Los Alamos...

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  • 11-29-2012
    BluePanda
    Los Alamos...
    I'm moving to my new Job in Los Alamos in January -- any local riders? :D
  • 11-29-2012
    nealpederson
    Welcome to LA BluePanda, there's ton's of incredible riding here! There's a few of us who frequent this board fairly often and I'm sure they'll welcome you when they see your post. Winter riding is usually fairly minimal until Feb-March due to snow but so far the way this winter's going we've been riding everything. When there is snow in town it's a short trip to places like Nambe and La Tierra in Santa Fe. Feel free to give me a PM when you get to town.
  • 11-29-2012
    rodmccrady
    You'll live near a trailhead
    Welcome to town! The riding here is excellent, and there are many trails right in town. No driving necessary. The Tuff Riders are the local MTB club. We have two weekly rides and more. Search for Tuff Riders on Facebook or PM me (or Neal) to get connected.
  • 11-29-2012
    Calhoun
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post
    I'm moving to my new Job in Los Alamos in January -- any local riders? :D

    lucky dog, great trails in LA
  • 11-30-2012
    RoundRockTJ
    I need a job at the lab. Can someone please hook me up? :)
  • 11-30-2012
    MTBNate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RoundRockTJ View Post
    I need a job at the lab. Can someone please hook me up? :)

    Good luck:

    https://jobs.lanl.gov/OA_HTML/RF.jsp...FWRkGUjEyAXZMA..


    :D
  • 12-02-2012
    Blister Butt
    Los Alamos has wonderful trails. The Tuff Riders are a good group to ride with. There are plenty of lone wolves out there like me and others to ride with as well. Most anyone here would be happy to hook you up. If you select a home in Los Alamos (not White Rock), there will undoubtedly be some kind of trail access within easy biking distance to your front door. Welcome to the neighborhood!

    --Jim
  • 12-03-2012
    NuMexJoe
    Welcome. I'll echo what Neal, Rod and Jim said; even if you're not into the group ride scene, rolling with the Tuffriders would be a good way to become familiar with most of the local trails.
    - Joe
  • 12-04-2012
    BluePanda
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rodmccrady View Post
    Welcome to town! The riding here is excellent, and there are many trails right in town. No driving necessary. The Tuff Riders are the local MTB club. We have two weekly rides and more. Search for Tuff Riders on Facebook or PM me (or Neal) to get connected.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    Los Alamos has wonderful trails. The Tuff Riders are a good group to ride with. There are plenty of lone wolves out there like me and others to ride with as well. Most anyone here would be happy to hook you up. If you select a home in Los Alamos (not White Rock), there will undoubtedly be some kind of trail access within easy biking distance to your front door. Welcome to the neighborhood!

    --Jim

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NuMexJoe View Post
    Welcome. I'll echo what Neal, Rod and Jim said; even if you're not into the group ride scene, rolling with the Tuffriders would be a good way to become familiar with most of the local trails.
    - Joe


    AWESOME. I was out there working as a student after my freshman year in the summer of 2009.

    I rode with the TuffRiders then...I don't recall any names -- but there was a nice lady that loaned me a bike for the summer (after watching my fail with an old huffy a few weeks I think she just felt bad).

    It's going to take a bit to get used to the altitude now that I've been on the coast for the past 3 years -- but I'm VERY excited!!

    Edit: Also just found the group on FB. :) Looking forward to getting to know some of you and looking forward to learning a lot too! :thumbsup:
  • 12-04-2012
    wyatt79m
    Sooo Lucky, Id love to find a job there.
  • 12-09-2012
    BluePanda
    I hope a bunch of you are good with working on bikes too...I can't manage to get mine quite right still...

    Riding around in the driveway I lost the chain of the front and free-spun to fall off my bike...it was pretty humorous but I've got a lovely bruise to say otherwise.

    I had it working well a couple weeks ago -- perhaps the neglect to ride in a couple weeks is my repayment.
  • 12-09-2012
    De La Pena
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post
    It's going to take a bit to get used to the altitude now that I've been on the coast for the past 3 years -- but I'm VERY excited!!

    If you ride 3-4 times a week for 45 minutes it will take approximately 3 weeks to fully acclimate.
  • 12-09-2012
    rodmccrady
    Tuff Rider bike work party
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post
    I hope a bunch of you are good with working on bikes too...I can't manage to get mine quite right still...

    Riding around in the driveway I lost the chain of the front and free-spun to fall off my bike...it was pretty humorous but I've got a lovely bruise to say otherwise.

    I had it working well a couple weeks ago -- perhaps the neglect to ride in a couple weeks is my repayment.

    We had one suggestion from a Tuff Rider to have a bike work party during the winter months. This might work out for you. I'll make sure it gets posted on the Tuff Riders Facebook page.
  • 12-10-2012
    BluePanda
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rodmccrady View Post
    We had one suggestion from a Tuff Rider to have a bike work party during the winter months. This might work out for you. I'll make sure it gets posted on the Tuff Riders Facebook page.

    Yes! This would be GREAT! :):thumbsup:
  • 12-10-2012
    MTBNate
    A Wrench Night!

    Not to be confused with Wench Night.

    :D
  • 12-10-2012
    Calhoun
    can't you have both?
  • 12-10-2012
    BluePanda
    BEWZ and BIKES...proper I think...
  • 12-11-2012
    MTBNate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    can't you have both?

    sounds too good to possibly be true

    :skep:
  • 12-11-2012
    NuMexJoe
    You might consider PMing Blister Butt. I think he could hook you up with a good, honest wrench. I'd recommend against the Bike Doc. He's often rude and only an average mechanic, from all the stories I've heard.
    - Joe
  • 12-11-2012
    BluePanda
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NuMexJoe View Post
    You might consider PMing Blister Butt. I think he could hook you up with a good, honest wrench. I'd recommend against the Bike Doc. He's often rude and only an average mechanic, from all the stories I've heard.
    - Joe


    I've actually heard of the Bike Doc before -- but never met the guy. I will keep Blister Butt on my list of "good" people. :)

    Thanks for the tip Joe! I'm overly excited to get out to NM already!!

    Edit: For you locals -- I found a house in Espanola to rent and we're signed and ready to move in!! Ahhh...January 18th we'll be getting in -- who wants to unload the truck...haha jk, but seriously looking forward to all! :D
  • 12-11-2012
    MTBNate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post
    Edit: For you locals -- I found a house in Espanola to rent and we're signed and ready to move in!!

    Ese.. que paso vato?

  • 12-11-2012
    Jim Beam
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post
    I found a house in Espanola to rent and we're signed and ready to move in!! :D

    Dude. If you're serious - BIG mistake. Time to get a Doberman, a Rottweiler, a German Shepherd, a security system, a few sidearms, and a big insurance policy.
  • 12-11-2012
    BluePanda
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jim Beam View Post
    Dude. If you're serious - BIG mistake. Time to get a Doberman, a Rottweiler, a German Shepherd, a security system, a few sidearms, and a big insurance policy.

    Not really what I want to hear -- but yes, I am serious. We've been looking a lot for housing and ended up with this one in Espanola. It's off a private road and doesn't look too bad. Guy that lives there has three kids (rather young ones too) so it must be a "better" area than you say.

    Our two cats won't put up much a fight -- but at least insurance can replace some things...if worse comes to worse.

    :eek:
  • 12-11-2012
    rogerfromco
    White Rock is where most of the folks I know live.
  • 12-11-2012
    De La Pena
    Espanola is a rough town, even more so for an "outsider". As a fellow rider, our unwritten code is to warn others of oncoming traffic, so be careful. You won't be in Kansas anymore. Keep your bike indoors, never leave it on the car rack, locked up or not, ever.
  • 12-11-2012
    rpinata
    Hey Panda, welcome to New Mexico. I was going to give you a jab earlier about Espanola but had second thoughts but now that I'm not the first I'm going to keep it simple: Watch the Milagro Beanfiled War before you come. Think of it as a primer.
    You aren't the only one to work in LA that lives in the Valley but you might be the only one coming right from Clemson.
    I say cool, man. Keep us informed on how's it going. If you really want to ride, this is a great state for it.
  • 12-11-2012
    Blister Butt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NuMexJoe View Post
    You might consider PMing Blister Butt. I think he could hook you up with a good, honest wrench. I'd recommend against the Bike Doc. He's often rude and only an average mechanic, from all the stories I've heard.
    - Joe

    Joe is very kind. Let me know if you require some good, honest wrenching.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post
    ...For you locals -- I found a house in Espanola to rent and we're signed and ready to move in!! Ahhh...January 18th we'll be getting in -- who wants to unload the truck...haha jk, but seriously looking forward to all! :D

    As others have said, Espaņola can be daunting for someone new to New Mexico's cultural uniqueness. That said, there are lots of great people there, too. As with any rural area, don't flash a flashy bike around, keep it locked and out of sight and maybe invest in a security system or service. I used to do some housesitting down in those parts and it wasn't unusual to experience some surprises now and then.

    Regardless, I'm pretty sure you'll end up loving New Mexico.
  • 12-12-2012
    borracho
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 6bobby9 View Post
    Keep your bike indoors, never leave it on the car rack, locked up or not, ever.

    Especially at walmart!

    I hope you are an aggressive driver, the morning/evening commute coming from the valley is an experience!
    :D
  • 12-12-2012
    BluePanda
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rpinata View Post
    Hey Panda, welcome to New Mexico. I was going to give you a jab earlier about Espanola but had second thoughts but now that I'm not the first I'm going to keep it simple: Watch the Milagro Beanfiled War before you come. Think of it as a primer.
    You aren't the only one to work in LA that lives in the Valley but you might be the only one coming right from Clemson.

    I'm not originally from Clemson -- only been here three years. I'm originally from Colorado (suberb areas -- Littleton and Golden mostly). I lived in Los Alamos for a summer -- it was pretty awsome just a bit $$$ for what I got. lol

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    Joe is very kind. Let me know if you require some good, honest wrenching.

    As others have said, Espaņola can be daunting for someone new to New Mexico's cultural uniqueness. That said, there are lots of great people there, too. As with any rural area, don't flash a flashy bike around, keep it locked and out of sight and maybe invest in a security system or service. I used to do some housesitting down in those parts and it wasn't unusual to experience some surprises now and then.

    Regardless, I'm pretty sure you'll end up loving New Mexico.

    Awesome -- I know I'll need some help. I've got some old and worn parts and after making adjustments it's better but it still needs work. I probably just need to bend over and invest in some parts -- time will come for it.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by borracho View Post
    Especially at walmart!

    I hope you are an aggressive driver, the morning/evening commute coming from the valley is an experience!
    :D

    haha -- I've got my fiance to ride with -- so between the two of us, we'll get through ;)


    Thanks for all the encouragement guys... :skep:
  • 12-13-2012
    Walt
    Really?
    I have nothing against Espanola. My father actually lived there for many years. There are good parts and bad parts, just like anywhere.

    BUT...

    If you assume you'll be driving up the hill ~20 times a month, and it's an hour round trip, and that you spend, say, 50 cents a mile on fuel/insurance/maintenance on your car, it gets hard to justify not just living in LA.

    I mean, even if you decide your time in the car is worth zero and you don't mind the drive, you're still spending *at least* an extra $600 or so a month just to go to work every day. Is the rental price difference between LA and Espanola these days really that big?

    Edit: Looked it up out of curiosity. You can rent a *really* nice spacious condo in town with a trail basically in your backyard for $700-1000. Houses are more, but I don't think you can make up $600 a month unless you live in the ghetto. And you do not want to live in the crappy parts of Espanola.

    Waltworks Bicycles: Tuesday rant!

    And you will have to drive to ride, to boot. LA has probably the best trail access (I cannot think of any place in town more than 1/2 mile from a trailhead) ever. That's worth a lot if you like riding bikes. Plus you've got some really nice road rides out the back door in LA, versus basically nothing (at least nothing safe) in Espanola. Bike commuting in LA is no problem if you want groceries or whatever. I would not try it in Espanola, etc, etc.

    Regardless, northern NM rocks. Enjoy it.

    -Walt


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post

    Edit: For you locals -- I found a house in Espanola to rent and we're signed and ready to move in!! Ahhh...January 18th we'll be getting in -- who wants to unload the truck...haha jk, but seriously looking forward to all! :D

  • 12-13-2012
    MTBNate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I have nothing against Espanola. My father actually lived there for many years. There are good parts and bad parts, just like anywhere.

    BUT...

    If you assume you'll be driving up the hill ~20 times a month, and it's an hour round trip, and that you spend, say, 50 cents a mile on fuel/insurance/maintenance on your car, it gets hard to justify not just living in LA.

    I mean, even if you decide your time in the car is worth zero and you don't mind the drive, you're still spending *at least* an extra $600 or so a month just to go to work every day. Is the rental price difference between LA and Espanola these days really that big?

    Waltworks Bicycles: Tuesday rant!

    And you will have to drive to ride, to boot. LA has probably the best trail access (I cannot think of any place in town more than 1/2 mile from a trailhead) ever. That's worth a lot if you like riding bikes. Plus you've got some really nice road rides out the back door in LA, versus basically nothing (at least nothing safe) in Espanola. Bike commuting in LA is no problem if you want groceries or whatever. I would not try it in Espanola, etc, etc.

    Regardless, northern NM rocks. Enjoy it.

    -Walt


    Definitely things to consider.

    When I was working at LA I found it more cost effective (and a better standard of living) to commute to LANL and live in ABQ. Sure it was a 4hr/220 mile round trip - but it would have cost me double+ to buy a house comparable to what I already had.

    I joined a van pool which cost me $100/150 per month out of pocket.
  • 12-13-2012
    Walt
    Wow.
    Even if I don't have to drive and it's got comfy seats, I would not consider 4 hours/day (that's ~1/4 of your time awake!) in a van a "better standard of living". I'd live in the world's crappiest apartment quite happily in exchange for 4 hours/day of free time. Hell, I'd live in a tent.

    To each their own, though. To some people a nice house is really important and makes them happy, and is worth a lot of sacrifice. To me it's just a way to keep the rain off between family outings, rides, etc.

    -Walt

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    Definitely things to consider.

    When I was working at LA I found it more cost effective (and a better standard of living) to commute to LANL and live in ABQ. Sure it was a 4hr/220 mile round trip - but it would have cost me double+ to buy a house comparable to what I already had.

    I joined a van pool which cost me $100/150 per month out of pocket.

  • 12-13-2012
    Jim Beam
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by borracho View Post
    Especially at walmart!

    I hope you are an aggressive driver, the morning/evening commute coming from the valley is an experience!
    :D

    ^ this

    It's locally known as the "Taco 500".
  • 12-13-2012
    MTBNate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Even if I don't have to drive and it's got comfy seats, I would not consider 4 hours/day (that's ~1/4 of your time awake!) in a van a "better standard of living". I'd live in the world's crappiest apartment quite happily in exchange for 4 hours/day of free time. Hell, I'd live in a tent.

    To each their own, though. To some people a nice house is really important and makes them happy, and is worth a lot of sacrifice. To me it's just a way to keep the rain off between family outings, rides, etc.

    -Walt

    It worked out ok - the project I was engineering didn't make the funding list this FY, so I picked up another position back in ABQ.

    I was really suprised at the number of folk who commute from ABQ to LA daily tho. I was on a 4/10 schedule, so it wasn't that bad - long days however.
  • 12-13-2012
    De La Pena
    When you look at the price of housing in LA it is not surprising at all that people commute from as far as ABQ. 20 year old single wide trailers are going for around 200k. If you want a house, an older small one starts at 350-400k. I have had many, many, projects in LA that each lasted a few months and it's still cheaper to commute than to stay even in the hotels up there. On a long day or bad weather day I usually go to the Cities of Gold which was usually half the price of the rooms in LA.
  • 12-13-2012
    BluePanda
    I couldn't imagine commuting from ABQ...that's a bit too far.

    But really we preferred a house. You can complain about cost of a car etc...but we get pretty good millage on both our cars and really can't complain.

    It's not worth it to me to live in a tiny little apartment with neighbors above and below for the same cost as a house with a little bit of a drive...

    Call me "stupid" but more time to enjoy each other before and after work seems alright with me...
  • 12-13-2012
    MTBNate
    You have to do what works best for you.

    I hate apartment living also.

    Plus look for a carpool - there are quite a few of them & LANL has a commuter webpage you can access from their intraweb.
  • 12-13-2012
    Walt
    No, not calling you stupid. You can always move, after all, if you hate it. My point was that the holy grail is pretty much in your grasp - you can live right near where you work AND where the best trails are (LA has at least 100 miles of ST, if you add it all up). There is really nothing better than pulling the mountain bike out of the house, riding to work, putting in 4 hours, lunch ride, 4 more hours, evening ride, beer/dinner, then plenty of time still left for whatever else you want to do. It's addictive to have that kind of free time, especially once you have kids and free time is harder to come by.

    But hey, as I said, different priorities. On my deathbed I'm pretty sure I won't be thinking "man, I wish I'd lived in a bigger house". There might be some internet-time-wasting regret, though...

    -Walt
  • 12-13-2012
    BluePanda
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    No, not calling you stupid. You can always move, after all, if you hate it. My point was that the holy grail is pretty much in your grasp - you can live right near where you work AND where the best trails are (LA has at least 100 miles of ST, if you add it all up). There is really nothing better than pulling the mountain bike out of the house, riding to work, putting in 4 hours, lunch ride, 4 more hours, evening ride, beer/dinner, then plenty of time still left for whatever else you want to do. It's addictive to have that kind of free time, especially once you have kids and free time is harder to come by.

    But hey, as I said, different priorities. On my deathbed I'm pretty sure I won't be thinking "man, I wish I'd lived in a bigger house". There might be some internet-time-wasting regret, though...

    -Walt


    Well aren't you just a lucky guy then...:eek:

    I'm sorry we can't afford to live in LA and have your fancy dream -- but we got what we could afford. A lot of apartments have large deposits for pets or don't allow them -- our pets are family so they will stay. There's slim pickings when you aren't in the area to look yourself so **** happens and you take what you get. Fortunately we are happy people and don't have any problem enjoying our own lives despite how others apparently think our lives will be sooooo miserable. We'll be happy and take it as it goes...

    Now go try and rain on someone else's parade, because it's all sun and shine here...:thumbsup:
  • 12-13-2012
    De La Pena
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BluePanda View Post
    I couldn't imagine commuting from ABQ...that's a bit too far.

    But really we preferred a house. You can complain about cost of a car etc...but we get pretty good millage on both our cars and really can't complain.

    It's not worth it to me to live in a tiny little apartment with neighbors above and below for the same cost as a house with a little bit of a drive...

    Call me "stupid" but more time to enjoy each other before and after work seems alright with me...

    No, not stupid at all. If I worked full time in LA I would honestly probably be doing exactly what your doing. Good Luck and welcome.
  • 12-13-2012
    Walt
    Sorry, I think you took that the wrong way (or I came across the wrong way). I think you will love northern NM and if I still lived there I'd buy you some beers and help you tune up your ride. People are friendly, the weather is great, and the riding in LA is amazing. If you're a rock climber, check out White Rock and El Rito (and Diablo if you want to do something a little more adventurous). If you're not a climber yet, give it a whirl, because the climbing is amazing, especially on sunny winter days when the trails are too wet.

    -Walt
  • 12-14-2012
    MTBNate
    Add snow sports to that list, cuz we're hoping that Paj is getting slammed with some snow right now.. Finally
  • 12-14-2012
    Walt
    Pajarito rocks
    I remember you could ski a half day of powder, then drive down to White Rock and be climbing at the Overlook with no shirt on on the right day. Great stuff.

    Does Paj still get snow? I know some stuff burned (a lift was down, right?) in that most recent big fire.

    -W

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    Add snow sports to that list, cuz we're hoping that Paj is getting slammed with some snow right now.. Finally

  • 12-14-2012
    nealpederson
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Does Paj still get snow? I know some stuff burned (a lift was down, right?) in that most recent big fire.-W

    Hell yeah Walt, we still get snow! Last year there was one point when we had more snow than anyone else in the entire country and we had it all to ourselves cause everyone thought the entire area burned down. We did lose two lifts in the fire but both were rebuilt this year (I think Town Sight may still need stress testing before it goes operational). They are also reopening the far west runs that were in the high burn area.
  • 12-14-2012
    MTBNate
    I just saw this post where LANL is closed today thx to this winter storm.

    But Paj has some GREAT mountain biking in the summer season... lots of trails from mild to wild.

    They locals have been busting their butts up there since the big fire 2 yrs ago to get stuff rebuilt.
  • 12-14-2012
    BluePanda
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MTBNate View Post
    I just saw this post where LANL is closed today thx to this winter storm.

    But Paj has some GREAT mountain biking in the summer season... lots of trails from mild to wild.

    They locals have been busting their butts up there since the big fire 2 yrs ago to get stuff rebuilt.

    I'm going to like having snow days again.

    Never did ski when I lived in Colorado -- didn't have the money growing up. I did get to go snowboarding 3-4 times with a few friends though, I'm excited to be close to the hill...hopefully I can get out and make a fool of myself!! :D
  • 12-14-2012
    Walt
    Pajarito is probably the best "local" ski area in the universe when it has snow: reasonable vert, lots of types of terrain, never a lift line, and pretty darn cheap. Los Alamos is the only place I have every lived with the sheer variety of outdoor recreation available in all seasons. I guess the boating is limited (Box, Pilar, Chama is about it unless you're one of those "I want to die" steep creek people and can wait for just the right conditions) but seriously:
    -100 miles of singletrack out your door plus a ton of random old dirt roads.
    -Great road riding both around the WR/Truck Route loop (can you still do that with the new security?) and in the Jemez, again right out your door.
    -Killer winter (White Rock) and summer (Dungeon, Las Conchas) rock climbing within 15 minutes.
    -Best little ski area on earth (if you get snow) that is dirt cheap and a 15 minute drive from town.
    -Not bad bike commuting in town (unless it's gotten terrible for some reason in the last 15 years).
    -A million hikes to a surprising number of different altitudes and climates.
    -Really good "ball sport" facilities/fields and swimming pool, etc if you're into that stuff.

    I have never figured out how LA couldn't manage to turn itself into more of an outdoor tourism destination, maybe it's just the location or the reputation of the community. The fires didn't help, of course.

    -Walt
  • 12-14-2012
    MTBNate
    Gotta love NM

  • 12-14-2012
    Calhoun
    that is awesome Nate. Well done sir.
  • 12-14-2012
    MTBNate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Pajarito is probably the best "local" ski area in the universe when it has snow: reasonable vert, lots of types of terrain, never a lift line, and pretty darn cheap. Los Alamos is the only place I have every lived with the sheer variety of outdoor recreation available in all seasons. I guess the boating is limited (Box, Pilar, Chama is about it unless you're one of those "I want to die" steep creek people and can wait for just the right conditions) but seriously:
    -100 miles of singletrack out your door plus a ton of random old dirt roads.
    -Great road riding both around the WR/Truck Route loop (can you still do that with the new security?) and in the Jemez, again right out your door.
    -Killer winter (White Rock) and summer (Dungeon, Las Conchas) rock climbing within 15 minutes.
    -Best little ski area on earth (if you get snow) that is dirt cheap and a 15 minute drive from town.
    -Not bad bike commuting in town (unless it's gotten terrible for some reason in the last 15 years).
    -A million hikes to a surprising number of different altitudes and climates.
    -Really good "ball sport" facilities/fields and swimming pool, etc if you're into that stuff.

    I have never figured out how LA couldn't manage to turn itself into more of an outdoor tourism destination, maybe it's just the location or the reputation of the community. The fires didn't help, of course.

    -Walt

    If LA just had a great mico brewery, that'd be the topping on the cake.