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  1. #1
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    fantom not true horst link - but does it really matter?

    OK, thinking about a fantom. My old giant NRS finally cracked and this is a good choice. Question for you guys, I love the efficiency of the NRS horst link suspension. Does the fantom come close? The LBS mechanic is telling me that the pivot above instead of between the rear axle and BB will not feel the same as a genuine horst link. More bob and less efficiency. He suggested I look at a fuji reveal since it has the specialized patented suspension and a great frame. The problem with the fuji? Its $1000 more than the $1500 fantom. The reveal 2.0 has full XT and 100% bearing pivots. Im wondering if we are splitting hairs here or will I be stuck with a bike that is not as good as the horst link....

  2. #2
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    I think the majority of riders would not be able to tell the difference in any way between the pivot on the seatstay, or on the chainstay. Basically to anyone except pro level racers it probably doesn't matter at all. I think shock design and tuning is way more important. I do not own a fantom, but my Sette is a faux bar and it rides great. But ideally if you are concerned about it, you ought to see if you can test ride one somehow.
    2012 On One Whippet 650b
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    1987 Haro RS1

  3. #3
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    Properly setting up the rear shock and the quality of that shock and performance of the fork is much more important. Modern rear shocks with speed sensitive damping are much better then what we used to have.

    Your LBS mechanic is greatly exaggerating any effects by reciting marketing material from manufacturers. He just trying to make a sale.

    One example, when Turner gave up on FSR patent and switched their bikes, such as 5-spot to the design similar to the one on Fantom. Read the reviews when it happened - even professional reviewers hardly noticed. The difference in the wheel axle path (the only thing that actually matters) was pretty much negligible.

    Jamis switched some time ago from FSR to single pivot with linkage driven shock. They did not become horrible.

    Ventana makes suspension with similar properties. They ride great.

    For the money saved you can get a nice light wheelset, say on chainreactioncycles, or from Stan's, which will make much more of a difference for your riding.

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the information guys. you are confirming what I suspected - minute differences where I probably will not notice. The NRS had its issues - too many bushing as well as a top tube to seat post gusset (where mine failed) - so the moto will be a true upgrade!

    Thanks

  5. #5
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    The NRS is not a horst link and was not made to work as such. The function is actually in the name. While it did have a Horst Link that needed a license, it was never designed to work as a HL. The implementation of a HL on a variety of designs does not guarantee anything, especially with the level of the analysis and knowledge over the years of suspension design. It was even found some years ago that many designs using the HL were not functioning as if they had one due to the placement.

  6. #6
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    now Im confused...

  7. #7
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    I had also been wondering lately what type of rear suspension is on the moto's. I have heard people say all kinds of things like, "Moto just uses a generic rear suspension" or some thought it was a horst link or a 4 bar. Mostly from people out on the trail. And with really no knowledge I just accepted what they were telling me.
    Then I remembered I had an old Mountain Bike Action magazine from May of 2008. They list all the different types of rear suspension, with a brief discription of how they work.
    According to them, the actual term for the moto rs is called a "rocker link" or a "walking beam" And just as Curmy said, it is used on the Turner 5 spot and they also list the Kona Stinky. And from what I understand in the article, they list the rocker link, horst lint,ICT, and several others under the four-bar linkage catagory. They do look simular so that may be why some people get confused, I know I do! Any way, it looks to me like they are just trying find a whole bunch of different ways to do the same thing.

  8. #8
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    Don't go by MBA. It's all wrong. Even designers using the HL, past and present, will tell you the HL is only a link within a suspension design, not a suspension design in itself. Specialized's marketing made this misconception so. A variety of suspensions can have a HL, or the HL won't even work according to Specialized's advertising campaign, depending on what the designer was doing with it. The NRS and GT LTS are two designs where the HL was used, but the overall suspension worked contrary to the theory behind it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wscott
    They do look simular so that may be why some people get confused, I know I do! Any way, it looks to me like they are just trying find a whole bunch of different ways to do the same thing.
    The key difference is whether you have a pivot between the wheel axle and the main pivot of the chainstay. One of the thing you may actually notice that it affects is how the suspension behaves when you apply the rear brake. Single pivot one may lose a bit of suspension performance in this case, as a braking forces will affect suspension travel. Systems with floating brakes, such as Kona's D.O.P.E. alleviate this. It is more noticeable on long travel DH bikes. I could only notice this on 4 to 5" travel bikes if I pay a very close attention, and individual differences in execution of a particular suspension design and rear shock behavior dwarf this effect.

    As Mr. Chicken sad, do not parse every word that MBA writes. While it is somewhat based in reality, conclusions may confuse the living crap out of you. Proof is in the fact that there are plenty of excellent bikes with single pivot suspension with low pivot similar to one used on Fantom (Yeti AS-R and 575, 05-08 Turners, such as Flux and 5-spot, Ventana El Saltamonte, X-5, Kona Kikapu, Coiler and others, Trek Fuel (before concetric pivot), and many many others). Ask owners of those bikes if they really care about FSR or VPP/DW hype.

    Better, well modulating brakes, lighter wheels and tires, tunable rear shock and fork will make a much bigger impact on your riding then the pivot position.

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