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  1. #1
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    New Mt Vision, shot bearings, not happy.

    I bought a new 2010 Mt Vision 5.6 frame from Adrenaline Bikes in May. After a few rides, I decided to try a different shock (AVA). When I removed the shock, I noticed that the upper forward pivot (where the forward link was attached to the front of the rear triangle) felt really notched, and the lower rear (where the rear link was attached to the frame) also felt a little stiff. I called Marin and told them about it, they basically seemed hesitant to believe that there could be any problem but gave a few suggestions as to what it might be (mainly to check the torque).

    I don't have any Marin dealers near me that could deal with this, so I just decided to ride it for a while and see what happens.

    Well, three months later it starts creaking a lot, and the lower rear pivot kept coming loose. Yesterday, I pulled the shock and took the links off. Upper front still very notched feeling when installed, and one of the lower rear bearings is nearly seized. I think the issue with the upper front may be that the part of the front triangle where the link fits over it is a tad too narrow, and thus the bearings in the link are getting too side loaded when I tighten it down. Not sure what is going on in the rear.

    So I figure either the bearings are bad, or there is some issue with the links/frame causing premature wear.

    So I called Marin, and explained the situation. I was hoping I could just mail the links with the bearings in so they could see that some were shot, replace them, and see if that solves it. That seems pretty reasonable to me. If that does not solve it, then they would need to look at the frame, which I was prepared to at some point strip and send to them.

    Well, they need it to come from a bike shop. From the conversation on the phone, the guy from Marin sounded like he is not at all convinced this was not my own fault (which I am quite certain it is not). They will need a bike shop to weigh in on this. Unfortunately, I am nowhere near a Marin dealer (OK, there is technically a Marin "dealer" in town, but they don't deal with MTB's, and anyone who knows the place will know why that is not an option). I have a very good relationship with my LBS, but I think this is going to be a real hassle for them, and I think it is kind of crappy to ask them to get in the middle of this with a company they don't even carry and has already expressed skepticism about the claim.

    He told me that this is why they don't like internet sales. I can understand that, but if they don't want to deal with internet sales warranties, they should not allow their stuff to be sold that way Very few shops actually carry their product, I basically had no option to buy this from anywhere within 3 hours of where I live.

    Anyway, I am very disappointed in how they are handling this.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  2. #2
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    Not good news.
    From one of previous posts isn't the rear shock different to what Adrenalin said they were supplying? Could they have been mixing and matching and have used a wrong spacer? I know there are a few sizes close to front and rear spacers which, from memory, are approx. 22mm front and 42mm rear? I guess the frame sitting around for a couple of years may not have been in clinical conditions tucked away in a cozy warehouse. Probably Marin's take on it, especially with a clearance stock retailer. As they do not sell it as a frame only,I presume Marin's warranty is for complete bike not one broken down for parts?
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 08-25-2011 at 12:54 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Not good news.
    From one of previous posts isn't the rear shock different to what Adrenalin said they were supplying? Could they have been mixing and matching and have used a wrong spacer? I know there are a few sizes close to front and rear spacers which, from memory, are approx. 22mm front and 42mm rear? I guess the frame sitting around for a couple of years may not have been in clinical conditions tucked away in a cozy warehouse. Probably Marin's take on it, especially with a clearance stock retailer. As they do not sell it as a frame only,I presume Marin's warranty is for complete bike not one broken down for parts?
    I am certain the shock has nothing to do with this for several reasons:

    1- I used another fox shock that uses the same reducers, so I used the ones that came with the stock shock.

    2- The pivots that have the worst bearings are not the ones where the shock attaches.

    3- I noticed the problem before I installed the AVA shock.

    The shock that came on it is the one that came stock on the frame according to Marin. The spacers are a perfect fit in the frame, that is not the issue.

    The warranty for the frame still applies, as it came from a Marin dealer. They got the frame from Marin when I ordered it (so any storage issues would be Marin's), stripped it and sold the frame. This does not void the warranty. If if it did, I am sure the guy from Marin would have just said that to start with. The guy on the phone never mentioned it being an issue where I got it from.

    I'm thinking at this point of just ordering the bearings from Enduro and being done with it. NONE of the bearings feel all that high quality, almost all are a little on the rough side. Not shot (except the ones I mentioned), but not particularly smooth. I don't care what they claim these to be, these are crap quality bearings. I have replaced a number of bearings in my time, I know what they are supposed to feel like.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  4. #4
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    Both my MV and WR bearings feel good.

    Have the same issue with one of my latest Hope Evo pro 2's hubs. Evo's are supposed to have upgraded Stainless Enduro bearings but the front feels pretty rough compared to all my previous pro 2 hubs.
    Like you, I don't think it's worth the hassle. I'll just replace the bearings when they die.

  5. #5
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    kapusta - I had (sort of) the same experience, with an '09 MV, and Marin also claimed their bearings hardly ever go bad, so I bought a set of Enduro suspension bearings, which are noticeably smoother, but, once the nuts are torqued to spec, they are a bit notchy too, so like you said, there seems to be some side load.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    kapusta - I had (sort of) the same experience, with an '09 MV, and Marin also claimed their bearings hardly ever go bad, so I bought a set of Enduro suspension bearings, which are noticeably smoother, but, once the nuts are torqued to spec, they are a bit notchy too, so like you said, there seems to be some side load.
    I might try and find some spacer washers that are just a tad thicker than the ones it currently uses.

    Thanks for the heads up about your results.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I am certain the shock has nothing to do with this for several reasons:

    1- I used another fox shock that uses the same reducers, so I used the ones that came with the stock shock.

    2- The pivots that have the worst bearings are not the ones where the shock attaches.

    3- I noticed the problem before I installed the AVA shock.

    The shock that came on it is the one that came stock on the frame according to Marin. The spacers are a perfect fit in the frame, that is not the issue.
    I was looking at the linkage setup, and realize that it is practically impossible for the state of the bearings to be a result of the reducers, even if they were the wrong ones.

    The bearings don't seat against the shock reducers. The shock mounting tabs are very thick (the front ones are ~17mm thick, the rear ~12mm thick). Thick enough that I think it is safe to assume they do not flex or bend under proper torque, or for that matter any torque you could apply to those bolts without snapping them. The link, with the bearings, goes on the outside if these tabs, the shock reducer/spacers go on the inside, between the tabs. If the reducers were to wide, you could not fit the shock in place, if they were too narrow, it would just have some play between the mounting tabs even after you tightened down the pivot bolts, but would make no difference to the load on the bearings.





    I bring this up because the guy on the phone mentioned this as a possible cause of my problem.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  8. #8
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    Strange...one of the things Marin touts about the bikes is the durability and lifetime warranty of the bearings. A lifetime warranty is a lifetime warranty.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulpwoody View Post
    Strange...one of the things Marin touts about the bikes is the durability and lifetime warranty of the bearings. A lifetime warranty is a lifetime warranty.
    I think The problem Kapusta is having is that he is not a bike shop and it's not a straight forward crack in a frame issue. Similar thing with warranty on cars. Sure you get 100 K warranty but you have to pay over the top dealer servicing cost over that 100k period or no warranty.When you go to sell a car your record of your own servicing is worthless without dealer stamped servicing record. Such is life.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I was looking at the linkage setup, and realize that it is practically impossible for the state of the bearings to be a result of the reducers, even if they were the wrong ones.

    The bearings don't seat against the shock reducers. The shock mounting tabs are very thick (the front ones are ~17mm thick, the rear ~12mm thick). Thick enough that I think it is safe to assume they do not flex or bend under proper torque, or for that matter any torque you could apply to those bolts without snapping them. The link, with the bearings, goes on the outside if these tabs, the shock reducer/spacers go on the inside, between the tabs. If the reducers were to wide, you could not fit the shock in place, if they were too narrow, it would just have some play between the mounting tabs even after you tightened down the pivot bolts, but would make no difference to the load on the bearings.





    I bring this up because the guy on the phone mentioned this as a possible cause of my problem.


    If the hardware is stock then there shouldn't be a fit issue. I've only had the shock out without removing the links and swingarm completely. I remember some bearing shield washers between the shock mount hardware and the links and the pivot bolt xfer load between inner bearing thru' shield washer and shock mounting hardware.

    http://www.marinbikes.com/2011/downl...ice_manual.pdf

    I presume he means if any tolerances are out in shock mounting hardware or shiels=d washers aren't seated properly then there is aside load on the bearings when the pivot bolts are tightened. they don't need to flex the tabs. yes there will be some play as tabs will not bend but also side load on bearings not designed for it.

    If this is the case fro the factory then Marin machining tolerances are out for the frame. But I can't see it being resolved without taking the frame to a Marin dealer.

    If I was you I would flick it off and get a Trance X or Reign. Your not happy with the performance of the frame on your terrain anyway. Owning a Trance X and having ridden a Reign I would say the Maestro suspension design is better suited to your Rock gardens and large root ridden trails. The MV is fantastic on smooth to light chop with big drops and G outs[ bike park stuff]. Fast sharp hits using more than 1/2 travel encounter shock speed sensitive valving ramp up as well as suspension rising rate. The maestro swallows the same stuff up but will blow through on the big stuff and is harsher on the small stuff.

    A Rockshox shock could help as they may, like their forks,have less speed sensitive valving.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    If the hardware is stock then there shouldn't be a fit issue. I've only had the shock out without removing the links and swingarm completely. I remember some bearing shield washers between the shock mount hardware and the links and the pivot bolt xfer load between inner bearing thru' shield washer and shock mounting hardware.

    http://www.marinbikes.com/2011/downl...ice_manual.pdf

    I presume he means if any tolerances are out in shock mounting hardware or shiels=d washers aren't seated properly then there is aside load on the bearings when the pivot bolts are tightened. they don't need to flex the tabs. yes there will be some play as tabs will not bend but also side load on bearings not designed for it.

    If this is the case fro the factory then Marin machining tolerances are out for the frame. But I can't see it being resolved without taking the frame to a Marin dealer.

    If I was you I would flick it off and get a Trance X or Reign. Your not happy with the performance of the frame on your terrain anyway. Owning a Trance X and having ridden a Reign I would say the Maestro suspension design is better suited to your Rock gardens and large root ridden trails. The MV is fantastic on smooth to light chop with big drops and G outs[ bike park stuff]. Fast sharp hits using more than 1/2 travel encounter shock speed sensitive valving ramp up as well as suspension rising rate. The maestro swallows the same stuff up but will blow through on the big stuff and is harsher on the small stuff.

    A Rockshox shock could help as they may, like their forks,have less speed sensitive valving.
    Yeah, I've decided that I am not keeping the frame long term. After I replace the bearings (I have a set from Enduro on order) I'm looking into selling/replacing the frame. I would feel better selling one that did not have any issues, which is why I am trying to get to the bottom of this.

    I had looked into some shock changes (re-tuning the PUSHed AVA, PUSHing the RP2, or getting a PUSHed Monarch), but in the end this is just not the frame for me, regardless of the bearings issue. While a better tuned shock might help, I'd rather put the money into a frame that is a better fit for me. Don't get me wrong, I think the design is really great for certain types of riding, just not for what I'm doing.

    I've seen that quad-link service link, but that is not the same setup as on the 2010 Mt Vision. In the diagram shown there, the pivot bearings are not associated with the either end of the shock.

    On the Mt Vision (at least the 2010) the shield washers are not between the bearings and the shock mounting hardware, they are between the bearings and the mounting tabs on the frame, so incorrectly sized shock mounting hardware will not affect the washers or the bearings. Yes, the washers being incorrectly seated could be the issue, though I have made sure that they are seated correctly. The issue could be that they were incorrectly seated to start with from Marin, but there is no way for anyone to know that at this point. I measured the washers, and they all measure 0.93 - 0.96 mm thick. I assume they are supposed to be 1.00mm, but I don't think 0.04 - 0.07 mm is going to make that much difference. I might try to get some thicker washers. I do think that the issue on the upper front pivot (a pivot that does not have a shock mount) the frame is incorrectly machined, and is a tad too narrow., I think a thicker washer could solve that. The problem could also be that the links were incorrectly machined, and the bearings are not held in quite the right position.

    Any of these possibilities can easily be determined without me having to drive almost 3 hours to a Marin dealer, or paying some non-dealer to deal with it. I have digital calipers and could easily check these things if they would work with me. I even offered to ship the bearings and/or the frame to them at my expense. Unfortunately, they have chosen to leave me on my own on this. This is completely, 100% their choice. This CAN be resolved without bringing it to a Marin dealer.

    What is frustrating me in this is that even though there are countless possible causes for the shot bearings (frame, links, washers, bearings, torque on the bolts), ALL of them should be warrantied"

    • If the washers were seated incorrectly, it should be warrantied.
    • If the washers are the wrong size, it should be warrantied.
    • If the bolts were initially torqued incorrectly at the factory, it should be warrantied.
    • If the frame mounts are out of alignment, it should be warrantied.
    • If the links are out of alignment, it should be warrantied.
    • If the the bearings are just defective, it should be warrantied.


    It's not like this is a situation that may, or may not, be a warranty issue, and they need a shop to determine if it really is. It is unquestionably a warranty issue. Further, I've offered to send them the frame and/or bearings at my own expense, so again, this CAN be resolved without bringing it to a dealer.

    My hope right now is that this was due simply to a bad set of bearings, as the new ones from Enduro will solve that.

    This really makes me question the "lifetime warranty" on their bearings. If they are hemming and hawing this much at replacing the bearings on a practically new frame, listing all the possible other causes other than the bearings themselves, what is going to happen if I try to get them replaced 3 years down the road?
    Last edited by kapusta; 09-07-2011 at 09:20 AM.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  12. #12
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    I wish you luck

    I wish you luck, I had a 2006 Rift Zone that they left a spacer out of. I tightened it down to the spec, it would loosen, I tightened etc. Turns out, when I finally dissasembled it to clean the pivots, they left out a spacer and that bent the linkage when I tightened it. I had to pay to ship the frame back to them, then I had to pay shipping back to me. Cost me $140 in shipping AND they didn't replace the main triangle or the swingarm. The linkage had rubbed through a quarter inch of the weld on the swingarm, but they said it was within specs.

    I continued to ride the frame for a few more years, and it finally cracked earlier this year while completely covered by their warranty. They offered to replace the swingarm, but nothing would be done with the main triangle, so the frame would be out of warranty within a few months, OR I could pay them $450 or so for a 2008 frame. This was in 2011.

    I think Marin's warranty is crap and I certainly will not buy another, and I tell anyone that will listen these stories. I hope Marin knows that they are losing lots of customers due to their poor treatment of warranty issues.

    Joe

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