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Thread: 4-Banger Weight

  1. #1
    CTB
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    4-Banger Weight

    Well, I met my goal of getting my 4B below 30 lb.





    Made me curious - has anyone ever scaled their Bangers? I haven't put any "exotic" parts on the bike, so there's still room to lose a little bit of weight, but I don't think much without sacrificing the usability and strength I have built in. The saddle is non-negotiable, but I could go with carbon bars, a carbon post (if anyone even makes a 26.8 in carbon), lighter Ergon grips (also not negotiable), a new BB/crankset (my Deore M510 and BB are 971g, so there's some room there), and so on. But that's all a lot of money. I could lose the bar ends, but I like having them. I've already converted the tires you see to tubeless with Stan's sealant, so other than an expensive, lighter wheelset, not much room there. (The Race King is 469g and the Mountain King is 580g, already pretty light for their size.)

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    My Straight 6 was below 30 pounds (though now it's slightly above it again) with a reasonable build with no carbon. If you're interested, I can post it's spec sheet.

    EDIT: Sette makes a 26.8 seatpost in carbon if you're looking.

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    My 4 Banger Homegrown is around 28 pounds after putting it on a diet last winter.

    RaceFace also makes some light 26.8 posts.

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    CTB
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    B-Mech, you beat me to the request for your build. Thanks. Baulz, I'd love to see your build as well, plus what size frame both of you guys had. If I had a 17" frame like I need, that would drop a tiny bit of weight as well from my 19" frame. I'll post my build later for comparison.
    Last edited by CTB; 10-06-2009 at 02:32 AM.

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    Mine's an 18". I'll trade you.

    I don't know if you've done it yet or not, but I strongly recommend getting a kitchen scale with at least 1 gram resolution, then weighing every single part of your bike and putting it in a spreadsheet. It's a great tool to let you see where you're carrying weight, and to make the upgrades as effective as possible.

    How do you like the clipless pedals?

    Speaking of weight woes, my single speed Homegrown is only 30 grams away from being below 20 pounds. 30 grams! Problem is, I'm not sure where to save it...

  7. #7
    CTB
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    I still have my 17" non-HG Banger that needs a couple welds touched up, so I'm good if I ever want to give up the HG. But as much as I'm an engineer, I also like the looks of my HG better, so I'm keeping it.

    I don't own a scale, but I have friends with one. I borrowed it while I had the bike torn down over the winter, and I already have the spreadsheet of which you speak.

    I'll post the build later.

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    A couple things off the top of my head:

    - Are you sure the saddle isn't negotiable? You could lose about a pound here. All saddles have different shapes, and there's lot of trial and error involved. I found a saddle (SDG Ti Fly) which is very low weight and profile, but also very comfortable.

    - If you wait around, you can find an XTR M960 crankset on eBay for cheap. I picked one up for $86 shipped. It weighs about 810g stock with the BB.

    - A Thomson seatpost would lose about 100g.

    - What hubs are you using?

    - What cassette are you using?

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    Here is my build list...

    19" Homegrown 4 Banger Gold/Silver with 2.0" stroke shock
    2000 Psylo XC
    DiaComp headset
    Ritchey stem
    Monkeylight XC bar
    Ritchey WCS Ergo foam grips
    RaceFace Deus XC post
    XTR M952 Cranks/BB
    Generic 32t ring with carbon guide
    XTR M952 Rear Derailleur
    XT 11-32 Cassette
    XT 9spd Shifter
    XTR Pedals
    Bontrager Bassboat saddle
    Hope Mono Mini Brakes w/A2Z rear adaptor
    Light rotors 180/160mm - Can't remember the name
    Hope XC front hub
    Mavic 317 rim? 36 spoke
    DT 240s Rear Hub
    Sun Equalizer 23 rim 32 spoke
    DT DB spokes/Alloy nipples
    Continental Vertical Protection 2.3
    Light tubes
    Bolt-on Skewers
    Aluminum bolts wherever possible

    Here it is

    Old pic, cranks and front rotor have changed. Have a Sid rear shock I'm tempted to try, should save at least 1/2 pound. The bike needs a gold Psylo too.


  10. #10
    CTB
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    - Are you sure the saddle isn't negotiable?
    Yes. You can either ride an upholstered pipe like nearly every saddle I've ridden (admittedly not that many but enough) and put the weight of the padding in your shorts (I don't wear bike shorts), or you can put the padding on the saddle and call it good. I chose the latter and am extremely comfortable with it. Yeah, I don't fit the accepted practice, but I've ridden this way since 1999 just fine.

    You could lose about a pound here.
    My saddle is 392g, per quote, so I can't lose a full pound. That weight isn't nearly as important to me as being comfortable.

    there's lot of trial and error involved.
    Yep, I don't like my WTB ProGel at all, though it seemed like it might be comfortable. Very happy with what I have.

    - A Thomson seatpost would lose about 100g.
    My current post is 206g and about 7" long from rails to end. Not sure I can get 100g from a Thompson or other light post; I think 160g (40g save) is possible.

    - What hubs are you using?
    Bike as you see it has Shimano XT hubs, M756 vintage.

    - What cassette are you using?
    XT, M750 vintage.

    Rest of the build, as I can remember it:

    Front D: XT M750 vintage
    Rear D: XTR M952 vintage
    2008 Fox F100R fork
    2004 Fox Float RL shock from Cannondale Jekyll (unchangeable, other than back to stock. SID is lighter by a bit, but the Fox clobbers it for performance and greater wheel travel)
    110mm Kalloy Uno Stem (166g)
    Ergon grips (GP1S) - necessary, though I could go Ergon "Superlights"
    Original 1999 Hayes Mag brakes (22mm rear)
    Unknown SRAM chain, but it's pretty old with a Power Link
    Shimano Deore M510 crankset with aluminum chain rings and JIS taper BB - 971g for the set
    Unknown spokes
    32-hole Mavic XM819 UST rims. I won't use narrower than 19mm inside-width rims, given the fat tires I prefer.
    Rear tire: Conti Race King SS 2.2, converted tubeless. Tire was 469g "bare."
    Front tire: Conti Mountain King SS 2.4, converted tubeless. Tire was 589g "bare."
    (Very happy with the tires. Low rolling resistance, good grip/feel, low weight overall. Each was sealed with 3 scoops of Stans.)
    Shimano M520 clipless pedals.
    Unknown handlebars, 25.5" width, fairly low rise. They came with the bike, and then I chopped them down. This is not wide-bar friendly riding in Michigan, and I'm pretty narrow anyway.
    Salsa QR seat clamp
    XT skewers.
    LX shifters of the M570 vintage.

    Hmmm...if there's anything I forgot, ask me, but I think that's just about it. And again, the bike is a 19" frame.

    Offhand, I think the only real big hitter is the crankset (800g easily possible with cash), with some gains to be had in stem, bars, and *maybe* a seat post. I'm not trying to go all-out, I'm just looking to see how I could reduce it a little while keeping a budget (i.e. I have none).

    Baulz, I'm surprised yours is so light. You have the heavier dropouts on there (227g vs 157g for the later mag ones), the same size frame as mine, the coil-over (Super Deluxe with reducers, bolts, and trunnion 573g, SID is 306g, my Fox setup with trunnion is 367g), etc. I do know that the original carbon swingarm on my HG was significantly lighter than the one on there now (to the tune of 46g), but I like the later graphics (see, I'm not a true weenie). I also used all the 2000 pivot hardware on my bike, and the lighter no-pinch-bolt chainstay from my 2000.

    Anyway, food for thought.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    How do you like the clipless pedals?
    Fine on a known trail where I can just crank along. Still don't like them in panic situations or unknown trails where I need to dab, etc. There's no way I'd keep them on the bike if I were wintering in Arizona like I have the last few years, where the penalty for not clipping out is a LOT worse than here in MI. However, that no longer is part of my life, so I'll have time to get fat and work on the bike over the winter.

    I like the ground clearance and power transmission, which I already knew from my time on the Scotts. Still have issues getting out of them quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB

    Baulz, I'm surprised yours is so light. You have the heavier dropouts on there (227g vs 157g for the later mag ones), the same size frame as mine, the coil-over (Super Deluxe with reducers, bolts, and trunnion 573g, SID is 306g, my Fox setup with trunnion is 367g), etc. I do know that the original carbon swingarm on my HG was significantly lighter than the one on there now (to the tune of 46g), but I like the later graphics (see, I'm not a true weenie). I also used all the 2000 pivot hardware on my bike, and the lighter no-pinch-bolt chainstay from my 2000.
    Turns out I was wrong, it's just a hair over 29 pounds. The frame is a beast, but the parts are light. Attention to detail is the key, all the small savings add up (skewers save 55g, rotors save 60g, etc.). One big thing is the 1X9 drivetrain, no front shifter/front derailleur/front cable & housing/2 less chainrings/shorter chain.

    Looking at the bike last night I determined there is about another 90grams to save, maybe more.

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    One thing I definitely noticed if your wheels are heavy. The XT hubs are porkers, and you're running UST rims when you don't need to be.

    I'd say pick up some new rims and hubs over winter when everything is cheaper and get them built up. If you don't build wheels yourself, I'd be happy to do it for you.

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    Whew, haven't had time for full replies lately. I think this matches my original statement of cost vs weight. I think I'm pretty much at the point of where the cost is way more than I intend on putting into the bike for not that much weight loss. I'm running UST rims because I'm running the tires tubeless and didn't want to mess with the rim strips. The weight of a Stans rims strip is about the same as the weight diff between my XM819 wheels and my CrossRides, so I'm happy with that. I averaged less than $200 a set for both those wheelsets, and I don't have the money for playing around with expensive ones. Every time I've priced quality 19mm inside-width rims, spokes, and hubs to build them up, it's a lot more than I want to spend.

    So shy of finding a bargain on a high-end crankset or ponying up for an expensive wheelset, I don't think there are any big hitters left. I can live with that.

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    29lb, 4banger!!! holly crap! my 15'' homegrown weighs in at 28! stupid heavy fork, i need a 4 banger!


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    Quote Originally Posted by shwinn8
    29lb, 4banger!!! holly crap! my 15'' homegrown weighs in at 28! stupid heavy fork, i need a 4 banger!
    How is your Homegrown so heavy?!?

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    My 17" Moab was probably 26 lb as it came from Scwhinn in 1998. The components really add up. My HG Carbon is a solid 32 as it sits now. Porky!

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    The HG Carbon is a fantastically heavy frame. It weighs nearly as much as a new Straight 6 frame!

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    heavy rock shox fork... stupid rockshox


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    How much do you weigh? How much travel do you need? I may have a lead on something for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    The HG Carbon is a fantastically heavy frame. It weighs nearly as much as a new Straight 6 frame!
    The good thing is that after riding one for 9 years, everything else seems light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB

    So shy of finding a bargain on a high-end crankset or ponying up for an expensive wheelset, I don't think there are any big hitters left. I can live with that.
    Wrong attitude, there is more to saving weight than just finding the big places to spend big money. Why not give bolt-on skewers a try? Save 55g for $15. Some lighter rotors, save 60g for $30-40. Aluminum chainring bolts will save 20-25g for $12 (plus add bling ). Then the smaller parts, carbon headset spacers, aluminum bolts for headset & bottle cage & derailleur pulleys & front derailleur mount will save another 20-25g for $10 or so. All together over 1/3 pound for $75-80.

    The cranks will be an expensive upgrade, but what about just the BB for now? Maybe pedals too? Also look for deals on a light front wheel, I got a used King front hub last year for $50, spent about $100 for the entire wheel.

  23. #23
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    i'm about 140. i have a 15'' homegrown that is to small for me. i would like a 17'' 4banger but with the move to Cali, i can't spend any money right now


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    All I will say, is there are several Manitou SX forks on eBay right now, most of which will go dirt cheap. The SX is a very good fork, reliable, good chassis, and a damping system which is good even by today's standards. It would probably drop about a pound from your current fork.

  25. #25
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    My SX-R still rides great now that I topped up the fluid on the compression side. It impressed me with its feel once I freshened it, and it is a '99 fork.

    Baulz:
    Bolt-on skewers: not in a million years. I have to take the wheels off to fit the bike in my car to go ride, so that is definitely not worth a few grams to me, unless I'm not understanding the concept of bolt-on skewers. I'm not a true weenie, I just am looking for relatively easy ways to nuke weight without sacrificing the usability of the bike. I've already got aluminum chainring bolts on the big ring (taken from another crankset I have), so I did do that one somewhat. Still have 4 that could be changed, though, so there's any easy one. I don't have a bottle cage, so there aren't any bolts on the bike (just some light plastic plugs). Aluminum derailleur pulleys? I guess I never thought of what the ones on there now are made of on my old XTR. Rotors are on my list when I need new ones, check. Al bolts are something to look into as well. Good ideas for pecking away at it.

    Is there such a thing as a lightweight JIS taper BB? Just switching to my Octalink crankset would save 70g, I already know that. That was a cosmetic decision. See, not a real weenie.

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    Don't really bother with rotors and especially bolts until you do something about those hubs. Seriously, they're very durable, but they're boat anchors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB

    Is there such a thing as a lightweight JIS taper BB? Just switching to my Octalink crankset would save 70g, I already know that. That was a cosmetic decision. See, not a real weenie.
    Yes, but not as many around to choose from these days. Do you know which you have now? Is it a Deore? With some searching you should be able to still find a Shimano UN-72 BB for $25 or so. I have had good luck with buying used Race Face BB's and putting a new set of $10 bearings in them. That could save up to 1/4pound.

    Heavy hubs with light rotors are still lighter than heavy hubs with heavy rotors. As a said before, every bit counts, and if you don't have lots of money spend focus on the best bang for the buck.

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    Now you've got me going...I just ventured over to Toronto Cycle's website and they have lots of aluminum goodies over there...looks like fun stuff!

    I'll be able to tell you what BB I have when I get home. It's brand new this season, it's Shimano, and it was cheap, so it was heavy.

    BMech, suggestions on hubs? I'd be fine relacing the wheelset with different hubs if the spokes were usable. Caveat: I will NOT ride a King rear hub, or any other hub that makes that much horrendous racket. I know why it does that, I can appreciate the engineering reason, but I'm not gonna ride a wood splint stuck in a heater fan everywhere I go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB
    Now you've got me going...I just ventured over to Toronto Cycle's website and they have lots of aluminum goodies over there...looks like fun stuff!

    I'll be able to tell you what BB I have when I get home. It's brand new this season, it's Shimano, and it was cheap, so it was heavy.

    BMech, suggestions on hubs? I'd be fine relacing the wheelset with different hubs if the spokes were usable. Caveat: I will NOT ride a King rear hub, or any other hub that makes that much horrendous racket. I know why it does that, I can appreciate the engineering reason, but I'm not gonna ride a wood splint stuck in a heater fan everywhere I go.
    hehe, I love Toronto Cycle's. Have spent lotsa money there, great guy to buy from, I get my orders within a couple days. But it is addictive....

    DT 240 hubs are pretty quiet, that's what I have on the rear of my 4banger. They aren't cheap, I lucked into a deal on mine, however they are lighter than King's. You should replace the spokes at the same time, not a good idea to re-use. Plus there is weight to be saved, Cambriabike has the best deals on spokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baulz
    Heavy hubs with light rotors are still lighter than heavy hubs with heavy rotors. As a said before, every bit counts, and if you don't have lots of money spend focus on the best bang for the buck.
    But the value isn't there. Going to light rotors may drop 140 grams at most, but if you look at the hubs, the rear weighs 555 grams and the front weighs 245 grams . There are a lot of good, light weight hubs you could use in there place, and I'd suggest hitting up eBay regularly over the winter and finding some. It's really just seeing what you can score a good deal on.

    I would also, strongly, recommend bike shorts. A well padded saddle just doesn't compare to bike shorts, since they're design without seams in the wrong places, prevent chafing, and move sweat away from you. I shudder to think of riding without them. Regarding weight, it's much preferred to carry the weight on your body as opposed in the bike.

    When you can, I'd suggest checking your handlebar. I've had OEM handlebars weigh an incredible amount before.

    Look for XTR M960 cranksets on eBay. I managed to snag one for $86 shipped, and they weigh in around 800 grams. Use esnipe to make a bid group, and then enter every single M960 crankset you find into esnipe at the price you want; you'll eventually win one. If you're willing to ditch your big ring, then you can drop about an additional 130 grams.

    Switch to your Octalink crankset and lighter swingarm. The two of them together will save you a quarter pound.

    A couple things to remember when putting a bike on a diet:
    -You have to sweat the weight of every. single. part.
    -Remember that 454 grams equals a pound, and 50 grams is over a tenth of a pound.

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    Bolt tuning (switching to alloy and ti bolts) is generally the least cost effective way to shed weight. You're almost always better served saving the money toward something substantial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    Bolt tuning (switching to alloy and ti bolts) is generally the least cost effective way to shed weight. You're almost always better served saving the money toward something substantial.
    Actualy aluminum bolts offer the best weight savings per dollar spent, much better than expensive hubs, although there is less weight to be saved.

    As an example, a aluminum headset compression bolt in aluminum saves 7g and costs $1.90. That works out to 27 cents per gram saved.

    A DT 240 rear hub would save 277g and costs $340 at Speedgoat. That works out to $1.22 per gram saved, plus the cost of new spokes and labour to build the wheel.

    There are obviously performance factors as well to take into account, by on a cost/gram saved ratio aluminum bolts are a cheap way to shed weight.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baulz
    Actualy aluminum bolts offer the best weight savings per dollar spent, much better than expensive hubs, although there is less weight to be saved.

    As an example, a aluminum headset compression bolt in aluminum saves 7g and costs $1.90. That works out to 27 cents per gram saved.

    A DT 240 rear hub would save 277g and costs $340 at Speedgoat. That works out to $1.22 per gram saved, plus the cost of new spokes and labour to build the wheel.

    There are obviously performance factors as well to take into account, by on a cost/gram saved ratio aluminum bolts are a cheap way to shed weight.
    You're right...kind of. The places where you can save weight with aluminum bolts is limited, as are the total weight savings (dependent on how many bolts the bike has). So while the cost per gram can be quite good, you quickly exhaust the potential, and, compared to the total weight of the bike, have barely saved any weight. So in that sense I think it's better to save up for bigger hitters.

    If you'd like to read more on bolt tuning, here's a really good article I found at Weight Weenies by our very own Nino:
    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/articles.php?ID=16

    To CTB: as I mentioned before, I'd be more than happy to build a set of wheels for you at no charge.

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