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  1. #1
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    Fly Team Over Fly Ti

    I Was Planning On Buying A Fly Ti, But Of Course I Waited Too Long And Now They Donít Have My Size. I Was Really Counting On Buying A Ti Bike. I Donít Think I Can Wait Until They Build More So I Was Thinking Of Buying The Fly Team.

    Anyone Have Any Input/review Of This Bike For Me, Or Should I Wait For Ti And If So Does Anyone Know How Long It Will Be Before They Build More.

    Thanks Anthony

  2. #2
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    yoU mighT havE tO waiT untiL nexT yeaR oT geT thE flY teaM sO gettinG A fantoM tI mighT eB A gooD holdeR foR ouY untiL theN.

    yoU mighT eveN realizE the fantoM tI mighT bE alL thaT yoU wanteD/needeD iN thE firsT placE, althougH the flY teaM is definitelY A sweeT ridE.

  3. #3
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    Humor I can appreciate


  4. #4
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    Look at Fantom Pro Ti. It is the same frame with a slight downgrade (and trail worthiness upgrade) in components. Once they wear out you can replace them with weight weenie parts. Same fork, and about two pounds heavier overall - half of the increase is in beefy tires.

    I would have bought Fantom if it was available when I have ordered Fly Ti, as I have ended up replacing/upgrading many parts anyway.

  5. #5
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    Thank you all for the posts.

    I don't no why the font posted like like when I copy/pasted it from word processor, I was in a rush and didn't notice it, but yes very funny.

  6. #6
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    I would second the Fantom Pro Ti as well, the increased weight is in actual trail worthy parts...tires for instance that actually work on multiple surfaces, not just smooth hardpack. It also comes with an actual MTB cassette, not a road cassette.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    It also comes with an actual MTB cassette, not a road cassette.
    [offtopic] We have had this discussion else where - but I do not understand where this notion that 27t is too high a gear for an MTB comes from. Yes, 12-27 is missing a single gear - about 18% lower, compared with some 12-32 cassette - but honestly, how often do you need that one gear? I may end up using it on a 37lb trail bike - but on a 22lb hardtail?

  8. #8
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    Moto is the only one

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    [offtopic] We have had this discussion else where - but I do not understand where this notion that 27t is too high a gear for an MTB comes from. Yes, 12-27 is missing a single gear - about 18% lower, compared with some 12-32 cassette - but honestly, how often do you need that one gear? I may end up using it on a 37lb trail bike - but on a 22lb hardtail?
    Have you ever noticed that Motobecane is the ONLY bike company who does this...name me one other

    If you want a "pro-style" setup, most XC pros (I know, I've worked on their bikes) run a 2x9 set up with a mountain cassette.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Have you ever noticed that Motobecane is the ONLY bike company who does this...name me one other
    First of all, one the other end of the bike spectrum: http://www.sicklines.com/2008/02/25/...ette-pg-970-dh

    So the "ONLY" exclamation is somewhat misplaced.

    Then all of the bikes now come with 175mm cranks. Which is a really wrong idea for a whole lot of people, both short and tall. So industry convenience and consensus means jack sh.t IMHO.

    I rode a bunch of endurance events and found that I do not need that one extra gear on a lightweight hardtail, that is good evidence enough for me. Observing other folks around me - they do not use that last gear either.
    +Shorter derailleur, shorter chain, lighter cassette, more accurate gear choices, slightly cleaner shifting.
    -One gear available that I never used.

    Double setup with a 26t small ring and 32 cassette is the same low gear as 22/27, and there is a good use for a 44/12 gear on a bike like Fly, so I would rather stay with a triple.

  10. #10
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    You are in the minority

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Then all of the bikes now come with 175mm cranks. Which is a really wrong idea for a whole lot of people, both short and tall. So industry convenience and consensus means jack sh.t IMHO.

    I rode a bunch of endurance events and found that I do not need that one extra gear on a lightweight hardtail, that is good evidence enough for me.
    +Shorter derailleur, shorter chain, lighter cassette, more accurate gear choices, slightly cleaner shifting.
    -One gear available that I never used.
    Good for you that you don't use the 32 tooth...but MOST people use all of their gears on a mountain cassette. And BTW-the cassette you linked to is clearly labeled as a DH (as in downhill) cassette which is common on bikes that only go...downhill...hence the DH

    And your also totally wrong on the "all of the bikes come with 175mm cranks" statement. Most bike companies actually put 170mm cranks on their smaller sized bikes and definitely on their woman's specific bikes. Its still not perfect, but 175's are not on all bikes.

    I'm really happy for you that you love your road cassette...but again you are in a major minority and BD only puts that cassette on the bike so they can advertise how light their bike is. While I overall like BD and of course own one of their products...it is simply dumb to spec a bike with parts that are not appropriate for the majority of their buyers.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    I'm really happy for you that you love your road cassette...but again you are in a major minority and BD only puts that cassette on the bike so they can advertise how light their bike is. While I overall like BD and of course own one of their products...it is simply dumb to spec a bike with parts that are not appropriate for the majority of their buyers.
    12-27 cassette is perfectly appropriate for all the buyers who ride a lightweight racing hardtail. (would be completely optimal with a 11-28). They may not realize that since they did not try it in a long time. There is absolutely nothing wrong with missing a single low gear and a lot of benefits that I have enumerated.

    You do own a 29r? So your lowest gear/inch with a 32 cassette is only 6% lower then my 27t cassette on a 26" wheel, and that's on a bike that is significantly heavier. Do you really think 5% less available matters that much?

    I see where you benefit from a 11-32/34 if you run 2x9 setup as many XC racers do, but if you need a slightly wider overall range of a triple, 12-27 works just fine.

    Yes, I know it is a DH cassette in the link, I said it about the other end of the bike spectrum.

    Anybody taller then 6" will be better off with a 180mm+ crank, and anybody under 5'4" needs 165mm. They do not get it.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-15-2008 at 04:29 PM.

  12. #12
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    Dave Wiens and Lance Armstrong both were running XTR cassettes during the Leadville 100.

    To each his own. I ride with some very competitive riders (for fun) and we all use MTB cassettes. Motobecane is the only XC Mountain bike I've seen that comes with the 12-27.

    Maybe Curmy should be on a SS.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowind
    Dave Wiens and Lance Armstrong both were running XTR cassettes during the Leadville 100.
    Was it a 2x9 setup by any chance? But I would guess they both could ride anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowind
    Maybe Curmy should be on a SS.
    No, thanks. I own a SS, but I would not use it on an adventure race. I need my knees to last a while.

    When you ride with your competitive friends - take a note on how often they actually use the last gear. I did it once on a 36 hours race (that involved 10000ft overall climbing on a bike), and I have used 24/32 once - and 22/27 would have worked just as well, as it quickly ended in a hike-a-bike. Yes, I am that anal to track what gears I use, and I am not strong at all - I sit and spin. And Fly Ti will be for sprints. And I would not ever bother switching my Yeti or Kona to a road cassette.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-15-2008 at 05:28 PM.

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    Curmy, if you can ride without a 32 or 34 tooth than either you are a very strong rider, or you don't have any really steep hills. If you are a very strong rider that is great for you, and I applaud all the hard work you have done. I can tell you that I get a lot of use out of my 32, whether it is in the middle ring, or the granny ring. But there are some questions that you need to answer.

    1. Why does no one, not one company, make a mountain bike cassette that uses a 27 tooth low gear (other than downhill cassettes which aren't made for climbing anyway)? If, according to you no one needs a 32 on a race hardtail, then there should be a lot of people needing a mountian cassette with a 27 tooth low. And if there were all these people, manufacturers would be more than willing to make them.

    2. Why is the use of road cassettes so uncommon, since again according to you that is what you need on a race hardtail.

    3. Why not have a 32 tooth. Are you really worried about the 80g or so of extra weight? You can get an XTR cassette which weighs no more than an Ultegra.

    What it comes down to is this. Just because you don't need and or want something don't make the assumption that everyone else is like you, or should be like you. There is at least one benefit of a 32 that even you would utilize. You do not have to shift to the granny gear as often, which for me is extremely convienient.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    1. Why does no one, not one company, make a mountain bike cassette that uses a 27 tooth low gear (other than downhill cassettes which aren't made for climbing anyway)? If, according to you no one needs a 32 on a race hardtail, then there should be a lot of people needing a mountian cassette with a 27 tooth low. And if there were all these people, manufacturers would be more than willing to make them.
    For the same reason they do not put appropriate cranks on bike. And unlike a proper sized crankarm having a 32t around does not hurt.

    I am not claiming that everybody should be using a 27t cassette. I am claiming that most strong words against such use are either unfounded or exaggerated.

    This is a one extra gear ratio - 18% difference. (6% with a 29r on a 11-32). Your statement that one must be a particularly strong rider to not need that one extra low gear does not seem to hold to an experimental verification. When 22/32 is good enough for a 35lb trail bike, 22/27 should be good enough for a 21lb race bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    2. Why is the use of road cassettes so uncommon, since again according to you that is what you need on a race hardtail.
    For the same reason that use of proper size cranks is uncommon. Common solution works well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    3. Why not have a 32 tooth. Are you really worried about the 80g or so of extra weight? You can get an XTR cassette which weighs no more than an Ultegra.
    Because I do not need it. I can get a Dura-Ace 12-27 9sp that is 50gr lighter then XTR and $100 cheaper on EBay. And Ultegra came with my Fly Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    What it comes down to is this. Just because you don't need and or want something don't make the assumption that everyone else is like you, or should be like you.
    What it comes down to is that I was not making arguments against usage of a wider range cassette, I use'em myself and would not bother changing - I was responding to arguments against usage of a slightly more narrow cassette. I am not sure that people who argue against it do have any other solid justification besides "everybody uses 32/34".

  16. #16
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    I use 11-34 on my 29er

    First answer, I use a an 11-34 on my 29er. This makes my lowest gear 15% lower than a 26er with a 22/27 setup. In addition, my 29er gets significantly better traction which allows me to stand and climb on trails my 26er would lose traction on if I stood. That said, there is a push to bring back the compact 5 bolt 58/94 crankset pattern so a 20 tooth gear can be used on 29ers. Back in the mid-90's when the 8 speed cassettes were 11-28, I used 20 tooth grannies which overall was 6% higher than a 26er with a 22/32 low gear. When 8 speed 11-30 cassettes came out, the 20/30 is nearly identical to the current 22/32.

    Second, both Dave Weins and Lance Armstrong used XTR Triple cranksets in Leadville with full XTR cassettes. You can click these picture links as proof.
    http://www.ultrarob.com/blog/uploade...604-741677.JPG
    http://www.velonews.com/files/images/wiensbike.jpg

    So two of the best riders in the world use full MTB cassettes and triple cranksets. And again what company uses a road cassette on their top of the line race hardtails? NONE, ZERO, ZIP

    The $6600 Specialized S-Works Hardtail comes with an 11-34 and if that isn't a pure bred race machine, then what is? Yet Specialized doesn't try and make it artificially light with a Dura-Ace cassette and worthless tires.

    You can defend it all you want, a XC mountain bike should not come with a road cassette. It should only be a weight weenie choice after the bike is purchased since so few (including top pros) would never use a road cassette on their bikes.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    The $6600 Specialized S-Works Hardtail comes with an 11-34 and if that isn't a pure bred race machine, then what is? Yet Specialized doesn't try and make it artificially light with a Dura-Ace cassette and worthless tires.
    They also come with a choice of two crank lengths and only five frame sizes and the reason for this is purely and entirely economical. It does cost too much to make another carbon mold and to stock and distribute too many parts, and those sizes work well enough. Will you argue that nobody should ever fit the bike to them? Gearing is just as important as the frame size, and no, you have not offered a shred of actual evidence that a 20lb hardtail should have the same gearing as a 35lb 6" travel trail bike. I have offered you an observation of actual gear usage (not just carrying it around, but actually using it). Good enough for me - and no, I was was not putting down *your* choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    And again what company uses a road cassette on their top of the line race hardtails? NONE, ZERO, ZIP
    How many other companies offer a nice Ti frame with top parts for $2K to your door? Should BD also follow the best industry practices and offer 100% mark-up at your friendly LBS?

    BD also specs 12-27 only on a few models - it seems they do actually understand the difference in usage.

    Only Cannondale (probably) offers BB30 frames - does it mean that it is a bad solution? $6500 Specialized does not offer it, and Lance Armstrong did not ride it - must be a bad mistake to ever offer a lighter and stiffer choice .

    Nobody would argue that a Jeep Wrangler and a Porche should come with the same gearing - why should my Kona Coiler and my Yeti Kokopelli and my new Fly Ti have the same gearing? It is entirely illogical to suggest that common parts is anything more then a reasonable compromise. (my current bikes are now 22/36 to 11/34, 24/32/44 to 11/32, and 22/32/44 to 12-27, and I have used pretty much anything that had been available in the last 20 years).

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    You can defend it all you want, a XC mountain bike should not come with a road cassette. It should only be a weight weenie choice after the bike is purchased since so few (including top pros) would never use a road cassette on their bikes.
    You can defend industrial conventions all you want, but so far you have not offered a single argument beyond "everybody doing it" for why you need an extra gear ratio out of ~14 available in this *particular* application. What Lance uses is irrelevant just as much as what Joe Sixpack uses on his Walmart special. 12-27 gearing works perfectly well on a light hardtail and I applaud BD for offering this choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    ..allows me to stand and climb on trails my 26er would lose traction on if I stood
    If Fly Ti loses traction it is not because of the choice of gearing, but because of the choice of its tires. 18% lower gearing will not make a dent of a difference, and one can pedal smooth enough standing. Traction is not a direct function of gearing.

    Sorry, but you are just repeating "everybody is doing it so it must be right". That does not make a strong argument.

    Many good adventure racers often run the whole race on cyclo-cross bikes with 36/46 cranksets, even as they suffer through roughs. Will you tell them that they are dumb for making this choice and they should use a "real" mountain bike? Hogwash and a pound of boloney. Fly Ti in fact fits in between a cyclo-cross bike and a trail bike. It is only natural and right to have gearing set-up in between those choices as well.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-15-2008 at 11:06 PM.

  18. #18
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    Your argument comparing crank length to cassette gears is ridiculous. In the case of cassettes it would be extremely easy to make a mountain 11-27 cassette since the tooling already exists. So if there was a market for them, they would exist. In fact Shimano would probably just relabel an Ultegra cassette as an XT. No major crank manufacturer has tooling to make multiple crank lengths, except 170 and 175mm and maybe a few others. The tooling for the cranks will cost too much, because there isn't much demand for the smaller or larger sizes, because the majority of riders are not huge or tiny. But again, tooling for cassettes alrady exists!

    Why do so many people make an issue of the Ultegra cassette on the Motos? Well because the majority of people do NOT want it. Why spec your bike with something the majority of people do not want, and will have to pay money to replace, just so the few weight weenie guys can be happy? The simple answer is that they want to make the bike light for marketing purposes. I think most intelligent people can see that. So yeah, people do not like having to spend extra money to buy a new cassette for a new bike. If bikesdirect would give you a choise of cassettes you would see very little people complaining about the road cassette, as long as they can get what they want they don't care.

    There is no winning this argument about gears in a forum. What I really would like to see, is you out on the trail riding every hill with the 27. There is one place I ride with an extremely steep hill that has a layer of sand on top. On the trail map it is labeled as "cardio climb". You CANNOT stand and mash to get up this hill because of the sand, your rear wheel will just spin out. The only way to get up this hill is to shift to your lowest gear, stay seated and using a slow steady pedal stroke ease your way up the hill. I would love to see you get up this hill in the 27.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    Your argument comparing crank length to cassette gears is ridiculous. In the case of cassettes it would be extremely easy to make a mountain 11-27 cassette since the tooling already exists.
    No it is not, you just did not get it. The point is that a unified solution that works well enough will be offered, as companies would not bother to optimize their offerings and cranks is a good example of that. It does not hurt to offer a wider cassette as a standard- I have never stated it does. It is just not optimal.

    Why stop at 34? Why not a 36 with a 20 in front? Somebody did their homework and came out that it works OK - for everything including heavy AM bikes with 2.5" tires. It also works OK for a lightweight racer - but that does not mean it is optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    What I really would like to see, is you out on the trail riding every hill with the 27.
    As I have mentioned, I have monitored my gear usage on multiple adventure races in Sierra Nevada mountains, I am very particular about my equipment, my food and so on and keep logs and pay attention - and I do not switch into the last one, and most good racers around me rarely use it, and a whole bunch of people do it on cyclo-cross bikes - with a frigging 36 in front. That's a fact. I am most definitely not a very good athlete - I am barely good enough to finish a 24+ hours race in the second half of the pack.

    Fly Ti with narrow tires is really a heavier duty cyclo-cross bike and must be geared as such. It is the right solution to offer it like that.

    For trail riding I just assembled a new 6" FS Kona. It is entirely unfounded and utterly illogical to suggest that a 6" AM bike needs the same gearing as a sprint race hardtail.

    Sorry, but your arguments just do not stand up to logical and experimental verification. Be honest to youself - pop in a 12-17 cassette and ride around on a 20lb hardttail - for trails that a 20.5lb hardtail is suitable for..

    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-16-2008 at 11:31 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy

    Sorry, but your arguments just do not stand up to logical and experimental verification. Be honest to youself - pop in a 12-17 cassette and ride around on a 20lb hardttail - for trails that a 20.5lb hardtail is suitable for..

    Have a nice day.
    What is your "experimental verification". Do you even understand the scientific method? What you have described is not experimental verification, it is in fact called anecdotal evidence. How in the world does your anecdotal evidence about your adventrure races have anything to do with me, or anyone else for that matter?

    Some real experiments you could do:

    1. Statistically you could take a random poll of mountain bike riders to ask if they use their 32.

    2. You could take a large group of random mountain bike riders to a very hilly course with bikes equipped with both a 27 and a 32. The cassette would need to be obscured so they cannot see what size cassette is on the bike. At the end ask their opinions on the gearing and monitor their times.

    3. You can take a random poll of who would be interested in a 12-27 vs. 11-32 cassette when shopping for a lightweight hardtail.

    Notice none of the experiments includes you. No scientific experiment can include the researcher as this could influence the results. They need to be mountain bike riders which may include racers. But using racers only does not give a correct sampling of all the possible buyers of a mountain bike and thus a racer only test would be insignificant.

    Once you complete the above studies get back to me, and then we can talk about real experimental verification. Other wise all you can say is that YOU only need a 27 tooth.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith
    Do you even understand the scientific method?
    Yes I do, I have a Ph.D. in experimental physics.

    What you suggest is not an experimental verification. People get bikes with something installed due to industry conventions, and they may use it, but that does not mean it is optimal or necessary. Experimental verification is when people do not employ their preconcieved notions (as ones that you so vividly display), so shopping patterns or polls are much worse of an indicator then an observation that I have offered. So I can only conclude that it is you who do not understand the scientific method.

    It is a firm fact that you can not dispute that many adventure racers use cyclo-cross bikes. That means that 36/27 gearing is good enough for this purpose. It is entirely obvious that in the gap between a heavy AM bike with 22/34 and a cyclo-cross there is plenty of room for a different, optimal solution.

    Observing a person pull away on a steep climb 5 hours into the bike leg of a race in a middle front ring is a scientific observation. Asking the same person about what he thinks he may need is not.

    You have not made a smallest dent in this argument. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 10-16-2008 at 02:30 PM.

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    Has it occured to you...

    That your the ONLY person defending a road cassette on the Motobecanes...

    That's OK, you can ride to the beat of a different drummer...but your explanations are severely lacking in substance

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    That's OK, you can ride to the beat of a different drummer...but your explanations are severely lacking in substance
    I have offered plenty of facts, observations and logical reasons. You have offered NOTHING but point out to an established industry convention.

    You did not refute neither the fact that the cyclo-cross bikes gearing is adequate for many of the same applications that a Fly TI is targeted for, nor the fact that given the choice many people do not actually use the lowest gear, nor the fact that 12-27 offers tangible performance benefits in a particular application.

    The fact that the substance in my explanations flies straight over your head is not a concern to me. Have a nice day.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    That your the ONLY person defending a road cassette on the Motobecanes...

    That's OK, you can ride to the beat of a different drummer...but your explanations are severely lacking in substance
    Not trying to be a dink, but I do agree with Curmy on this subject. Nothing wrong with a lightweight hardtail having a 12-27 cassette. As he said, a light bike going uphill isn't going to need the same gearing as an all-mountain bike.

    I am sure overall weight may have been the primary reason the bike was spec'd this way, but there is strong argument that a 27 rear cog is suitable for the application.

    Most singlespeeds can climb just about anything in 32/16 to 32/20, so to suggest 22/27 is too high, is well, just silly
    It's only pain......

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSteve F
    Not trying to be a dink, but I do agree with Curmy on this subject. Nothing wrong with a lightweight hardtail having a 12-27 cassette. As he said, a light bike going uphill isn't going to need the same gearing as an all-mountain bike.
    Consider two systems

    29r, 35lb, 32t rear cog

    26r, 20lb, 27t rear cog

    Assume a 150lb rider, ignore rolling resistance difference (it is not as important at a low speed steady climb). Total relative force one need to apply to maintain a constant speed uphill for the 29r compared to a 26r

    (185lb*29"/32t)/(170lb*26"/27t) -> 1.025

    So it is actually 2.5% harder to move a 29r in the last gear, and a 26r will move ~8% faster for the same constant power output. (power determines the rate of climb for a given mass, while force depends on gearing and slope for a constant(or zero) acceleration)
    .
    So all the vitriolic arguments against using a 12-27 cassette on a light hardtail should equally apply to a 35lb 29r with a 32t cassette. Which illustrates that they are indeed silly.

    Thank you, but I prefer a more precise cadence selection over many hours, and an extra 60g off my bike (cassette and a shorter chain).

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