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  1. #1
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    New question here. Mount Vision & Pushed RS Monarch

    Has anyone thought about or done this yet? I have been thinking about it, but can't make it happen for a few. The first reports going around seem to be very good about th eperformance of the ushed Monarchs.

  2. #2
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    or has any had their Fox RP2 / RP23 pushed?

    I just feel like I am not getting all the performance out of the bike as I should. To push my Fox or to buy a pushed Monach that is the question.

  3. #3
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    Swapping out for a later fox with boost valve may alllow you to go further in to the stroke? I bought a Wolf Ridge frame instead.They're dirt cheap at the moment and have virtually the same geometry[ except seat post angle] to 2011 XM8.

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    I think a wolf ridge would be too much bike for what I need. thanks though.

  5. #5
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    Lurking for pushed '10 5.7

  6. #6
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    I am tempted to try out the PUSHed Monarchs on my MV also, and have emailed PUSH about it but haven't heard back. My concerns primarily center around the extreme ramp up shock rate the quad-link has and whether this would work well with the PUSHed shocks. It seems most "short link" bikes have more balanced U shaped shock rates compared to the quad-link.

  7. #7
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    I talked to Daren for a few minutes and he did suggest the Monarch if I was "planning to keep the bike for a while." He also said he has not don emany shocks for Marins. This is interesting about the big ramp up at the end of the stroke. That is what gives it a bottomless feel? I never feel like I bottom the shock out. Actually I am not sure I EVER get full travel.

    I think I am going to have to pull the trigger on a Monarch.

    edit: JZ, Please keep us informed when you get a response.
    Last edited by Flboy; 01-04-2011 at 02:21 PM.

  8. #8
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    Yep, the huge ramp up is exactly why these bikes don't ever seem to bottom out. I run a ridiculously low pressure in my shock and have yet come close to popping off the O-ring, even on good sized drops. My gut feeling is the new PUSHed Monarchs, with their bigger pistons and oil volume should still be an upgrade over the RP23, but it would be nice to get some confirmation from Darren.

  9. #9
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    Maybe he is investigating the MV's to give us both an accurate answer.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayz28
    Yep, the huge ramp up is exactly why these bikes don't ever seem to bottom out. I run a ridiculously low pressure in my shock and have yet come close to popping off the O-ring, even on good sized drops. My gut feeling is the new PUSHed Monarchs, with their bigger pistons and oil volume should still be an upgrade over the RP23, but it would be nice to get some confirmation from Darren.
    If you run too lower pressure the links work in the zone where the links effectively shorten the swingarm and ramp up the travel. I find 25% sag with a little tweak in pressure either side best.Any lower and the ride gets harsher.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz
    If you run too lower pressure the links work in the zone where the links effectively shorten the swingarm and ramp up the travel. I find 25% sag with a little tweak in pressure either side best.Any lower and the ride gets harsher.
    The leverage ratio curve for the MV actually falls pretty hard through all of its travel, not just after 25%. I feel the lower pressure actually lets me use more of it, even though I'm working further down the ratio curve. I'm running about 33% sag, right around the point where the rear axle path turns positive and chain tension goes to near zero. I feel that gives me the best compromise currently for the type of riding I like, which is slow going up, fast down

  12. #12
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    I still haven't heard back from Push Industries. Man, I want to know what Darren thinks about the MV and the Monarch.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayz28
    The leverage ratio curve for the MV actually falls pretty hard through all of its travel, not just after 25%. I feel the lower pressure actually lets me use more of it, even though I'm working further down the ratio curve. I'm running about 33% sag, right around the point where the rear axle path turns positive and chain tension goes to near zero. I feel that gives me the best compromise currently for the type of riding I like, which is slow going up, fast down
    I think the axle path traces out a U-shape movement rather than a curve.The first part of the stroke the axle path is rearward and is the zone where you get chain growth. Past that chain growth is neutral and the chainstay is effectively shortening and increasing your leverage ratio. The mt vision has a pretty generous ratio of 2.4 [ 50 mm stroke for 120 mm of travel] I find many have a fixation about not using full travel.With that ratio, I think they should ignore that and work in zone where the air shock doesn't ramp up quickly and , concentrate on the top of the stroke, not the bottom.They should set the bike up so the sag is in the zone where the axle moves rearward[ approx 25%]. That way it is nice and plush on the small stuff and moves in to the next zone when you peddle over big hits[where there is no chain growth interference][ and will take your further on the big down hill hits. I find setting down in 30% zone is noticeably harsher as it ramps up very fast[ combined linkage and the air shock] especially when hitting tree roots etc. There is a 5 psi zone around 25% sag which I find is the place to be on both my Mt Vision and my wolf ridge.

    I think VPP linkage bikes are also designed so the sag is best set at the neutral point in the linkages subtle S shape movement. I think they also designed to have a bit of chain growth inthe first part of the movement.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 01-06-2011 at 02:33 PM.

  14. #14
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    gvs_nz:

    I do admit I have a fixation on using full travel, but it's only because I want to get what I paid for

    Although the axle path is U-shaped, the leverage ratio traces a steadily declining curve. It never increases, save for the very last 4mm of travel, which we never hit. This is possible because the virtual pivot path compensates for the wheel path through travel. Even within the first 25% of reward travel, the leverage ratio is dropping like stone. The MV starts at a very high 3.9 and drops to 2.98 at 30mm (25% sag). That's almost a 50% drop of leverage ratio in just the first 25% of travel (the MV bottoms out at 1.89). Looking at the whole curve, the drop rate actually slows down some as the suspension progresses deeper into travel, losing the remaining 50% over about 80mm.

    What I've found is due to the very high leverage early in travel, I have to run way more pressure than normal to keep myself at 25% sag. This increased pressure makes the whole ride harsher especially as the leverage ratio drops precipitously through travel. When I reduce pressure and run more sag, I find that later in travel the ride is more plush as the dropping leverage ratio is better able to compress the shock. Since I don't need the added pedaling efficiency from chain tension for my type of riding, I gladly gave that up for a more active suspension. I did have to dial up the rebound speed to prevent the rear from packing and causing a harsher ride. Maybe that is what you are experiencing?

    FWIW, Santa Cruz no longer uses the S shaped axle path for their VPP bikes. Their claim to fame now is that inverted U leverage ratio and lots of chain growth late.

  15. #15
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    I'm riding an 09. Can't say i've seen the leverage ratio figures through the range for it. So I can't argue with you there. If your figures are correct, all the more reason for using less sag and working in the start of the stroke where the air spring is more progressive and the lever ratio is higher. A dropping leverage ratio at the end of the links travel actually makes it harder to compress the shock, not easier. You are compounding that by running the shock at a lower pressure in a zone where it ramps up very quickly. it is a little counterintuitive but I feel there is a sweet spot, with less sag, where the pressure matches the leverage ratio better, giving a sweeter ride. It's not the only bike where I have found more sag works to a point[ some set ups seem more linear with less sag]. On this design it seems to be more linear earlier on in the stroke than others.
    I've used more sag and the rear end just feels dead and harsh very early on in the travel. I find at higher pressures it does rebound very quick and launches you a bit.[ I keep the rebound low as it improves low end feel]

    The rear shock pressure I use to get 25% sag is similar to nearly all current generation bikes I have used except the wolf ridge and some earlier single pivot designs.

    I made the mistake of running the wolf ridge at the same lower pressure as my Mt vision when I first got it and was most disappointed at how harsh it felt. I now use a higher pressure at about 25% sag and it's a vast improvement.

    I can compare back to back with a Trance x. I've got both a high and low volume shock can for the Trance. The Trance x has closer to 130mm travel[ no air in shock] the 09 MV has closer to 110mm. If I run the high volume can on the trance I use about the same pressures in both[ LV can uses lower pressure]. Over 4 ft drops I bottom out the Trance x and have broken a shock bolt. Over the same drops the Mv has never bottomed. At that same pressures the MV is very, almost over active on the small stuff, has a supportive mid stroke and you can really feel the terrain interacting with the shock. The Trance is a steady eddy with anti squat kind of feel to it, not as hyper active but works fine. They both feel similar mid stroke and feel like they have similar travel but MV feels like it has deeper pockets on the big stuff[130mm plus]and the Trance is slightly better pedalling over sharp edge hits. Coasting they are about the same.
    If I lower the pressure on the Trance it kind of doesn't really care just blows through it's travel on bigger hits.It's much more forgiving on shock set up.
    The Mv on the other hand has a sweet spot. Any lower and sharp edge hits ramp up very quickly and it is flat and feels like it only has 100mm of travel. Any higher and it starts stiffening up low and medium hits.

    I don't know if the VPP 2 platform has chain growth at the end of it's travel [usually undesirable] . What I have read is Initially they have a declining shock rate, for better small bump compliance. This makes the bike feel like it has more travel than it really does[ MV uses chain growth]. Then the curve flattens out at its bottom before rising again as travel increases. This makes the rear suspension feel more firm as the bike approaches the end of its travel in order to resist bottoming out [aka Mt vision].
    The principle is still the same as VPP 1 with the linkages swinging opposite to each other through the range of suspension travel.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 01-12-2011 at 05:50 PM.

  16. #16
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    Here is a little info from Jason @ Marin Bikes regarding the XV RP23 from a post a while back. He mentions the spring curve. Not sure if this is relative to what you guys are talking about. I still want to hear back from Darren @ Push Industries.

    "Hello Rekibtm,
    One of the primary design features of the QUAD suspension system is the variable leverage ratio. Your Mount Vision has a much higher leverage ratio at the beginning of the travel that it does at the end of the travel. This effect is called "ramp up". The standard Fox air sleeve also has a naturally progressive spring curve. The XV sleeve has a more linear, or "flatter" spring curve. When this XV sleeve is used on suspension designs with a more naturally linear spring curve (or designs with regressive, or "falling rate" spring curves), the suspension feel could be said to "hammock" during certain parts of the travel. However, due to the QUAD link's natural Rising Rate, the XC Sleeve actually allows the suspension to react more efficiently, and remain compliant, further into it's travel.

    If you were looking for a much firmer ride without sacrificing small bump sensitivity you could switch to the standard air sleeve on your Mount Vision, but you will definitely notice the exaggerated "ramp up", and will not get the full use of the available 120mm of travel.

    I hope this answers your question.

    Have fun!

    Jason
    Marin Bikes
    "

  17. #17
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    gvs_nz:

    I guess we'll have to disagree here. Yes the suspension is harder to compress deeper into its travel than at the beginning, but the "rate" of this drop is not linear. It actually decreases over the entire curve. The last 2/3s of travel actually drops about the same amount of leverage as the first 1/3 as I mentioned previously. To me this is the intended "zone" for riding, where the first 1/3 is the intended "efficiency" zone, which incidentally coincides with the range where the MV has chain tension. My gut feeling is the differences we are experiencing are due to differences in our riding styles as opposed to specific shock tuning. I tend to prioritize my suspension setup for the downhill side of the ride and don't hit too many technical climbs. The suspension did "pack" very easily with less air pressure which felt harsh over fast/choppy terrain, but once I dialed up the rebound it felt nice and plush.

    BTW, you may want to grab a copy of Linkage and check out the suspension curves and forces for yourself. It's much easier to see the differences when comparing 2 plots than to describe in text You'll also see that VPP suspensions use chain growth through much of its travel as well as the characteristic inverted "u" leverage ratio you described.

  18. #18
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    Yeh that's good info.
    When the sag is set below 25% it appears you ride more in the zone where both the links are in a rising rate and the air can is rising rapidly at the end of it's stroke. Kind of like riding on a rubber bump stop. With less sag, the greater leverage designed at the start of the links travel can act on a more progressive portion of the air can curve,at the start and mid travel. With high sag it just blows through that zone or it is all wasted in sag.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flboy
    Here is a little info from Jason @ Marin Bikes regarding the XV RP23 from a post a while back. He mentions the spring curve. Not sure if this is relative to what you guys are talking about. I still want to hear back from Darren @ Push Industries.
    I actually tried swapping in a regular sleeve RP2 from my wife's bike just for fun, and it definitely felt firmer than with the XV RP23. It makes sense to me that the huge ramp up suspension curve would require a more linear shock. Maybe we should be using a coil shock?
    Maybe we should forward this thread to Darren so he can set us straight already.

  20. #20
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    I use the identical set up for My Wolf Ridge as I do for my MV. For me it is optimum for all round as well as down hill. But 5psi less for down hill duties is better.
    I can't argue with you about the zone of chain growth being the efficiency zone and small bump zone. But , I find with 25% sag the MV is still much more compliant on small bumps than anything I have ever ridden. You don't want chain growth when you hit the big stuff and are still pedalling. So I believe the sag should be set up so you are riding just on the edge of the chain growth zone so when you start hitting square edge bumps there is a bit of chain growth to take the edge off the bump and then it can move through without inhibiting pedalling. So it should sag to about the end point of chain growth. That way for majority of pedalling is in or just through chain growth zone.
    If the rate is dropping faster at the start of the travel you want to be riding higher in the spring curve as it is not linear either. I'm not sure why you want to be riding in a zone where the leverage ratio is decreasing[ even at a slower rate] and the air curve is increasing rapidly at a far greater rate.
    I believe the rates match better higher in the shock travel.
    That's just seat of the pants testing as I haven't seen any graphs or figures.

    I agree a coil or bigger air sleeve shock like Cane creek[ doesn't fit] would benefit but I don't have a problem with quantity or quality of the travel. Just like I don't care I don't get full travel out of all my Fox forks. It very good quality travel that I do get.

    I believe you can fiddle with IFP pressures in the Monarch so that my help.

    I read somewhere that the VPP Blur LT2 has about 17mm of chain growth. Not too sure what part of the travel. More likely designed to be mostly in the small bump pedalling zone like the MV.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 01-07-2011 at 01:08 PM.

  21. #21
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    Not sure why I never thought to check with Marin on shock setup on their bikes, but it looks like they do agree with my assessment:

    http://www.marinbikes.com/2011/downl...arin_Bikes.pdf

    "Please note: 25% sag setting gives a firmer ride feel and 30% sag setting
    gives a plusher ride feel"

  22. #22
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    You can read the 12.5 mm and 15mm stuff off your frame. Pretty much generic stuff for nubes. I discounted it after the first couple of test rides. At 15mm It feels softer on the climbs and pebble size terrain. Any sharp edge hits and it ramps up too quickly.

    Note the initial set up says 1 psi / 1 lb rider weight. For my weight that sets it at or above 25% sag, depending on pump accuracy. At 12.5 mm of sag I am about 0.92 to 0.95 psi / lb rider weight depending on what pump I use. I gather from forums most ride at or about 0.95 psi / lb which,if linear for various rider weights, is about 25% sag.

    For all I know we could even be running the same sag, and as you say, we probably have different riding styles and terrain. Mine is my training bike so every time I ride it, it gets hammered over all terrain. I do a lot of miles on it and it takes the punishment well. It begs to be ride hard and is designed as a xc/endurance bike so that's probably why they recommend 25% sag. But even so, It feels more than capable as a 120mm travel bike compared to others I have ridden. That's why I say don't get hung up on the travel. It feels as good as it gets for a 120mm bike even though you don't get full travel.

    You may need to step up to a 150mm bike if you predominately ride down hill. Wolf ridges are dirt cheap at the moment and you get that little bit extra from a 140 bike[ 150 is a better step up for downhill stuff]. But you still don't get full travel from them either.

    Just another note to in comparison to my Trance . The Trance x stiffens up significantly under braking compared to the Mount Vision. Compared to some frames you are gaining significant usable travel on the MV under braking.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 01-07-2011 at 09:41 PM.

  23. #23
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    "Maybe we should be using a coil shock?
    Maybe we should forward this thread to Darren so he can set us straight already."
    -Jayz28

    I did read some where that the Monarch functions like a coil shock more than any other inline air shocks aavailable. This is why I am so intrested in a pushed Monarch. I wish we could Darren's input on this.

  24. #24
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    You may also be able to get something like a Manitou evolver isx 6 very cheap. Supposed to be ultra adjustable. Piggy back should fit right way or upside down under the links.

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    Still haven't heard back from Darren. I think it's safe to say PUSH hasn't accumulated as much data on the quad-link as some others. I may order one anyway just to give it a try, although I'm hoping they make the Monarch Plus available soon.

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