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  1. #1
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    Moots vs Motobecane

    So I was originally going to buy a new ti bike and I was leaning towards a Moots. I saw the motobecane bikes that are priced great but I don't know much about the frame. If I am looking at buying a ti hardtail will I notice a difference between the two? I know Moots has the great rep but is that worth the extra cash? I'm sure I'll hear some harsh answers from loyal Moots owners but I would like to know if there is a big difference in the build quality.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Why not just ask what's the difference between a Royals Royce and a Cadillac?

  3. #3
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    The both have 4 wheels and a steering wheel and have gas burning engines. So what's the difference?

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    Porsche and a Camaro IROC would be better. Both have power, both are sort of tight, one is better tailored to its purpose, one is brutish and clunky.

  5. #5
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    You'll have to sort through my tomfoolery and such, but here's my blogpost about my MOOTS factory tour:

    http://teamdicky.blogspot.com/2009/0...tory-tour.html



    Last edited by teamdicky; 08-11-2009 at 08:18 AM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava
    Why not just ask what's the difference between a Royals Royce and a Cadillac?
    WTF is a Royals Royce?
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  7. #7
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    So I am scrolling to a forum towards the bottom and happen by this thread...Moots Vs. Motobecane... I had to open it just to see if it was serious. Ti... Shmi right - same thing.

    Good one.
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  8. #8
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    how funny........all of you have gave a comparison but no one has said what the real difference is. I know the the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Cadillac and I can also explain those differences to someone who wants to know. I asked what I thought would be a simple answer but no one has stepped up to answer it....all they say is "It's a Moots.....it's just better" and that doesn't justify $4,000. I just ordered a Superfly 100 and just went with carbon.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcrawford316
    how funny........all of you have gave a comparison but no one has said what the real difference is. I know the the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Cadillac and I can also explain those differences to someone who wants to know. I asked what I thought would be a simple answer but no one has stepped up to answer it....all they say is "It's a Moots.....it's just better" and that doesn't justify $4,000. I just ordered a Superfly 100 and just went with carbon.
    Moots is not an inexpensive brand and they even boast that on their own website. Leaving the custom bikes out of the equation every bike is hand built, each tube for each frame size is a specific diameter and wall thickness. This equals a ride quality that is very different from your every day out of the box frame. You can see the attention to detail in the welds and the finish work.

    Motobecane is an old name brought back to like as a price oriented line of bikes, which I must say they do very well. The Value is great, the components are unbelievable for the price... which is what is the main attraction for 99% of those who buy them. This does not make it a "bad" bike but the cost difference between an over seas made (and material), mass produced frame and a hand build in the USA with USA Ti are two very different things which incur very different costs. Of which the smart remarks were directed- nothing personal
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcrawford316
    how funny........all of you have gave a comparison but no one has said what the real difference is. I know the the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Cadillac and I can also explain those differences to someone who wants to know. I asked what I thought would be a simple answer but no one has stepped up to answer it....all they say is "It's a Moots.....it's just better" and that doesn't justify $4,000. I just ordered a Superfly 100 and just went with carbon.

    Sorry.

    Perhaps you didn't click on my link to my Moots tour.
    Here was the meat of the serious stuff you woulda missed (that was more than "It's a Moots.....it's just better":

    What I did actually bring home from the MOOTS Tour:

    I did ask a lot of questions. When we were looking at all the ti tubes I asked about the difference in quality from different ti sources (Russia, China, America). MOOTS gets their ti tubes from Haynes (here in the States), but they had a sample of a cheap ti down tube that I was able to look at. Normally you (the consumer) don't get to look down the inside of a tube, but I did. Looking down the inside of a cheap ti tube you can see lots of wavy weird **** going on. I can imagine (in my very non-expert opinion) that the wavy tube is pretty inconsistent in quality, and when compared to the Haynes ti it just looked scary. The Haynes down tube looked like shotgun barrel, smooth, geometrically perfect... just neat-o.

    There are a lot of steps in the MOOTS process of making frames. They don't just measure the tubes, cut and miter them, and take a welding rod to them. There were many in between steps, steps I had hoped to remember when I would get around to writing this, but alas I took no notes and retained very little information in my head. Along the way as we followed the process from start to finish I would ask "Is this a step that another company could skip in the name of saving a few dollars and keeping costs down?" The usual answer was "yes". MOOTS really sweats the details when it comes to getting a perfect miter, super clean surfaces to work with, double pass welds, QC checks all over the place, just meticulous methods all over the place and a staff that has been around for a long time. It was hard to find an employee that hadn't been with MOOTS for more than a decade. I felt like I had a greater appreciation of what makes the difference between a $1,700 ti frame and a $3,000 ti frame. Sure, some of it is materials related, some of it is having the proper tools to do a thorough job, but the biggest cost and most important thing seems to be time.
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  11. #11
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    Really very interesting to see some of the operation at Moots! I have been considering Moots myself. Thanks for sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    I got to see what sets MOOTS apart from the likes of Motobecane. Lots of corners get cut when making a cheap ti frame.
    As a Motobecane Fly Team Ti rider, I would be also interested to get your first-hand insider-info on the Motobecane Ti production, especially as I understand it's in Taiwan (or even Japan, I've heard some say).

    I've also heard that Ti is one of those metals that either works or it doesn't - if it's cheap, it won't hold, or won't even weld right off the line. Which goes hand-in-hand with what I've heard is involved with the technical capability required to work with Ti in the first place - if you don't know what you're doing, you're just not going to be able make two pieces of Ti stick to each other.

    Really looking forward to seeing those factory pics of the Motobecane Ti mfr - I hear a lot of those overseas factories are actually technological marvels, and would find it very curious to see them letting that capital and human/skill investment go to waste on such "cheap" frames. But I'm always up for being educated, especially from someone who's able to make comparisons drawn from first-hand, on-the-factory-floor experience at each of the mfr'ing facilities at question.

    TIA!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim FtCO
    Really very interesting to see some of the operation at Moots! I have been considering Moots myself. Thanks for sharing.



    As a Motobecane Fly Team Ti rider, I would be also interested to get your first-hand insider-info on the Motobecane Ti production, especially as I understand it's in Taiwan (or even Japan, I've heard some say).

    I've also heard that Ti is one of those metals that either works or it doesn't - if it's cheap, it won't hold, or won't even weld right off the line. Which goes hand-in-hand with what I've heard is involved with the technical capability required to work with Ti in the first place - if you don't know what you're doing, you're just not going to be able make two pieces of Ti stick to each other.

    Really looking forward to seeing those factory pics of the Motobecane Ti mfr - I hear a lot of those overseas factories are actually technological marvels, and would find it very curious to see them letting that capital and human/skill investment go to waste on such "cheap" frames. But I'm always up for being educated, especially from someone who's able to make comparisons drawn from first-hand, on-the-factory-floor experience at each of the mfr'ing facilities at question.

    TIA!
    Honestly, you have me there.

    Well played.

    But to be blunt, I believe there has to be some corner cutting to make a frame and sell it for less than half the cost. Quality materials alone would eat up a huge portion of a @ bike selling at a price point that comes close to being a hard profit on the parts group alone:

    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/..._TeamTI_29.htm

    But like I said, your point is well made, and perhaps I generalized and went outta my paygrade. I'll edit my previous post. I should not be making assumptions.
    Last edited by teamdicky; 08-11-2009 at 09:06 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    Honestly, you have me there.

    Well played.

    But to be blunt, I believe there has to be some corner cutting to make a frame and sell it for less than half the cost. Quality materials alone would eat up a huge portion of a @ bike selling at a price point that comes close to be a hard profit on the parts group alone:

    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/..._TeamTI_29.htm

    But like I said, your point is well made, and perhaps I generalized and went outta my paygrade. I'll edit my previous post. I should not be making assumptions.
    To be blunt, you are incorrect in the area of corner cutting to make the Motobecane Ti frames. And I wish we could get more, so that more people would understand the quality and value of these bikes {even if they can not understand the pricing}

    Once you see one in person you will know what I mean. Once you ride a Moto Ti you will agree it is the best deal in Ti.

    that said: MOOTS are great and they have a special place in the market
    But assuming lower price means lower quality is a major logical error, which does not account for many many factors in pricing. Remember, that every magazine that has tested a Moto Ti bike has been impressed to the point of raving about the frames [going as far as calling the framework stunning]. And buyers who posted about the bikes seem to have the same opinion.

    There is a reasons I price these bikes so low and a reason we sell out so quick. I can tell you - the reasons have nothing to do with cutting corners on frames {and BTW I pay 3 times as much for these frames as I pay for high-grade carbon frames}

    I like Ti and I hope that Moots, Motobecane, and all other quality Ti suppliers see nothing but increasing sales I think the more happy cyclists there are on Ti bikes, the more we will see cyclists wanting to use Ti framed bikes.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    To be blunt, you are incorrect in the area of corner cutting to make the Motobecane Ti frames. And I wish we could get more, so that more people would understand the quality and value of these bikes {even if they can not understand the pricing}

    Once you see one in person you will know what I mean. Once you ride a Moto Ti you will agree it is the best deal in Ti.

    that said: MOOTS are great and they have a special place in the market
    But assuming lower price means lower quality is a major logical error, which does not account for many many factors in pricing. Remember, that every magazine that has tested a Moto Ti bike has been impressed to the point of raving about the frames [going as far as calling the framework stunning]. And buyers who posted about the bikes seem to have the same opinion.

    There is a reasons I price these bikes so low and a reason we sell out so quick. I can tell you - the reasons have nothing to do with cutting corners on frames {and BTW I pay 3 times as much for these frames as I pay for high-grade carbon frames}

    I like Ti and I hope that Moots, Motobecane, and all other quality Ti suppliers see nothing but increasing sales I think the more happy cyclists there are on Ti bikes, the more we will see cyclists wanting to use Ti framed bikes.
    Mike,
    In the past I have owned an Aluminum Moto 29er frame my buddy owns an aluminum Fly 9357 complete bike, and just ordered a Ti framed road bike. The two MTB are values far beyond most anything else out there and the frames apear to be well made. I am not educated in frame fabrication etc... but am a bit of a tech head so generally do way too much research and backround on anything I am in to- truely and addict. I doubt anyone who has actually seen/ridden would be able to logically say the frames were not well made especially compared to the price. This said not all aluminum, titanium, steel frames that look good have the same ride quality- someting hard to quatify.

    I would really like to know if you could give a bit of insight into the tubes as far as dia. and wall thickness on the Moto ti frames- do these change per bike size and how or who tests it to find out if it has benefitial ride characteristics vs strength/weight? I am not saying this to be smart but I do think it does have a bearing on cost for sure, along with the difference of hand made of all US materials VS mass produced of unspecified (not always worse...) materials.

    All in all I would not expect a Motobecane and a moots to be the same, ride the same or cost the same- I think you would agree it is not an apples to apples comparison- but I can also see where the OP is comming from, it would be nice to have valid and concrete information and I would think you would be in a position to offer a good amount of info seeing as you know more about the ti motos than just about anyone I can think of...
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  15. #15
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    Motobecane isn't junk but compared to the handmade Moots frame (or a CS frame) ...they sort of are. A Taurus revolver works just fine but pull out a Colt Anaconda and there you go. Sticking to the gun analogies, a base Springfield 1911 shoots quite well but use a Les Baer or Ed Brown and ponder the differences Am I sticking to the gun thing too much...not sure why. Should I move to cars?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Motobecane isn't junk but compared to the handmade Moots frame (or a CS frame) ...they sort of are. A Taurus revolver works just fine but pull out a Colt Anaconda and there you go. Sticking to the gun analogies, a base Springfield 1911 shoots quite well but use a Les Baer or Ed Brown and ponder the differences Am I sticking to the gun thing too much...not sure why. Should I move to cars?
    YES, please move to cars
    we all shot clay at our house and these guns do not compute

    But even in cars there is no good comparison

    Our Ti frames are top quality and the best 'production' Ti that I can find
    But Moots is custom and very very good quality
    I do not think anyone would say that either would last longer and ride is totally personal
    However, it is not too easy to compare a frame that costs more than we sell a complete bike for.

    Bottom line: my opinion:
    You have no budget - Moots is great
    You have a budget - no better Ti deal than a Motobecane

  17. #17
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    Good to know Motobecane uses double-pass welding.
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Meh - all titanium is the same, right?
    http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tab...niumgrades.htm
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    And knowing those Taiwanese factory workers love the sport of mountain biking as much as the Moots boys.... well, that just warms my heart.
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  20. #20
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    If I send my measurements and riding style in for suggestions on the correct frame dimensions for my custom Motobecane, about how long will it take to get built?
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Sure, how about a Benelli Vinci versus a Mossberg 835? You may relate to that though the Mossberg is a no-frills workhorse so it has a lot going for it.

    I may agree with your bottom line but I'd like to know where these frames are made. If xacd or a setup similar to that, I'd still consider it junk.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    If I send my measurements and riding style in for suggestions on the correct frame dimensions for my custom Motobecane, about how long will it take to get built?

    A long time
    I am not into the custom frame business at this time {although I used to do a lot of it}

    In time, custom built Ti Motobecanes maybe available - that is a good idea; I will start looking into it. But until we can supply all the demand on production versions, there is no push to get into custom frames

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Sure, how about a Benelli Vinci versus a Mossberg 835? You may relate to that though the Mossberg is a no-frills workhorse so it has a lot going for it.

    I may agree with your bottom line but I'd like to know where these frames are made. If xacd or a setup similar to that, I'd still consider it junk.

    All Motobecanes are made in Taiwan
    I know lots of companies use China; but no Motobecanes from China yet. If we do - that would be like Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc - entry bikes from Chna - upper end from Taiwan.

    Of course, I know Cannondale, Specialized, Scott, etc, etc use CF frames from China
    However, I am not willing to do Ti frames from China at this time

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    Good to know Motobecane uses double-pass welding.
    Please enlighten us as to why any Ti frames that aren't double-pass welded would be intrinsically inferior.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    Meh - all titanium is the same, right?
    http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tab...niumgrades.htm
    What grade is used on Motobecanes? On Moots? And what is the effective difference?

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