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  1. #1
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    Feedback on Reroutes @ Cedro...and some lost FS equipment

    The weather got pretty gnasty by the time we got up to Four-Corners, so we decided to bail down Mighty Mule to Chamisoso with the intention of taking Lower Tunnel back to upper p-lot, as this was a semi-shuttle ride from Tunnel to Cedro Singletrack. But, to my surprise (or maybe I missed the turnoff) it had been rerouted to Delberts? (we always called it the traverse trail). I figured that eventually it would merge with MM, but I never saw it. So, we kept on going. I gotta say, I remember that trail being in better shape a few years ago. I'm not sure that all the reroutes along the way did that trail any justice, and when you add the split 3/4 of the way through, it makes it confusing. Where does that trail that takes off to the right go, just before you get to that heinous hike-a-bike? Needless to say after all that work, we weren't going to pass up Powerline and that trail looked like it shortcut down to Chamisoso. However, once we got to the intersection of Powerline and Delberts?, yet another trail converged and it looked like the old entrance to the traverse.

    Anyway, the point of all of this is that Mighty Mule was a good trail, and I think completely abandoning it was a bad idea. Definitely not the easiest to climb, but certainly a blast to descend, while the new Delberts trail has some sections that are mandatory HABs and can be quite deceiving for those who might be used to dropping out at Might Mule. The traverse was always a good compliment to MM for extra miles with a really good payoff descent down Powerline, not the other way around...IMO. I guess now we have to take the road back to Chamisoso if we wanna shortcut?

    Also, Skerry, there is a Mattock about halfway into Delberts. I put it on the shoulder, so it should be easy for you to see.

    PS: some of those sections of The Traverse (Delberts) are really fun!
    Last edited by Just4Pix; 02-10-2013 at 07:29 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just4Pix View Post
    Mighty Mule was a good trail, and I think completely abandoning it was a bad idea. Definitely not the easiest to climb, but certainly a blast to descend
    Very disappointed to find that trail closed last year. Definitely a Cedro highlight. Except for the funky corner above the big switchback, I think that trail would've outlasted all of us with practically zero maintenance. Except for $hitheads riding it when it was muddy, I never saw any deterioration, and even that corner was buffed out by various citizen efforts on several occasions, only to be repeatedly trashed by climbing motobikes. Imo, the trail should've been left open to all but motobikes, once the new trails were opened.

  3. #3
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    This is why it is so important to work hard to make sure that the 3-bottles design and extension keeps with the same flavor and technical level that it has now. From my conversations with Kerry, that is the plan but not a guarantee. Even though 3-B is only a moderate tech level trail, the FS standards really don't make much room for a technical trail. This could go along ways toward more technical bike only trails on the FS land. This is why we (Bandoleros) have told Kerry he has our support with layout, design and building on this project. Looking forward to it and hope plenty of others that are interested in technical trails will join in.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    This is why it is so important to work hard to make sure that the 3-bottles design and extension keeps with the same flavor and technical level that it has now. From my conversations with Kerry, that is the plan but not a guarantee. Even though 3-B is only a moderate tech level trail, the FS standards really don't make much room for a technical trail. This could go along ways toward more technical bike only trails on the FS land. This is why we (Bandoleros) have told Kerry he has our support with layout, design and building on this project. Looking forward to it and hope plenty of others that are interested in technical trails will join in.
    HERE HERE!

    Looking forward to some building this summer.

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    Your point regarding 3-B is well taken, Steve. But regarding Mighty Mule, is the suggestion that this perfectly good trail was closed just because it was too technical? Lower Mighty Mule has been signed, and even re-routed once, since I've been riding, and even if the trail had been bootlegged at some point, as Pix said, the trail had been serving a perfectly good purpose for many a year, and, imo, had proven to be probably the most enduring trail in the whole system.

  6. #6
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    Your point about MM is what I don't want to happen to 3-B. We don't want a very fun technical trail to be replaced with a more tame trail. Plenty of XC trails around. Several technical sections of trails here in the East Mtns have met that fate. Reroute around a technical section and instead of leaving that tech section, it is taken out so no one can enjoy it. As in Mighty Mule. Tio Juanito and Gnasty Wag are two other examples. The reroutes are awesome but the old tech section could have been left for those that like a technical challenge. I use to start thinking about that corner on MM well before I would get there. Made me feel great if I got around clean. And if I didn't clean it, next time. We want those next times. This is why it is so important to work with Kerry on 3-B and others. FS people will come and go but we stay here and live with whatever the FS does. So while Kerry is here and very willing to work with us we need to get the kind of trails we want and not just the standard FS trail. Thanks Kerry for the great trails that have gone in and looking forward to the ones to come.
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  7. #7
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    I'm a little confused as to what folks are calling Mighty Mule. I know there are some sections that we (USFS) were/do calling Delberts. Either way, our work on those trails is not done and will be finished up this coming April.

    Understandibly some folks really like groveling up loose sh*t and it's a challenge that's fun to conqer. However, in no way are we doing reroutes to make trails easier, they are rerouted for better sustainablilty and reduced erosion. You cannot tell me that those sections were not eroding, I can show you photos of cubic yards of sediment collected at the bottom of poorly located sections of those trails and their corresponding ditches. Just4Pix, grab one of the new trail maps and it'll make sense in terms of locations.

    Now, with Three Bottles, I have no intentions on making it easier, it's a tech trail and it will stay that way. We will work with folks to make some changes where there is erosion problems but as Steve points out, if we have real cooperation from riders on planning and the work, then I think we'll come up with a trail everyone is happy with. Complaining on MTBR doesn't cut it.

    So, in a moment I will be posting a "Proposed Action" for the completion of a Categorical Exclusion (CE) related to Three Bottles and several other trails. The 30 day comment period started on Sunday so it would be a good idea to comment. If you don't know what a CE is or how to comment I'd be happy to share but the mtn bike community needs to get educated in how NEPA works. The motorized folks know it in and out and comment and work with us. Step up and get involved.

    We look forward to working with folks this comming summer.

  8. #8
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    I think they are referring to the old Chamyoso drop that you re-routed last year. Some consider it an extension of Mighty Mule. Could be wrong.

    I think you need better signage where it T-Bones into the trail headed up to the top of Power-line. I know when Sandar and I rode it for the first time we got a little lost trying to figure out how to get to the bottom of the Chamyoso Parking Lot. Had to double back.

    Otherwise, as the trail weathers it should become a nice reroute!
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbike52 View Post
    Your point about MM is what I don't want to happen to 3-B. We don't want a very fun technical trail to be replaced with a more tame trail...
    And Steve, this is where the FR Bois need to get a clue... Straight down the fall-line, back of the seat, chute shot lines are not gonna happen!!! Now this doesn't mean that we need to build 8-10% grade, switch-back trails either. IMBA Specs can be a bit too tight in my book (and yeah, not everyone reads or agrees with my book). But ya gotta waggle!

    So, rather than switchbacks, you build rolling banked turns and make sure you have your cross-slope/inside drainage worked out. It's what folks call a "Flow Trail". You are going to have to pay real attention to your rolling drainages on the cross slopes, but I think 15-20% grades are sustainable if done right.

    The other thing to remember, is you HAVE to have A/B lines. You guys want to jump a 10' ledge, no problem, but the thing about ledge drops is they have to go cross slope and tie into the main trail. You can't position them straight down the fall-line without causing problems with erosion on the run-out and having issues working it into the B-line. So layout is critical!

    Again, not everyone reads my book, but I think we could all agree that Kerry knows what time of day it is!
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  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=skerry00;10156542

    Complaining on MTBR doesn't cut it.

    Just trying to get some of the other Tech lovers interested in this project. And its a good place to see how some of the other tech riders feel about it. See what their thoughts are and perhaps they will get on board with it. We are committed to it and looking forward to it.
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  11. #11
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    A and B lines (maybe a C line here and there) are planned for Three Bottles. The dead tree skinnys will be going but I think there will be some even more challenging stuff on that trail when we're finished and those will fade into memory.

    Steve et al., to make Three Bottles happen, we'll be looking for support and possibly some grants to buy the signage that will be needed. I talked a little with Bikeworks about possibly sponsoring it. IMBA has micro loans, get that FOO ship sailing again, and go after it!

  12. #12
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    Yes I know that the examples I gave are fall line routs and that leads to erosion. Those are over and done with and the reroutes are really good trails. I don't' ever intend to ever infer that Kerry doesn't know what time of day it is. I am very glad he is here and enjoy working with him. And Kerry said he does not reroute to make the trail easier. Good enough for me. Doug,you know that sometimes it takes a little special motivation to move the Tech, Free ride group. Just trying to get others motivated to get involved with this tech trail project. With enough involved with this one we might get to do some other tech trail projects.
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  13. #13
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    Hey, if you can make me forget those skinnies, cool. There is lots of potential through there. Really looking forward to the design. I want and will do all I can to help with this as well as try to get other tech riders involved. The Bandos know a lot of tech lovers. As far as Foo. Someone else will have to take that bull by the horns.
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  14. #14
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    The issue has gotten more than a little confused here by the inclusion of Tio Juanito, GW and 3B in Otero in a discussion of the closure of a long-standing FS trail in Cedro. In spite of the immense value of the former to riders in Otero, they all three were bootlegged, and a case could easily made for re-designing each of them to some extent.

    On the other hand, Kerry, what is being referred to as Mighty Mule is the trail that was, at one point at least, signed as Mighty Mule at its beginning just below 5 Hills approximately 50 yds from the end of the upper portion of Mighty Mule, until it came to the T, where the trail to the right was signed as Chamisoso. This is also the trail (or trails) that was closed last year. Whatever one wishes to call it, it was clearly an official FS trail since permits were issued annually to race on it. It is also the trail that was sufficiently well designed that virtually no work was ever done by the FS to maintain/improve it, and not surprisingly, since it was solid rock over the majority of it's length. Which brings us to the original question, which is, why was this trail closed?

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