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  1. #1
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    Caja Del Rio this weekend

    The Caja Del Rio 100 k will be this coming Sunday, Oct 26th. Start time is 8am at headquarters well, where cr 62 becomes fr24. We will not use BLM land this year due to permit issues, so we will be a little short of 100k, probably about 96km. The course will go as far south as old la bajada. There are some very tough climbs, but none are extremely long, most of the course is quite rideable. The website is www.cajadelriprace.com. Questions, call Stephen at 310-1566.

  2. #2
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    Just curious. What exactly is the $50.00 going to? Sounds steep to me.

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    Stephen - I may have missed it, but am wondering if a course map was ever posted up...?

    Hope it goes well!

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    Thought it wasn't happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSweetleaf
    Just curious. What exactly is the $50.00 going to? Sounds steep to me.
    When this ride/race was originally brought up earlier in the year I thought I'd give it a go. But lack of information, no response to pre-ride inquiry, absence of a course map and a dead link to a phantom website has me saying no thanks. That and a $50 entry fee to boot. For what? Promotion costs and permit fees?
    When you find yourself on the side of the majority it's time to pause and reflect.
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    $50 is crazy! What type of race is this anyway? I'm a fan of the NMES, you might get a little lost but they are tons of fun and most importantly, FREE!
    "Show em how we do it in the 505, show up late and leave early!" -Pete

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdaddy
    a dead link to a phantom website ?
    He just mistyped the url.
    http://www.cajadelriorace.com/

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    I would note that....

    ...lot's of things happen, and in fact - go really well - even if they are not intricately detailed and dissected and discussed on the internets... Stephen is a tireless advocate for all things cycling, and has put on more races than you can shake a stick at - and in fact, is a USAC Official who works for cheap helping score a number of the NM Road Race series races.

    Now I know I definately am one of the incessant internet yappers - but that doesn't mean any of the races I help with are any better!

    As for costs, it looks like the early reg. was a bargain - and nevermind he's tackling a huge area to mark and manage. $50 for day-of seems reasonable too, as hell - what did your last tire cost? And more importantly - how much did the last race you put on cost in time, enegry, organization, real out of pocket dollars, and so on?

    While the NMES is dandy and all, it's not so bad to have an event that is covered by insurance, has the land managers blessings, and will actually be marked and perhaps even suppoted to some extent.

    For what it's worth, the CX races we just helped get going here in Santa Fe cost about $345 for a permit for one day. And that was for a tiny little city park! You know what it got us? An awesome time by all 61 racers, and kept the peace with the neighbors and other users.

    Anyhow - I'd suggest giving Stephen the benefit of the doubt and try it out - THEN criticize, or wait until someone posts up internet chatter about how well/awful/whatever it went from actual experience.

    I wish I could make it - but cannot. I am very bummed.
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    I don't recall "yapping" or "Criticizing" I simply was posting up a question about the cost of the race on these forums (which was used to advertise his race). Sounds like I am not the only one who thinks that that cost is exorbanent. Just wanted to know why is all.

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    Not knocking the race or promoter per se, but today was the first time I saw a link to the race website. The fact that the URL was incorrect didn't help matters. Maybe it had been linked somewhere here in the past but I've been looking for information since I was at least mildly interested in participating and hadn't come across it.

    Didn't mean for my previous remarks to seem rude. I appreciate all the effort that goes into making one of these things happen. Just seems like there wasn't much information available and I hadn't seen anything on the NM board since the pre-ride was canceled in August. I would have been ok with doing the pre-ride myself but haven't been able to track down a course map and it still doesn't appear to be on the website. I'm not asking for "intricate" details or "dissection." Just the basics.

    Maybe the information is out there. I'm not much into racing and perhaps I just didn't know where to look??
    Last edited by cdaddy; 10-21-2008 at 10:57 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSweetleaf
    I don't recall "yapping" or "Criticizing" I simply was posting up a question about the cost of the race on these forums (which was used to advertise his race).
    Tim - you were definately not yapping - that's mostly me, it'd seem...
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdaddy
    I'm not asking for "intricate" details or "dissection." Just the basics.
    Location, cost, start time, length(s) were there - but not the map, so fair enough...

    Quote Originally Posted by cdaddy
    Maybe the information is out there. I'm not much into racing and perhaps I just didn't know where to look??
    More info. has been posted to the bike racers email list (see nmcycling.com), and better yet - it'd be pretty easy to corner Stephen at the shop and pick his brain until the cows come home.

    I didn't mean to come across like a d1ck - which I guess I usually do, but it was the vibe I was getting from "$50 is crazy" sort of comments. I just wanted to note that putting on any sort of event is a lot of work - but I guess thats redundant.
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    Caja

    I can't believe I'm reading this! Some biker had an idea to get the FIRST official USAC sanctioned Marathon MTB Race in this state, and there are mtb racers who don't want to support it.
    How many of you have promoted a bike race? They don't happen without support from the racing community. Late fees, later fees, day of race registration late later fees, so what? It's the FIRST official USAC sanctioned Marathon MTB Race in this state, and we mtbers should be behind the promoter all the way.
    I "love" the NMES also, and the cost is amazing. But don't you think for a second that those events don't take some background work. NMES is not supported at all, the courses are barely ever marked, and there is no food and water supplies unless the racers arrange it.
    Caja is marked, supported, officiated (for those of us who think we finished in front of that one guy, we'll know the truth), insured, for us who need insurance, and the promoter is required to locate those of us who were not able to follow the required course markings.
    $50.00? A BARGAIN!

    BE THERE!

    @#$%^&*+=ING moo!!!!!!!,

    C Cow

  13. #13
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    will work to race

    any chance for a scholarship,work trade, loan,or grant? feel for the poor and tightwads?

  14. #14
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    $50 cost is because USAC is a rip-off organization that pays $$$ to their admin while ignoring many racer needs. This comes from a long-time ex-racer and ex-promoter. I was with the panel of promoters that met with USAC top dawgs to discuss their presence in NM racing a few years ago. The CEO never gave any of us a good reason why we should pay USAC prices, so we blew them off. I loved ACA and its grass-roots loyalty, fair pricing and customer (ie racer) service.
    I've always hated USAC. Their races always cost twice as much with half the satisfaction and service that ACA provided. USAC wants to give all their $ to their execs and developing elite racers - not back to the racers who provide all that $, wether it be in the form of customer service, reduced insurance rates, or anything else.
    Hell, I even hated it when NORBA became USAC property. The level of grass roots MTB racing support took a dive then too. In Georgia all the MTB racers said "F#*k the new NORBA and created SORBA.
    I don't care if it's worth that price to race to some people. It's a ripoff comapred to the quality and price of ACA races. $50 is a ripoff for any 1 day race. Especially in a place as boring as Caja del Rio. Did you guyTaos or Big Friggin Loop? Who really needs officiating at a race like this anyway? Hell, the honor system worked in the other endurance races - won't it work in this little group of racers too?
    Also if this is really endurance off-road racing, riders are supposed to be their own support - just like old-school NORBA MTB races (I mean SORBA...no ACA).
    Last edited by delnorte; 10-27-2008 at 12:28 PM.

  15. #15
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    TJ, I know you have put in years and years and hours and hours making racing in NM fun and competitive and accessible. I know the "bad old days" of USAC were not cool, and that they essentially shunned NM and other smaller states (as well as P.O.'d big regions like the south east). That was actually quite a while back - and that fabulous ACA proved to run its course here in NM rather quickly. The NMORS has been doing just fine sanctioned by the USAC since its switch "back" years ago - costs are cheap, courses are great, and turnouts the same. Dave H. has been a capable and friendly advocate of cycling / racing for years, and herded the cats quite well.

    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    I was with the panel of promoters that met with USAC top dawgs to discuss their presence in NM racing a few years ago. The CEO never gave any of us a good reason why we should pay USAC prices, so we blew them off. I loved ACA and its grass-roots loyalty, fair pricing and customer (ie racer) service.
    I was with the panel of promoters and officals that met with ACA top dawgs to discuss their presence in NM this past year and it became clear that while the intentions were good and well - the usefulness and feasability of an 'alternate' sanctioning body in a small race turnout state like NM was marginal at best, and troublesome at worst. The ACA spent over $10k on the CO state Champs and couldn't offer NM a dime. That was with 500+ license holders here! Grass-roots loyalty for regions / states like CO that have huge turnouts at weekday training TT's in February... otherwise, they offered little in the way of better CS or cheaper costs. Just compare apples to apples.

    Otherwise, the ACA was/is a good organization with some good people, although last year there was a huge exodus of all the top dawgs you likely remember fondly. Look up their newsletters and check it out - if they still have all the somewhat less than positive ones on their website (another dodgy resource).




    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    USAC wants to give all their $ to their execs and developing elite racers - not back to the racers who provide all that $, wether it be in the form of customer service, reduced insurance rates, or anything else.
    Maybe this is all carefully crafted "glen bait" - but USAC learned a big lesson some years ago with the huge backlash they saw - spinning of SORBA and ACA and WORS and all the other regional organizations. And I hate to point out that you're incorrect about cash flowing back to racers. I can't think of much that the ACA contributed to the NM race scene in terms of hardware or cash. We are almost done founding NMBRA (NM Bike Racers Assoc.) as a formal 501(c)(3) Non-Profit "Local Asociation" (LA), which will give us the oppurtunity to collect $10 for each annual road license sold, and $5 for each mtb license sold. Thats a lot of cash! That can be turned into real uses - like a good race kit, like helping subsidise youth racers, and so on.

    As for those other claims, we found at the last couple of promoter meetings that the fees to put on a race were about the same, and typically were slightly lower for USAC. Insurance was better, USAC even ofers stupid-cheap "catastrophic" insurance to un/under-insured racers so that they are covered for medical costs if they wreck themselves at races.

    The USAC website is a powerful tool for racers and promoters. The local and regional reps are helpful and responsive. Their LA director is great. Results and rankings are clear and easily tracked / searched. They went out of there way to do local Officials Clinics to help with the USAC / ACA transition.

    There's tons of room for improvement, but in the last 4-5 years they have gone to great efforts to repair the 'injustices' of a previous era you are so embittered by - like a lot of others. Frankly - I could give a rats azz- as ACA and USAC provide a similar product. Cost is a wash - so I'll take all the aforementioned benefits (tons not mentioned) over some pokey grass-roots-ish seeming organization that really is just interesetd in being a CO sanctioing body...



    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    Hell, I even hated it when NORBA became USAC property. The level of grass roots MTB racing support took a dive then too.
    Quite the contrary - as the era you speak of was about when more and more endurance racing / rides started happening - and they used to be more touchy-feely-grass-rootsy until it got so popular! Then some of the founding promoters bickered, and spun off their own companies and events (GG and 24HOA) and so on - but in the meantime, tons of 1-day, locally supported/promoted rides/races started gaining momentum. USAC has had little impact one way or another on this powerful movement that has it's latest iteration in NMES and VT125 events, and of course - the grand daddy of them all - the GDR. Ain't no sanctioning body, CEO, or support there.

    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    I don't care if it's worth that price to race to some people. It's a ripoff compared to the quality and price of ACA races. $50 is a ripoff for any 1 day race.
    I guess you do care then... as for this illustrious 'quality' - perhaps you just meant 'price', as the quality is no different - better or worse. Again - regardless of sanctioning body - a race is good or not based on the promoters efforts, the course, the promotion, and all that fun stuff that makes a racing scene worthy. USAC didn't kill racing -as I'd posit that the era of 4X4 / ATV type recreation, video games, Cheetos, and lazy-azz america in general contributed much more to the demise of racing - local/grassroots and national level.

    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    Especially in a place as boring as Caja del Rio. Did you guys ride Taos or Big Friggin Loop? Who really needs officiating at a race like this anyway? Hell, the honor system worked in the other endurance races - won't it work in this little group of racers too?
    Why the hate on Caja? There's a sh1tload of terrain out there. Nevermind the sick FR stuff Rich, Neal, and the others have been building up! I personally skipped Taos as the route is kind of tedious/contrived in my opinon - but I did do SFBFL (also a bit contrived with Atalya...) though I was shunned / ignored for starting the love-fest of free bro-dom grass-rootsy events too early. Oh, but make sure you sign a waiver! Even though I wanted to puke up on Tesuque Peak and wobbled down to the chemical toilets at Winsor/REM 'just in time' - I beat Jens' time by 10 minues. But alas, as noted - no one seemed to care and as an unofficial (weren't we all?) participant didn't get to have my name/time posted in the bragging rights. Boo-hoo-hoo. I really do care. pffft.


    Quote Originally Posted by delnorte
    Also if this is really endurance off-road racing, riders are supposed to be their own support - just like old-school NORBA MTB races (I mean SORBA...no ACA).
    Kind of like sucking on spent GU wrappers? I love that story!

    Good topic, and a lot of subtle components to it to really know and digest.
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  16. #16
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    I beat Jens' time by 10 minues. But alas, as noted - no one seemed to care and as an unofficial (weren't we all?) participant didn't get to have my name/time posted in the bragging rights. Boo-hoo-hoo.
    it's hard to believe and take seriously when you post a time for a ride and you didn't even show .take it like a man and drop it before it becomes more of a laughable.
    Now if you would have started with the official start you could redeem yourself {next year}.Certain things do apply and affect times=like a nice chat before you hammer up Atalaya , a slow guy in front of you and no where to pass 'em,a fast pace line in the beginning,or you stop and help another and so forth ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by makachut
    Certain things do apply and affect times=like a nice chat before you hammer up Atalaya , a slow guy in front of you and no where to pass 'em,a fast pace line in the beginning,or you stop and help another and so forth ....
    Wow! Really? Just like in a real race or something? I might know a little bit about how those subtleties affect an overall event time/race effort. How 'bout riding Atalya and DB Central in the dark.. that may have an impact on ones time, right? I do think its funny as hell you mention a PACELINE in the context of a NMES event. Sounds sacriligious or something.

    I think you missed my point about NMES "races" and why I brought up my unofficial ride time. It's like politics or something, where when it suits those involved theres one message ("...yo bro, it's cool, it's informal - you know - no pesky sanctioning/license issues, self supported, honor system, yadda yadda, etc...") or perhaps another ("... must sign in/out, sign a waiver, start at such and such a time and place, and so on...").

    It ends up sounding diluted and wishy-washy is all Im sayin' - like most politicians who talk out of both sides of there mouth.

    Anyhow... I know it's useless to belabor this side-track. Any comments on the actual discussion? And did you help Stephen out in exchange for a free entry this past weekend? Did anyone participate?
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    My time for next years la Tierra race is blanky blank,I won't be able to make the start but add my time into the single speed cat. I have family and other things to do at the time the race starts,and you can send the prize to me.What if Lance wanted a special solo start time at Leadville this year? Would he still be in the same race as the others ? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by makachut
    My time for next years la Tierra race is blanky blank,I won't be able to make the start but add my time into the single speed cat. I have family and other things to do at the time the race starts,and you can send the prize to me.What if Lance wanted a special solo start time at Leadville this year? Would he still be in the same race as the others ? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
    Good point. Good bait.

  20. #20
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    That's WAY too much to read while on the clock, and the GU wrappers story is someone else from VDN. And yes, you took the bait just like I knew you would... You're so easy, Glennie.
    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    TJ, I know you have put in years and years and hours and hours making racing in NM fun and competitive and accessible. I know the "bad old days" of USAC were not cool, and that they essentially shunned NM and other smaller states (as well as P.O.'d big regions like the south east). That was actually quite a while back - and that fabulous ACA proved to run its course here in NM rather quickly. The NMORS has been doing just fine sanctioned by the USAC since its switch "back" years ago - costs are cheap, courses are great, and turnouts the same. Dave H. has been a capable and friendly advocate of cycling / racing for years, and herded the cats quite well.


    I was with the panel of promoters and officals that met with ACA top dawgs to discuss their presence in NM this past year and it became clear that while the intentions were good and well - the usefulness and feasability of an 'alternate' sanctioning body in a small race turnout state like NM was marginal at best, and troublesome at worst. The ACA spent over $10k on the CO state Champs and couldn't offer NM a dime. That was with 500+ license holders here! Grass-roots loyalty for regions / states like CO that have huge turnouts at weekday training TT's in February... otherwise, they offered little in the way of better CS or cheaper costs. Just compare apples to apples.

    Otherwise, the ACA was/is a good organization with some good people, although last year there was a huge exodus of all the top dawgs you likely remember fondly. Look up their newsletters and check it out - if they still have all the somewhat less than positive ones on their website (another dodgy resource).





    Maybe this is all carefully crafted "glen bait" - but USAC learned a big lesson some years ago with the huge backlash they saw - spinning of SORBA and ACA and WORS and all the other regional organizations. And I hate to point out that you're incorrect about cash flowing back to racers. I can't think of much that the ACA contributed to the NM race scene in terms of hardware or cash. We are almost done founding NMBRA (NM Bike Racers Assoc.) as a formal 501(c)(3) Non-Profit "Local Asociation" (LA), which will give us the oppurtunity to collect $10 for each annual road license sold, and $5 for each mtb license sold. Thats a lot of cash! That can be turned into real uses - like a good race kit, like helping subsidise youth racers, and so on.

    As for those other claims, we found at the last couple of promoter meetings that the fees to put on a race were about the same, and typically were slightly lower for USAC. Insurance was better, USAC even ofers stupid-cheap "catastrophic" insurance to un/under-insured racers so that they are covered for medical costs if they wreck themselves at races.

    The USAC website is a powerful tool for racers and promoters. The local and regional reps are helpful and responsive. Their LA director is great. Results and rankings are clear and easily tracked / searched. They went out of there way to do local Officials Clinics to help with the USAC / ACA transition.

    There's tons of room for improvement, but in the last 4-5 years they have gone to great efforts to repair the 'injustices' of a previous era you are so embittered by - like a lot of others. Frankly - I could give a rats azz- as ACA and USAC provide a similar product. Cost is a wash - so I'll take all the aforementioned benefits (tons not mentioned) over some pokey grass-roots-ish seeming organization that really is just interesetd in being a CO sanctioing body...




    Quite the contrary - as the era you speak of was about when more and more endurance racing / rides started happening - and they used to be more touchy-feely-grass-rootsy until it got so popular! Then some of the founding promoters bickered, and spun off their own companies and events (GG and 24HOA) and so on - but in the meantime, tons of 1-day, locally supported/promoted rides/races started gaining momentum. USAC has had little impact one way or another on this powerful movement that has it's latest iteration in NMES and VT125 events, and of course - the grand daddy of them all - the GDR. Ain't no sanctioning body, CEO, or support there.


    I guess you do care then... as for this illustrious 'quality' - perhaps you just meant 'price', as the quality is no different - better or worse. Again - regardless of sanctioning body - a race is good or not based on the promoters efforts, the course, the promotion, and all that fun stuff that makes a racing scene worthy. USAC didn't kill racing -as I'd posit that the era of 4X4 / ATV type recreation, video games, Cheetos, and lazy-azz america in general contributed much more to the demise of racing - local/grassroots and national level.


    Why the hate on Caja? There's a sh1tload of terrain out there. Nevermind the sick FR stuff Rich, Neal, and the others have been building up! I personally skipped Taos as the route is kind of tedious/contrived in my opinon - but I did do SFBFL (also a bit contrived with Atalya...) though I was shunned / ignored for starting the love-fest of free bro-dom grass-rootsy events too early. Oh, but make sure you sign a waiver! Even though I wanted to puke up on Tesuque Peak and wobbled down to the chemical toilets at Winsor/REM 'just in time' - I beat Jens' time by 10 minues. But alas, as noted - no one seemed to care and as an unofficial (weren't we all?) participant didn't get to have my name/time posted in the bragging rights. Boo-hoo-hoo. I really do care. pffft.



    Kind of like sucking on spent GU wrappers? I love that story!

    Good topic, and a lot of subtle components to it to really know and digest.

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