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  1. #1
    KVW
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    Help! MV derailleur / drop-out bolts stripping before reaching torque rating

    Hey fellas, having issues with these replaceable drop outs.


    It says max torque for those drop-out & derailleur hanger is 25nm. That's surprisingly high considering crankset bolts are only around 12-14nm. See pic:





    Here's the thing, I set my torque wrench as high as it will go which is 24nm but before I can even get close, I can already tell the allen is starting to spin within the bolt head rounding it (I stopped of course, before I did and really bad damage). WTF? so maybe it's a Torx bit instead of an allen (5mm), so I use the best fitting torx bit (t30) - same thing, it starts spining within the head before I can even get close which only adds even more damage.

    So guys, how were you guys able to torque those bolts down so hard? At this point, I have to resort to just tightening the best i can with some blue loctite, but i know it isn't anywhere close to 25nm.

    Maybe my bolts were already a bit damaged since it was an OEM take off and I just need to get some new bolts. Considering it's such a special shaped bolt and receiver, I know I won't be able to just walk down to a hardware store for a replacement... have any of you found replacement bolts for your frame? Did you have to contact Marin directly or is there a 3rd party from which I can get these bolts?

    thanks in advanced.
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

  2. #2
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    You should be able to see if the bolt has some damage right? I had my dropout out and put 'm back on with no problems. Just using te right # allen key.

  3. #3
    KVW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betzel View Post
    You should be able to see if the bolt has some damage right? I had my dropout out and put 'm back on with no problems. Just using te right # allen key.
    Well that's what I'm thinking, the bolts sort of looked like torx bit when I first looked at them but maybe that's because they were already slightly damaged beforehand which gave them that look (if you know what I mean). let me see if i can pull off a macro picture.

    edit - here they are:



    slightly different angle.




    So what do you think? Does it look like these heads have been worked too hard to reach 25nm?
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

  4. #4
    KVW
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    derailuer side definitely looks worse.

    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

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    From the looks of it I would say they are quite severe damaged.... If this is torx than it is a very bad torx also. The lines in the bolts are not even so that should rule out torx....... It is strange though that all bolts are like this.....

    Very odd......

    Do you still have warranty? Otherwise a few new bolts won't break the bank i guess.

  6. #6
    KVW
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    Yah I'll shoot an email to the ebay vendor who sold me the frame. It's an OEM take off which according to their ad, since they are an authorized Marin dealer, the frame is supposed to be under warranty. I don't know if it covers this but it's worth a shot.

    That leads me back to my other question, can these bolts only be found directly from Marin themselves? I know you can buy derailleur hangers for most popular bukes from a 3rd party, does anyone make these bolts? Better yet has anyone found a compatible bolt you can get at a hardware store?

    I cant help but think, if they are proprietary, it can be an issue down the line if Marin stops carrying them, goes out of business, or simply charges an arm and a leg for them (tends to happen if it's indeed proprietary design).
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

  7. #7
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    I stripped mine and they sent me a set of six crank bolts to replace the ones I stripped plus two extra for the helluvit I guess. I still haven't replace the stripped ones because they are tight enough. They stripped just before 25nm. I have thought about replacing them with a torx version though.

  8. #8
    KVW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flboy View Post
    I stripped mine and they sent me a set of six crank bolts to replace the ones I stripped plus two extra for the helluvit I guess. I still haven't replace the stripped ones because they are tight enough. They stripped just before 25nm. I have thought about replacing them with a torx version though.
    There's two different versions? Where can I buy the torx version?

    Btw, I contacted BetterBikes @ ebay, the vendor I purchased from, and they are sending me a set of 4 replacement bolts free of charge. Real stand up guys. However I also contacted Marin directly via email from their website and I got crickets. Not a good sign in the integrity of this bike company. So BetterBikes... good. Marin ... still on the fence, I'll attempt to reach out again.

    Anyways the build is just about done and my initial test rides are straight ear to ear grins!!! I can't believe how fun this bike is to ride even just around the neighborhood.





    I have a suspicious feeling my 29er hard tail is seriously going to start gathering some dust once this is 100% complete. I REALLY do not see what all the hype is about 29ers - I sort of regret being talked in to and convinced to buying one when I got back in to the sport last summer after a 13yr break. It was such a huge investment of money too, which I know even if I sell it I wont get hardly any of it back. Who knows, maybe this is just the thrill of the newness if of this bike talking...


    One more thing, is this normal? This is a brand new, right out of the box 2012 rockshox reba RLT that I bought for this bike. I mean I had to cut the steerer tube and install a star nut and everything so I know it's never been used. Look at all that crap all over the stanchions after just a 10 minute ride around the block!




    I'm hoping this will eventually fade... I can't imagine the shock oil lasting long if it keeps losing this much after just a 10-15 min ride.
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

  9. #9
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    I've had good service from Bob's/ Better bikes in the past. I have had replies back from Marin before. More than I can say for Commencal.
    They are a scream to ride on the right trails. Make some 29er's feel like a tank. They are nice looking bikes too.

    I wouldn't sweat the fork. Probably just assembly lube.

  10. #10
    KVW
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I've had good service from Bob's/ Better bikes in the past. I have had replies back from Marin before. More than I can say for Commencal.
    They are a scream to ride on the right trails. Make some 29er's feel like a tank. They are nice looking bikes too.

    I wouldn't sweat the fork. Probably just assembly lube.
    Sucks to hear that bout Commencal. They make some really tempting affordable frames.

    Oh is biker bob and better bikes the same people? Biker bob is who I bought the rest of the components I needed to build this bike. If that's the case, then they got all my money. And Yah biker bob was great help and got me the fork, dropper post and front wheel for a great price. Probably will go with him again when i get the itch to do the rear straight thru axle upgrade (will need a new wheel).
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

  11. #11
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    Dude - - I see now that you own a Mount Vision.

    You should just 650b that frame and not worry about the Jamis in your thread in the 650b forum. :thumb:

    If you need help with wheels and whatnot maybe I can help out with a set of mine at a fair and reasonable price.

    Best,

    Mark

  12. #12
    KVW
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMcG View Post
    Dude - - I see now that you own a Mount Vision.

    You should just 650b that frame and not worry about the Jamis in your thread in the 650b forum. :thumb:

    If you need help with wheels and whatnot maybe I can help out with a set of mine at a fair and reasonable price.

    Best,

    Mark
    Ha! I didn't know this bike was a good candidate for a 650b wheel conversion.

    Been looking at 650b compatible forks since I got this new idea in my head and I don't think this brand new fork I just bought for this bike is compatible.

    I'm still interested in the Jamis so I can do something with my 29er parts but I might be interested in your 650b wheelset anyways.
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

  13. #13
    KVW
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    Just thought I'd post the finished product. Well almost...

    Plan to trim down that crazy nest of hydraulic brake lines. Oh and a 650b front tire on the front.

    I thought it was too nice to ride at first. I finally take it out for a spin... Ended up making a goofy low speed fall... bike stays attached to me via toe clip and goes down with me, grinded and scuffed one of my favorite aspects of this bike: Those beautiful, most amazing-feeling brakes I've ever felt! ARGH!!! Popped that flawless "newness", must-not-scratch cherry in the first 3 minutes of my ride. Oh well, at least got that out of the way.









    Last edited by KVW; 02-27-2012 at 10:26 PM.
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

  14. #14
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    I know what you are talking about now. Just changed my QR-dropouts to the Maxle kit. Da#$ those original bolts are tight!! I had sparks coming from one set of bolts......... It is an allen-key, not torx, i know now because i have tried..... Fortunately i could use the same bolts again with a drop of Locktite i hope they stay in place. I also believe i have not reached the max torque....then....it is a 'max' torque figure. Maybe less Nm is fine also........ I still have the new Maxle bolt and i will keep them apart. Next time i want to loosen the now used bolts will be the last time i guess (before they die)...

  15. #15
    KVW
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    ^^^

    Yah I'm probably going to order the same kit for some future upgrade one day. In the meantime i did this to hopefully prevent any catastrophic failure, if the thread lock does unexpectedly break free one day.



    I still think it would be better to find a bolt/nut combo alternative at a hardware store. Maybe get them in grade 8 so they're not so fragile. It won't be easy, they sort of look like over sized chainring bolts and I can't say I've ever seen something like that outside of the bike industry. But that will be a mission to revisit some other day.
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

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    I will have the same solution as you, use some binders to make sure they will not loosen up completely.

    I have no idea if you can find bolts like this in a hardware store...they are kind of specific..... Wel...i hope i never have to loosen the bolts again

    Strange thing is that on my former MV the bolts actually never gave me a problem. They came loose easily, and torqued them down easily.

  17. #17
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    I snapped the threads off my bolt. Talked to Marin first, they said 25nm is the about the same as tightening as hard as I could by hand. Too strong I guess, dont have a torque wrench. The bolts on my '10 AT are definitely torx but an Allen wrench will fit in there and strip it out if you are not careful. Marin says the bolts are custom made.

  18. #18
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    Torx...allen...i'm confused. I will have a look at the spare bolts i have lying around. Did you ask if Marin sells these bolts separatly? I have a spare kit, but i imagine that having even another set for a few $ would not be luxury.

  19. #19
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    From the looks of it the Maxle-kit bolts are really an allen-key. They seem to differ from the orignal bolts.....very strange

  20. #20
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    My Maxle-kit (i just saw) has 15Nm of torque written on them btw.

  21. #21
    KVW
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    Interesting about the 15nm rating vs 25nm. I bet that's the point to where you can actually tighen them before stressing the head and they secretly corrected it. At 15nm it's probably a necessity to use locktite!

    So it looks like my Marin is down. I just came back from a night ride and this happened:





    Not Marin's fault - I was climbing a hill on my crankset's big ring, and while climbing I was dropping to the front middle ring while increasing to a bigger cog in the rear. Well because I'm using a medium cage RD, I don't have enough chain length to be on big-front/big-rear cog combination. This is why I was shifting down to the middle cog at the same time! Well the chain tension didn't allow the FD to drop it in time and my pedaling came to a sudden stop and that is the result.

    Sigh, I guess it's a hard lesson learned: if you're going to run a medium cage, it's better to side with an overly loose chain than a chain too short.

    Nother pic, this time with the RD off. It's bent backwards and inwards towards the cogs!




    I was able to bash it back away from the rear cogs but not back down (It was surprisingly hard to bask it back btw), but it did allow me to remount the RD and limp the bike home.

    So now the question is...

    Should I buy the maxle kit?

    If I do, I'd have to get a new rear wheel that excepts a rear thru-axle so then it leads to my 2nd question, should I get a 650b rear wheel or stick with a 26' wheel? Right now it it only has a 650b in the front.

    And a 3rd question is, do you think my rear derailleur is messed up as well? Visually I can't tell.

    Sigh... This is going to be costly. Guess all this Marin downtime will give me time to concentrate on the Jamis sixfifty b2 bike build up so i can get back to riding again.
    Last edited by KVW; 03-22-2012 at 12:44 AM.
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

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    Wow...that looks very nasty! You were lucky you didn't hurt yourself!

    If you want a Maxle kit than you have to see if the hub is compatable. I have just ordered black(colored) dropouts (142x12) from the Marin AT (and a Shimano XTR thru axle). So if you check compatability you could choose between the complete Maxle kit (135x12) or X12 (142x12).

    p.s.....mine new (only mounted) Maxle kit could be up for sale soon, but i guess if you buy it in the States it will be cheaper anyway (postage costs).....

  23. #23
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    I've bent them before when I've picked up stray branches in the chain. If you've got a blow torch [ I use a little Mapp gas torch]give it some heat while in a vice and tap it back with a hammer. Otherwise derailleur.com sells them.

    Wouldn't worry about the maxle kit unless you really think you will do it often.

  24. #24
    KVW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betzel View Post
    Wow...that looks very nasty! You were lucky you didn't hurt yourself!

    If you want a Maxle kit than you have to see if the hub is compatable. I have just ordered black(colored) dropouts (142x12) from the Marin AT (and a Shimano XTR thru axle). So if you check compatability you could choose between the complete Maxle kit (135x12) or X12 (142x12).

    p.s.....mine new (only mounted) Maxle kit could be up for sale soon, but i guess if you buy it in the States it will be cheaper anyway (postage costs).....
    There's two different versions?

    I thought the only one available is this one here:
    Marin Bikes - Quad XC and Quad Trail SRAM Thru-Axle Maxle Kit

    So you're saying there's a wider 142x12 version? How does that work?

    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I've bent them before when I've picked up stray branches in the chain. If you've got a blow torch [ I use a little Mapp gas torch]give it some heat while in a vice and tap it back with a hammer. Otherwise derailleur.com sells them.

    Wouldn't worry about the maxle kit unless you really think you will do it often.
    I'd be scared of the strength of the part of I bent it back. That and I wouldn't trust myself to bend it back true and straight. I'll check out derailleur.com though! Thanks!
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

  25. #25
    KVW
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    damn, not very cheap at 54 bucks, are they... assuming this is the right one: Derailleur Hanger #263



    Maxle kit is only a little more and you probably get a fresh set of bolts which I'll need... Hmm...
    "Single track is for pansies!
    I blast down a mountain once, and in my wake, lies a new single track for the rest of you."-sm

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