Results 1 to 38 of 38
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955

    Where's the Love for Greenbush?

    Hey guys and gals. Where's the love for the new Greenbush trails and local trail advocate for the area, me? I didn't know these polls were up or I would have made a nomination. Anyway just being a smart a#$ I hope everyone is enjoying the new trails. Everytime I ride them I think to myself all the hours of digging, picking rocks, and cutting roots was worth it. Be sure to check out Kettlepalooza. Hopefully by then we'll be working on loop four otherwise we'll be improving on what we all ready have as a few problem areas have shown since the traffic has increased. Since GB didn't make the list I'll be voting for the Roche trail. That place ROCKS if you know what I mean.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,641
    I think it's because the Greenbush trails are still pretty new (the singletrack) and not a lot of riders get out that way.
    I haven't ridden Greenbush yet but it's on my list. I ski the trails there occasionally and if the mountain bikers up there put the kind of love into the trails that the XC skiers do, it should be awesome. It's a good 2 hour drive for me each way so it's a little outside my normal stomping grounds. I can be at the Southern Kettles in less than an hour and I have some pretty decent local trails here in Kenosha as well.
    Between the new stuff a Greenbush, all the new stuff around Madison, and the new stuff in Milwaukee , I have more choices than time.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    84

    Does this make you feel better?

    I raced the 12 hr at Greenbush earlier this year. What an excellent trail! I was not expecting the ride to be as fun as it was (was expecting New Fane).

    The trails flow extremely well. The roller coaster like section right near the trailhead was a blast. This trail is well worth the drive from Waukesha. Excellent job!

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jamorgan3777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    46

    Where are they?

    New rider here looking for trails in the Appleton area, where are the Greenbush trails?

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jjmtb1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    317
    I finally got to ride the Greenbush trails and they are awesome. I almost dont want to admit that because I would like to keep them to myself. Props to who ever the crew was that built them. They are obviosly built by real mtbr's. You can tell by the flow that a lot of effort was put into them to gain the most out whats available.

    From Appleton it is bit of a haul but well worth it.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by jamorgan3777
    New rider here looking for trails in the Appleton area, where are the Greenbush trails?
    From Appleton take Hwy. 41 South to Fond du Lac. Exit Hwy. 23 east and continue about 15-20 miles and you'll see a sign for the city of Greenbush and I think there is a recreation sign for Greenbush also. Hang a right and that will take you into Greenbush. Don't blink or you'll miss it. Turn right at the feed mill, I think that's Cty. T. and follow about 1 mile out of town. Instead of following "T" veer left onto Kettle Moraine Drive. There should be a recreation sign there. Keep following the signs and you'll find it. There is an upper and lower trail head.

  7. #7
    Pegasus Baby!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    17
    Great trails. A little ruff on the cross bike (its all i had with) but should be amazing when i get back with fat tires.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: motard5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    254
    just rode these. Let me get the criticism out of the way first:

    -Update the trailhead map!! Also, when we rode the first loop to the right, you come out by the group camp ground/parking lot, but there are no clear markings/direction to keep going? We had to ride the gravel rode all the way through the campground back to where the trails were to catch the second loop. Am i missing something?
    -try and utilize some of the elevation change more in the area if you can. I spied a couple of HUGE valleys that you could build some wicked roller coaster like rides down through, and some killer climbs back up. I am a sucker for wicked downhills and uphills though

    positives:
    -some of the best FLOWing trails in Wisco. Although they are def. trying to utilize as much space as possible (ie winding), they flow really nicely through the area. You can pump-track your way through long sections without pedaling
    -i liked the little rock garden pile to go over. Keep the option of obstacles, natural and not coming!
    -great use of different terrain throughout.
    -great trail that experts or beginners can enjoy, lots of little elevation changes that keep the momentum going.
    -good amount of small rocks to keep you on your toes


    overall I liked it. Its still freshy fresh, so I can understand the lack of map. I rode Greenbush a few years ago for the first time and was severely disappointed, vowing never to come back to the 'cross country ski trails'. I went on a wim with with a few friends that do not bike much, and came away with a huge grin which is important.

    Keep up the great work, and hopefully there is more land out there that you can cut in another 10 mile loop. I think you could attract a lot more bikers hungry for trails north of Milwaukee/south of Green Bay.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955

    Greenbush Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by motard5
    just rode these. Let me get the criticism out of the way first:

    -Update the trailhead map!! Also, when we rode the first loop to the right, you come out by the group camp ground/parking lot, but there are no clear markings/direction to keep going? We had to ride the gravel rode all the way through the campground back to where the trails were to catch the second loop. Am i missing something?
    -try and utilize some of the elevation change more in the area if you can. I spied a couple of HUGE valleys that you could build some wicked roller coaster like rides down through, and some killer climbs back up. I am a sucker for wicked downhills and uphills though


    positives:
    -some of the best FLOWing trails in Wisco. Although they are def. trying to utilize as much space as possible (ie winding), they flow really nicely through the area. You can pump-track your way through long sections without pedaling
    -i liked the little rock garden pile to go over. Keep the option of obstacles, natural and not coming!
    -great use of different terrain throughout.
    -great trail that experts or beginners can enjoy, lots of little elevation changes that keep the momentum going.
    -good amount of small rocks to keep you on your toes


    overall I liked it. Its still freshy fresh, so I can understand the lack of map. I rode Greenbush a few years ago for the first time and was severely disappointed, vowing never to come back to the 'cross country ski trails'. I went on a wim with with a few friends that do not bike much, and came away with a huge grin which is important.

    Keep up the great work, and hopefully there is more land out there that you can cut in another 10 mile loop. I think you could attract a lot more bikers hungry for trails north of Milwaukee/south of Green Bay.
    Thanks for the constructive criticism. I'll try to address some of your concerns. I don't have control over some of these things since it is a state park and the DNR handles things like trail maps and signs but I will forward these complaints to the appropriate individuals. As you stated the trail is very new so there are some growing pains. I'm assuming you started at the upper parking lot. You actually started on loop two. Where you came out by the parking lot is the start of loop 1. There is a sign by the triangle rock pile at the start of loop one showing which direction the trail goes.

    As far as utilizing the terrain. IMBA layed out the trail. The trail is meant to be entirely bench cut with the goal of traversing the hills. I agree that some of the valleys and terrain could have been utilized better but besides IMBA laying it out the State needed to have it approved for environmental impact before construction could begin. Steep uphills and downhills probably would not have passed due to errosion issues. The trail was designed for sustainability

    I'm glad you enjoyed the ride overall. It is definately an improvement over the old ski trails. Unfortunately there are no plans for additional trail at Greenbush other than the 2-3 miles that will be added to complete loop 4. There is however 5-6 miles being constructed as week speak at New Fane which is about 15 miles from Greenbush. Once this project is done construction will resume at Greenbush to finish the final loop. See the Kettlepalooza post for details on a trail building celebration we'll be having in the fall.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: motard5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    254
    thanks for the response!

    What will the overall length be of the singletrack at Greenbush? (ie if one were to ride all 4 loops)

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by motard5
    thanks for the response!

    What will the overall length be of the singletrack at Greenbush? (ie if one were to ride all 4 loops)
    Should be about 10 miles.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    22
    I also hit Greenbush for the first time. I ran into two separate groups of riders going the wrong way that were turned around...and out of water. I MAY be able to see the possibility of complication, but just try to use your head when out there as the signage only seems to be directed in one way.

    I loved it, big props on how the trails flow. The back-half of loop 3 is great fun! I would like to see some more technical spots as well, but I also believe it's a good place to work on your average speed to keep the challenge up.

    Thank you to all who have maintained this trail. I look forward to hitting loop 4 when it's completed!
    2009 Trek 4500

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955

    Loop 4 Roughed In

    Loop 4 at Greenbush has been roughed in. Everyone show up to Kettlepalooza so we can get the finish work done and ride it in all weekend.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: d_wrek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    44

    Here's some love for Greenbush

    Finally got up to Greenbush today. Two words...awe and some. Rode all 4 loops and had a blast. Really nice flow to the whole layout. Loop 4 is still a little raw, but that's to be expected. It's obvious that a lot of planning and work went into building those trails and it definitely paid off. With all the rain we just had, I was amazed that there was almost no mud. The slippery roots, rocks, and leaves made things interesting though...had to take it a little easy. Can't wait to get back when it's dry and fast.

    Excellent work...joins Rock Lake, Makwa, and Smokin Spoke in my favorite trails list.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    116
    here is my $.02.

    the system is kinda disappointing. sorry, but there it is. the bench-cutting is waaaaaaaay overdone. i like a fun flowing benchcut as much as the next guy, but the entire system being practically nothing BUT benchcuts gets kinda irksome.

    i understand the purpose of the technique. i also understand that there are other ways to utilize terrain to provide a balanced and varied ride experience. the terrain there could indeed have some ridgetop rollers, and some fun bobsled-type sections in the never-ending valleys and kettles. these varied features could be every bit as sustainable as a benchcut, but they are practically nonexistant in the current trail. asit sits, the trail strikes me as being the result of somebodygeting a new ditch-witch for him or herself, and just going plumb loco with it. like i say - overdone !! it's a shame, cuz it coulda been so much more. i feel no desire to go charging back to the place to ride, sad to say. the overpowering one-dimensional nature of the trail had me almost annoyed inside of 2 hours last time i rode there.

    sorry.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    249
    Quote Originally Posted by T mon T
    here is my $.02.

    the system is kinda disappointing. sorry, but there it is. the bench-cutting is waaaaaaaay overdone. i like a fun flowing benchcut as much as the next guy, but the entire system being practically nothing BUT benchcuts gets kinda irksome.

    i understand the purpose of the technique. i also understand that there are other ways to utilize terrain to provide a balanced and varied ride experience. the terrain there could indeed have some ridgetop rollers, and some fun bobsled-type sections in the never-ending valleys and kettles. these varied features could be every bit as sustainable as a benchcut, but they are practically nonexistant in the current trail. asit sits, the trail strikes me as being the result of somebodygeting a new ditch-witch for him or herself, and just going plumb loco with it. like i say - overdone !! it's a shame, cuz it coulda been so much more. i feel no desire to go charging back to the place to ride, sad to say. the overpowering one-dimensional nature of the trail had me almost annoyed inside of 2 hours last time i rode there.

    sorry.

    And here's an opinion from someone who actually enjoys mountain biking (me): Greenbush is the shiznazzle.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    116

    nyuk nyuk

    i enjoy mtn biking plenty, my friend, and lots of it. the man asked an opinon on a system, and i gave it. sorry for that. let me amend it to a norm for ya, tho:

    yeah, greenbush is great. best ever. nothing better anywhere. etc etc.

  18. #18
    Weird Eh
    Reputation: I Drink Blatz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    159
    I love Greenbush. I`ll be making the trek fro Illinoizze many times. Digging the new Salamander Trail btw. It will give Southern Kettle a run for it`s money

  19. #19
    Midnight Rider
    Reputation: sayhello100's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    3

    greenbush

    count me in. two thumbs up.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955

    No good

    Quote Originally Posted by T mon T
    here is my $.02.

    the system is kinda disappointing. sorry, but there it is. the bench-cutting is waaaaaaaay overdone. i like a fun flowing benchcut as much as the next guy, but the entire system being practically nothing BUT benchcuts gets kinda irksome.

    i understand the purpose of the technique. i also understand that there are other ways to utilize terrain to provide a balanced and varied ride experience. the terrain there could indeed have some ridgetop rollers, and some fun bobsled-type sections in the never-ending valleys and kettles. these varied features could be every bit as sustainable as a benchcut, but they are practically nonexistant in the current trail. asit sits, the trail strikes me as being the result of somebodygeting a new ditch-witch for him or herself, and just going plumb loco with it. like i say - overdone !! it's a shame, cuz it coulda been so much more. i feel no desire to go charging back to the place to ride, sad to say. the overpowering one-dimensional nature of the trail had me almost annoyed inside of 2 hours last time i rode there.

    sorry.
    Sorry, but where were you with your opinion for the last three years while some of us busted our tails building the trail? Your opinion would have been respected if you were standing shoulder to shoulder with a mcloud in hand. Some of your desires could have been granted. To come on here after the fact with your negative opinion garners zero respect.

  21. #21
    Mantis, Paramount, Campy
    Reputation: Shayne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,663
    So only someone that helped build the trail is allowed to have a valid opinion of them?
    Seems a bit closed minded.

    I love the northern Kettles but havent been to the new Greenbush trails yet.
    *** --- *** --- ***

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    So only someone that helped build the trail is allowed to have a valid opinion of them?
    Seems a bit closed minded.

    I love the northern Kettles but havent been to the new Greenbush trails yet.
    No not at all. The riding at GB isn't for everyone and that is fine if that is your opinion. But to rip on the trails because you don't agree with how they were constructed is lame. There were reasons the trail was laid out and constructed the way it was. The point I was trying to make is if you want to have a say in how trails are designed and constructed. Then get involved in the build process. Whether we are talking about GB or some other system.

  23. #23
    I need skills
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    1,033

    yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne
    So only someone that helped build the trail is allowed to have a valid opinion of them?
    Seems a bit closed mind.
    Using the word "valid" means "yes" to your question. The above criticism went beyond an opinion and ventured into "2nd guessing" the trail builders.

    I am sure if the poster came to some trail days, he would be welcomed, as would suggestions phrased as "has ...... been considered?".
    Charlie

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,641
    It's understandable that those that invest the time to build the trails may take offense to criticism from someone that hasn't volunteered for that specific trail, but the guy has a right to post his opinion on these forums. And yes, that includes being able to 2nd guess the trail builders. It doesn't mean that the trail builders were wrong or that they should make changes just because someone doesn't like what they did, it just means that there are other opinions. Maybe these other opinions are useful to someone, maybe they're not.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  25. #25
    I need skills
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    1,033

    nope

    I read the user agreement. No where does it state any of us have any "rights" to post anything here.

    The subject of this debate has clearly violated section 3, paragraph a) of the Nealy Way of Mountain Bike Knowledge: "Thou shalt be cool."

    The arguments can be best summed up by the following comic:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Where's the Love for Greenbush?-trail-build2.gif  


  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,641
    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson
    I read the user agreement. No where does it state any of us have any "rights" to post anything here.
    OK, then let me reword my statement. He has just as much a right to post his opinion as your do yours.
    Maybe they should rewrite the rules and make these forums a happy happy love fest. You know, "nice bike man, I really like the way you put the fork on backwards, I think I'll try that with mine', "great job on the new trails, the old hills just took too much effort to ride anyway, widening the trail to 10' really helps visibility, and the new asphalt keeps things nice and tidy", "great job SRAM, I never knew I needed 10 speed shifters, but I'm sure I will love them"
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    249
    Quote Originally Posted by trailville
    OK, then let me reword my statement. He has just as much a right to post his opinion as your do yours.
    Maybe they should rewrite the rules and make these forums a happy happy love fest. You know, "nice bike man, I really like the way you put the fork on backwards, I think I'll try that with mine', "great job on the new trails, the old hills just took too much effort to ride anyway, widening the trail to 10' really helps visibility, and the new asphalt keeps things nice and tidy", "great job SRAM, I never knew I needed 10 speed shifters, but I'm sure I will love them"

    HAH! Good job.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    236

    Face to Face

    I must agree with some of the criticism of this trail. No I was not shoulder to shoulder to build them, nor asked to, or asked for input etc. etc., but chances are you were not with us when building in Co. and NM along the Continental Divide Trail. Who cares? Greenbush's benchcutting is much too emphasized and eliminates a more natural aspect to the terrain and keeping the trail high along the ridge lines and never down into the kettles eliminates the potential for good hill climbing. However, this seems common for Wisconsin trail building, and exists also at Hatchery, Makwa, Rock Lake, and Namakagon, where great hill climbs could come into effect. One reason I rate Levis -Trow, Underdown, and Nicolet Roche highly is because of the climbing. Climbing separates the easy/moderate from the difficult and so too the caliber of the rider. I for one do not want mountain biking to be too easy and not challenging. Greenbush is easy. Really easy ... and fast with absolutely no real technical challenge. But they are fun to ride! Very expensive for the low mileage. How many laps in 2 hours?

  29. #29
    =========
    Reputation: ~gomez~'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,868
    I left with the impression that the trails at Greenbush were more difficult than the Southern Kettle Trails. I've only ridden the new Greenbush 4 times, and S. Kettle a zillion times, but.....could I be that wrong? The last (Salamander) loop has some nice long climbs in it.

    If I remember correctly, the IMBA crew layed out the 4 loops the way that they currently stand. I think there is a pretty good chance to incorporate some ridge-top to kettle-down sections once the last of the roughed in single-track gets completed and ridden. Trails aren't necessarily a static creation. They change and additional re-routes are pretty common....(at least at the southern kettle). So there's probably a good chance that new features (climbs) or perhaps some rock-garden technical sections can be proposed and built over the next few seasons. Like a five year plan.

    Believe me....these are good problems to have.....looking at the big picture, having trail that comes under some critiquing is way better than having eroding converted ski trail....user conflict....or no trail at all.

    But to accomplish all of this.....DeKerf Team (Randy) is going to need some help from guys and gals that live and ride around Greenbush at some work days.

    When those trails are a little wet.....I don't think they're too easy......but when they're dry......(are they ever dry?) they're probably easier.

    g

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955
    Gomez is correct in regards to the planning and construction of this trail system. IMBA layed the trails out for all four loops and flagged them. The trails were then constructed per IMBA trail building standards. The trails will never run through the bottoms of the kettles because of run-off. In the spring those bottoms are sometimes full of water. There is plenty of climbing out there as well. Have you ridden loop 3? It's a rollercoaster with a bunch of short grinders.

    The design works for the area. These trails are some of the earliest to open in the spring. We were riding very early in May this year and you can have heavy showers in the morning and dry trails in the afternoon.

    With that being said future trail construction is open to debate. You must voice your opinion to the DNR at public hearings. Tell them what you want. They are willing to work with us. Then take it a step further and help them build what you want.

  31. #31
    Weird Eh
    Reputation: I Drink Blatz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    159
    Steep climbs = erosion in most cases. That`s why Southern Kettle has rerouted around all the steeps at John Muir and will be at Emma. It kind of makes me laugh and cry because we don`t have these problems in Northern IL. Because we have almost no trails at all. Trail work is an on going process like Gomez stated. Just look at what`s happened at Southern Kettle the last 5 years. It just keeps getting better. Northern Kettle is well on it`s way and I hope to ride there often.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955
    Blatz hit it on the head in regards to steep climbs and same holds true for steep downhills. Also the alternative to these trails was no mountain biking at all. We were being removed from the ski trails which left us with nothing. I think this is a pretty darn good alternative from that option.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    116
    mr dekerf

    you asked where the love was, not me. if all you wanted to hear was loving commentary, and i misunderstood that i apologize. i took your meaning as seeking input. my input happened to be of a more critiquing nature. ignore it if you like. i live hours from the area, so no i was not there building with you. and, as it happens i have attended IMBA trail-schools, hosted IMBA trail-crews at my house, and am no stranger to a mcleod.

    i will say, you seem to take the design aspects personally, and yet you state that you were not the one who came up with the design . . . what gives ?? in this case, then, my critique is with the DNR folk who emphasised the one-dimensional aspect of the design ( near total benchcut ), not you or your work. surely this is not the first time somebody has held a critical view of a DNR trail design. as one poster above has noted, they do tend to one-dimensionality . . . . . . in my opinion, as well as his. if you disagree that is fine, perhaps tho - it is something you didn't notice . . . . in which case an objective critique might prove enlightening. as gomez noted revisions are a given in trail building. any revision will first require a critique of what exists.

    i first rode greenbush on a mtn bike in 1983, before the current skate-ski trails you are familiar with were widened from their original singletrack. i was a vocal state-level opponent to that ski-trail widening, and when we mtn bikers were thrown under the bus and they ran bulldozers thru the place for the skate-skiiers i was a vocal early state-level advocate for a replacement system of singletrack way back then. you are correct in your enthusiasm for the system in being an improvement over the stagnant overdue previous situation. but your work itself - excellent tho it is - came on the shoulders of people long gone, and i think you might note that. the struggle for the DNR to even accept mtn biking as a legit use of its land was a bloody one, and not all of us made it out of it in one piece, so to speak. the fact that the DNR is willing to work with you today did not happen because of their goodwill and charity, in case you were not aware. i am burned out and out of the battle, as are most of my contempories, but am glad you are there to carry on. we are in this together. a little critique on a forum of like minded people is not a bad thing. sorry if you took it as more than it was intended.
    Last edited by T mon T; 10-21-2009 at 08:48 AM.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955
    Quote Originally Posted by T mon T
    mr dekerf

    i will say, you seem to take the design aspects personally, and yet you state that you were not the one who came up with the design . . . what gives ?? in this case, then, my critique is with the DNR folk who emphasised the one-dimensional aspect of the design ( near total benchcut ), not you or your work. surely this is not the first time somebody has held a critical view of a DNR trail design. as one poster above has noted, they do tend to one-dimensionality in my opinion, as well as his.

    .
    IMBA not the DNR layed the trails out for all four loops and flagged them. The trails were then constructed per IMBA trail building standards. Thanks for being involved with the early development of Mtb'ing in the Forest.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    116
    thanx mr dekerf,

    i am an old fart, it is true, but history bears remembering. greenbush was the site of one the most infuriating anti-mtn bike battles in the history of WI. imagine this scenario:

    the existing ski-trails were at that time singletrack ( pre-skate-skiing ). we had been riding them without incident, but were in the process of being kicked off the trails, led by the skiier's strong lobby with the DNR. these skiiers claimed mtn bikes were unduly damaging the trails, and were pushing that claim to the point of actually going out there with rulers and measuring the depth of our tire marks on the trail. they were winning.

    then, skate-skiing came along.

    within a year, the very same skiiers who had been measuring a bicycle tire's trail contact patch were now lobbying vehemently for the DNR to fire up an army of bulldozers to run rampant thru the trail system, widening and flattening every trail by a factor of 5 or more.

    seem crazy ?? you bet. did the DNR go for it anyway ?? the evidence is there to this day in the current skate-ski system. as unbelievable as that sounds, when the smoke cleared and bulldozers went away, the mtn bikers were STILL persecuted as the bad guys 'damaging' trails, and only after MUCH battle and lobbying allowed back onto the newly razed trails. mind you, there was no IMBA backing us up, no WORBA, no hi-speed comminications, no nothing - we were a raggedy ass band of scumbag mtn bikers out gunned and out manned and out manuevered in every conceivable way. still, that battle allowed you to be in the position you are today - and you will please forgive me if i feel my time on the front lines grants me a little license to offer a critique of a trail on a forum when asked for one.

    any this sort of thing will tend to wear a person down over the decades. good work doing what you are doing. thanx again for the nod to the past shoulders you stand on, out of relevance tho they may be. see you on the trail someday.
    Last edited by T mon T; 10-21-2009 at 09:56 AM.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    955
    Thanks for the history lesson. It is a crazy situation the way things played out. We may have lost that early battle you described by having the trails widened to accomodate skiing but you guys put up a honorable fight and established us Mtb'rs as a voice and kept us on those trails as well. It's ironic that this same group attacked us again in recent years trying to have us removed from the ski trails. They won that battle as well by getting us removed but I think we finally won the war by getting our own trail system with the new singletrack. It's a good lesson to all of us as to just how vulnerable our trail resources are.

    To you Mr. T mon T again I applaud your early efforts and even though we may not agree on how the new system should have been built I think we can both agree that the history of Mtb'ing at G.B. has came along way. I'll be the first to admit that it isn't my ideal trail as well but I am darn happy to have what we got and it bums me out went people complain when we could be in a far worse situation. In closing let us remember how far we've came and how far this new system has the potential to go in future and hopefully we can all join together the next time around and build something truly epic.

  37. #37
    =========
    Reputation: ~gomez~'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,868
    I love a happy ending.....

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    236

    Butthole Surfers

    T mon T brings up two interesting points of some contention. First, that mountain bikes are evil and destroy the terrain they ride on and second, the Wisconsin DNR ( really any state/fed government office ) who rule with a mighty fist and separately in different parts of the state/country. Another situation that arises is the powerful money backed lobbies of equestrians, atv'ers, and snowmobilers. We had major problems back in the late 80's early 90's with horse people and forest officials in southern Illinois' Shawnee Forest and our ability or right to ride many trails and help build/develop them. We simply started to maintain and fix all the horse damage and actually made the trails better for them. They liked this and our self motivated efforts and soon applauded our rights to usage. We learned new trail etiquette and learned to get along. However the forest service over ruled everything to eliminate us from the equation. They were stubborn and unrelenting ... until we managed to get a couple of younger officials to RIDE with us. Now the state boasts one of the best long trail systems in the US. It is called the River to River Trail. My point? How many DNR officials ride mountain bikes? I don't think there is hardly a mtb rider in the Wisconsin Bicycling Federation because they do absolutely nothing for the sport? The Wisconsin Tourism Dept. print an "official" bike trails guide book! Have you seen this piece of crap? Lowe's Creek is the best trail in the state? Ppphhhaa. It does not even list Underdown, Standing Rock, 9-mile, Levis-Trow, Hidden Lakes etc. as simple destinations. This is what we are battling. Ignorance. Narrow minded uneducated regressiveness. Unfortunately, I live in Taylor County( where these descriptions seem more amplified ), which has some of the best potential in the state, but can't get in the way of tree harvesting, atv-ing, hundreds of miles of snowmobile trails, ski trails, and endangered mosquitoes, but its alright to chop trees, grade, and create a gravel road ( trail? ) system thru spectacular forests, moraines, kettles, kames, and yet official(god) forbid the tiny ribbon strand we call single track. An official who wanted to cite me at 9-mile for riding out of season told me they like to close the trails early to give the animals a chance to rest before hunting season. I thought that was absurd until an official in Taylor county told me that we bikers would scare away the good potential for the bear, deer, and grouse hunters. And if I built a trail they would not work, cut, or clear around it because it is in the way of money grubbing progress. Up in the Flambeau Forest is the 70+ mile Dead Horse ATV Trail ( road! ), but when I proposed an idea, again to an official, I was shot down faster than an Iraqi scud missile. I don't get it?
    And then, one of the best mountain bike impact studies done comes out of Western Australia. Can't remember what it is called but it ends by listing worst to best or vice versa for users. Worst? Bovine, horses, atvs, humans with unleashed pets, humans( walking in groups), and rounding out as best for a trail are motorcycles, humans walking single file and bikes. What a rant, but done for the purpose of acknowledging we as a community need to band together and become a solid voice or plea for change. With all that Wisconsin has to offer why are we not an eco-tourist destination instead of the old polluting natural resource devouring manufacturing paradigm that seems to be crumbling. Start with your local delegates, politicians, and OFFICIALS by getting rid of them and bring in a new army. Oh ya I got caught poaching the single track from Greenbush to Parnell Esker, which also shoots down to Mauthe Lake, but only for horses in summer and snomos in winter. Of the many times I poached this ride I never saw any signs of other usage so my argument with the official was that I single handedly kept that trail in good shape and when asked if I could read the signs and rules I gave a long sad sigh and said I had not got past the 5th grade. The response was good enough that he let me loose and loose I became.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •