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  1. #1
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    Moots vs Motobecane

    So I was originally going to buy a new ti bike and I was leaning towards a Moots. I saw the motobecane bikes that are priced great but I don't know much about the frame. If I am looking at buying a ti hardtail will I notice a difference between the two? I know Moots has the great rep but is that worth the extra cash? I'm sure I'll hear some harsh answers from loyal Moots owners but I would like to know if there is a big difference in the build quality.

    Thanks!

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    Why not just ask what's the difference between a Royals Royce and a Cadillac?

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    The both have 4 wheels and a steering wheel and have gas burning engines. So what's the difference?

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    Porsche and a Camaro IROC would be better. Both have power, both are sort of tight, one is better tailored to its purpose, one is brutish and clunky.

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    You'll have to sort through my tomfoolery and such, but here's my blogpost about my MOOTS factory tour:

    http://teamdicky.blogspot.com/2009/0...tory-tour.html



    Last edited by teamdicky; 08-11-2009 at 08:18 AM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava
    Why not just ask what's the difference between a Royals Royce and a Cadillac?
    WTF is a Royals Royce?

  7. #7
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    So I am scrolling to a forum towards the bottom and happen by this thread...Moots Vs. Motobecane... I had to open it just to see if it was serious. Ti... Shmi right - same thing.

    Good one.
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  8. #8
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    how funny........all of you have gave a comparison but no one has said what the real difference is. I know the the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Cadillac and I can also explain those differences to someone who wants to know. I asked what I thought would be a simple answer but no one has stepped up to answer it....all they say is "It's a Moots.....it's just better" and that doesn't justify $4,000. I just ordered a Superfly 100 and just went with carbon.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcrawford316
    how funny........all of you have gave a comparison but no one has said what the real difference is. I know the the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Cadillac and I can also explain those differences to someone who wants to know. I asked what I thought would be a simple answer but no one has stepped up to answer it....all they say is "It's a Moots.....it's just better" and that doesn't justify $4,000. I just ordered a Superfly 100 and just went with carbon.
    Moots is not an inexpensive brand and they even boast that on their own website. Leaving the custom bikes out of the equation every bike is hand built, each tube for each frame size is a specific diameter and wall thickness. This equals a ride quality that is very different from your every day out of the box frame. You can see the attention to detail in the welds and the finish work.

    Motobecane is an old name brought back to like as a price oriented line of bikes, which I must say they do very well. The Value is great, the components are unbelievable for the price... which is what is the main attraction for 99% of those who buy them. This does not make it a "bad" bike but the cost difference between an over seas made (and material), mass produced frame and a hand build in the USA with USA Ti are two very different things which incur very different costs. Of which the smart remarks were directed- nothing personal
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcrawford316
    how funny........all of you have gave a comparison but no one has said what the real difference is. I know the the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Cadillac and I can also explain those differences to someone who wants to know. I asked what I thought would be a simple answer but no one has stepped up to answer it....all they say is "It's a Moots.....it's just better" and that doesn't justify $4,000. I just ordered a Superfly 100 and just went with carbon.

    Sorry.

    Perhaps you didn't click on my link to my Moots tour.
    Here was the meat of the serious stuff you woulda missed (that was more than "It's a Moots.....it's just better":

    What I did actually bring home from the MOOTS Tour:

    I did ask a lot of questions. When we were looking at all the ti tubes I asked about the difference in quality from different ti sources (Russia, China, America). MOOTS gets their ti tubes from Haynes (here in the States), but they had a sample of a cheap ti down tube that I was able to look at. Normally you (the consumer) don't get to look down the inside of a tube, but I did. Looking down the inside of a cheap ti tube you can see lots of wavy weird **** going on. I can imagine (in my very non-expert opinion) that the wavy tube is pretty inconsistent in quality, and when compared to the Haynes ti it just looked scary. The Haynes down tube looked like shotgun barrel, smooth, geometrically perfect... just neat-o.

    There are a lot of steps in the MOOTS process of making frames. They don't just measure the tubes, cut and miter them, and take a welding rod to them. There were many in between steps, steps I had hoped to remember when I would get around to writing this, but alas I took no notes and retained very little information in my head. Along the way as we followed the process from start to finish I would ask "Is this a step that another company could skip in the name of saving a few dollars and keeping costs down?" The usual answer was "yes". MOOTS really sweats the details when it comes to getting a perfect miter, super clean surfaces to work with, double pass welds, QC checks all over the place, just meticulous methods all over the place and a staff that has been around for a long time. It was hard to find an employee that hadn't been with MOOTS for more than a decade. I felt like I had a greater appreciation of what makes the difference between a $1,700 ti frame and a $3,000 ti frame. Sure, some of it is materials related, some of it is having the proper tools to do a thorough job, but the biggest cost and most important thing seems to be time.
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  11. #11
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    Really very interesting to see some of the operation at Moots! I have been considering Moots myself. Thanks for sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    I got to see what sets MOOTS apart from the likes of Motobecane. Lots of corners get cut when making a cheap ti frame.
    As a Motobecane Fly Team Ti rider, I would be also interested to get your first-hand insider-info on the Motobecane Ti production, especially as I understand it's in Taiwan (or even Japan, I've heard some say).

    I've also heard that Ti is one of those metals that either works or it doesn't - if it's cheap, it won't hold, or won't even weld right off the line. Which goes hand-in-hand with what I've heard is involved with the technical capability required to work with Ti in the first place - if you don't know what you're doing, you're just not going to be able make two pieces of Ti stick to each other.

    Really looking forward to seeing those factory pics of the Motobecane Ti mfr - I hear a lot of those overseas factories are actually technological marvels, and would find it very curious to see them letting that capital and human/skill investment go to waste on such "cheap" frames. But I'm always up for being educated, especially from someone who's able to make comparisons drawn from first-hand, on-the-factory-floor experience at each of the mfr'ing facilities at question.

    TIA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim FtCO
    Really very interesting to see some of the operation at Moots! I have been considering Moots myself. Thanks for sharing.



    As a Motobecane Fly Team Ti rider, I would be also interested to get your first-hand insider-info on the Motobecane Ti production, especially as I understand it's in Taiwan (or even Japan, I've heard some say).

    I've also heard that Ti is one of those metals that either works or it doesn't - if it's cheap, it won't hold, or won't even weld right off the line. Which goes hand-in-hand with what I've heard is involved with the technical capability required to work with Ti in the first place - if you don't know what you're doing, you're just not going to be able make two pieces of Ti stick to each other.

    Really looking forward to seeing those factory pics of the Motobecane Ti mfr - I hear a lot of those overseas factories are actually technological marvels, and would find it very curious to see them letting that capital and human/skill investment go to waste on such "cheap" frames. But I'm always up for being educated, especially from someone who's able to make comparisons drawn from first-hand, on-the-factory-floor experience at each of the mfr'ing facilities at question.

    TIA!
    Honestly, you have me there.

    Well played.

    But to be blunt, I believe there has to be some corner cutting to make a frame and sell it for less than half the cost. Quality materials alone would eat up a huge portion of a @ bike selling at a price point that comes close to being a hard profit on the parts group alone:

    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/..._TeamTI_29.htm

    But like I said, your point is well made, and perhaps I generalized and went outta my paygrade. I'll edit my previous post. I should not be making assumptions.
    Last edited by teamdicky; 08-11-2009 at 09:06 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    Honestly, you have me there.

    Well played.

    But to be blunt, I believe there has to be some corner cutting to make a frame and sell it for less than half the cost. Quality materials alone would eat up a huge portion of a @ bike selling at a price point that comes close to be a hard profit on the parts group alone:

    http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/..._TeamTI_29.htm

    But like I said, your point is well made, and perhaps I generalized and went outta my paygrade. I'll edit my previous post. I should not be making assumptions.
    To be blunt, you are incorrect in the area of corner cutting to make the Motobecane Ti frames. And I wish we could get more, so that more people would understand the quality and value of these bikes {even if they can not understand the pricing}

    Once you see one in person you will know what I mean. Once you ride a Moto Ti you will agree it is the best deal in Ti.

    that said: MOOTS are great and they have a special place in the market
    But assuming lower price means lower quality is a major logical error, which does not account for many many factors in pricing. Remember, that every magazine that has tested a Moto Ti bike has been impressed to the point of raving about the frames [going as far as calling the framework stunning]. And buyers who posted about the bikes seem to have the same opinion.

    There is a reasons I price these bikes so low and a reason we sell out so quick. I can tell you - the reasons have nothing to do with cutting corners on frames {and BTW I pay 3 times as much for these frames as I pay for high-grade carbon frames}

    I like Ti and I hope that Moots, Motobecane, and all other quality Ti suppliers see nothing but increasing sales I think the more happy cyclists there are on Ti bikes, the more we will see cyclists wanting to use Ti framed bikes.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    To be blunt, you are incorrect in the area of corner cutting to make the Motobecane Ti frames. And I wish we could get more, so that more people would understand the quality and value of these bikes {even if they can not understand the pricing}

    Once you see one in person you will know what I mean. Once you ride a Moto Ti you will agree it is the best deal in Ti.

    that said: MOOTS are great and they have a special place in the market
    But assuming lower price means lower quality is a major logical error, which does not account for many many factors in pricing. Remember, that every magazine that has tested a Moto Ti bike has been impressed to the point of raving about the frames [going as far as calling the framework stunning]. And buyers who posted about the bikes seem to have the same opinion.

    There is a reasons I price these bikes so low and a reason we sell out so quick. I can tell you - the reasons have nothing to do with cutting corners on frames {and BTW I pay 3 times as much for these frames as I pay for high-grade carbon frames}

    I like Ti and I hope that Moots, Motobecane, and all other quality Ti suppliers see nothing but increasing sales I think the more happy cyclists there are on Ti bikes, the more we will see cyclists wanting to use Ti framed bikes.
    Mike,
    In the past I have owned an Aluminum Moto 29er frame my buddy owns an aluminum Fly 9357 complete bike, and just ordered a Ti framed road bike. The two MTB are values far beyond most anything else out there and the frames apear to be well made. I am not educated in frame fabrication etc... but am a bit of a tech head so generally do way too much research and backround on anything I am in to- truely and addict. I doubt anyone who has actually seen/ridden would be able to logically say the frames were not well made especially compared to the price. This said not all aluminum, titanium, steel frames that look good have the same ride quality- someting hard to quatify.

    I would really like to know if you could give a bit of insight into the tubes as far as dia. and wall thickness on the Moto ti frames- do these change per bike size and how or who tests it to find out if it has benefitial ride characteristics vs strength/weight? I am not saying this to be smart but I do think it does have a bearing on cost for sure, along with the difference of hand made of all US materials VS mass produced of unspecified (not always worse...) materials.

    All in all I would not expect a Motobecane and a moots to be the same, ride the same or cost the same- I think you would agree it is not an apples to apples comparison- but I can also see where the OP is comming from, it would be nice to have valid and concrete information and I would think you would be in a position to offer a good amount of info seeing as you know more about the ti motos than just about anyone I can think of...
    I Just wish I could ride more!


  15. #15
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    Motobecane isn't junk but compared to the handmade Moots frame (or a CS frame) ...they sort of are. A Taurus revolver works just fine but pull out a Colt Anaconda and there you go. Sticking to the gun analogies, a base Springfield 1911 shoots quite well but use a Les Baer or Ed Brown and ponder the differences Am I sticking to the gun thing too much...not sure why. Should I move to cars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Motobecane isn't junk but compared to the handmade Moots frame (or a CS frame) ...they sort of are. A Taurus revolver works just fine but pull out a Colt Anaconda and there you go. Sticking to the gun analogies, a base Springfield 1911 shoots quite well but use a Les Baer or Ed Brown and ponder the differences Am I sticking to the gun thing too much...not sure why. Should I move to cars?
    YES, please move to cars
    we all shot clay at our house and these guns do not compute

    But even in cars there is no good comparison

    Our Ti frames are top quality and the best 'production' Ti that I can find
    But Moots is custom and very very good quality
    I do not think anyone would say that either would last longer and ride is totally personal
    However, it is not too easy to compare a frame that costs more than we sell a complete bike for.

    Bottom line: my opinion:
    You have no budget - Moots is great
    You have a budget - no better Ti deal than a Motobecane

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    Good to know Motobecane uses double-pass welding.
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Meh - all titanium is the same, right?
    http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tab...niumgrades.htm
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    And knowing those Taiwanese factory workers love the sport of mountain biking as much as the Moots boys.... well, that just warms my heart.
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    If I send my measurements and riding style in for suggestions on the correct frame dimensions for my custom Motobecane, about how long will it take to get built?
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Sure, how about a Benelli Vinci versus a Mossberg 835? You may relate to that though the Mossberg is a no-frills workhorse so it has a lot going for it.

    I may agree with your bottom line but I'd like to know where these frames are made. If xacd or a setup similar to that, I'd still consider it junk.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    If I send my measurements and riding style in for suggestions on the correct frame dimensions for my custom Motobecane, about how long will it take to get built?

    A long time
    I am not into the custom frame business at this time {although I used to do a lot of it}

    In time, custom built Ti Motobecanes maybe available - that is a good idea; I will start looking into it. But until we can supply all the demand on production versions, there is no push to get into custom frames

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Sure, how about a Benelli Vinci versus a Mossberg 835? You may relate to that though the Mossberg is a no-frills workhorse so it has a lot going for it.

    I may agree with your bottom line but I'd like to know where these frames are made. If xacd or a setup similar to that, I'd still consider it junk.

    All Motobecanes are made in Taiwan
    I know lots of companies use China; but no Motobecanes from China yet. If we do - that would be like Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc - entry bikes from Chna - upper end from Taiwan.

    Of course, I know Cannondale, Specialized, Scott, etc, etc use CF frames from China
    However, I am not willing to do Ti frames from China at this time

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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    Good to know Motobecane uses double-pass welding.
    Please enlighten us as to why any Ti frames that aren't double-pass welded would be intrinsically inferior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    Meh - all titanium is the same, right?
    http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tab...niumgrades.htm
    What grade is used on Motobecanes? On Moots? And what is the effective difference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    And knowing those Taiwanese factory workers love the sport of mountain biking as much as the Moots boys.... well, that just warms my heart.
    It also warms my heart that every aerospace engineer and physicist who's designed an airplane or rocket isn't also a pilot or astronaut him/herself.

    How do you know so much about who works at Taiwanese factories and whether or not they have any love of the sport of mountain biking?

    Is every single soul at Moots a die-hard MTB fanatic?

    Is every single soul at the Motobecane factory(ies) not?

    If so, so what?

    If not, so what?

    By your reasoning, should I then expect that Julien Absalon, JHK, Georgia Gould, or Heather Irmiger would, given a welder in hand, make better frames above any Taiwanese or even Moots craftsman?
    Last edited by Jim FtCO; 08-12-2009 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    If I send my measurements and riding style in for suggestions on the correct frame dimensions for my custom Motobecane, about how long will it take to get built?
    Motobecane is not in the custom business, and I fail to see how that is indicative of any fundamental inferiority of their product or failure of their business model.

    With all due respect, the retorts to the rhetoric raised by your posts aren't exactly working to meaningfully distinguish Moots above Motobecane as I presume you're attempting to do.

    Both Moots and Motobecane sell excellent product and ultimately serve each other by mutually supporting the Ti (bicycle frame) industry as a whole.

  28. #28
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    Good for you- some of the frames made there are scary.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    All Motobecanes are made in Taiwan
    I know lots of companies use China; but no Motobecanes from China yet. If we do - that would be like Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc - entry bikes from Chna - upper end from Taiwan.

    Of course, I know Cannondale, Specialized, Scott, etc, etc use CF frames from China
    However, I am not willing to do Ti frames from China at this time

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueMountain
    Good for you- some of the frames made there are scary.
    "Chinese factories" produce according to specifications given to them by their customers.

    So however "scary" or not any frames fundamentally are is a matter of specification and acceptance by the (American/European) importer and retailer, to whom you really should be looking for accountability with respect to the quality and selection of the product they're goading you to buy.

    If a factory simply isn't up to snuff to produce to a given standard, is it the factory's fault that its customer confirms an order, accepts, and sells that factory's production anyway?

    The higher-end in production you go, the less it behooves any factory to overstep its true production capabilities.

    Certainly as in any industry in any country there are fly-by-night operations.

    However, given the highly competitive product realm that we're talking about, the rats get sniffed out and put out of business pretty quickly, if they've even had a chance.

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    Nah, specification does not control quality/source of tubing, quality of welding, and quality of frame alignment (or alignment tables). Chinese factory xacd, for example, is pretty big but their quality is very iffy. Stay away!

    Taiwan manufacturing has a better reputation (and I'd buy one) though I'd still prefer to pay more and get a US-made Ti frame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim FtCO
    Please enlighten us as to why any Ti frames that aren't double-pass welded would be intrinsically inferior.
    ok.

    Oxygen introduced into the titanium during welding makes for weaker welds. (and the fumes are toxic as well but that's not the point of my post.) So, if bigger welds are laid, there is a greater probability that oxygen is introduced.

    Also, the size of the beads make it harder to inspect each weld.

    Also (as I'm sure you know), any metal pieces being welded together expand and contract as they're heated and cooled. A smaller initial weld reduces the likelihood that the welding pushes or pulls on each piece and keeps it straighter.

    I'll get to your other questions in a sec. Lemme wipe and flush first.
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim FtCO
    What grade is used on Motobecanes? On Moots? And what is the effective difference?
    If you asked each manufacturer, they'll probably both tell you that they use Grade 5 Titanium. On paper, there is no difference but I'm willing to bet my left nut the quality of the titanium is different even if they're both Grade 5.
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim FtCO
    It also warms my heart that every aerospace engineer and physicist who's designed an airplane or rocket isn't also a pilot or astronaut him/herself.

    How do you know so much about who works at Taiwanese factories and whether or not they have any love of the sport of mountain biking?

    Is every single soul at Moots a die-hard MTB fanatic?

    Is every single soul at the Motobecane factory(ies) not?

    If so, so what?

    If not, so what?

    By your reasoning, should I then expect that Julien Absalon, JHK, Georgia Gould, or Heather Irmiger would, given a welder in hand, make better frames above any Taiwanese or even Moots craftsman?
    There's book smarts and real-world smarts. Rocket scientists, engineers, physicists are "book smart" - your typical absent-minded professor. Yes, he's qualified to build the rocket. No, he's not qualified to fly it.

    Getting back to the topic at hand - all I can say is "Happy bees make sweeter honey". I can't imagine the working conditions at the Motobecane plant in Taiwan is anything like that in Colorado, U. S. of A.
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim FtCO
    Motobecane is not in the custom business, and I fail to see how that is indicative of any fundamental inferiority of their product or failure of their business model.
    Uh - yeah, I know they're not in the custom business. It was a joke. You fail to see the connection between the quality of their product and their business model because they're completely unrelated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim FtCO
    With all due respect, the retorts to the rhetoric raised by your posts aren't exactly working to meaningfully distinguish Moots above Motobecane as I presume you're attempting to do.
    OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim FtCO
    Both Moots and Motobecane sell excellent product and ultimately serve each other by mutually supporting the Ti (bicycle frame) industry as a whole.
    Um - yeah. Let's all hold hands and sing Kum-by-yah now.
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    ok.

    Oxygen introduced into the titanium during welding makes for weaker welds. (and the fumes are toxic as well but that's not the point of my post.) So, if bigger welds are laid, there is a greater probability that oxygen is introduced.

    Also, the size of the beads make it harder to inspect each weld.

    Also (as I'm sure you know), any metal pieces being welded together expand and contract as they're heated and cooled. A smaller initial weld reduces the likelihood that the welding pushes or pulls on each piece and keeps it straighter.
    Back to the point: Do you know what, specifically, the welding processes are that Motobecane uses (or doesn't use) in their fabrication, particularly those that make Motobecane inherently inferior as you imply?
    Last edited by Jim FtCO; 08-13-2009 at 03:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    If you asked each manufacturer, they'll probably both tell you...
    Your "probably's" are precisely the crux of my challenges to you on what you know *factually* about the materials and processes used in Motobecane's fabrication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    There's book smarts and real-world smarts. Rocket scientists, engineers, physicists are "book smart" - your typical absent-minded professor. Yes, he's qualified to build the rocket. No, he's not qualified to fly it.
    You fail to grasp the fallacy of your own initial position. I'm abandoning further discussion of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by motoenth
    Getting back to the topic at hand - all I can say is "Happy bees make sweeter honey". I can't imagine the working conditions at the Motobecane plant in Taiwan is anything like that in Colorado, U. S. of A.
    Indeed, you can't imagine, precisely because you've never been to the factories producing for Motobecane in Taiwan, R of C... So, as is my overriding point, why do you indict something about which you have no factual knowledge?
    Last edited by Jim FtCO; 08-13-2009 at 03:39 PM.

  38. #38
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    Last edited by Jim FtCO; 08-13-2009 at 03:38 PM.

  39. #39
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    Jimmy, Jimbo, Jim-jiminy..... I can belabor the point all you want but you and I both know that you think you're right and I think I'm right. I'm cool with that. You're doing an excellent job defending your ride - your sponsor should be proud.

    You keep believing that a Motobecane and Moots produce the same quality product and you'll probably continued to be sponsored.

    Good luck in all you do
    Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  40. #40
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    I'll just voice in the Moots is an American company with American workers in America building great bikes for the world. The owner lives in Telluride and is an avid biker, the workers live here in STEAMBAOT SPRINGS, COLORADO! I don't belive that you can say any of that about your Motorbacane. You may be a big beliver in the "World Economy" but one of the reasons the Motorbacane can produce a frame cheaper than Moots is that the skilled labor needed is 1/3 the price overseas than it is here in Steamboat. If you want to keep sending your jobs and money to the far east, go right ahead, I get kind of pissy when "locals" here in Steamboat go and buy a Spanish Orbea rather than pay their friend and neighbors to build them a bike. The Moots crew is out building trails, putting on races, and spending their hard earned money back into the local economy. Support your local economy and it helps your neighbors and friends, send it overseas and the next time you see that money is when they lend it back to us cover our national debt.

    gcrawford- Save the parts off that Superfly, when the carbon fiber breaks in a few years, they'll fit nicly on a Moots.

  41. #41
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    If I could afford a Moots and bought a Motobecane, I'd probably be struck by lighting on a high-alpine ride so I'd have to stick with Moots or a Kent Ericksen..it's a life and death thing!

  42. #42
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    Moots - Dream bikes that are beautifully hand crafted in Colorado.

    Motobacon - Fast piece of pork.

  43. #43
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    I've owned an American Made 3Al / 2.5V aerospace grade titanium single pass welded and the welds failed several times. As did the rear end welds on 2 of my friends ti full sup rear triangles. 8 friends who owned similar frames from a different American Made ti company suffered catastrophic failures on their dropout welds (mostly due to design and the company's want to not change the design). So the value to me is not where they are made more than does the company go that extra step to do it better vs cheaper/faster?

    I saved and I bought a Moots. Full disclosure, I am now a Moots Grassroots rider, but I paid for my frame. It's a phenomenal frame and the best riding ti frame I've owned. I know nothing of the Motobecane frame and have no opinion other than if I were wanting a ti frame, I would save up and get the frame I want rather than a frame that costs less.

    That doesn't say Motobecane (or Lynskey/On-one/Vassago - all cheaper priced ti frames) isn't worth buying, it's just not what I want to spend my money on. I bought Moots for a lifestyle/lifetime bike. That's why I saved and spent the money. If I were just wanting a ti ride and looking to keep under a specific budget, my decision might have been different. However, my Moots build had a very limited budget and it's built with components that reflect that. To each his own.

    To answer gcrawford's question: I like the dropout design better on the Moots (though the Motobecane seem to use the flanged hoods too which helps with rear end stiffness), I prefer the way a wishbone seat stay design rides and climbs better than the traditional A shaped ones, the continuous diameter chainstays make sprinting/climbing feel like all energy is directly coming out the rear wheel, no noodly flexy feeling like my other ti bikes (no chain pop or clicking either with same cranks and wheels that were on the other ti ride). I've never been a "ooh sexy weld" kinda guy, especially when I've had sexy welds fail before, but they do look amazing.

  44. #44
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    Interesting thread, can't help but to add some of my experiences. I am working for a global manufacturing company and i run or used to run large scale manufacturing in different places, U.S., Europe as well as 3rd world countries:

    - Expect labor cost in emerging countries like Taiwan to be 5-10 times lower than in the U.S. Besides labor (not just the regular wages, but also all the social benefits make us so expensive), expect most other cost be far, far lower as well (energy, suppliers, building the plant etc.). China should be even cheaper.
    - Many of these plants and machinery are new, thanks to the strong economic growth in these countries. I remember having better shower rooms and cantina food in "emerging markets" plants than in the ones I used to run in the U.S. or Europe.
    - People in these countries are often very motivated, hungry to develop and educate themselfes whereas we are fat, lazy and busy with our to a high degree materialistic "civilization". They do live at 10-20% of what we earn, but workers in a Taiwan plant will have all their basic needs covered and likely be in average as happy as a U.S. family. Don't forget that with growing wealth the expectations will growth at least with the same speed (I personally believe even faster).
    - To all the frustrated guys: Get over it, you won't stop the globalization nor anybody else will. And in the very end it will all of us just make fatter and lazier anyhow.

    All reasons to give up on companies like moots? Not at all, a good team of committed people will always be able to accomplish something exceptional - no matter where they are. As somebody with a strong manufacturing background I must admit that the Moots welds are just stunning - no matter where produced. And in combination with good customer service and R&D as well as maybe using some of the opportunities of globalization (long shipping from Taiwan, limited flexibility of high volume machinery etc.) they will always have a nice niche in the market.

    After working on site in emerging markets I am not worried about the U.S. economy or the Europeans at all anymore. We have such a competitive advantage in terms in culture that the other countries will naver catch up. To stay in the region, you will never have a productivity on the level of the U.S. in Mexico or anywhere else in Latin America. The Chinese will never have the R&D capacity of the Germans etc. etc.

    So, let's focus on our strengths ...

    I had many bad as well as great experiences with U.S. bike companies. A pretty bad one I had when I purchased a Turner Sultan frame (because it is U.S. made and all the hype around the brand), the only bike I ever purchased that was total crap. What everybody calls great "industrial design" is just basic manufacturing to me but what was the killer is the not fitting geometry and the wrong OE damper specs. Turner customer service recommended to sell the frame and enjoy the great re-sale value and so I did. Only great experiences I had with i9 and by now I am the proud owner of 4 wheelsets from i9 - and I am not done yet. Especially since a friend broke the rear achsle on his 6 month old Chris King rear hub and CK customer service told him that he has to follow a formal process to send in the wheel and have it fixed. We are talking about a retail $40 part ($5 manufacturing cost) and since we are sitting in South America my friend decided to buy the spare part, not bother with CK customer service anymore and buy an i9 wheelset as soon he gets the chance.

    Why am I posting here. I was on the way to buy a used but just 3x ridden Moots yesterday but the purchase did not work out. Instead of, I will in the next days place an order together with a friend for a Fly 29er Ti frameset and have it custom polished here in Latin America where I live right now and combine it with some airbrush (should roughly be $2000 polish + $1000 painting option with Lynskey or Moots). Alltogether the frameset will cost me about $1500 incl. Reba Race fork vs. a $6000 Moots frame partly polished and partly custom painted.

    What I like about the Moto is the GF Superfly geometry, just with 100m fork. I love my Superfly, I only purchased it over a Mamasita or a Air 9 because the dealer told me it is U.S. made. I found out right after the purchase it is Taiwan made but I love it no less.

    Owning 7 bikes and riding every day I know my stuff and what geometry I want to try next. This bike will be ridden hard and I am pretty sure I will be happy with the Moto. Also, I realized that my taste keeps changing and the place I ride my bike. The bike I want today will unlikely be the one I want in 3 years, makes it tough to justify the extra $ for the Moots.

    ...


    ...


    ...


    So, sorry for writing that much and I am not going to re-check if all I wrote here makes complete sense - I have to get out and ride my Spot Brand SS ...

    ...

    ...

    ...

    Rethinking my Ti bike decision, I may switch over to the new Air9 Carbon. I love my Rip9, the niner guys are innovative and just amazing to deal with and because of this I don't mind paying some extra money. However, Mike from Bikesdirect is doing a great job as well and deserves my money. Maybe I should better ask my wife for advice, looks like I am getting confused here and my decision process is not objective any more.

    Guess things are not Black or White and it's great we all got options!
    Last edited by hellocook; 09-06-2009 at 10:27 AM.

  45. #45
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    @hellocook: Thank you. That was quite refreshing to read. You are spot on about your observations of established Western countries in comparison emerging countries. Very real and very true in every sense. Ironic to read the stickers on 2008/2009 US designed, Asian made, Specialized frames: INNOVATE OR DIE.
    Lead actor Will of the Sun, Author Platform Pedal Shootout 820K views

  46. #46
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    I'd be interested to hear an honest ride-comparo. The Motobecane is a screaming deal but I've been dreaming about a Moots for years and years. I've had a few ti. frames (US, Taiwanese and Chinese) and I can tell a big difference in the ride of each. Of course, they aren't all carbon copies of each other but frame material doesn't necessarily completely dictate ride quality. I will say my Serotta CX bike is by far the smoothest road frame I've ever ridden (even over other ti. frames and my Indy Fab steel frame) by a long stretch.

    Anyone actually ridden both frames and willing to give a comparo?
    "I'll disintegrate over time if I expect my body to try to keep up with my mind" -BM

    Race, Rocks or Road...Just Ride

  47. #47
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    I have ridden a motobecane titanium bike. I was not the owner of that bike, but I rode it for about 3 months. It was ok. The handling was so-so and I think whoever designed it is probably taking a few stabs in the dark or shortcuts as far as geometry. Nevertheless, I would not say that this was a deal breaker.

    I would say that the rear end was a deal breaker. It was not stiff at all to the point of concern, and the dropouts were tight - the rear wheel had to be yanked out of the dropout and the dropout had to be lined with electrical tape get the wheel to track straight. This would be a deal breaker. The owner ended up moving the parts over to a production steel frame and was much happier.

    You could not pay me to ride the stock wheels that were on it.

    I've not ridden a moots, but I have never read a bad word about them. I think that the critical difference is that Bikes direct build to a price point, where as companies like moots build to a quality level.

    If you have convinced yourself that you MUST have a titanium bike, and you are only willing to spend $xx, well then I guess that bikes direct are your only option. They are still not cheap though, especially considering that you should factor in atleast $2-300 for a bike fit, servicing, a wheel true and so on that you would get if you got a bike from a bricks and mortar shop. I think that there are better deals out there for the money, no matter the frame material. You also don't get to ride it before you pay for it. A hardtail is not a hardtail.

    Put it this way: if titanium bikes are 'forever bikes' do you really want to be on a Taiwanese made out of shape, patchily constructed bike forever? IMO a well cared for bike in any material will last atleast 5 years.

    If you are going to fork out the money for a titanium bike, which I have recently done, you might as well do it properly. If I had $1700-$2000 to spend, Bikes direct would be the last people on my list.
    Last edited by C Dunlop; 11-21-2009 at 08:32 AM.

  48. #48
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    Agreed. If I wanted to build up a "cheaper" HT, I'd go with steel over this BD bike. I am building up a SS 29er HT and since I am on a budget right now, I chose an inexpensive steel frame(On One Inbred). As soon as I decide to get a nicer frame, it will be custom steel or Ti- maybe custom Ti. I'm not big into knockoffs but I have never been that way...with anything.

    Keep in mind that a cheap xacd custom Ti frame from China (individually shipped from China) is around $700. I know because I have spoken to them. A non-custom is even less. If the factory is making a profit off that price, the cost is obviously much lower. I'd guess the BD frames probably cost $300 or less each. While it may represent a great value to some based on the parts, it didn't to me. The fork is a QR and the wheels are cheap. Those are the parts I pay most of the attention to and put the most money into.

    I'm not mocking or knocking anyone who wants to buy one or already owns one; simply providing my perspective and what I know based on my opinion of value and quality.

  49. #49
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    Honestly, without getting into the whole 'steel vs. titanium vs. alloy vs. carbon' thing, I think the point to note is that JUST BECAUSE IT IS MADE OUT OF TITANIUM DOES NOT MEAN IT IS GOOD.

    My experience with a motobecane has made me reach the opinion that they are sacks of stinky horse pooh. I forked out for a US made titanium road bike and couldn't be happier.

    All things being equal, I do think that the bikes come pretty well equipped, poorly selected cassette, cheap wheels and horrible crankset aside. Whatever, if there are people having a great time riding then it can only be a good thing, if they think they got a good deal then great, but I think they got wallet raped by a snake oil salesman.

  50. #50
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    The geometry of the 29er ti moto is basically the same than the superfly one. the welding work is top (enough pictures in the different post), 99% of the riders won't be able to distinguish them from Lynskey or others.

    I researched all Threads when shopping for a Ti 29er and couldn't find anything bad on the Motos - just great reviews. Or trash that does not refer to the bike itself by people trying to make the bike look bad for whatever reason.

    Interesting that some guys in these forums feel so threatend by the BD offer to freak out. I am kinda wondering what the 3 previous posters are doing in this moto thread since they apparently have no intention at all to buy a Moto.
    Last edited by hellocook; 11-21-2009 at 11:27 AM.

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