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  1. #1
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    Taking a gamble on a Zen II

    With no word on the state of things at Mountain Cycle and how poorly the 2012's have been received I still went forward with a purchase from Crosslake sales, $799 was a fair deal to me even if they continue to fall in price.

    The other frames I considered before learning of the new Zen are the Foes Shaver and Santa Cruz Nickel. I like staight tubed frames, steepish HTA's, and the Turntable shock link has that cool SB-66 like eccentric which I think looks and packages better than two links like the Shaver and Nickel.

    So I have a question about high/ forward pivots as this is will be my first single pivot and I am no suspension wizard-

    If I run an eccentric bottom bracket (like problem solvers) clocking the crank spindle between the 7 and 8 O-clock position within the BB shell (viewed from D-side) to shorten the CS length and lower the BB height, how will this affect the bikes behavior as it seems this would effectively move the swing arm pivot forward and higher?

    Quirky I know, but I must consider as I will be running a taller fork and I like short chain stays.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    With no word on the state of things at Mountain Cycle and how poorly the 2012's have been received I still went forward with a purchase from Crosslake sales, $799 was a fair deal to me even if they continue to fall in price.

    The other frames I considered before learning of the new Zen are the Foes Shaver and Santa Cruz Nickel. I like staight tubed frames, steepish HTA's, and the Turntable shock link has that cool SB-66 like eccentric which I think looks and packages better than two links like the Shaver and Nickel.

    So I have a question about high/ forward pivots as this is will be my first single pivot and I am no suspension wizard-

    If I run an eccentric bottom bracket (like problem solvers) clocking the crank spindle between the 7 and 8 O-clock position within the BB shell (viewed from D-side) to shorten the CS length and lower the BB height, how will this affect the bikes behavior as it seems this would effectively move the swing arm pivot forward and higher?

    Quirky I know, but I must consider as I will be running a taller fork and I like short chain stays.
    You're never really going to know till you try it with a regular BB and then try it with the EBB. The only thing you are changing is the angle at which the chain drives the rear wheel relative to the pivot. But, even a small change can have a big effect.

    My biggest question is: what are going to do when the first part breaks? Replacement parts are not available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You're never really going to know till you try it with a regular BB and then try it with the EBB. The only thing you are changing is the angle at which the chain drives the rear wheel relative to the pivot. But, even a small change can have a big effect.
    Of course youíre right, nothing ventured nothing gained. I will be getting an EBB and find out for myself, perhaps my posting a follow up will benefit other members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    My biggest question is: what are going to do when the first part breaks? Replacement parts are not available.
    A valid concern indeed. My thought is if it is a small part like a derailleur hanger or the shock link I can machine a new part. If itís the front or rear triangle Iím out the cash, but if I like the ride it will have been worth the investment to better gauge what works for me. It is a risk, but I believe the risk vs. reward scale balances in my favor.

    I have never broke a frame or had issues that invoked a warranty claim so while company support would be comforting, Iím not to worried. The Zen will have to be a real piece of garbage if it does break prematurely, and it looks like a lot was invested in the latest MC offerings so this scenario seems remote.

    The geo looks like what Iím after and I truly believe single pivot with a link driven shock is a win. I canít for the life of me understand why Santa Cruz is dropping the Butcher and Nickel.

    Iím actually very excited as the Zen incorporates so many elements Iíve been wanting. It could go bad for me, but I got a feeling the Zen II is going to be something really special.

    Worst case is I hate it, it breaks, I learn a lesson and buy another manufacturers frame. It seems a very possible alternative that I end up loving it and get years of service at a smoking deal.

    As an aside, Crosslake Sales was really great to deal with. I called the day after I ordered and Kelly, the head service rep, hunted down a spare derailleur hanger and threw it in with the frame before it shipped free of charge.

  4. #4
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    I got my Zen II last week. Looks good, better than I was expecting as the prototype Zen I had seen regularly over the last 2 years was an XL. Definitely looks a lot better in the smaller size.

    The warranty issue is a valid concern and something each individual person will have to weigh up before pulling the trigger. My experience with some other brands is that a warranty isn't worth much on some occasions anyway. That all aside, the bikes look strong and as with Jon, if a hanger breaks, I'll have one machined up.

    The suspension is engineered by the guys who did the Yeti switch system, so it should prove to be a nice design. As with you, I like the geometry numbers and think it all stacks up will with offerings from other companies.

    If the frame goes and has issues, I'll weigh it up at the time and probably have it repaired, but I hope I never have to worry about that. I've ridden Proflex's for 20 years and they are a pain to get bits for and machining/improvising becomes one of the best options. If the San An and Zen are bikes that leave a mark on me, getting bits machined is somewhere I would be prepared to go.

    What fork are you looking to run on the bike Jon? i am running a Revelation RTL Ti at 150mm. Rakes the front out a bit to about 68 degrees, but the BB height is still fine.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-zen.jpg  


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Of course youíre right, nothing ventured nothing gained. I will be getting an EBB and find out for myself, perhaps my posting a follow up will benefit other members.



    A valid concern indeed. My thought is if it is a small part like a derailleur hanger or the shock link I can machine a new part. If itís the front or rear triangle Iím out the cash, but if I like the ride it will have been worth the investment to better gauge what works for me. It is a risk, but I believe the risk vs. reward scale balances in my favor.

    I have never broke a frame or had issues that invoked a warranty claim so while company support would be comforting, Iím not to worried. The Zen will have to be a real piece of garbage if it does break prematurely, and it looks like a lot was invested in the latest MC offerings so this scenario seems remote.

    The geo looks like what Iím after and I truly believe single pivot with a link driven shock is a win. I canít for the life of me understand why Santa Cruz is dropping the Butcher and Nickel.

    Iím actually very excited as the Zen incorporates so many elements Iíve been wanting. It could go bad for me, but I got a feeling the Zen II is going to be something really special.

    Worst case is I hate it, it breaks, I learn a lesson and buy another manufacturers frame. It seems a very possible alternative that I end up loving it and get years of service at a smoking deal.

    As an aside, Crosslake Sales was really great to deal with. I called the day after I ordered and Kelly, the head service rep, hunted down a spare derailleur hanger and threw it in with the frame before it shipped free of charge.
    Yeah, a broken hanger is ok, there's a company that sells every hanger ever made. But, when one of the pivots wears out, it's going to be hard to find a new one.

    I also like the single pivot and small link or links to controll wheel movement. It's stiff, centralized, simple and as effective as it needs to be. Apparently, the Nickel/Butcher wasn't selling well enough. I think, because they marketed it as a cheaper alternating. They should have marketed it as an evolution and improved version of the single pivot.

    I have emailed Crosslakes three times asking how they would handle warranty issues. I never got an answer.

    I really wish the new Zen was a match for me. But, no warranty, 1.5" HT top and bottom, non-standard rear axel. I could live with the BB, I just can't live with the rest.

    Let us know how yours turns out and post some pics!

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    After an old DH bike of mine had a bolt up rear axel, I have been sold on them since. The 142mm hub width is becoming more and more common now, so the rear end is a non issue for me. As a bonus though my hubs could be converted from 135mm QR to the 142mm 12mm axel so a new wheel set wasn't needed.

    Why is the tapered head tube an issue for you, I thought that would have been the smallest issue of the three. 44mm upper cup and a 49mm lower, not really an issue to get a headset and run whatever fork you want.

    I have to say, the Turn cranks are really growing on me. If they could take a new spider with a 104/64 BCD I would rate them as almost perfect. The BB os super smooth, just chainring sizes are limited with the 120/80 BCD. A 38/26 combo is the smallest I can find. Not a bad ratio for the Zen, but it could make sustained climbs on the San An interesting.

    On the pivot wear issue, I suspect by the time the pivot wears I will have moved on, or at the very least the bike will owe me nothing by that point. I'd be surprised if it wore out after a few seasons use.

  7. #7
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    The HT, for the Zen, is way overkill. It should have been a tapered HT. and, it looks awfull, it looks like a beer can on the frame.

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    Man, that is nice looking to my eyes. I was hoping you would weigh in sammydog.

    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    The suspension is engineered by the guys who did the Yeti switch system, so it should prove to be a nice design. As with you, I like the geometry numbers and think it all stacks up will with offerings from other companies.
    I thought the SB-66 switch eccentric pivot was really clever, But was convinced single pivot was for me. A linkage driven shock seemed an obvious step in the right direction, and they both are packaged together in the Zen II. The geo #ís do stack with that of other companies offerings, save for the HTA. I demoíed a Foes Shaver having a HTA of 67* and found it a bit to slack for my liking.

    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    What fork are you looking to run on the bike Jon? I am running a Revelation RTL Ti at 150mm. Rakes the front out a bit to about 68 degrees, but the BB height is still fine.
    Some won't like this at all, but I aim to run a 150mm Maverick DUC 32. The A2C is around 515mm so it will relax the HTA a bit. My Titus El Guapo sits at about 68.5* HTA and I like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    The HT, for the Zen, is way overkill. It should have been a tapered HT. and, it looks awfull, it looks like a beer can on the frame.
    I was under the impression the head tube is indeed tapered 1 1/8Ē top 1 ĹĒ bottom. I will certainly post pics and impressions when it arrives. If you have the time try calling Crosslake and ask for Kelly, You will get a definite answer concerning warranty issues from her. I suspect at the rock bottom price these are being offered it will be factory warrant only, in other words NONE.

  9. #9
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    You're right it is tapered, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I was under the impression the head tube is indeed tapered 1 1/8Ē top 1 ĹĒ bottom. I will certainly post pics and impressions when it arrives. If you have the time try calling Crosslake and ask for Kelly, You will get a definite answer concerning warranty issues from her. I suspect at the rock bottom price these are being offered it will be factory warrant only, in other words NONE.
    It is tapered. 44mm inner diameter at the top and 49mm diameter at the bottom. I am putting in one of the FSA adjustable headsets in mine. My fork has a 1 1/8th steerer but that is no problem either.

    The head tube on the San An is 1.5" top and bottom.

    Pretty sure it was Kelly I had an email conversation with when I bought the San An off them. Got back to me very quickly each time as I was having issues with ebay sending to Australia despite the add saying it would. I can't fault their customer service based on my experiences.

    Might have to contact them again and see if they can sell me a spare hanger though. Didn't even cross my mind at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    After an old DH bike of mine had a bolt up rear axel, I have been sold on them since. The 142mm hub width is becoming more and more common now, so the rear end is a non issue for me. As a bonus though my hubs could be converted from 135mm QR to the 142mm 12mm axel so a new wheel set wasn't needed.
    Iíve always been vexed by 9mm QRís, seems odd it has taken this long to focus on this particular area of MTBís. I understand how some are happy with 9x135 and feel they are being squeezed into a direction they donít want to go. Iím running a single speed Hadley hub so converting does not present a problem for me. The 12x142 axle system itself seems very stout and straight forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    I have to say, the Turn cranks are really growing on me. If they could take a new spider with a 104/64 BCD I would rate them as almost perfect. The BB os super smooth, just chainring sizes are limited with the 120/80 BCD. A 38/26 combo is the smallest I can find. Not a bad ratio for the Zen, but it could make sustained climbs on the San An interesting.
    I have a BMX background so press fit bearing cups are really a throw back in my perspective. I like the Shimano threaded external BBís, but Iím glad for the Zen II having a PF30 so I can experiment with an EBB.

    I bought a set of Rotor cranks with a 74/110 five arm compact double spider. I was never happy that everything had gone to a four arm spider. The 35mm spindle on the Turn cranks are intriguing, but I think they nerfed it up putting the 80/120 spider on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    The HT, for the ZenÖ, it looks like a beer can on the frame.
    You say that like itís a bad thing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    You say that like itís a bad thing.
    I prefer my beer in a bottle!

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    Just an FYI on the Hanger and Rear Axel: They are Syntace (thats the brand name) X12 so parts are available from just about any dealer. Happy Riding

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA009 View Post
    Just an FYI on the Hanger and Rear Axel: They are Syntace (thats the brand name) X12 so parts are available from just about any dealer. Happy Riding
    Awesome, I knew the axel was Syntace (it's written all over it) but its really nice to know about the hanger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    The HT, for the Zen,Ö it looks like a beer can on the frame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    You say that like itís a bad thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    I prefer my beer in a bottle!
    Be it a mountain bike with a head tube shaped like a beer can called the Zen or a Buddhist temple made from a million empty beer bottles, I think we can agree that whatever oneís preferred barely based beverage container, when implemented in structural architecture it is the true path to spiritual enlightenment.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-buddabeer.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    The 35mm spindle on the Turn cranks are intriguing, but I think they nerfed it up putting the 80/120 spider on them.
    I like the 35mm spindle,, particularly like that the system easily can take other standards as well.

    On the spider issue, that is the only thing that really hurts these cranks, The 80/120 spider seriously limits the ring choice. I wanted to put 36/24 rings on the San An, but the smallest you can go with the spider (that I can find rings for) is 38/26.

    If turn ever bring out a smaller spider then the cranks will be spot on. The praxis BB is super smooth, absolutely love it and would happily get one of their BB's again. the chain rings look nice as well, but I have swapped them out for smaller truvativ rings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Be it a mountain bike with a head tube shaped like a beer can called the Zen or a Buddhist temple made from a million empty beer bottles, I think we can agree that whatever oneís preferred barely based beverage container, when implemented in structural architecture it is the true path to spiritual enlightenment.
    So the lack of a bottle opener in the rear drop outs is a design flaw?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    So the lack of a bottle opener in the rear drop outs is a design flaw?
    I thought the reason for using the Turn 35mm cranks was because a bottle cap fits snugly in the spindle hollow, thus allowing for efficient cap removal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I thought the reason for using the Turn 35mm cranks was because a bottle cap fits snugly in the spindle hollow, thus allowing for efficient cap removal.
    I think you may be onto something, Might have to do some tinkering with the cranks tonight while watching the tour.

    Surely something could be retrofitted in there.

    Worst case you could store one in the spindle and work out a plug for the end.

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    I'm sure you could Mickey Mouse something up that would work-
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Medium Zen II on scale

    I thought this might be of interest as Mountain Cycle doesn't advertise weights.

    I'm not sure if those companies that do, do so with shock, but I didn't want to remove the shock just for a pic. X Fusion lists the 165/38 02 RCX at 228g. I believe the Zen II is equiped with the 200/57. The Syntace thru axle weighs 39g.

    Med. Zen II Frame, X Fusion 02 RCX shock, and 12x142 Syntace axle weigh in at 8lbs. 3oz. or 3700g-

    Frame only probably closer to 7lbs. 8oz. or 3420g. This is pretty much what I expected when I un boxed it, seems very stout. It will probably weigh around 29lbs. (13kg.) once assembled.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-zeniiscale.jpg  

    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    Looks nice. I'm hoping for around the 13kg mark when I get some new wheels.

    Still need to build mine, got all the bits to go on, just been lazy.

    Parts sitting around though;
    Revelation RLTi forks.
    FSA Obit Adjustable Headset
    XTR Brakes
    XT 10 speed front and rear mech/shifters/chain/cassette
    FSA carbon bar (needs to be replaced with something wider and flatter).

    Sharing the wheels with the San An for now until I decide what it is I really want.

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    The Syntace Vectoer carbon bars may be right for you-
    Universal Cycles -- Syntace Vector Carbon Riser Bar

    I'm not sure where to find the wider 29.1" (740mm) set at the moment, but these may be worth your consideration.

    The Zen is a tad heavy, but looking it over I see nothing I would have compromised for the sake of weight savings. I intend to catch some air while I still have the moxie to do so. I had contemplated building a Battery into a trail bike, but the Zen II is lighter with better fit and has the Turntable link- Joy

    I love the new Shimano stoppers, but I will be running my old Magura Marta SL brakes. Mine are the white w/ red accent and carbon levers, but I special ordered replacement yellow reservoir caps off the Raceline series so I think these will look really well with the paint scheme on the frame.

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    Id rather save a little weight in the wheels than the frame anyway. And by the time I fill my camelbak with food and water, a little change to frame weight is negligible anyway. Its not like I am racing the thing.

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    I totally agree on frame weight vs. wheel weight.

    I think American Classics are an excellent wheel choice, but ultimately I chose Stans Arch EX as I need very specific hubs to accomodate the 6 speed rear and the 24mm axle on the DUC 32 forks. Apparently American Classic rims are only sold as completes.

    These may also be worthy of your consideration, they would have been my choice if not for the afore mentioned.

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    American Classics were on my short list alone with Easton Havons and something based around Hope Hubs.

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    Handlebar: take a look at an Answer 720 AM Carbon bar. I just picked one up for my new SC Nickel frame.

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    I'll add it to the list of potential candidates.

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    Considering the santa cruz nickel was $10 more I would have bought that. I have two mountain cycle battery bikes and will stop using one of them soon so the other one has spare parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dytrdr5 View Post
    Considering the santa cruz nickel was $10 more I would have bought that. I have two mountain cycle battery bikes and will stop using one of them soon so the other one has spare parts.
    Na, the geo numbers weren't right for me.

    Besides, the nickel has a 1/2" less travel, comes with a Fox RP 23 rather than the X Fusion, the switch technology turntable eccentric is much more robust than a simple intermediate link for stiffness, I prefer the straight tubed front triangle, and I even like the color

    Money wasn't an issue, between the Zen II, Foes Shaver, and the Nickel, the Nickel placed third.

    If I like this well enough I will buy a second to have on deck for back up like your doing with your Batterys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dytrdr5 View Post
    Considering the santa cruz nickel was $10 more I would have bought that. I have two mountain cycle battery bikes and will stop using one of them soon so the other one has spare parts.
    I paid $675 brand new for the Nickel from Huck & Roll. Brown Santa is delivering it tomorrow! The Nickel really reminds me of a modern SA, in that it is a very stout, do it all kinda bike.

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    The X-Fusion is a better shock. I'll be putting a CCDBA on mine.
    You can't feel a difference in stiffness between the two frames. If the Zen II is stiffer, it's because of the rear axel.

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    As far as stiffness is concerned I don't have a Nickel to compare to, but it wouldn't suprise me as I feel any single pivot design would benefit from running a link driven shock not only for tuning, but rigidity as well. The swingarm on the Zen feels like a welded member so if anything the eccentric could be considered overbuilt, way more stiff than the rear of my Horst link equiped Titus El Guapo.

    All that to say my comments weren't a dis on the Nickel, I think the Nickel is rad and would own one if it were closer to what I want in geometry. I was just saying that between the two I thought the Turntable switch was more trick as I was already dazzled by the Yetti SB-66.

    The rear axle is a win all around, so simple and strong. I'm not sure about the PF30 BB shell yet. I have to return the Problem solvers eccentric BB as it was a slop fit. I have a Beer Components on the way which after talking to Jim at Beer should be much more snug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    As far as stiffness is concerned I don't have a Nickel to compare to, but it wouldn't suprise me as I feel any single pivot design would benefit from running a link driven shock not only for tuning, but rigidity as well. The swingarm on the Zen feels like a welded member so if anything the eccentric could be considered overbuilt, way more stiff than the rear of my Horst link equiped Titus El Guapo.

    All that to say my comments weren't a dis on the Nickel, I think the Nickel is rad and would own one if it were closer to what I want in geometry. I was just saying that between the two I thought the Turntable switch was more trick as I was already dazzled by the Yetti SB-66.

    The rear axle is a win all around, so simple and strong. I'm not sure about the PF30 BB shell yet. I have to return the Problem solvers eccentric BB as it was a slop fit. I have a Beer Components on the way which after talking to Jim at Beer should be much more snug.
    Yeah, I think both are a little overbuilt, which is ok. I think the turntable is a great piece. I hope it makes it way onto some other frame someday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Yeah, I think both are a little overbuilt, which is ok. I think the turntable is a great piece. I hope it makes it way onto some other frame someday.
    You won't have to wait long for that to happen. When I'm not on my phone I can post more details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    You won't have to wait long for that to happen. When I'm not on my phone I can post more details.
    Oh, please do. Can't wait to hear where Turntable might turn up, lol.

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    Do I detect a not of sarcasm in there?

    Anyway, as you probably know/guessed, G is doing his own thing, this is a post from elsewhere

    Quote Originally Posted by g
    We have the license for the Turntable suspension and the (full) monocoque style design is 95% done - this is the bike I have always wanted to do without having to make compromises. I'm readying to hand it over to the engineer types and then we'll move to initial tooling and proto. Our effort though is the first option of ultra low volume, where each and every frame we are looking at doing is hands on by yours truly and the 'team'.
    I've seen the final 3D renders of the bike, looks really nice. Very different to any of the new MC bikes.

    Having ridden the Turntable, I love it, so I will be interested to try this new frame when it comes out. Being made in this part of the world though, I am guessing it will be done in small numbers (thats an assumption on my part, not a comment guided by the people involved in the bike) and not sure how widely it will be distributed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    Do I detect a not of sarcasm in there?

    Anyway, as you probably know/guessed, G is doing his own thing, this is a post from elsewhere



    I've seen the final 3D renders of the bike, looks really nice. Very different to any of the new MC bikes.

    Having ridden the Turntable, I love it, so I will be interested to try this new frame when it comes out. Being made in this part of the world though, I am guessing it will be done in small numbers (thats an assumption on my part, not a comment guided by the people involved in the bike) and not sure how widely it will be distributed.

    No, not at all. I do, for real think the Turntable is a great piece. I hope G, this time, can make good use of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    No, not at all. I do, for real hint the Turntable is a great piece. I hope G, this time, can make good use of it.
    I'll make sure pics/info go up when they are available.

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    Where can that rendering be viewed? Or where is there more info? They must not have an exclusive license on the Turntable. Unless they just recently secured it. Because The Sotto Group told me it was available.

    This is very interesting. I hope something great comes of it.

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    There is no renderings on the net, well that I am aware of. G, has been letting little bits of info out on the net.

    Other than what he has put out there himself, I won't divulge anymore info/details as its not my place, nor my bike. happy to collate the info he throws out there though and put it on here.

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    Out with the new and in with the new

    I've only been riding the Titus since late January. I had the rear tri powder coated and believe the El Guapo in general to have the most eye appeal amungst the swoopy tubed bikes on the market.

    Unfortunately it has a 17.36" (441mm) chain stay and an overall wheel base of 45 1/8" (1146mm) otherwise the EG would be the one, very stable at speed but lumbersome in the slow and technical. The 6" of Horst link suspension with the Monarch RT3 works extremely well.

    Can't hardly wait to ride the Zen, after the experience i've gained on the EG as a baseline it should be very telling as I'm still very much at a stage where I'm trying to hone in on what my own personnal strengths, weaknesses, and preferences are.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-mceg.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    I got my Zen II last week. Looks good, better than I was expecting as the prototype Zen I had seen regularly over the last 2 years was an XL. Definitely looks a lot better in the smaller size.

    The warranty issue is a valid concern and something each individual person will have to weigh up before pulling the trigger. My experience with some other brands is that a warranty isn't worth much on some occasions anyway. That all aside, the bikes look strong and as with Jon, if a hanger breaks, I'll have one machined up.

    The suspension is engineered by the guys who did the Yeti switch system, so it should prove to be a nice design. As with you, I like the geometry numbers and think it all stacks up will with offerings from other companies.

    If the frame goes and has issues, I'll weigh it up at the time and probably have it repaired, but I hope I never have to worry about that. I've ridden Proflex's for 20 years and they are a pain to get bits for and machining/improvising becomes one of the best options. If the San An and Zen are bikes that leave a mark on me, getting bits machined is somewhere I would be prepared to go.

    What fork are you looking to run on the bike Jon? i am running a Revelation RTL Ti at 150mm. Rakes the front out a bit to about 68 degrees, but the BB height is still fine.
    dont care what the haterz say, the new lineup is dope

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    I took the new Zen out this morning, no time for pics or anything to in depth but I can say this was for sure a smart buy.

    She weighs in at 30 1/4 lbs. (13.720 kg) I run sticky tires, 165mm cranks, and my granny is 25t front 28t rear so climbing is a bear. Even so, the rear suspension tracks the terrain perfectly. The El Guapo is an extremely nice execution of the Horst link design, but the Zen is noticably better. The rear of the Zen is stiffer than a wedding d!ck.

    I am actually shocked at how well the rear performed. It is supple while having a fast rebound yet damped just right. I attribute this to the turn table design. You can feel the falling rate followed by the ramping up of the shock rate. The initial part of the rebound accelerates rapidly but slows as it stabilizes, like it gives easily but is eagar to stand back up without any sensation of bucking. Very natural feeling and the rear wheel always tracks and follows the terrain.

    Overall this is a fun, nimble, bomber of a bike that leaves me feeling more in control that will undoubtedly take abuse. I am quite happy with my decision to give the Zen a shot.

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    I was really impressed with the suspension on the San An, so I can't wait to get out on the Zen. Should finish the build tonight which means I can ride very soon.

    Can't wait to see some pics of your bike finished,

    What fork did you end up running? I have a 150mm Revelation on mine, a bit longer than should be on there so the head angle will slacken, and I am running a -0.5 degree headset. Hopefully its not too slack or I will need to turn the headset around. To compensate for the superslack head angle though I will be running a short stem.

    Great to hear you are loving yours though.

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    I'm running a Maverick DUC 32 150mm travel fork. The A2C is around 520mm. I measured the HTA at 68.1 deg. which was what I was aiming for.

    I wanted this frame as it measured at 69.5 deg. HTA with a 130mm fork so I had a feeling the DUC 32 fork would slacken the HTA to where I wanted it, it worked out perfectly.

    Hers a pic of the forks on my El Guapo-


    I'm 6'1" tall with a 34" inseam. The Zen frame is a medium so I run a 90mm stem. The Beer Components eccentric BB sets the cranks back and down 5mm so it helps correct the fact that the seat tube was slackened and puts the BB height right back to the listed 13.3" stock measurement.

    The stack and reach feel great for me, the short 16.7" (425mm) chainstay and overall short 42.7" (1084.5mm) wheel base make for a real playful ride.

    I'll try for some pics tommorrow.

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    Just measured my head angle to be 67 degrees with the 150mm Revelations and a -0.5 degree angleset. I will see how it rides and I may end up spinning the headset the other way which would put me at 68 degrees.

    I'll start with trial and error I guess.

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    I demo'ed a Foes Shaver that ran at 67 deg. on the head tube. The Shaver has a similar rear suspension design being single pivot with a added link to modify the shock rate and the travel is around the same as the Zen.

    That one degree of head tube angle really changed the handling. I didn't like it as much personally and feel anything beyond 68 deg. is better served on a longer travel bike traveling at stupid rediculous speeds. I built my Zen for trail duty and I'm kinda slow.

    Remember, as the head tube gets slackened the front wheel to BB distance increases (front center). This plays a huge roll in how a bike handles. The front center on my Zen with a 68 deg. HTA and a 520mm A2C fork measures 26" (660mm). That medium Shaver at 67 deg. HTA I rode had an identical front center as my large El Guapo having an HTA of 68.5 deg. both being 27.75" (705mm).

    I would be curious to know what your front center measures at with the slackset.

    Sorry, no pics yet

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    Heres a (poor quality) shot of the Zen II as ridden last Sunday. Not exactly how I want it set up, but good enough for a shake down.

    Lucky #13
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-zenside.jpg  

    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Nice, looks good with those forks.

    Any idea on the finished weight?

    Mine will be rideable tomorrow hopefully, but I just ordered some Stans Wheels so I don't have to share a wheelset with my San An.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    She weighs in at 30 1/4 lbs. (13.720 kg) I run sticky tires, 165mm cranks, and my granny is 25t front 28t rear so climbing is a bear.
    It would be nice to have less weight, but looking the frame over I'm not sure where they could have shaved mass and retained the confidence inspiring, brick house construction.

    It costs a little speed in the climbs, but I like to jump and drop. I would change nothing.

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    Here we go, finally a progress shot of my Zen2. Still a few parts to go.

    Traded some bits with a friend, they sent their 9 speed cassette instead of a 10, so waiting for that. Ordered a Stans NoTubes wheelset as well so i don't have to share these wheels with the San An.

    All up, looks like weighing in a tad under 13.5kg's. The Stans wheels will be a big reduction on the ones in the photo.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-zen1.jpg  

    Taking a gamble on a Zen II-zen2.jpg  


  53. #53
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    Looking pretty nice!

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    I'm really happy with this one, new wheels will be black which won't look as nice, but they will be lighter and more suited to where this bike is going to be ridden. The San An can keep the heavy duty wheels.

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    I had a Stans Arch EX laced to a 32 hole Hadley single speed hub for the rear. What model Stans rims did you order?

    I'm also curious about cable and brake line routing. It appears you ran yours using the tabs on the swing arm, does this work out well? I ended up running the rear D cable inside the swing arm, works good.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    Here is some more of an update taken from elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by g
    Well, 'we' have been working on a design for a monocoque for the past few months and on Friday I handed it over to the engineer in the team for FEA (finite element analysis) work then engineering design for tooling; so we are moving forward!

    A few people around here have been privy to what we have been doing but until we get it through the first few rounds of FEA and everyone's happy, the wraps shall stay on. What I can say is that it :

    1. It's a monocoque.

    2. It's made fully in the 'west'.

    3. It uses the same Turntable suspension license we used in the MC frames.

    4. It will come in 140 and 160mm

    andÖ

    5. Love it or hate it, we're using 27.5 wheels, as they make a LOT of sense.

    The design's aggressive and far more 'moto' inspired than anything currently on the market and I am looking at some interesting options for people to become involved.

    We are calling it 'Privateer' and when ready, I'll throw info up here to share
    The renders look really nice. Well I think so. Will be interesting to see how it pans out in the flesh.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    Here is some more of an update taken from elsewhere.



    The renders look really nice. Well I think so. Will be interesting to see how it pans out in the flesh.
    Wow, that sounds very interesting! Can't wait to see it. It sounds like someone is learning from past mistakes, good to see that.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    The Beer Components eccentric BB sets the cranks back and down 5mm so it helps correct the fact that the seat tube was slackened and puts the BB height right back to the listed 13.3" stock.....
    Watch out for moving the BB around like that. The suspension is still a SP design and the entire system is set very carefully to optimise chain forces and the like. Moving the BB even 5mm will change the performance characteristics of the system quite a bit.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It sounds like someone is learning from past mistakes, good to see that.
    I decided that it is not worth the comment in the end. I read back on a LOT of the opinions you spouted on various threads here over the past months Shawn and realised, in the end, what's the point?

    If people want any sort of information regarding the Zen II and SA 2.0, this is where you'll find me: https://www.facebook.com/groups/296660760405714/

    As many will attest to, I am more than happy to help those with the new bikes out where I can.

    Cheers and beers!

    g
    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]
    Last edited by G..; 08-04-2012 at 09:32 PM.
    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]

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    Quote Originally Posted by G.. View Post
    Watch out for moving the BB around like that. The suspension is still a SP design and the entire system is set very carefully to optimise chain forces and the like. Moving the BB even 5mm will change the performance characteristics of the system quite a bit.
    I was aware of this before I did so and am indeed cautious and weary of making adjustments in that regard. I could not gain a full understanding of what the effect would be without trying it for myself.

    I have only been on one ride since building the bike, but man-O-man this thing rides nice so far. I have not experienced any negative effects as of yet.

    The eccentric has an offset of 6mm. I clocked the cups in the BB shell at approximately 8 O clock viewed from the D side so the crank spindle went more back than down.

    I would imagine going down with the BB in relation to the pivot would be better for square edged hits and resisting pedal induced bob. If you have the time or inclination to post here again would you share your thoughts on what the potential change in performance characteristics would be? it would help me understand what to look for when next I ride.

    Thanks G, I'm really pleased with the Zen II and think you did a fantastic job.

  61. #61
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    Hey Jon, glad yer loving the ride and thanks for the words

    The effects of moving the BB will have more to do with the way the pedal force interacts with the rear. The system is tuned for optimal system feedback, so obviously moving points will diminish this somewhat. Now, that all said, the effects overall will probably be quite small, as the shock, and a fully loaded rider (of variable weight), has more than a little effect on the system as well! So overall I think you'll be all good; and if you're loving the ride, what's more to say eh?

    Come join the party here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/296660760405714/

    Cheers and beers,

    g

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    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by G.. View Post
    I decided that it is not worth the comment in the end. I read back on a LOT of the opinions you spouted on various threads here over the past months Shawn and realised, in the end, what's the point?

    If people want any sort of information regarding the Zen II and SA 2.0, this is where you'll find me: https://www.facebook.com/groups/296660760405714/

    As many will attest to, I am more than happy to help those with the new bikes out where I can.

    Cheers and beers!

    g
    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]
    Well, I wish you luck with what are doing now. It sounds interesting and I can't wait to see it.

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    I have Stans Alpines on the Stans Hubs. They were going super cheap locally, so I had to take a punt on them, Sure are light, fingers crossed they hold up as well as people have told me they do.

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    A more up to date shot of mine. Wheels are now on. Only thing missing is the front rotor, should have that sorted this week and I am away.

    Thinking I will need to turn the adjustable headset around, may be a tad slack at the moment.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-zen.jpg  


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    Those should be very light weight wheels indeed. Please report how they fair as I am contemplating a second lighter set of wheels for certain trails were my climbing suffers.

    Your Zen is looking real sharp sammy.

    You may end up needing a standard headset to get the angle best for you. If I recall you said it stands at 67.5 degrees at the moment with a .5 slackset.

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    Its 67 at the moment, so if I reverse it I should be at 68. I think that would be a better angle.

    I am planning to replace the rims on my San An with the Stans Arch, I have syncros rims on it at the moment so going to the arch on that bike would be a massive weight saving.

    I think the Alpine will be fine on the Zen because I won't be riding anything stupid on this bike. It will be my general trail bike so the wheels should fair well, I hope.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    I have Stans Alpines on the Stans Hubs. They were going super cheap locally, so I had to take a punt on them, Sure are light, fingers crossed they hold up as well as people have told me they do.
    How much does the wheelset weigh?

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    I bet those Alpines weigh in the low 1400 gram region, if not below 1400g.

    I took to messing with my Zen and purchased a rear fender for a Devinci Wilson just to see if it might squeeze into the swing arm and help keep debris from being flung toward the pivots and switch link. I cut, drilled, and used a heat lamp to shape the darn thing till it would cooperate.

    What do you think? is it out of place? I'm not sure a 2.3 or larger tire would clear it. As of now I am running a 2.1 Kenda slant six-
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-fenderonly.jpg  

    Taking a gamble on a Zen II-fenderback.jpg  

    Taking a gamble on a Zen II-fenderside.jpg  

    Taking a gamble on a Zen II-fenderndside.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    How much does the wheelset weigh?
    Had to just go and check the Stans Wheel Weight calculator. Turns out they are around 1450g for the set.

    Pretty happy with that and will definitely getting some Arch rims for my San An.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I bet those Alpines weigh in the low 1400 gram region, if not below 1400g.

    I took to messing with my Zen and purchased a rear fender for a Devinci Wilson just to see if it might squeeze into the swing arm and help keep debris from being flung toward the pivots and switch link. I cut, drilled, and used a heat lamp to shape the darn thing till it would cooperate.

    What do you think? is it out of place? I'm not sure a 2.3 or larger tire would clear it. As of now I am running a 2.1 Kenda slant six-
    The fender looks good. But, I would think the Seatpost would protect that area pretty well.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    Had to just go and check the Stans Wheel Weight calculator. Turns out they are around 1450g for the set.

    Pretty happy with that and will definitely getting some Arch rims for my San An.
    Nice! That would put my Nickel in the low 26 pound range. And if it ever gets below 100 degrees here, close to Los Angeles, I may even be able to get it dirty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    The fender looks good. But, I would think the Seatpost would protect that area pretty well.
    Well thanks for the feedback, I'll decide how I like it after I ride with it to see how it fares.

    I noticed some crud collecting around the eccentric and thought I might try a little something, we'll see if it make a difference. Take another look at that last photo, thats not a place I want to invite the ingress of dirt



    I was thinking of building up a second set of wheels with Crests, I want to hear back from you sammy about how well the Alpines hold up after you get a chance to put them through the paces.

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    I'm not too worried about debris or mud getting into the shock far that very reason. It all nicely tucked away forward of the post and should stay out of most of the muck.

    That said, I don't tend to ride once the trails get too muddy.

  74. #74
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    Hello U lucky guys!
    How are you doing with your new Zen's?
    I'm interrested of build me a new trail rocket but whan't to go 650b wheels.
    By your experience of the Zen II, do you think it's possible?
    // Lars the Swede

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    I'm really happy with my Zen II, but I doubt there is room for a 650B. I run a 2.1 Kenda slant six in the rear and have less than 1/2" (12mm) clearence between the chainstay crossmember and the top of the tire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I'm really happy with my Zen II, but I doubt there is room for a 650B. I run a 2.1 Kenda slant six in the rear and have less than 1/2" (12mm) clearence between the chainstay crossmember and the top of the tire.
    I have to agree, I am loving the Zen but wouldn't be confident trying to stick a 650B in there.

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    Couple questions regarding the Zen II

    Hi, congrats on buying and enjoying the Zen II. I'm looking to buy a frame at the moment.
    I'm 6'2", I think the correct size frame is the LG, or would it be the XL?
    Can anyone let me know what mount diameter I should get for the front derailleur? And it's bottom pull no low mount necessary, right?
    How have the frames held up for those riding a few months?
    Thanks in advance!

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by perek View Post
    Hi, congrats on buying and enjoying the Zen II. I'm looking to buy a frame at the moment.
    I'm 6'2", I think the correct size frame is the LG, or would it be the XL?
    Can anyone let me know what mount diameter I should get for the front derailleur? And it's bottom pull no low mount necessary, right?
    How have the frames held up for those riding a few months?
    Thanks in advance!
    You do realize that they are not made anymore, and there are no replacement parts or warranty available if you break something?

  79. #79
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    I'm 6'1" and I ride a medium but I would say a large would typically be a better fit for someone your height.

    I can't recall what diameter front derailer clamp off the top of my head, I'll get back to you on that if no one else remembers. Low mount bottom pull for sure.

    Mine has been flawless, I just pulled the swing arm and shock link apart last night to clean and inspect and really like how everything is fashioned. I'll post pics later.

    You really can't go wrong with the ZenII.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You do realize that they are not made anymore, and there are no replacement parts or warranty available if you break something?
    MC Shawn speaks the truth, thus if you want one you have to be willing to take a gamble.

    Quote Originally Posted by perek View Post
    Can anyone let me know what mount diameter I should get for the front derailleur? And it's bottom pull no low mount necessary, right?
    Low mount is necessary, the clamp or mount diameter is 34.9mm.

    Here's pics as promised, 8 cartridge bearings and 3 thru shafts with threaded caps for setting bearing preload. It looked a lot more involved then it actually turned out to be, really straight forward.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-img_20130107_223844_892.jpg  

    Taking a gamble on a Zen II-img_20130107_225606_616.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    You do realize that they are not made anymore, and there are no replacement parts or warranty available if you break something?
    Thats true, but I still haven't heard of any breaks. And depending on what brand you get, the warranty is as good as no warranty.

    With the MC's its just a matter of weighing up cost v's risk. cost won out for me and both the zen 2 and San An 2.0 have been sweet.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by perek View Post
    Hi, congrats on buying and enjoying the Zen II. I'm looking to buy a frame at the moment.
    I'm 6'2", I think the correct size frame is the LG, or would it be the XL?
    Can anyone let me know what mount diameter I should get for the front derailleur? And it's bottom pull no low mount necessary, right?
    How have the frames held up for those riding a few months?
    Thanks in advance!
    I'm 5'10" and the medium is spot on.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    Thats true, but I still haven't heard of any breaks. And depending on what brand you get, the warranty is as good as no warranty.

    With the MC's its just a matter of weighing up cost v's risk. cost won out for me and both the zen 2 and San An 2.0 have been sweet.
    Yeah, I know what you mean. That's why I looked at the SC Nickel at $600. It's a great bike, even at full price. SC customer service is top notch and they have promised to support the Nickel and Butcher for a long time. I'm just loving my Nickel, I just can't find anything wrong with it no matter how hard I try. I even put a 57mm stroke RS Monarch RT3 shock on it to give it 145mm of travel and I put a new 150mm RS Revelation Dual air on it, and saved some weight at the same time. I'm in at less then 27 pounds now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    I'm in at less then 27 pounds now.
    You suck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    You suck

    Haha!

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    I have a pile of parts waiting to go on my Zen in hopes of shedding a couple of pounds but I don't think under 27 is going to happen for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Yeah, I know what you mean. That's why I looked at the SC Nickel at $600. It's a great bike, even at full price. SC customer service is top notch and they have promised to support the Nickel and Butcher for a long time. I'm just loving my Nickel, I just can't find anything wrong with it no matter how hard I try. I even put a 57mm stroke RS Monarch RT3 shock on it to give it 145mm of travel and I put a new 150mm RS Revelation Dual air on it, and saved some weight at the same time. I'm in at less then 27 pounds now.
    My initial build on the Zen was 29.5 pounds.

    I've since replace the wheelset. While I haven't weighed it since the change, in theory it should now be down to around 28.2 pounds. Could shave some more off the bars/post/seat but won't bother. A lot more tuning would be required on the engine for any benefit. I'm guessing sub 27 would be possible, I just don't know for me that there will be enough of a benefit in chasing it.

    I do need to replace the wheels on the San An now though.

    After all this time on the bike, only fault I have with the bike is my decision to put the headset in at -0.5 degrees, With the longer fork I should have had it at +0.5 degrees. Will change it one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    My initial build on the Zen was 29.5 pounds.

    I've since replace the wheelset. While I haven't weighed it since the change, in theory it should now be down to around 28.2 pounds. Could shave some more off the bars/post/seat but won't bother. A lot more tuning would be required on the engine for any benefit. I'm guessing sub 27 would be possible, I just don't know for me that there will be enough of a benefit in chasing it.

    I do need to replace the wheels on the San An now though.

    After all this time on the bike, only fault I have with the bike is my decision to put the headset in at -0.5 degrees, With the longer fork I should have had it at +0.5 degrees. Will change it one day.
    I could drop another 400 grams with a light wheelset. But I like the wheels on it. I'm going to convert the rear wheel to 10mm and add a DT Swiss RWS through bolt. That will add a little weight, but not much. I'm really not a weight weenie. it's just that I got such a good deal on the frame, and I took my time finding new parts on deep discount, I just couldn't help but buy light but durable parts.

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    The reality is, any weight you add for a through bolt you won't notice, but you will notice the positive impact on stiffness.

    Don't get me wrongI love the Nickel frame, even at full RRP. I always had a soft spot for the Bullet, dated now, but still a great frame. I actually prefer the simpler Santa Cruz bikes.

    Having spent time on the new Zen though, I wouldn't have been disappointed if I paid full price for it, I just would't have had a San An and Zen.

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    Ya Sammy I'm still curious to hear your impressions on the difference in handling characteristics once you rotate that slackset. Did you ever measure the distance from the BB to the front axle the way it is set up now?

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    I haven't measured, but I will do it this weekend for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    The reality is, any weight you add for a through bolt you won't notice, but you will notice the positive impact on stiffness.

    Don't get me wrongI love the Nickel frame, even at full RRP. I always had a soft spot for the Bullet, dated now, but still a great frame. I actually prefer the simpler Santa Cruz bikes.

    Having spent time on the new Zen though, I wouldn't have been disappointed if I paid full price for it, I just would't have had a San An and Zen.
    I think it's very cool that you have one of each.

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    Since I had the swing arm, eccentric, and link apart I went ahead and had the pieces anodized. I was never that thrilled with the yellow colored link and the black eccentric in the black frame was less than complimentary to such a cool component.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-img_20130119_240030_289.jpg  


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    Look awesome. I would have to make the link red though. Which would leave me with a dilemma for the eccentric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog View Post
    Look awesome. I would have to make the link red though. Which would leave me with a dilemma for the eccentric.
    The black eccentric on the white frame looks pretty good, I didn't like it on the black frame because it was to hidden.

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    Did you end up going with a single, double or triple ring up front?

    I have been running a single 32, but am looking now at a double or triple set up. Not sure which way to go.

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    I run a double ring up front that is composed of a 25t rotor ring and a 38t standard round ring.

    I only have six cogs on the back wheel so I run the double up front to keep a decent gear spread, plus I ran a 1x9 an missed having the ability to quickly down shift, one click an I can climb.

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    I got bored and decided to have the link redone in a high polish. I sent it to STB performance coatings-
    STB performance coatings~Home

    He's a fellow MTBR member under the handle crazy8 and a great guy. I asked for the high polish and he also threw in a touch of ceramic coat in the recesses that really set it off. This man is an artist.

    My low res pics don't really do the piece justice, it really looks slick in person.

    Name:  IMG_20130628_153708_149.jpg
Views: 353
Size:  56.9 KBTaking a gamble on a Zen II-img_20130628_153805_490.jpgName:  IMG_20130630_130251_230.jpg
Views: 368
Size:  101.8 KBTaking a gamble on a Zen II-img_20130630_130432_467.jpg

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    That looks sweet.

    Not sure it would work on my all white frame, would probably need to be anodised red to stand out, but against the black, the polished look is great.

    Are you still liking the bike? I never got around to changing the headset around on mine. I need to.....just lazy.

    Still going through the eternal debate over 1 or 2 chainrings up front.

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    The truth is I haven't ridden the bike off road for a couple months. I've made a ton of changes to the bike and feel it is my dream trail machine, lots of carbon and lighter wheels. I haven't wieghed it since my last upgrade but it should tip the scale around 26.5lbs which I don't think is bad at all for a 8.5lb frame.

    I think a red anno link would look real good on a white frame. As far as gear train I'm extremely happy with 2X6 but I stand and mash. Lots of opinion on 1x9, 1x10, 1x11, 2x and 3x but it is too terrain and rider preference dependent to say for sure what would suit you best. I like having a front derailer for rapid downshifting and chain retention. If you decide on multiple chain rings I can't recommend Wickwerks enough!

    I have loved bikes my whole life and this is easily the best one I've ever built
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Taking a gamble on a Zen II-img_20130630_130358_644.jpg  

    Taking a gamble on a Zen II-img_20130630_130444_201.jpg  

    Taking a gamble on a Zen II-img_20130630_130601_652.jpg  


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