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  1. #1
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    New bike special tools needed

    I just ordered a cliff 29er, should be here next week. What special tools, oil do i need to assemble and maintain this bike. I have a complete set of automotive tools just need to know what i need for the BB and crank. Thanks for any help you can offer.

  2. #2
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    Standard grease will be fine, you can buy bike specific grease but most of it is marked up standard grease. I like Phil Wood grease as its very resistant to washing away, its a marine grease if you just want to buy it bulk. I also like to use anti-seize on my bottom bracket and pedal threads.

    There are lots of chain lubes out there and "home recipes" as well, but I like Pro-Gold Prolink and its one of the highest rated chain lubes on MTBR

    Depending on which model of Cliff 29er you purchased, you'll need a crank puller and a bottom bracket tool. If its the Comp or Pro, you'll need a Shimano BB Cartridge Tool, like a Park BBT-22. You'll also need a crank puller like the Park CCP-2. If its the team, you'll need a different BB tool like the Park BBT-12 for the external Truvativ BB.

    You'll also need a set of metric allen wrenches, at least a 15mm cone wrench to adjust the hubs (the hubs on the Cliff 29ers use 15mm for the cones on both the front and rear hubs). A torx T-25 is required to install the brake rotors.

    This is a bare bones list, there are lots of other tools that are useful, but these should get you on your way when combined with your automotive tools.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    I also like to use anti-seize on my bottom bracket and pedal threads.
    FWIW, one LBS owner whom I do trust claims that he has seen nothing but troubles and stripped threads from using anti-seize on bottom brackets. I follow his advise and just lube it.

    I also use a jar of Phil Wood for everything, as I did believe in explanation that mixing even small amounts of left over grease of a different type (say lithium complex in Phil Wood (AFAIK) and polyurea in Park Tools polylube) is somewhat worse then using some slightly less optimal grease, even if the grease is compatible (chart below). So even as some claim that Phil Wood may separate and run (have not seen any evidence of that), I just use the same thing constantly. I get it in a big jar, but instead of dipping in it with dirty fingers I do pack about 10cc at a time into a plastic syringe.

    P.S. Here is a grease compatibility chart. AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong) one should avoid calcium based grease and any calcium based additives for bikes... Or maybe that's BS - as Slick Honey has calcium based thickener AFAIK...

    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-16-2008 at 01:21 PM.

  4. #4
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    16 years, mnothing stripped

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    FWIW, one LBS owner whom I do trust claims that he has seen nothing but troubles and stripped threads from using anti-seize on bottom brackets. I follow his advise and just lube it.
    Anti-Seize doesn't cause stripped threads, not using torque wrenches causes stripped threads. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that

    Been using it for 16 years on my own bikes and for 8 years as a mechanic...not a single stripped thread from using anti-seize

    Your LBS owner was probably just trying to sell you a tube of grease with that line of BS

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Anti-Seize doesn't cause stripped threads, not using torque wrenches causes stripped threads. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that

    Been using it for 16 years on my own bikes and for 8 years as a mechanic...not a single stripped thread from using anti-seize

    Your LBS owner was probably just trying to sell you a tube of grease with that line of BS
    I do not buy tubes of grease in this store, and I do trust his judgement over yours any time of the day. He owns this busy place for 30 years. Apparently, he have seen issues. For what it is worth was my disclaimer. I have no way to verify this one way or another.

    I had used anti-sieze, and it did not cause any problems, but neither did just using lube.

    P.S. And, by the way, I am an actual (former) rocket scientist. Things I have helped to design are flying in space right now.

  6. #6
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    Marine grease and no torque wrench, and I have never stripped a bolt (but I have had a lot fall out )

    It really isn't that difficult. A little common sense, and you will be ok.
    It's only pain......

  7. #7
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    Get yourself one of these and you're good to go.

    http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...ID=4218http://
    No moss...

  8. #8
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    Good for you

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    P.S. And, by the way, I am an actual (former) rocket scientist. Things I have helped to design are flying in space right now.
    Like I said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that anti-seize doesn't cause stripped bolts...so then what is your excuse mr rocket scientist

  9. #9
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    Wait a second! Using anti-seize on the bottom bracket and pedal threads is a very common practice at the majority of experienced and quality bike shops. It IS NOT the cause of stripped threads. That is completely ridiculous! There are several other variables that DO cause it (excluding the use of anti-seize).
    SOURCE- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_bracket
    QUOTE- Cranks can occasionally seize onto the spindle sufficiently to prevent their removal by a conventional puller, and grease or anti-seize compound at the interface can help to prevent this. - END QUOTE
    Personally, I don't know what kind of rocket scientist you are... but I certainly hope you weren't involved in the development of the faulty O-Rings that caused the 1986 Challenger Space Shuttle disaster and the worst failure in the history of the NASA manned space program. Mmmm.. You didn't say you worked for NASA or Morton Thiokol did you?
    I'd trust Mtnbiker72's opinion/judgement regarding bike building over your (or your LBS buddy's) arrogance regarding this ANYTIME.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Like I said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that anti-seize doesn't cause stripped bolts...so then what is your excuse mr rocket scientist
    First of all, I am not about to make any excuses. I have explicitly presented the source of this information - and I have no idea where you pulled anything about a torque wrench from ( I may guess sun does not shine there). From what I have heard he was concerned with pulling things out after a few years, not putting them in. It is somewhat plausible to assume that while antiseize may prevent galling, it may in fact increase friction or affect aluminum surface after a while. I would not make any statements for or against this. I will just keep using bearing lube instead. It keeps things cleaner, easier to dissasemble and assemble and I have one less sticky substance to deal with.

  11. #11
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    Wow, this was my first post here and it generated such spirited discussion, Thanks. Anyway i did in fact order the Cliff 29er Team and my main concern is getting that BB and crank properly lubed and tight. The specs tell me it has the Firex 3.1 GXP crank and GXP external bearing, so do i use the park BBT-12 or BBT-22. I can't see how you could use a torque wrench with either one of those tools is there a socket type available? Bike should be here on the 20th and i'd like to get everything ready to start assembly. Thanks everyone.

  12. #12
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    Now your really being stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    and I have no idea where you pulled anything about a torque wrench from ( I may guess sun does not shine there).
    All bicycle components have torque settings...read the instructions of your stem, bottom bracket, cranks, cassettes, etc. Your feeble attempts to discredit my experience with "I'm a rocket scientist" crap is pathetic.


    Here is a torque specifications and concepts strait from the Park Tool website and any reputable LBS knows how to and uses a torque wrench.
    http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=88

    Got anymore stingers mr rocket scientist?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    All bicycle components have torque settings...read the instructions of your stem, bottom bracket, cranks, cassettes, etc. Your feeble attempts to discredit my experience with "I'm a rocket scientist" crap is pathetic.
    WTF are you talking about? Do you have reading comprehension problems? Where is anything I have wrote was anything about torque settings? You are arrogant and rude (and by the way I do own four different torque wrenches from KD tools and Snap-On, two needles and two clickers, and always use them for all assembly tasks).

    And dude, where did I want to descredit you? If anything, what I have learned during my years in academia was to listen to people who have actual practical experience, rather then to stick to my, however profound, theoretical knowledge. I would have listened to our group mechanic more then to my Monte Carlo simulation code. What building research satellites teaches you is to not take anything for granted.

    This is exactly the reason I have listened of an experienced shop owner, and humbly shared his advise with this board, with all the proper disclosures attached.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffw-13
    Get yourself one of these and you're good to go.

    http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...ID=4218http://
    If you prefer to use a ratchet instead of regular hex key(I do - as you can reuse it with a torque wrench, once you get it - a must for the shiny new carbon parts you will want to install) - Nashbar is a better option:

    Nasbar tool kit

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagsr71
    Personally, I don't know what kind of rocket scientist you are... but I certainly hope you weren't involved in the development of the faulty O-Rings that caused the 1986 Challenger Space Shuttle disaster and the worst failure in the history of the NASA manned space program. Mmmm.. You didn't say you worked for NASA or Morton Thiokol did you?
    I did work at Goddard for a bit when in grad school, and I was involved in the development of a data acquisition system that has miserably failed during testing (thankfully fixed), and in design of one instrument on a platform that was launched about ten years ago and it was a pretty big disappointment from the results standpoint, as another team seriously f..d-up. I went on to design software standards.

    I have no doubts that you and your shop mechanic buddy will do a much better job. Enjoy yourself and have a nice day.

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsr71
    Cranks can occasionally seize onto the spindle sufficiently..
    You also suffer from reading comprehension problems. I never mentioned anything about cranks.

    And yes, you can damage threads when removing a baked in aluminum BB cup. If you claim it can not happen - you do not know what you are talking about.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-17-2008 at 11:19 AM.

  16. #16
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    What do you guys do adjusting torque values, in regard to wet/dry threads. Also, do you compensate for different lubes (oil, grease, teflon, loctite etc?
    It's only pain......

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSteve F
    What do you guys do adjusting torque values, in regard to wet/dry threads. Also, do you compensate for different lubes (oil, grease, teflon, loctite etc?
    For my bikes I use lower value in the specified range for a well lubricated thread, and higher value in the range for a dry one. But such accuracy, I think, is an overkill for a bike. Just do not strip it.

    P.S. Rough guess for torque needed: Torque ~ (Nut factor) x (thread diameter) x (required tension)
    Tension is what can strip thread, torque is what may strip a bolt head. Nut factor is proportional to friction.
    If nut factor is ~0.1 for new, lubricated thread, it may be ~0.2 for old dry ones, or 0.5 for a rusty one. That's a pretty big range.. Anti-seize coating yields about 50% higher average nut factor then grease (source: googled handbook of bolts and bolted joints, I was curious).
    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-17-2008 at 01:44 PM.

  18. #18
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    Whatever

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    WTF are you talking about? Do you have reading comprehension problems? Where is anything I have wrote was anything about torque settings? You are arrogant and rude (and by the way I do own four different torque wrenches from KD tools and Snap-On, two needles and two clickers, and always use them for all assembly tasks).

    And dude, where did I want to descredit you? If anything, what I have learned during my years in academia was to listen to people who have actual practical experience, rather then to stick to my, however profound, theoretical knowledge. I would have listened to our group mechanic more then to my Monte Carlo simulation code. What building research satellites teaches you is to not take anything for granted.

    This is exactly the reason I have listened of an experienced shop owner, and humbly shared his advise with this board, with all the proper disclosures attached.
    Arrogant and Rude...I'm not the one using the "I'm a Rocket Scientist" card

    If anything, thinking that having a PHD and being a "Rocket Scientist" means you have better knowledge of bicycle mechanics than someone who has actually worked many years as a bike mechanic is "Arrogant"

    And you still...with all your rocket scientist knowledge...have not explained how anti-seize can cause stripped bolts. Come on Einstein, lets hear it

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Arrogant and Rude...I'm not the one using the "I'm a Rocket Scientist" card
    No, you have used "I'm a bike mechanic so buzz off" card. Me being a (former) rocket scientist has nothing to do with this "discussion" and I have never claimed any personal knowledge on the subject. Read my initial post. I have mentioned that in a futile attempt to lightened it up. I should have known better.

    Now your buddy is painting everybody with a Ph.D. as an arrogant moron. Talk about insecurity..

    Have a nice day.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    And you still...with all your rocket scientist knowledge...have not explained how anti-seize can cause stripped bolts. Come on Einstein, lets hear it
    Nut factor for anti-seize is 50% higher then for grease, and may increase with time. Refute that, Joe the Plumber.

    P.S. I have no idea if that is of any importance, and I have clearly stated that as such from the very start. It was you with reading comprehension and anxiety issues who got his panties in a knot.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-17-2008 at 04:04 PM.

  20. #20
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    Good One

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    No, you have used "I'm a bike mechanic so buzz off" card. Me being a (former) rocket scientist has nothing to do with this "discussion" and I have never claimed any personal knowledge on the subject. Read my initial post. I have mentioned that in a futile attempt to lightened it up. I should have known better.

    Now your buddy is painting everybody with a Ph.D. as an arrogant moron. Talk about insecurity..

    Have a nice day.



    Nut factor for anti-seize is 50% higher then for grease, and may increase with time. Refute that, Joe the Plumber.

    P.S. I have no idea if that is of any importance, and I have clearly stated that as such from the very start. It was you with reading comprehension and anxiety issues who got his panties in a knot.
    Provide me the evidence that anti-seize has a 50% higher nut factor (also known as the K value in T=K d F formula...in case you thought I didn't know what nut factor is) then I will dispute it

    And by the way, I suck at plumbing so calling me Joe the Plumber is really insulting to to Mr. Wurzelbacher as I'm sure he is WAY more competent at plumbing than I'll or you'll ever be


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    You also suffer from reading comprehension problems. I never mentioned anything about cranks.
    My point is that anti-seize is commonly used on bike components... Be it the crank or the BB. That is why I specifically posted a source providing some proof in the matter. However I have never heard and would really like to see some reputable proof on your part that anti-seize leads to nothing but troubles and is even the cause of stripped threads ( which happens to be YOUR claim).

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Now your buddy is painting everybody with a Ph.D. as an arrogant moron. Talk about insecurity..
    Well... Not really. I hold a Ph.D. as well. I hold education in the highest esteem but don't think I'm smarter than others. In fact, I've met many folks smarter than myself except they'd never had the chance to go to school. Honestly. I just think you were initially trying to discredit someone on this forum (mtbiker72) and it seemed rather unnecessary. I believe many of us on this forum have observed how Mtbiker72's posts have always imparted helpful tips based on his extensive experience. He has always conducted himself as a class act.
    That being said. I think it's time for all of us to move on and let this thing reach it's end. It's NOT productive for anyone. What I do think we can agree on is that we all have a passion for our bikes and for riding them. That should be our premise to move on from.
    BTW- Not sure why posts are so badly out of sequence. One has to look at the time/date of posts.
    Last edited by jagsr71; 10-20-2008 at 11:32 AM.

  22. #22
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    lol


  23. #23
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    Sorry, could you run that by me again...in English. As a non-engineer, could I get it in plain, easy to understand language?

    If I have a stem bolt that should be 48 in/lbs dry (does anyone install bolts dry on a bike?) what percentage do you reduce it by, if you lube it with:-
    -oil
    -grease
    -antiseize
    -other lube
    It's only pain......

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Provide me the evidence that anti-seize has a 50% higher nut factor (also known as the K value in T=K d F formula...in case you thought I didn't know what nut factor is) then I will dispute it:
    Evidence

    Seriously though, I am sure that a properly torqued bb cup will do just fine even if you have lubricated it with pig feces. But I also would not be surprised that when removing an old, over torqued cup you are much more likely pull thread if it is installed with something other then grease. Sounded good enough for me to use grease.

    Do you insists there is anything wrong with using grease?


  25. #25
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    Will the Park CCP-2 crank puller work on the cliff 29er team ?
    Also, BB Tool: should I get http://cgi.ebay.com/TRUVATIV-GXP-BIC...8703QQihZ019QQ or
    http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/119...--TruVativ.htm ?

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