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  1. #1
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    San Andreas DNA - Broken Frame

    Hi,
    I bought a DNA frame... After one year (more or less) the frame was cracked in the swingarm support
    I have tried to solve the problem with the store that sold me the frame... Nothing!!! I have send e-mails directly to Mountain Cycle and the answer was the same... Nothing!!!
    I have posted a message in th MC satisfaction site and I still get the same answer... Nothing!!! (http://getsatisfaction.com/mountainc...s/broken_frame)

    So, here goes my alert tou you people.... Think twice before buying a MC bike!!!

  2. #2
    Maaaaan
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    Hey everyone!

    It's End-er in disguise.
    Communist Party Member Since 1917.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericmopar
    Hey everyone!

    It's End-er in disguise.
    Doubtful
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  4. #4
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    wondered how long it would be before he logged on with a new name!!
    Mountain Cycle collector,i have 8 of 'em now!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Doubtful
    indeed, en-der's frame is red, not black
    shoot me again, I ain't dead yet

    I do not have mountainbikes, I have Mountain Cycles

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cHoc Nr1
    indeed, en-der's frame is red, not black
    and this one is Portugal not Spain. ooppps!

    should have read the link properly,sorry.
    Mountain Cycle collector,i have 8 of 'em now!

  7. #7
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    Round Two.... DING! DING!

  8. #8
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    They should take care of it and make it go away. It's kind of telling that they don't answer emails about warranties. And it's even worse how people gang up here on anyone with trouble. Same thing happened on the Ibex forum just now. THey all didn't believe the guy and declared him a troll, then he posted pics and then they just spammed the hell out of the thread.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    They should take care of it and make it go away. It's kind of telling that they don't answer emails about warranties. And it's even worse how people gang up here on anyone with trouble. Same thing happened on the Ibex forum just now. THey all didn't believe the guy and declared him a troll, then he posted pics and then they just spammed the hell out of the thread.

    Nobody is ‘ganging up’. Giving the recent Ender debacle, I think people are just a bit skeptical… As long as there is DNA frame’s being used & abused out there, I can expect threads like this to keep popping up. If anyone reads “End-er's warranty adventure (was: MC WARRANTY claims)” they would see there is a slim chance that MC can do anything about replacing a DNA frame at this point. Also, to follow Enders lead and make a comment like “So, here goes my alert tou you people.... Think twice before buying a MC bike!!!” is just irresponsible and IMO will get you no favors… It makes me wonder why the lack of response from MC… Every e-mail I have sent was retuned in a reasonable time. Why is this case different? Maybe we should not be so quick to judge, as there is in many cases, always more to the story…
    Last edited by MC9.5; 04-30-2009 at 12:51 PM.

  10. #10
    Maaaaan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    They should take care of it and make it go away. It's kind of telling that they don't answer emails about warranties. And it's even worse how people gang up here on anyone with trouble. Same thing happened on the Ibex forum just now. THey all didn't believe the guy and declared him a troll, then he posted pics and then they just spammed the hell out of the thread.
    It's because there are people here that really did the warranty thing with MC, and know for a fact the service is excellent.

    To claim "that nothing was done" is hard to believe.
    MC doesn't make the San Ans anymore, so they offer the closest thing that seems to fill the void, but there are some out there, that will never be happy.
    They seem to believe, that a bike maker should retool just for a handful of warranty claims.
    That is not only very difficult for a small builder, but even the big companies offer different models as replacement frames, when a frame and/or bike is out of production.

    If I'm wrong and it really isn't Ender, then I apologize.
    I reserve the right to disbelieve that "nothing" has been done.

    I was suspicious that it's Ender, because of the style of writing.

    It's also another good reason to build a nice 6" travel trail bike.
    It would fill the warranty void that exists.
    Communist Party Member Since 1917.

  11. #11
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    As far as Mountain Cycle US can say I have never got an e-mail from this person (as it is probably an MCEU claim I'm sure Krien has spoken with this person). Ivo_goncalves did just join in April 2009 and only has this one post. I don't pass judgment on anyone until I have facts. My suggestion is to give this one a chance to blossom and see the fruit it produces. Thanks to the MC family for always looking out.

  12. #12
    VeloFello
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    We the people ...

    Just to make things PERFECTLY clear:

    We offer a 2year warranty.
    For it to be valid: you MUST have the proof of original ownership.

    If it is 2years + older OR you don't have a receipt: NO warranty.

    In these* cases: 50/50 is a VERY fair deal.
    (*or in any case where you want to swap out an older frame, any age/condition, but: only one time per customer)

    With regards Ivo, I have told him this several times now:
    A photo of 'a' receipt is not good enough: I need to be able to read it.
    Scan it, fax it or post it. He has the details.

    No readable valid receipt: no answer from us.
    I have some DNA spares, so we can help him, if first he just helps himself.

    Krien
    I'm a Mountain Cycle employee...
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeloFello
    but: only one time per customer)
    To bad, i had so much frame's lying around


    Quote Originally Posted by VeloFello
    With regards Ivo, I have told him this several times now:
    A photo of 'a' receipt is not good enough: I need to be able to read it.
    Scan it, fax it or post it. He has the details.

    No readable valid receipt: no answer from us.
    I have some DNA spares, so we can help him, if first he just helps himself.

    Krien
    It makes you wonder, is it so hard for people to read and act on it??
    shoot me again, I ain't dead yet

    I do not have mountainbikes, I have Mountain Cycles

  14. #14
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    Hi people...
    You can all relax because I´m not Ender!!!
    Everything that I have said is true. I have send e-mail´s to MC an did not get any answer!!!
    I can easily prove that... I can forward them. I have send to the following adresses:
    krien@mountaincycle.com and euhq@mountaincycle.com

    The only answer that I have it was posted here by Krien!!! And this answer show very well tha lack of professionalism of MC... As I told I did not get any answer from MC ever! How can Krien said:
    "With regards Ivo, I have told him this several times now:
    A photo of 'a' receipt is not good enough: I need to be able to read it.
    Scan it, fax it or post it. He has the details.

    No readable valid receipt: no answer from us.
    I have some DNA spares, so we can help him, if first he just helps himself."

    If you said that to me even once prove that (or anything else)... I did not send to you any photo of the receipt.
    And Krien, you can relax because I don´t find the receipt of the purchase (so you don´t have to bother because you don´t have to give any warranty)!!!! Or even better... don´t bother at all... I have repaired the frame and the piece of junk is working again!!!

  15. #15
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    [Ironic mode on]

    Didnt answer you????!!! unbelibeable!!!!

    [Ironic mode off]

    Waiting for rumble and nobody answer me.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericmopar
    Hey everyone!

    It's End-er in disguise.

  17. #17
    VeloFello
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    Ivo and Jose

    Please stop for one moment and be REASONABLE.

    We will not engage in your conversations if you do not treat us, and our other customers, with respect and fairness.

    Ivo - You have STILL NOT sent through any proof of ownership. If you want to claim a warranty then we MUST have a copy of the receipt.

    Jose - the Rumble was delivered to the address you gave us, and somebody in your office signed for it on your behalf. It's been delivered, and so from our side we have nothing more to do on this matter.

    To everybody - we're constantly working to make our Customer Service experience even better, as other customers attest 95% of the time we over-deliver on our promises.

    But let me show Ivo and Jose as two examples of how not to go about getting MC to help you: if you lie to us / change your story to suit your current complaints / don't provide the documentary evidence we require (by law) and make un-reasonable and un-justified complaints in order to 'cause trouble'... we'll from now on expect us to be much firmer with this type of customer.
    I'm a Mountain Cycle employee...
    Check out our new blog at MountainCycle.com
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeloFello

    Jose - the Rumble was delivered to the address you gave us, and somebody in your office signed for it on your behalf. It's been delivered, and so from our side we have nothing more to do on this matter.
    ..........
    But let me show Ivo and Jose as two examples of how not to go about getting MC to help you: if you lie to us / change your story to suit your current complaints / don't provide the documentary evidence we require (by law) and make un-reasonable and un-justified complaints in order to 'cause trouble'... we'll from now on expect us to be much firmer with this type of customer.
    I you want to accuse me for lie, please give us evidences as i did

    I never changed my story and i never lied.

  19. #19
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    Krien,

    Do you have a brain?
    Can you read?
    I´m increasingly conviced that you must suffer a mental disorder.
    You don´t give answers to the problems and now your calling me a liar... The only person that is continuosly changing the story to suit MC interest is you. Everybody can confirm this without getting out of this thread!!!
    This give to everybody a very good picture of the lack of profissionalism of MC after sales service.
    As I told you in my previous post, I don´t find the receipt of the purchase so you don´t have to bother because you don´t have to give any warranty (oh... Sorry... For a moment I forgot that you don´t have a brain and you can´t read)!!!
    As you have showed that you are not interested to have a client like me, I have a nice proposal to you:
    Buy my frame. I will sell tou you for half price that it have costed to me.
    That will solve the problem for the both of us. You will get rid of a client that you don´t like and I will get rid of the scrap that you produce. It´s a Win - Win solution.

  20. #20
    G..
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    Ba-Boooooowwwww.
    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]

  21. #21
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    It seems that krien isn´t interested in the good deal that I have proposed...

  22. #22
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    As usual MC guys don´t give any sign off being interested to know what is going on with their bikes... In the past days I have realized that I´m not the only one in this situation!!!
    You can verify this very easilly....
    MC guys claim that they have a good after sales service... I don´t know where they have this good service...
    My experience tell me that they have a bad after sales service... and that has nothing related with the fact off they being a small company!
    They don´t answer to complaints of the customers, they treat poorly their customers and they don´t want to know if they are putting in the market good products.
    Their main concern is if I have a proof of ownership... They didn´t want to know what was the problem and how it has appeared... They don´t want to study the problem and solve it in their production line... They are continuosly producing products with lack of quality!

    So, here goes my alert tou you people.... Think twice before buying a MC bike!!!

  23. #23
    G..
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    Hello Ivo,

    I assure you that Krien as well as the rest of us at Mountain Cycle ARE interested in resolving issues.

    What though will happen when you go out and openly abuse the people you are dealing with is find a sure fire way to be shunted to the bottom of the pile or ignored altogether. Reading though your above posts, I find your manner offensive to say the least. How on earth do expect any service if you behave like a child?

    Please do not cite Jose in your mails about receiving bad service. We went out of our way to appease him, far beyond was required. It seems though he has either been dishonest or there is a thief where he works, as everything that was promised to him was delivered. If he has not received any item from those deliveries, then that is something he needs to take up on his end, not expect us to resolve for him.

    In your case, have you sent through your proof of ownership yet? Not a photograph but a copy of or the actual paper? If as you are saying you don't have it, then that will complicate issues four fold. No company in the world will warranty you without proof of purchase, so please do not expect us to. In cases such as this, your are at the favour of those in the company to grace you with good will. Insulting them, as mentioned, will ensure you receive none. I'll also remind you it's not for you to make offers to us, but for us to process your claim in a fair and reasonable manner according to our terms and conditions. If indeed your claim is reasonable, then it will be processed accordingly but as you have seemingly fixed it:

    "And Krien, you can relax because I don´t find the receipt of the purchase (so you don´t have to bother because you don´t have to give any warranty)!!!! Or even better... don´t bother at all... I have repaired the frame and the piece of junk is working again!!!"

    there should be no issue, though it makes me wonder just what was wrong with it in the first place. I'll also remind you now that as you have, or have had a third party, tampered with the frame, any warranty is now truly null and void.

    For everyone out there, as Krien mentioned we are working hard on delivering solid customer service. We have established http://getsatisfaction.com/mountaincycle for doing just this, and we regard mtbr, Pink Bike etc. more as places to chat with customers about MC, not warranties etc. As with everything, it's the happy people you never hear from, just those few with a bone to pick for whatever reason.

    I check these forums everyday as well as the 'Get Satisfaction' and 'Pink Bike' forums as part of our customer service. I will try to answer any questions or issues that come up as well as direct you through to the right channels to resolve any issue, outstanding or present. Please note that we are a small company and are very busy, so when I say I am on it, I am. It just might take a little time to connect things.
    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]

  24. #24
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    This is my first post and have not checked this site for awhile, can't believe this issue hasn't been resolved.
    I do want to let everyone know about the great service I received on my DNA warranty. I broke the swingarm, scanned and e-mailed my pics and info, and received a new one in about a week. Broke the frame near the end of last year had a new frame in a few weeks. (I got lucky the new run of frames was done when I broke mine.) It is all documented on the getstaisfaction.com link above under DNA warranty.

    For arguments sake why don't the two pissed people scan and post their non-personal info here and we will see what happens. I scanned and sent what MC asked, had great service and find it hard to believe MC are treating you differently.

    Hope it works out for all.

  25. #25
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    +1 on showing legit info on here...hell, they've put everything else on here...how about some actual proof? (and that doesnt mean circling the word "colis" on a photo).
    Mountain Cycle Zen
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by G..
    ................................
    Please do not cite Jose in your mails about receiving bad service. We went out of our way to appease him, far beyond was required. It seems though he has either been dishonest or there is a thief where he works, as everything that was promised to him was delivered. If he has not received any item from those deliveries, then that is something he needs to take up on his end, not expect us to resolve for him................

    Waiting for rumble and nobody answer me.


    I proved that i just recived one package, i proved that Krien is a liar. MC knows that i only recived one package as you can read here:

    Dear Jose

    OK, thank you.

    With this I can track our courier and make a claim against the frame they have lost.

    I will authorise the release of a new frame to you this week.

    I will keep you informed to delivery

    Regards
    Krien


    So, YES, MC have the worst after sales sercice and MC staff are dishonest (where is the other frame wich Krien authorised to send me?) maybe my secretary stolen too and falsified the deliver docs too... and im sure She is in whistler riding two rumbles (she need two because the warranty problems).

    Im waiting for the Krien answers since I proved he is a liar. And of course, I waiting for the rumble frame.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJOY THE RIDE
    This is my first post and have not checked this site for awhile, can't believe this issue hasn't been resolved.
    I do want to let everyone know about the great service I received on my DNA warranty. I broke the swingarm, scanned and e-mailed my pics and info, and received a new one in about a week. Broke the frame near the end of last year had a new frame in a few weeks. (I got lucky the new run of frames was done when I broke mine.) It is all documented on the getstaisfaction.com link above under DNA warranty.

    For arguments sake why don't the two pissed people scan and post their non-personal info here and we will see what happens. I scanned and sent what MC asked, had great service and find it hard to believe MC are treating you differently.

    Hope it works out for all.

    Who is dishonest, you or MC staff because, MC said they never had new swingarms fos San Andreas DNA(they sent me one very used), and i supose your frame was L size because the sais only had L size (they sent me L size, i use M)

    Last edited by End-er; 06-10-2009 at 04:11 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrcxu
    +1 on showing legit info on here...hell, they've put everything else on here...how about some actual proof? (and that doesnt mean circling the word "colis" on a photo).
    This is the documentation i sent to Krien and He replied this:

    Dear Jose

    OK, thank you.

    With this I can track our courier and make a claim against the frame they have lost.

    I will authorise the release of a new frame to you this week.

    I will keep you informed to delivery

    Regards
    Krien



    As you and everybody can see, "colis" translated to English is "Packages" there was only one package wiht the ID 1404, and is the pictures package with only the San Andreas.


  29. #29
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    I'M AMERICAN, YOUR F'N RIGHT IT WAS A LARGE!! YOU STINKIN CREPE EATER.

    Just kiddin. My bike was large. I received a swingarm. The only gripe was I got a red replacement instead of the original anodized silver, but who cares it rides the same. I enjoyed talking to them, they seemed like just a bunch of MTBers.

    I don't want to argue, just wanted to relay my positive experience and see the facts when people slam reputations of a company that treated me very well. But- if it is just an issue of them saying they sent it, you saying they didn't- fill out a shipping insurance claim- you will get full value for the bike and can enjoy your 3 months vacations with any bike you chose. The liar can comit insurance fraud and deal with the consequences.

    Good luck!

  30. #30
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    I still fail to see how pictures of a box (internal and external) is enough to prove MC didn't send something. It doesn't even prove you didn't get it. Not saying you are lying, but a few photos like that don't actually tell us anything.

    You have MC staff saying it was delivered and signed for, and you producing photo's of a box. I'd be inclined to go with the signatures as proof.

    As for the initial issue with providing proof of purchase, surely providing a photo copy is not that much of a request.

    At the end of the day, if you want help, you need to help the people help you. If you don't the issues just become complicated.

    I work in a customer service oriented industry and it is extremely difficult to assist in helping and resolving issues for someone carrying on like this. You can only help a customer so much I can't claim to to know the full story here, but I don't see dissatisfied people dealing in concrete facts, all I see is dissatisfied people trying attack employees to support their claim.

    My dealings with MC staff, albeit very limited, have been very positive and I can't wait to receive my frame. If there is issues, which I hope there won't be, I'll take this thread as a reference of how not to deal with people.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog
    I still fail to see how pictures of a box (internal and external) is enough to prove MC didn't send something. It doesn't even prove you didn't get it. Not saying you are lying, but a few photos like that don't actually tell us anything.

    You have MC staff saying it was delivered and signed for, and you producing photo's of a box. I'd be inclined to go with the signatures as proof.
    I not only have shown you pics of the box, i have shown the delivery documentation too and some Krien mails where He said that was a porblem with the delivery and He had authorized a new rumble shipping.
    So, where is the first rumble, and where is the second rumble?? MC only can probe that they sent one box and i recive one box with de San Andreas, but not the rumble.

    How can i help to solve this if MC dont answer me and they are calling me a liar without proofs???

  32. #32
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    For the record, I also read Krien's posting where he said they had troubles with their carrier and stuff not making it to the destination.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by End-er
    I not only have shown you pics of the box, i have shown the delivery documentation too and some Krien mails where He said that was a porblem with the delivery and He had authorized a new rumble shipping.
    So, where is the first rumble, and where is the second rumble?? MC only can probe that they sent one box and i recive one box with de San Andreas, but not the rumble.

    How can i help to solve this if MC dont answer me and they are calling me a liar without proofs???
    But reading that email from Krien that you have referenced, it could also be seen that MC did track the courier after receiving the delivery documentation from yourself. Following which they were advised by the courier it was signed for.

    Did Krien assume when he sent that email that there was an issue with the courier and upon later investigation it turned out to be otherwise? I don't know, but its as easy to draw that conclusion as it is to draw a conclusion from some random photo's.

    I'm not taking sides here, I just don't think that the photo's really back up anything.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammydog
    But reading that email from Krien that you have referenced, it could also be seen that MC did track the courier after receiving the delivery documentation from yourself. Following which they were advised by the courier it was signed for.

    Did Krien assume when he sent that email that there was an issue with the courier and upon later investigation it turned out to be otherwise? I don't know, but its as easy to draw that conclusion as it is to draw a conclusion from some random photo's.

    I'm not taking sides here, I just don't think that the photo's really back up anything.



    If i have this delivery documentation is because i recived a delivery, so yes, someone signed for this delivery. And this is all the proofs that MC have, the signature from my secretary, the person who signed.

    The problem is that the Shipping was only one box, as you can see in the pictures, and as you can see in the documentation. (only one ID number for one box)
    And you can see, the deliver documentation without open attached to the box, the only one box.

    When i recived the San Andreas, in this moment i made photos, I posted here and i sent mails to MC, Nobody said me if the San Andreas and Rumble was coming together or not, Krien could confirm that and i can cofirm that by the mails. So I suposed that the rumble was coming from another place or in other shippment, the time passed and i was waiting for rumble, i wrote mail to Krien and He said me that They were having problems with the carrier company and ask me for the deliver documentation, of course, Krien has a proof of signed deliver, because i recived the San Andreas.

    I supose the carrier company said that they are not the guilty, they are not lost the rumble, and Krien thought im a liar, but who is the liar if Krien said that they are having problems with the carrier company, Krien said that carrier company lost the rumble, Krien said that he authorized new rumble shippment, and now i still waiting for rumble. And the last new i recived for Krien was the signed from my secretary when recived the San Andreas, and Krien saying me that I recived the rumble???!! WTF??!!! I just recived the San Andreas and my secretary signed the shippment of the San Andreas only one box!!! Even MC said that maybe my secretary stolen the rumble!!!!! hahahaha a pregnant woman who works near to me and who is the most good person... ridiculous

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    To End-er: The images that I see are not clear enough to read, assuming I could read anything but english anyway. The "email" could have been faked since it is justed pasted into a forum. How about someone supply the tracking number and company website that should show who signed what?

    From the post Jerk Chicken referenced (by VeloFello) "I know we've been getting some serious flack on this forum recently regarding "MC never delivered XYZ.." so let me just make one thing quickly clear (as I'm typing this, waiting on hold, again, with one of our shipping companies) once we ship goods - it's the transporter who is responsible for delivering them..."
    As far as I'm concerned the one doing the choosing/hiring of the shipping company is responsible for following up on delivery. Sounds like you need to find a better shipping company if they are so bad.

  37. #37
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    Mr G,

    It seem that you want to treat this issue like an adult. Excelent for me!
    I´ll tell the wholw history and my point of view. You can disagree with it, and other people can have other experience of working with MC and have a diferent point a view. But this is mine:
    My DNA frame has broken in mid September of 2008. I went to the store where I have bought it (Gaiabike) and they have said that they´ll work out a solution. After almost 2 month of: "I don´t have answers from MC, maybe tomorrow or next week..." and "MC is shipping spare parts... Maybe your frame is on this shippment" they finnaly have said that they couldn´t do more and gave me some e-mails adresses from MC.
    Then I have sent e-mail´s (as you can see in the picture) explaining what had happened. Do you know how much answers did I get from those e-mail´s? Zero, nothing...

    So, I was without bike and without any solution! I have decided to repair the frame even knowing that I´ll lose any chance of getting a warranty (nobody at MC was giving atention to the issue anyhow) and knowing that wasn´t a very good technical solution. But at least it put me riding again.

    After some time I found the MC site "Get satisfaction" and I have posted a photo reporting the problem: http://getsatisfaction.com/mountainc...s/broken_frame
    Do you know how much answers did I get? The same as previous: Zero, nothing!!!!!

    After a few days I have posted here a message... And I agree with you: I wasn´t very nice with MC. But if you were in my position would you be nice? What reasons do I have, until the momment, to be nice with you guys?

    My first MC answer cames with message #12 of this thread and with it cames the first lie. You can confirm this lie in the picture that I have sent an e-mail to the US MC.

    The second MC answer cames in message #13 of this thread. Krien for the first time explain to me what it was needed to present a valid claim. But along with it came more lies and the "usual cortesy":
    "With regards Ivo, I have told him this several times now:
    A photo of 'a' receipt is not good enough: I need to be able to read it.
    Scan it, fax it or post it. He has the details.

    No readable valid receipt: no answer from us.
    I have some DNA spares, so we can help him, if first he just helps himself.

    Krien"

    As I have stated in message #15 and in the previous messages nobody from MC said ANYTHING to me!! EVEN ONCE! And how can I have send a photo of a receipt if I don´t have a receipt??!!
    And saying: "No readable valid receipt: no answer from us." it´s the same saying: "No receipt: We don´t care about it..."! Let me put you some questions:
    1. Do you have any doubts that my frame is one made by MC?
    2. Do your frames have a serial number? If they have why do you need a receipt or anything else?

    The third answer from MC (#17 of this thread) begins saying that I should be reasonable... And finished calling me a liar and trouble maker!!! With such statement who is being un-reasonable? Who is behaving like a child? If MC insults me wich are the reasons that I have to be nice with you guys?
    So, I have answered in the same language in post #19. In post #22 I have posted my feelings about MC company. And isn´t only Ivo and Jose that have some story to tell:
    http://getsatisfaction.com/mountainc...waranty_policy
    http://getsatisfaction.com/mountainc..._contacting_mc
    http://getsatisfaction.com/mountainc...is_my_subframe
    I found 3 diferent examples in less than 5 minutes!!!!
    And for the end I will put you a final question: If you were in my position what would you have done different?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  38. #38
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    Ivo,

    Thank you for your indepth mail. I will look into this for you to find the answer. I can assure you, and everyone else, there has been no underhandedness on part of Mountain Cycle, so it pains me to see you angry about the way you have felt to be treated.

    There may be answers not passed on to you, there may a different perspective from Mountain Cycle itself. Regardless I will discuss and post what I learn, be it for or against your favour.

    I would like to remind everyone though that while the name Mountain Cycle remains the same, the company is completely new. As such the company has no direct responsibility for the frames produced by the past owners. This has been expressed numerous times. Mountain Cycle though believes very strongly in taking care of its patrons both past and present, so has, and is, making every effort to resolve issues with bikes from the past, of which Ivo yours is one. For the most part this has been working very well, as many happy customers will attest to.

    Like I said, I will look into this and post accordingly.

    As far and the being nice bit goes, the saying 'speak to others as you would like to be spoken to' comes to mind
    ---
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    "1. Do you have any doubts that my frame is one made by MC?
    2. Do your frames have a serial number? If they have why do you need a receipt or anything else?"

    I buy most of my frames from ebay or second hand and I don't expect them to be covered by warranty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Poor
    "1. Do you have any doubts that my frame is one made by MC?
    2. Do your frames have a serial number? If they have why do you need a receipt or anything else?"

    I buy most of my frames from ebay or second hand and I don't expect them to be covered by warranty.

    Obviously some people think they deserve special treatment…

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    I was looking for guys like you both (Bike Poor and MC9.5)!!!
    I´ve got an very interest deal... I´ve got a frame to sell...
    What do you say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    I was looking for guys like you both (Bike Poor and MC9.5)!!!
    I´ve got an very interest deal... I´ve got a frame to sell...
    What do you say?

    I would gladly take the main frame off your hands for free. Unfortunately the shipping cost from Portugal would probably not be worth the effort…
    Most bike company’s warranty only pertains to original owners. There may be some out there that cover 2nd hand purchases, but I am not aware of any…
    From MC’s site:
    Brief Warranty Conditions:
    • Mountain Cycle warranties it’s frames for the Original user against manufacturing defects.
    • Accident damage does not count as a defect…
    • Components (including shocks) fitted to the bike are the responsibility of the brand who made them.
    • Frames must have been used for their “intended use” - so no DHing on a XC bike.
    • You must be the original owner, and it should have been purchased via one of our authorised retailers.
    • You must have regularly serviced their bike and have kept it in good mechanical condition.
    • You must provide the purchase invoice + photographic evidence to support your claim.

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    For free?!! LOL! Now I understand why you don´t bother with warranties...
    Just to make things perfectly clear for you:
    "Brief Warranty Conditions:
    • Mountain Cycle warranties it’s frames for the Original user against manufacturing defects. – I´m the original user and yes is a manufacturing defect… And it´s very easy to prove!!
    Accident damage does not count as a defect… - It isn´t a damage defect
    Components (including shocks) fitted to the bike are the responsibility of the brand who made them. – there are no problems with the shock´s
    Frames must have been used for their “intended use” - so no DHing on a XC bike. – The bike wasn´t “abused”. It´s my first frame that brakes! Even the ones that Ihave bought in the supermarket Iwas able to brake!!!
    You must be the original owner, and it should have been purchased via one of our authorised retailers. – I am the original owner and I hve bought it in an authorised retailer (Gaiabike - http://www.gaiabike.com/Inicio.html)
    You must have regularly serviced their bike and have kept it in good mechanical condition. – The maintenance of the bike is up to date…
    You must provide the purchase invoice + photographic evidence to support your claim. – I don´t have the purchase invoice (I have lost it).

    MC can arrange a lot more warranty conditions but the fact is that I´m the original buyer of the frame, the frame was broken due to a lack of quality and they did not gave an answer in usefull time...
    I think that a frame that crack´s like mine is a critical damage. And the treatment that has been done to the matter shows very well why the DNA project went to the drain!!!

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    You must provide the purchase invoice + photographic evidence to support your claim. – I don´t have the purchase invoice (I have lost it).
    So then why should Mountain Cycle grand you a warranty, solely because of the fact that you're frame broke?


    Then i could do that with my mobile to; "hey, my mobile broke, it fell from 4 inch, and it shattered in pieces, i don't have the purchase invoice anymore, give me a new one......."
    And with my car, if i have a flat tyre, just call the manufacturer, the'll fix it....

    They will say, where is you're proof of ownership on paper, and in the case of the car manufacturer, go to you're dealer where you've bought the car.
    Mountain Cycle is doing the same thing with warranty's as other company's, you have to provide a proof of first ownership on paper, are they doing it wrong??


    And besides that, now that you have fixed you're bike yourself, you have thrown you're warranty that you still might had, if you could find the papers, out of the window. If it brakes again, even if it brakes somewhere else, it's totaly you're show.
    shoot me again, I ain't dead yet

    I do not have mountainbikes, I have Mountain Cycles

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    your =/= you're

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    Ivo and All,

    I have said that I am looking into this and I am. There is little point Ivo in continuing your complaining, in answer to a post or otherwise. If, when I post the outcome of my research into this matter, you do not like the answer, what you do from there will be up to you but until then, how about just sitting tight?
    ---
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    Ivo, I'd assume that it might be possible for you to contact Gaiabike and get them to generate a copy of your purchase receipt.

    They ought to have you on file if it was an online purchase.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Poor
    To End-er: The images that I see are not clear enough to read, assuming I could read anything but english anyway. The "email" could have been faked since it is justed pasted into a forum. How about someone supply the tracking number and company website that should show who signed what?
    not clear enough to read?????





    Krien or MC staff can write here if there are any false document.
    But if anyone wants images more clearly or emails capture (not copy/paste), no problem.

    From the post Jerk Chicken referenced (by VeloFello) "I know we've been getting some serious flack on this forum recently regarding "MC never delivered XYZ.." so let me just make one thing quickly clear (as I'm typing this, waiting on hold, again, with one of our shipping companies) once we ship goods - it's the transporter who is responsible for delivering them..."
    As far as I'm concerned the one doing the choosing/hiring of the shipping company is responsible for following up on delivery. Sounds like you need to find a better shipping company if they are so bad.
    MC said sometimes that they are having problems with their delivery company, in fact Krien admited that the delivery company lost my rumble.
    Last edited by End-er; 06-16-2009 at 03:33 AM.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    You must provide the purchase invoice + photographic evidence to support your claim. I don´t have the purchase invoice (I have lost it).
    No proof of purchase.
    End of story.

    I'm going to repost this as needed.
    Others feel free to do the same.

    Later, Eric.
    Communist Party Member Since 1917.

  50. #50
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    Recently I have bought a car. A few weeks ago I received a letter telling me that I have to go to the dealer to make an upgrade to the software that manages the engine. The software that was installed at the factory was not correct. I went to the dealers and guess what?
    NOBODY ASKED ME FOR A PROOF OF PURCHASE!!!
    For what I see where this must be very strange!!!
    Each company have his policies regarding to warranty conditions and after sales service.
    MC gives a 2 year warranty for the frames and you well now that other manufacturers give a lifetime warranty!!!
    If you asked me if a proof of ownership is essencial? I will tell you that it´s important but not imperative. If I were working in the after sales service of MC I was more interested in solving the customer problem and trying to find the reasons that led to the problem to make the necessary adjustments in my production sistem to avoid further problems.
    Now let me be perfectly clear with all you guys:
    I´m not asking for a warranty, I´m telling you all the experience that I have with MC.
    I don´t fullfil the warranty conditions and beside that I have welded the frame... And why do I have welded the frame?
    Because I do not have a single word from MC... The first time that I have a word from MC was in this thread at 30-04-09 and the frame was broken in September 2008!!!
    If MC wants to propose some kind of solution that´s fine by me and I will report to all of you guys!
    But until now I don´t have nice things to say about this case and when I have time and patiente I will show you guys why the frame was broke.

  51. #51
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    Dear Ivo,

    It has been stated a number of times to you that without a proof of purchase, your claim could not be processed. This is part of the warranty stipulation. Like many warranties from many companies in many countries, we have stipulations and proof of purchase is one. If you do not have it, then the shop or the distributor you purchased your frame from should be able to provide you, or us, a record that you purchased this frame new.

    Ivo, there is no intention of 'stiffing' you here, indeed we try our best to solve each case as it comes in. I am not sure what, if any, correspondence you may have had back in 2008, if indeed this is when you first contacted us but the only records I have right now are based on the posts you have made here and on the Get Satisfaction forums.

    I understand that a reply should have come back to you right away, no matter what the outcome, and for that we apologise. I have said that I am looking into your particular case and I am, though it may take a little longer as people are on planes heading to different countries to undertake the day to day business.

    But right now all I can see is that:

    1. You have an old frame, from the previous owners of the Mountain Cycle name that has broken due to a manner yet to be determined.

    2. You have failed to understand that we, as the NEW owners of this name do not have ANY obligation to warranty any of the products from the previous owners, THOUGH we try our best to come to a reasonable deal with most, as many will attest to.

    3. You can not, either yourself, or through a shop or distributor, it seems provide us with ANY sort of record that you are the original owner of this frame.

    4. You have repaired the frame yourself, totally voiding whatever warranty claim (see point 2) you might (or might not) have had.

    5. You have been rude, offensive and aggressive towards staff of Mountain Cycle in an open and public manner.

    6. I have told you publicly that I am looking into your issue and I am, you need to accept this. You also need to accept that you have not met ANY of the warranty criteria nor accepted or acknowledged point 2 above.

    6. Instead of waiting for an answer, you have gone an repaired the frame which has raised my concerns about the validity of your claim in the first place.

    I will reply here and on Get Satisfaction when I have an answer for you.
    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by G..
    ........2. You have failed to understand that we, as the NEW owners of this name do not have ANY obligation to warranty any of the products from the previous owners, THOUGH we try our best to come to a reasonable deal with most, as many will attest to............
    In Europe that is not legal. Any company wich wants close or change the oners has to keep the responsability of keep the warranty and keep spares.

    Its not the same there? Seems very fun, a company just have to rotate between two owners to invalidate all warranties.

    A warranty is a contract between a person and a company and like all contracts, cant be broken unilaterally.

    MC actual owners, bought a company, and that includes responsabilities with their clients, if you dont like dont buy a company, just create one.


    And... where is my answer on getsatisfaction?? Im waiting for my rumble. I supose MC have not answers for me, and have not shame.

  53. #53
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    ---
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    Quote Originally Posted by G..
    Thanks, but we are interenting in a way to contact MC staff for get answers, not in a site to write for nothing.

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    Mr G,

    Let me be once again perfectly clear. Like I said in previous post:
    “I´m not asking for a warranty. I´m telling you all the experience that I have with MC.
    I don´t fulfill the warranty conditions and beside that I have welded the frame... And why do I have welded the frame?
    Because I do not have a single word from MC... The first time that I have a word from MC was in this thread at 30-04-09 and the frame was broken in September 2008!!!
    If MC wants to propose some kind of solution that´s fine by me and I will report to all of you guys!
    But until now I don´t have nice things to say about this case and when I have time and patient I will show you guys why the frame was broke.”

    Let me now answer to something’s that you have left in the air in your last post:

    1. I am not going to spent time and money asking for a copy of the receipt. If I have a copy of the receipt you will say that I have welded the frame… So the final result is the same!!! No warranty. And you are perfectly correct in this point…
    2. You don´t need to look for correspondence… I can easily forward to you the e-mail´s that I have sent to MC… and you don´t need to look for answers from MC because there are none…
    3. I don´t understand how a company that manufactures frames have all the staff on planes taking care of the “day to day business”!!!
    4. It´s very easy to explain the reason why the frame cracked. It was cracked due to a fatigue failure due to an undercut weld. This means that you have putted in the market frames with weld defects that origin a premature failure of the structure of the frame.
    5. When you buy a company you buy the bad stuff along with the good stuff… So when you bought MC from the previous owners you bought all of the old problems. You can´t pick in a rubber and erase the things that you want…
    6. Yes… I have been rude with MC staff… After they call me a liar and a fake person!!! I think that I am a customer and I deserve respect above all. And let me tell you something… I´m going to work every day to buy my stuff and support my family. I do not admit that someone that even don´t know me tell lies about me and question my integrity.
    7. If I have waited for an answer and didn´t repaired the frame, I was without bike… And to be honest I am anxious to receive the answer that you have promised to give.


    Hope to ear news from you soon,

    Ivo

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    They only took 2 years to solve your problem!!! Fantastic... They really do have a fantastic customer service!!! (sorry for the irony)!!!
    I´m glad that your quest has come to an end... But let me alert you for a detail that I can see in your new frame. As you can see in the picture below it has welding defects... And If I could detect a visual defect only on a random photo I can imagine what kind of the defects are present in MC frames.
    As I told in my last post I don´t understand how staff are stuked in planes taking care of "day to day business" when the frames are on the ground!!!
    This shows once again what type of quality is MC now using in the production of their frames...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  58. #58
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    All of my frames from other manufacturers with ISCG mounts have a similar hole. I am guessing that the weld is fine, it is a gap between the ISCG plate and the BB shell.

    Now, I am not looking at the bike in the flesh obviously so I could be wrong in this case. This is just my assessment from this photo and my bikes with ISCG mounts (they are not MC frames).

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    They only took 2 years to solve your problem!!! Fantastic... They really do have a fantastic customer service!!! (sorry for the irony)!!!
    I´m glad that your quest has come to an end... But let me alert you for a detail that I can see in your new frame. As you can see in the picture below it has welding defects... And If I could detect a visual defect only on a random photo I can imagine what kind of the defects are present in MC frames.
    As I told in my last post I don´t understand how staff are stuked in planes taking care of "day to day business" when the frames are on the ground!!!
    This shows once again what type of quality is MC now using in the production of their frames...

    You are right!! I will check all the weldings...

    I hope there is only this defect

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    They only took 2 years to solve your problem!!! Fantastic... They really do have a fantastic customer service!!! (sorry for the irony)!!!
    I´m glad that your quest has come to an end... But let me alert you for a detail that I can see in your new frame. As you can see in the picture below it has welding defects... And If I could detect a visual defect only on a random photo I can imagine what kind of the defects are present in MC frames.
    As I told in my last post I don´t understand how staff are stuked in planes taking care of "day to day business" when the frames are on the ground!!!
    This shows once again what type of quality is MC now using in the production of their frames...
    Hey Ivo,
    Are you for real???
    If that hole showed up on the head tube weld, I would say you had a cause for concern. BUT we are looking at a chain guide bracket!!! That 'hole' will never cause a problem... Just because your pissed off at your situation, does not make it right to go and make uneducated comments on ‘supposed’ welding deficiency’s and general statements about quality.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MC9.5
    Hey Ivo,
    Are you for real???
    If that hole showed up on the head tube weld, I would say you had a cause for concern. BUT we are looking at a chain guide bracket!!! That 'hole' will never cause a problem... Just because your pissed off at your situation, does not make it right to go and make uneducated comments on ‘supposed’ welding deficiency’s and general statements about quality.
    Like I said in my other post, I think most of the frames (not MC frames) I have had with an ISCG mount have has similar welds. The hole isn't a defect with the weld, its the gap between the ISCG plate and the BB. In part it is because the weld isn't a continuous weld around the entire shell. Why would you weld the entire shell, its not like the strength is needed there.

    Like you say, if you saw the same thing at the head tube, panic, but at the ISCG mounts. Its not an issue.

    The again, with Ivo's rants, I would not expect a balanced comment.

  62. #62
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    This is not a defect of ANY form. It's the result of the end of pass through the TIG weld process. These 'dimples' or 'holes' are quite common in areas such as this where a fair bit of solder rod is used and signify the start/end of a weld - usually caused in areas that are quite tight. They by no means cause any sort of structural weakness, rather just signifying that a good amount of rod has been used to ensure the area is substantially enforced.

    Thank you Ivo for giving me the opportunity to explain part of the TIG welding process to you and our followers, a process the majority of riders know very little about.
    Last edited by G..; 07-09-2009 at 04:08 PM.
    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]

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    ivo youve got to be kidding me...you are an over-opinionated under-educated idiot. No disrespect.
    Mountain Cycle Zen
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    speaking as an experienced alloy and stainless tig welder - from the image I would say that is not a defect, just the end of the weld.

    Its a lovely frame, I hope you enjoy it?

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    It seems to me that I am hurting the feelings to a lot of you guys…. But has people say in my land “The worst blind men is the one that does not want to see!”
    I don´t know what facts are you guys based to say that I am under-educated… FYI the under-educated has three different graduations! I am a mechanical engineer, quality engineer and welding engineer recognized by EWF and IIW. This is the same to say that my welding graduation is recognized all over the world! I have almost 200 welders working on my supervision and I have accomplished to certify the company where I work according to DIN 18800-7. So I have background to say that I know a thing or two about welding…
    And Mr. G… Everything that you said in your last post is completely WRONG!!! You say that is not a defect based on what standard??? If you don´t have a standard check ISO 10042:2005.
    This is not a result of using TIG process or any other welding process… This is result of lack of heat to promote a good connection between materials.
    And yes, it causes structural weakness and does not mean that the weld is substantial enforced… If you don´t believe you just have to read some books about fatigue in welded structures.
    You have the opportunity not to explain poorly the TIG welding process but to explain how do you control the quality of your production… You could say what kind of non destructive testing and destructive testing that you make to your weldings, and the amount of each… you could say how do you maintain you welding procedures up to dated and the qualification of your welders… you could say how do you control your raw materials… and many other things…
    If you guys have doubts you can check here good welds of the same elements:
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/723728/
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1902986/
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/2945458/
    http://www.santacruzmtb.com/bullit/d...mages/iscg.jpg
    And you can see here an example that what could happen:
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1129000/

  66. #66
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    I see Ivo that you have not responded to this request:

    http://getsatisfaction.com/mountainc...s/broken_frame
    ---
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    Quote Originally Posted by G..
    I see Ivo that you have not responded to this request:

    http://getsatisfaction.com/mountainc...s/broken_frame
    And what about you reponding to this:???

    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    It seems to me that I am hurting the feelings to a lot of you guys…. But has people say in my land “The worst blind men is the one that does not want to see!”
    I don´t know what facts are you guys based to say that I am under-educated… FYI the under-educated has three different graduations! I am a mechanical engineer, quality engineer and welding engineer recognized by EWF and IIW. This is the same to say that my welding graduation is recognized all over the world! I have almost 200 welders working on my supervision and I have accomplished to certify the company where I work according to DIN 18800-7. So I have background to say that I know a thing or two about welding…
    And Mr. G… Everything that you said in your last post is completely WRONG!!! You say that is not a defect based on what standard??? If you don´t have a standard check ISO 10042:2005.
    This is not a result of using TIG process or any other welding process… This is result of lack of heat to promote a good connection between materials.
    And yes, it causes structural weakness and does not mean that the weld is substantial enforced… If you don´t believe you just have to read some books about fatigue in welded structures.
    You have the opportunity not to explain poorly the TIG welding process but to explain how do you control the quality of your production… You could say what kind of non destructive testing and destructive testing that you make to your weldings, and the amount of each… you could say how do you maintain you welding procedures up to dated and the qualification of your welders… you could say how do you control your raw materials… and many other things…
    If you guys have doubts you can check here good welds of the same elements:
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/723728/
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1902986/
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/2945458/
    http://www.santacruzmtb.com/bullit/d...mages/iscg.jpg
    And you can see here an example that what could happen:
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1129000/

    I will try to make some pics of other welding areas on my new rumble.

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    Mr. G,

    I have answered right now. Thank you to calling my attention to this...

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    can we not ban some of these guys that constantly berade this forum. everytime i come in here the top threads are from some guy thats from god knows what country going on about this or that. at some point, they just need to be ignored!

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpk1080
    can we not ban some of these guys that constantly berade this forum. everytime i come in here the top threads are from some guy thats from god knows what country going on about this or that. at some point, they just need to be ignored!
    What does their country of origin have to do with anything?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    It seems to me that I am hurting the feelings to a lot of you guys…. But has people say in my land “The worst blind men is the one that does not want to see!”
    I don´t know what facts are you guys based to say that I am under-educated… FYI the under-educated has three different graduations! I am a mechanical engineer, quality engineer and welding engineer recognized by EWF and IIW. This is the same to say that my welding graduation is recognized all over the world! I have almost 200 welders working on my supervision and I have accomplished to certify the company where I work according to DIN 18800-7. So I have background to say that I know a thing or two about welding…
    And Mr. G… Everything that you said in your last post is completely WRONG!!! You say that is not a defect based on what standard??? If you don´t have a standard check ISO 10042:2005.
    This is not a result of using TIG process or any other welding process… This is result of lack of heat to promote a good connection between materials.
    And yes, it causes structural weakness and does not mean that the weld is substantial enforced… If you don´t believe you just have to read some books about fatigue in welded structures.
    You have the opportunity not to explain poorly the TIG welding process but to explain how do you control the quality of your production… You could say what kind of non destructive testing and destructive testing that you make to your weldings, and the amount of each… you could say how do you maintain you welding procedures up to dated and the qualification of your welders… you could say how do you control your raw materials… and many other things…
    If you guys have doubts you can check here good welds of the same elements:
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/723728/
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1902986/
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/2945458/
    http://www.santacruzmtb.com/bullit/d...mages/iscg.jpg
    And you can see here an example that what could happen:
    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1129000/
    Ivo,

    Thank you for your Resume. I stand corrected in regards to your education and for this I am truly sorry. Unfortunately, your extensive schooling has not helped you from appearing like a whining 12yr. old in all of your previous posts on this matter. IMO, our feelings have not been hurt, nor is anyone trying to turn a blind eye to the issues MC has had to deal with as of late. The problem is the constant unprofessional responses from you & Ender, who’s only purpose it appears, is to give MC a black eye. If you got something constructive to say, let’s hear it; just try taking the ‘High’ road and not conduct yourself in a childish manner. I can guarantee your thoughts would be better received.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MC9.5
    Ivo,

    Thank you for your Resume. I stand corrected in regards to your education and for this I am truly sorry. Unfortunately, your extensive schooling has not helped you from appearing like a whining 12yr. old in all of your previous posts on this matter. IMO, our feelings have not been hurt, nor is anyone trying to turn a blind eye to the issues MC has had to deal with as of late. The problem is the constant unprofessional responses from you & Ender, who’s only purpose it appears, is to give MC a black eye. If you got something constructive to say, let’s hear it; just try taking the ‘High’ road and not conduct yourself in a childish manner. I can guarantee your thoughts would be better received.
    I am not whining for anything and I am not interested into put black eyes to anybody … I am only telling my experience with MC and all the facts that I have told are truth. It seems to me that you don´t want to see that the unprofessional answers are coming from other side… I will not spend my Latin with guys like you any more… If you want to discuss a theme please present real facts and don´t throw words into the air!!!
    For all you people I inform you that MC has established contact with me and seems that they are interested to put an end to this story. Good or bad I hope that I can tell you people how the things were managed.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpk1080
    can we not ban some of these guys that constantly berade this forum. everytime i come in here the top threads are from some guy thats from god knows what country going on about this or that. at some point, they just need to be ignored!
    And I am the unbalanced guy?!!!

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    Ivo, from post 65 in this thread, you may not have proved that you're unbalanced, but the photo of the Santa Cruz frame you posted has from all appearance a good 50% of the ISCG mount plate not welded to the frame at all, where the MC Rumble frame has a bucketload more coverage around the perimeter of the BB housing.

    I accept the fact that you had an issue with MC, but frankly, now you're just being an annoying little turkey who picks at anything to do with MC that you can, even when you're wrong. (Like, for instance why someone who deals with customer feedback might be on a plane. Gee, I dunno, maybe he needed to get somewhere but still had modern technology available which enables him to keep in touch with the web while at an airport.)

    As for the photo you posted giving "proof" of what could happen to a chainguide mount plate if it wasn't welded correctly, exactly how hard and how often would you propose someone ought to slam the absolute snot out of their inner bashguard in order to rip it clean off the BB? It's a pinkbike shot, after all...

    Bashguards are designed to be a feature that provides some degree of protection to the chainrings, but I think there are very few manufacturers who would be of the opinion that it's supposed to be a regular contact surface (the obvious exception being Trials bikes). Regular slamming or extreme impacts sufficient to do the damage you're showing are not JRA due to a manufacturing fault and claiming such just makes you look stupid, no matter how many qualifications you have.

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    I would like to remenber to everyone that MC called me liar and burglar.
    I would like to remenber to everyone that i demostrated MC was worng.
    I would like to remenber to everyone that i waiting for apologies from MC.

    So, if anyone wants to talk about bad education or bad professional actitude. talk aboute MC staff.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by End-er
    I would like to remenber to everyone that MC called me liar and burglar.
    I would like to remenber to everyone that i demostrated MC was worng.
    I would like to remenber to everyone that i waiting for apologies from MC.

    So, if anyone wants to talk about bad education or bad professional actitude. talk aboute MC staff.

    Noted... Let's move on...

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MC9.5
    Noted... Let's move on...
    good idea,time for an end to the name calling and *****y comments?

    lets all go ride our bikes instead!
    Mountain Cycle collector,i have 8 of 'em now!

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fullrange Drew
    Ivo, from post 65 in this thread, you may not have proved that you're unbalanced, but the photo of the Santa Cruz frame you posted has from all appearance a good 50% of the ISCG mount plate not welded to the frame at all, where the MC Rumble frame has a bucketload more coverage around the perimeter of the BB housing.

    I accept the fact that you had an issue with MC, but frankly, now you're just being an annoying little turkey who picks at anything to do with MC that you can, even when you're wrong. (Like, for instance why someone who deals with customer feedback might be on a plane. Gee, I dunno, maybe he needed to get somewhere but still had modern technology available which enables him to keep in touch with the web while at an airport.)

    As for the photo you posted giving "proof" of what could happen to a chainguide mount plate if it wasn't welded correctly, exactly how hard and how often would you propose someone ought to slam the absolute snot out of their inner bashguard in order to rip it clean off the BB? It's a pinkbike shot, after all...

    Bashguards are designed to be a feature that provides some degree of protection to the chainrings, but I think there are very few manufacturers who would be of the opinion that it's supposed to be a regular contact surface (the obvious exception being Trials bikes). Regular slamming or extreme impacts sufficient to do the damage you're showing are not JRA due to a manufacturing fault and claiming such just makes you look stupid, no matter how many qualifications you have.
    If I am an annoying little turkey you are for shore one big donkey… No disrespect for the donkey!!!
    It´s not a question of the amount of welding… The discontinuous welding seam is perfectly good for this situation and this kind of welding solution is used very often. What is bad is the imperfection on the beginning of the weld (the hole that you see in the picture).
    And also it´s not a question of how hard you hammer this part to have a collapse. Go study a little of fatigue of metallic materials and you quickly see who is looking stupid here… You can see good examples of fatigue failures here (including bike components):
    http://materials.open.ac.uk/mem/mem_ccf.htm
    What I meant when I say that I don´t understand how can all the staff be stuked in planes taking care of day to day business is that IN MY OPINION there should be responsible people near the production of the frames improving the quality every day to avoid mistakes like this and mistakes like there are in my frame.
    And FYI I still have an issue with MC. There is no final answer! But at least MC has made an official contact. A very small point at his favor until the moment…

  79. #79
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    I have to ride it gently...
    My frame has a weld repared...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    It´s not a question of the amount of welding… The discontinuous welding seam is perfectly good for this situation and this kind of welding solution is used very often. What is bad is the imperfection on the beginning of the weld (the hole that you see in the picture).
    And also it´s not a question of how hard you hammer this part to have a collapse. Go study a little of fatigue of metallic materials and you quickly see who is looking stupid here… You can see good examples of fatigue failures here (including bike components):
    http://materials.open.ac.uk/mem/mem_ccf.htm
    What I meant when I say that I don´t understand how can all the staff be stuked in planes taking care of day to day business is that IN MY OPINION there should be responsible people near the production of the frames improving the quality every day to avoid mistakes like this and mistakes like there are in my frame.
    And FYI I still have an issue with MC. There is no final answer! But at least MC has made an official contact. A very small point at his favor until the moment…
    Ivo, on the basis of a 1mm diamater hole you have sledged the quality of an entire weld bead when you would know full well that short of cutting a sample open and etching it to bring out the grain structure there is no way to tell how the penetration is for the remainder of the bead.

    You have no idea who's on deck in the production section or what they're doing, no idea how often G is on deck, no idea who has been advised of your comments, no idea if you're actually right regarding a potential weakness in the frame, no idea of the return rates etc etc etc. Design staff and customer feedback staff do not need to be on deck at the manufacturing floor 100% of the time. If they were, they couldn't design, or answer customer feedback in a timely manner.

    From memory, your frame wasn't even made by the current manufacturing team, it was made by staff employed by a company of the same name. Without access to the staff lists for both, we're back to you having no idea again...

    And yes, it is a question of what level of abuse a part is designed to take that determines how it is manufactured. Tube wall thicknesses and lack of gusseting that are fine on a bike destined for smooth trail XC with a light rider are not appropriate for a hefty freeride bike.

    Feel free to have the last word,I stopped taking you seriously a while ago.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fullrange Drew
    Ivo, on the basis of a 1mm diamater hole you have sledged the quality of an entire weld bead when you would know full well that short of cutting a sample open and etching it to bring out the grain structure there is no way to tell how the penetration is for the remainder of the bead.

    You have no idea who's on deck in the production section or what they're doing, no idea how often G is on deck, no idea who has been advised of your comments, no idea if you're actually right regarding a potential weakness in the frame, no idea of the return rates etc etc etc. Design staff and customer feedback staff do not need to be on deck at the manufacturing floor 100% of the time. If they were, they couldn't design, or answer customer feedback in a timely manner.

    From memory, your frame wasn't even made by the current manufacturing team, it was made by staff employed by a company of the same name. Without access to the staff lists for both, we're back to you having no idea again...

    And yes, it is a question of what level of abuse a part is designed to take that determines how it is manufactured. Tube wall thicknesses and lack of gusseting that are fine on a bike destined for smooth trail XC with a light rider are not appropriate for a hefty freeride bike.

    Feel free to have the last word,I stopped taking you seriously a while ago.
    Hi Drew… You are completely wrong about many things.
    First of all I have nothing against Mr. G. In fact, I must thank him because he has promised that he would make something about my situation and in fact he did and MC has established an official contact with me. Nevertheless he his wrong about his explanation about the hole at the welding. And you are wrong also... That kind of imperfection is not accepted by any rule of construction of dynamic structures. If you want I can send to you an international standard where you can easily check this… And you are wrong again when you say that the only manner is to cut the weld to see if it´s good or not. There are many NDT that you can perform to verify the sanity of a welded joint.
    You are mixing also different things: when you are making the design of any structure (like a frame for a bike) of course that the final use of the structure will tell you a lot about what kind of loads you must consider (as you gave the example of XC or Freride bike). In that basis the designer will select the material, shape, thickness, etc… of the pipes to the frame. Along with this he will establish tolerances and specifications for the production. As you know what the designer put on paper is the theoretical model and at the production things goes a little bit different. Production has to fulfill specifications and tolerances defined by the design department to ensure that the calculations made of the parts are correct.
    So, if a weld has imperfections like the hole that we can see it´s not a question of how hard you push… The weld does not support the loads that the designer would expect and failure will occur sooner than the same weld without defects.
    You are right when you say that they should answer in a timely manner to customers. What do you think about waiting for about one year to have a solution for a problem that you have with a product that you bought? Is it within your expectations?
    Another thing that you are wrong is with the fact of my frame has been bought from other staff and from a company with the same name. You don´t buy/use names… You buy companies and along with the purchase come the good and the bad stuff. Imagine if someone sell water with coffee and name the product “Coca-Cola” and use exactly the same bottle of the real “Coca-Cola”!

  82. #82
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    Hi ivo... You are completely wrong about many things as well (namely, matters of business).

    Just to reiterate you ignorance...

    Quote Originally Posted by ivo_goncalves
    Hi Drew… You are completely wrong about many things.
    You don´t buy/use names… You buy companies and along with the purchase come the good and the bad stuff. Imagine if someone sell water with coffee and name the product “Coca-Cola” and use exactly the same bottle of the real “Coca-Cola”!
    I'll give you a little case study...as in, the recent purchase of the Circuit City brand. I can give you many others if you need, but this is the most recent and well known case involving buying an established brand in NAME ONLY. You will see that this purchase was the name and trademarks only...there is no "good and bad" with this purchase. The new owners of the Circuit City brand assume no warranty service whatsoever. It is name ONLY. These purchases are nothing new.

    For all of our sakes, please stop talking out your azz.
    Mountain Cycle Zen
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    The weld does not have a hole mid bead, it has a minor spot where flow has not occurred at the very beginning of a bead. These are not the same thing.

    WRT NDI, an xray will usually only show up a crack or flaw if it happens to fall in precisely the correct plane, otherwise it is pretty much impossible to spot. If the crack does not go through to the surface then dye penetrant testing will not work effectively in showing up a fault, eddy current analyisis would also be unlikely to work in this case. I repeat my assertion that in this case, short of cutting the area and etching the surface to show up the grain structure, an understanding of if this weld is faulty or not is all but impossible.

    As far as "mixing different things" goes, any area on a bike needs to be manufactured so that it is suitable for the task and loads that it will encounter. As I stated before, ISCG mounts while intended to provide protection to chainrings are not intended for repeated massive hits as I wouild expect was the case in the photo you provided of a bike where the mount had been torn away. Structural integrity is related to both the strength of the weld and the length of bead joining the two elements. A 1mm absence of metal at the beginning of this bead is not a relevant flaw.

    For your peace of mind I ran the photo in question past one of the staff here who has been welding full time for the last 25 years and has extensive experience in the welding industry in oxy, braze, silver solder, MIG, TIG, pressure vessel, stainless and most other specialist welding techniques and who has worked for many years and a a teacher in industry and written a number of training manuals on welding techniques. He says you're 100% wrong. it is not a relevant defect and would not result in a failure.

    I did not say that MC has no role to play in answering warranty claims for work carried out by the previous company, what i said was that you have no idea if the same staff or manufacturing processes are in use as were the case when you purchased your bike some years ago. The fact that you experienced a failure has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of welding on current frames.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fullrange Drew
    For your peace of mind I ran the photo in question past one of the staff here who has been welding full time for the last 25 years and has extensive experience in the welding industry in oxy, braze, silver solder, MIG, TIG, pressure vessel, stainless and most other specialist welding techniques and who has worked for many years and a a teacher in industry and written a number of training manuals on welding techniques. He says you're 100% wrong. it is not a relevant defect and would not result in a failure.
    I am not trying to fan the flames here BUT….
    For the sake of this discussion, I had previously showed the photo to an equally qualified individual who came to the same conclusion that this ‘defect’ would not result in failure and should be of no concern.
    It’s obvious we have a difference in opinion, so I do not see the point of continuing to argue who is right or wrong… We should let Mr. G do his thing and work towards a resolution to the issues presented.

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    Nobody is fanning the flames… We are discussing a very important issue and I see that you are trying to clarify this question with the means at your disposal. I understand that for you it´s better listening “that´s not a welding defect”, “there will be no problem” and so on… That is what your heart wants to listen…
    Let me show you how the people that you have consulted, for many experience that they have, are completely wrong about this. However I agree with one thing: The location, in this case, of the defect will not probably put the frame in risk. Anyhow as you don´t believe in my word I´ll post an extract of some standards defining welding levels for imperfections.
    In the photo you can see a similar defect were you can see what you are calling “not relevant defect”. And for you to see that it´s not me inventing defects you can see in the picture of the ISO 5817 what is the level of acceptance of this defect. I put here the ISO 5817 because I only have the EN 30042 in Portuguese. But you can see at the picture of EN 30042 that it´s exactly the same thing. If you have any doubts you can translate in google.
    As you can verify this is a severe fault in a welding seam and the NDT technique to detect this fault is the less expensive and the easiest to apply. It´s called VISUAL INSPECTION!! When I say that this shows what type of quality is MC now using in the production of their frames is because if they let pass a defect like this one imagine the kind of defect that you don´t see and they let pass to the streets.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  86. #86
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    This is the last thing I am going to say on this matter and I say it in an official capacity.

    It is very clear to me, Mountain Cycle and many others here, that Ivo has a bone to pick. His claims are becoming more insane as the weeks go on and it's reaching the point that if he does not cease, this matter, one of clear defamation, will start to be taken more seriously and pursued in more a rigorous manner.

    Ivo has no grounds, experience or first hand information about these claims he is making other than something he has managed to look up. His continuation with these claims, in the fervent manner in which he is pursuing it in an open and public forum is now considered a serious matter.

    Neither I nor any other member of Mountain Cycle will continue dialogue with Ivo and we urge members of this forum to not reply to this thread which only seems to fan his obsession.
    ---
    Design Guy [SanAndreas 2.0, Zen II]

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    Mountain Cycle Zen
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    there are hundreds of other bike companies. accept this one as a loss if you think its defective and move on. you and this thread are ridiculous.

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    All you have to do is read the reviews, http://www.mtbr.com/mfr/mountain-cycle/MPR_2311crx.aspx, to realize that MC quality is the best there is!!!

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    And finally I have obtained a final and official answer from MC. Mr. G as promised one and he did gave one. Not so different that I was expecting, but thanks anyway!
    Of course I have a bone to pick. I have bought a San Andreas DNA, at the time announced like a light freeride bike, which after a year and a half of light XC has broken the frame due to evident lack of quality of the weld. Contacts made by the dealer and me from September 2008 until I start writing here in this forum had zero answers from MC!!! Only God knows why!!!
    Now, I am being considered a serious matter and I will be persued… How are you going to arrange time to do that if you don´t even have time to give answers to your costumers?
    And for the record I am tired of your threats like “We will be much firmer with this kind of customer”, “you are going to the bottom of the pile (there is a pile?!!!How long is the pile?!!!)” and so on…. So if you want to persue me… be my guest… And if I am defaming anyone, proving what I am saying with International Standards, what will people think about your explanation to the case (see post #63). In my case it´s very easy to prove that there are an ocean of lies and incorrect information from MC.
    I will buy at short term a new frame to replace this one. I will pick the DNA frame, I will cut it, analyze the weldings to evaluate welding penetration, gas and solid inclusions and then we will have more data to make some conclusions…

  91. #91
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    Does anyone have some bug repellant??

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    Oh, come now, buying and chopping up a perfectly good San An DNA is the ideal way to prove that there are flaws in the welding methods used on the ISCG tabs on the current production Rumbles...

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

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    Ivo,

    You go do that.




    .
    shoot me again, I ain't dead yet

    I do not have mountainbikes, I have Mountain Cycles

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    good luck finding a new example of a frame that is not made anymore!
    Mountain Cycle collector,i have 8 of 'em now!

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    analyzing the welding on the DNA will be ultimately pointless, it was made by Kinesis US and not the current MC team so the manufacturing process will be irrelevant to what's happening now.

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    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
    My English must be very bad or else….
    The rumble is not mine… It´s a photo posted by another person, in another thread!!!
    Here goes my bike, and photos of the problem that the responsible don´t care about it!!!
    The manufacturing process could be different but the picture of the welding of the rumble and the explanation gave for that to happen shows very well that the school is exactly the same…
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  97. #97
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    Nice, so you posted an enlargement of the photo from your frame from when you started this tread.



    Well, the crack is still there alright.
    shoot me again, I ain't dead yet

    I do not have mountainbikes, I have Mountain Cycles

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    its like blaming the owners of the new Hinkley made Triumph motorcycles for a failure on an old Meriden made Triumph...

    Fella, the new MC owners didnt design this bike, manufacture this bike or even sell this bike... and just for trying to support this bike with spares they got to be applauded.

  99. #99
    mtbr member
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    Made by Kinesis from what we've read, not by the current production team.

    So:

    Your "claims" about the Rumble frame (which many experienced and well informed people do not agree with) have nothing to do with the fault in your frame as the production team and probably the location are not the same.

    Any new DNA you find will also not be the same production as yours.

    You couldn't be bothered to get in touch with the shop you purchased the bike from to get a copy of the receipt but you're willing to buy an entire new bike just so you chop it up, just in order to stand on your soap box?

    BTW, for reliability sake, it's best you get the cutting and analysis done at an accredited and independent analytical lab. Glad it's your money not mine. Could buy a top end Yeti for what you're proposing to expend not proving any point...

    For your benefit, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot are the international radio call signs for the letters WTF.

    WTF is an acronym, the first two words being "what" and "the"...

  100. #100
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mountain Cycle Shawn's Avatar
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    12,658
    f%ck! Thats the last word!

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