012
    De La Pena
    I don't mind the dogs if the owners have them on a leash. However, I have grown to despise owners that let their dogs roam free. I have hit two dogs before, one last year and one 4-5 years ago. I never saw them until they were two feet in front of me.... OTB for me and injured dog for the owner. I hate stupid irresponsible dog owners. If you don't leash your dog, you are not only breaking the law, you are also putting other trail users and your pet in harms way.
  • 11-20-2012
    MTBNate
    Agree. It's the owners and not the dogs that are the problem.

    If owners followed the rules; 1) keep dogs leashed and 2) clean up after their dogs, then there would be no problems.

    Roughly 50% of the dog I encounter on the trails are not leashed these days. Maybe a Citation Blitz will encourage owners to cleanup their act?
  • 11-20-2012
    F.N.G
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    Agree. It's the owners and not the dogs that are the problem.

    If owners followed the rules; 1) keep dogs leashed and 2) clean up after their dogs, then there would be no problems.

    Roughly 50% of the dog I encounter on the trails are not leashed these days. Maybe a Citation Blitz will encourage owners to cleanup their act?

    Heard some guys talking at the Indian School Parking lot Sunday talking about their dogs and being on leashes. One guy said he had just gotten a ticket for his dog not being on a leash. I guess the Officers patrolling up there looking for the trail sanitizer got him.
  • 11-20-2012
    warimono
    I used to be more torn on this, but some people are super passionate about mtbing with their dogs. Some spend considerable time training their dogs to behave appropriately on trail. If I had a dog I would want to do the same. Sucks that so many places have leash laws because of the few poorly trained ones.

    I really have not had any issues with dogs on trails since I have been mountain biking. Sometimes a minor inconvenience having to foot down or something but never more than trying to avoid a kid.

    Sucks that people are getting busted for crap like that while they are looking for the real *******s.
  • 11-20-2012
    De La Pena
    If the owner can control their dog so it stays on the trail where it can be seen, then honestly I have no problem with the no leash thing. If the dog is out with a runner or biker and just running down the trail with its owner, I don't have a problem with that either. For me its the dogs that go off trail, run back and forth across it and are seemingly running wild. I know the dogs and dog owners don't mean any harm but if I cant see the mutt until it darts out at the last second to get back to the owner that's where I have a problem. Both times the dog was within 10-20 feet of the owner when one came out from behind a boulder and the other from behind a shrub/bush.
  • 11-20-2012
    delnorte
    My dog will never be on a leash when outdoors (unless in the city, near streets). Ever. Those who don't like it can stick it where the sun don't shine.
    I think whom ever is going the fastest speed on a trail needs to watch out for any other animal (wild or domestic) or person & ride with enough control to not injure yourself, other people & animals.
    If your riding the Abq Foothills, you should know you're in a congested area, where accidents are likely if you don't check your speed or keep your eyes peeled - even looking off trail. People whom care about animals will not & should not force their animals to live tied up, no matter what the law says. You can't make those people and animals disappear.
    Dangerous stuff is going to happen where people and/or animals congregate. It will always happen, no matter what the laws are - just like speeding.
  • 11-20-2012
    Fuglio
    My dog is a rescue dog that was used for fighting.. shes mostly nice but will try and bite dogs somtimes. So i wont ever have her off a leash. When other peoples dogs come up to say hello to her ushally its cool. Somtimes me and the other owner need to restrain them. If theres not an owner there to pull thier dog back i let mine off her leash im not gonna let my dog get bit and not be able to bite back. Also i have little kids that like dogs a whole lot. It pisses me off when somones dog runs up to my kids not on a leash and follows us around. Its tough to say that every dog should be on a leash.most shouldent. But like most things a couple *******s. Ruin it for everyone
  • 11-20-2012
    MTBNate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fuglio View Post
    My dog is a rescue dog that was used for fighting.. shes mostly nice but will try and bite dogs somtimes. So i wont ever have her off a leash. When other peoples dogs come up to say hello to her ushally its cool. Somtimes me and the other owner need to restrain them. If theres not an owner there to pull thier dog back i let mine off her leash im not gonna let my dog get bit and not be able to bite back. Also i have little kids that like dogs a whole lot. It pisses me off when somones dog runs up to my kids not on a leash and follows us around. Its tough to say that every dog should be on a leash.most shouldent. But like most things a couple *******s. Ruin it for everyone

    Especially in the congested multi-use Foothills where the expectation (and legal requirement) is for dogs to be leashed.

    If you're in an area that doesn't have a leash law, then the responsibility is obviously reversed.
  • 11-20-2012
    Calhoun
    absolutely need to respect other trail users. just because you love your dog does not mean everyone else does. If you are in a congested area you should respect other trail users and not force your Santa Fe hippy sh1t on us Teej :D
  • 11-20-2012
    bg2lk15
    Talk about topic drift! Now we're wallowing in it.

    In North and South foothills, the dog issue seems to be close to the trailheads which owners treat as handy canine toilets. I love the responsible ones who carefully bag in plastic and leave on the trail...

    Critter kaka isn't as offensive. Maybe because they don't eat as much and digest as much as them can? I feel sorry for the coyotes seeing what they leave.

    Anyway, back to trails, the foothills will start getting a lot more traffic when the east mountains become unrideable. Dry or wet winter coming? Any predictions from dem bones?
  • 11-21-2012
    delnorte
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    absolutely need to respect other trail users. just because you love your dog does not mean everyone else does. If you are in a congested area you should respect other trail users and not force your Santa Fe hippy sh1t on us Teej :D

    My Santa Fe hippy-ness subscribes to the theory that the world is not only for humans. My dog is also not a psycho-ninja killer like yours :) Plus, I know you'd hit the brakes for Brooklyn. He's the official Bando dog. He's probably the only reason that any cute females will even talk to us ;)
  • 11-22-2012
    De La Pena
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by delnorte View Post
    He's probably the only reason that any cute females will even talk to us ;)

    That's just sad... really, really, pathetically sad.

    I would have thunk the girls would be all over you bandos after you 'hit that s**t' on a tweeked out drop 360 from the Bando Boulder.
  • 11-22-2012
    b_mann
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 6bobby9 View Post
    That's just sad... really, really, pathetically sad.

    I would have thunk the girls would be all over you bandos after you 'hit that s**t' on a tweeked out drop 360 from the Bando Boulder.

    Waht?

    I think you thunked yourself a little too hard. Bandos are lady KILLERS, not lady THRILLERS. Plus, I've never seen any of them do a 360 on purpose.:D
  • 11-22-2012
    b_mann
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    Especially in the congested multi-use Foothills where the expectation (and legal requirement) is for dogs to be leashed.

    If you're in an area that doesn't have a leash law, then the responsibility is obviously reversed.

    Waht about if you are under the influence of alcohol and hit a dog/person/kid?

    The responsibility is EVERYONE's, IMO.
  • 11-22-2012
    b_mann
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bg2lk15 View Post

    Anyway, back to trails, the foothills will start getting a lot more traffic when the east mountains become unrideable. Dry or wet winter coming? Any predictions from dem bones?

    I predict we will be riding east mountains until February. Climate change it's a comin'! However, I also predict some good rain come May:thumbsup:
  • 11-22-2012
    De La Pena
    uh oh! he's back!