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  1. #1
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    Anyone try the XV2 high volume air cannister on a Mt Vision?

    Like many people I am reading about on this board, I don't ever see the last ~5mm of shock travel on my mt vision. Mine (2010) came with the RP2 with the XV1 high volume canister. I swapped it for a PUSHed AVA, but it looks like things are about the same in terms of travel, though it does feel a bit better. Still playing with pressures.

    I feels to me like the suspension is just too progressive (with the typical compromises that come with that), and either a coil or higher volume air shock is the way to go.

    I found that fox makes a bigger air canister (XV2) than the one that they spec (XV1). Anyone try this larger air can?

    I am trying to understand why Marin did not spec the larger can to begin with
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Are you asking about the performance of the XV2 in general, or are you more concerned with getting the extra 5mm of travel?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulpwoody View Post
    Are you asking about the performance of the XV2 in general, or are you more concerned with getting the extra 5mm of travel?
    Performance in general. I assume getting more usable travel would be part of that, since there would be less ramp up at the end of the stroke. Just wondering if indeed it makes much difference, and if so, what the rest of the travel feels like. From playing around with air can volumes in the past, I think this is the way to go, but I would like others' actual experience if they have tried this.

    I don't obsess over getting full travel as long as it feels good. I never come remotely close to full travel on my Pike but it feels great, even set at 125mm when I rarely see over 110mm of that. But the Mt Vision is coming up real short in feel for a 120mm bike, IMO. My last frame MKIII was 125 or 130 in the rear, but it had all the suspension I wanted. Felt like WAY more travel (like an inch or more) than this bike on larger bumps and on drops.

    I rode the AVA again, and it actually uses slightly less travel (with more sag) except on drops and g-outs in which case it is about the same as the RP2. It does feel better, feels more controlled and I can run a little more sag and still pedals well. Still not where I want it to be on larger hits, though. The AVA was PUSHed for a different bike that needed a tad bit of bottoming control, so I may be able to get that tuned out.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  4. #4
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    Well, my experience is on my Attack Trail, so I don't know if a XV2 would feel different on a 120 bike. Here's what I can tell you about MY experience with the XV2.

    I love it. The shock I got was tuned specifically for the AT, so it rocks. Very smooth on the rough stuff and very nice on the drops, and whatever pedal platform they have going on is great. I never use the pro pedal unless I'm on the road riding to the ride.

    For me, there's always some unused travel, because there aren't that many big drops here, but I run though the usable travel, no problem. I don't know if any bike out there would use ALL of the travel all the time. I guess that would be a frequent bottom out situation.

    I guess the XV2 would be a softer shock because of the extra volume? I know compared to a regular float, it's night and day.

    Hope that helped.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulpwoody View Post
    Well, my experience is on my Attack Trail, so I don't know if a XV2 would feel different on a 120 bike. Here's what I can tell you about MY experience with the XV2.

    I love it. The shock I got was tuned specifically for the AT, so it rocks. Very smooth on the rough stuff and very nice on the drops, and whatever pedal platform they have going on is great. I never use the pro pedal unless I'm on the road riding to the ride.

    For me, there's always some unused travel, because there aren't that many big drops here, but I run though the usable travel, no problem. I don't know if any bike out there would use ALL of the travel all the time. I guess that would be a frequent bottom out situation.

    I guess the XV2 would be a softer shock because of the extra volume? I know compared to a regular float, it's night and day.

    Hope that helped.
    Was the XV2 can the stock configuration, or did the bike originally come with a smaller can?
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Be interesting to see how an XV2 can goes. I was maybe going to machine one up myself at one stage but I suspect you may also need a shock with higher low speed compression which does not affect high speed compression.Later boost valve shocks may be the way to go?The XV2 may induce more mid stroke wallow to get that little extra travel?But combined with running a little less sag then you may be on to something? With the XV1 on my 09 MV I personally find that there is a sweet spot about 20 to 25% sag which works better than 28% to 30% end of the scale. MV leverage ratio is very linear [ straight line]and drops like a stone from very high to very low. It's all about pedaling efficiency on these bikes.They use initial high leverage ratio balanced by high pivot in to give that floaty efficient feel .This leaves a region in the middle of the stroke were it could wallow if you aren't pedaling hard as that's where they use max pedal kick back to support the natural shock wallow instead of raising the rate like some designs. If you have your sag set in that area or you ride in a region of wallow then rapid rising rate. Either way you still don't get full travel so best to set it up so you get better quality travel with less sag.
    My Wolf Ridge has a different leverage ratio profile, still fairly linear with a rise in ratio at the bottom of the stroke and a more linear overall suspension profile. So I can set it at lower 28% sag.
    The AT has the least radical leverage ratio profile of all the Marin bikes and is completely different to the earlier Mv's but close to the 2011 MV. The AT leverage ratio profile looks similar to a Ibis Mojo HD[ bell shaped curve]. The ratio starts moderately high[ small bump compliance] then drops to it's lowest at 100mm travel to counter the air shock mid stroke wallow then rises again at the end to counter the rising rate of the air shock. This gives a more moderate suspension rate profile than the MV without the mid stroke wallow and extreme high rate at the end of the stroke. I'd be surprised if you couldn't use all the travel of a AT.

    I enjoy riding my MV because of the character the suspension gives it. Lush initial travel but stiffens in acceleration and out of the saddle. Lean back going down hill or doing drops and you ride on that last high suspension rate zone like riding on a rubber bump stop. The high initial pivot means the frame hinges in the middle slackening the head angle exiting a bermed corner and manual off a lip. It's just fun to ride fast. I can never ride it slow, even when I intend to.The downside is the fast ramp up over tree roots after the initial rear wheel travel and you only get to use 110mm of the travel.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 06-17-2011 at 02:06 PM.

  7. #7
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    That's quite the detailed description there!

    The XV2 is what is stocked on the new 2011 AT's, and I special ordered the shock since it didn't come with one from Marin (warranty frame.)

    I guess with the different leverage ratios, I don't know if the XV2 would be best for the MV. I would contact Marin and ask them.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulpwoody View Post
    That's quite the detailed description there!

    The XV2 is what is stocked on the new 2011 AT's, and I special ordered the shock since it didn't come with one from Marin (warranty frame.)

    I guess with the different leverage ratios, I don't know if the XV2 would be best for the MV. I would contact Marin and ask them.
    I'm figuring that they would say the XV1 is best, since that is what they chose to spec it with. But apparently I have a different idea of what I want from a rear suspension, judging how this one behaves. WAY too progressive, IMO. A larger air can often mitigate that to some extent. My experience with these things is that a company designs what it thinks works well, and it may line up with your tastes/terrain, or might not. When It is a little off you gotta either tinker with it, or get something else. I can't afford something else, so I'm going to tinker with it.

    My experience talking to Marin has been hit or miss:

    When I first ordered my frame, I thought it was going to come with the Ario shock. I was was looking into what it would cost to replace it with an RP2 or PR23, so I called Marin to find out which RP23 I should get for it (which tune, what sized air can). The guy told me the medium compression tune and standard air can. As it turns out, the frame showed up with an RP2. A welcome surprise, but it turns out I was given some bad info, as the shock is a low tuned compression and XV1 can. Talking to Fox confirmed that this was the spec'ed tune and can.

    When inquiring about the torque specs for the pivot bolts, I got one answer on the phone (25-28 NM) and another via email (16-20 NM, though up to 24 is acceptable).

    When I called about the linkage bearings feeling notched, he was very friendly, and very helpful. Still need to see how this part turns out.
    Last edited by kapusta; 06-21-2011 at 09:01 AM.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Be interesting to see how an XV2 can goes. I was maybe going to machine one up myself at one stage but I suspect you may also need a shock with higher low speed compression which does not affect high speed compression.Later boost valve shocks may be the way to go?The XV2 may induce more mid stroke wallow to get that little extra travel?But combined with running a little less sag then you may be on to something? With the XV1 on my 09 MV I personally find that there is a sweet spot about 20 to 25% sag which works better than 28% to 30% end of the scale. MV leverage ratio is very linear [ straight line]and drops like a stone from very high to very low. It's all about pedaling efficiency on these bikes.They use initial high leverage ratio balanced by high pivot in to give that floaty efficient feel .This leaves a region in the middle of the stroke were it wallows if you aren't pedaling hard and the overall suspension rate curve goes flat. If you have your sag set in that area or you ride in a region of wallow then rapid rising rate. Either way you still don't get full travel so best to set it up so you get better quality travel with less sag.
    My Wolf Ridge has a different leverage ratio profile, still fairly linear with a rise in ratio at the bottom of the stroke and a more linear overall suspension profile. So I can set it at lower 28% sag.
    The AT has the least radical leverage ratio profile of all the Marin bikes and is completely different to the earlier Mv's but close to the 2011 MV. The AT leverage ratio profile looks similar to a Ibis Mojo HD[ bell shaped curve]. The ratio starts moderately high[ small bump compliance] then drops to it's lowest at 100mm travel to counter the air shock mid stroke wallow then rises again at the end to counter the rising rate of the air shock. This gives a more moderate suspension rate profile than the MV without the mid stroke wallow and extreme high rate at the end of the stroke. I'd be surprised if you couldn't use all the travel of a AT.

    I enjoy riding my MV because of the character the suspension gives it. Lush initial travel but stiffens in acceleration and out of the saddle. Lean back going down hill or doing drops and you ride on that last high suspension rate zone like riding on a rubber bump stop. The high initial pivot means the frame hinges in the middle slackening the head angle exiting a bermed corner and manual off a lip. It's just fun to ride fast. I can never ride it slow, even when I intend to.The downside is the fast ramp up over tree roots after the initial rear wheel travel and you only get to use 110mm of the travel.
    I had considered the AT, but it seemed a bit too slack for my needs. Looks like a really fun bike, just not sure it would fit the bill as my do-it-all bike.

    The RP2 the MV came with is a boost valve model.

    I have read a lot of what you have written on here about the leverage ratios and sag settings. With the stock RP2 I tried sag numbers from ~12.5 to 15mm, though my hunch is that we all measure sag a little differently (I still have no idea what static seated position is most representative of how I actually ride). Anyway, for me it seems that around 28-29% is what is working the best. Interestingly, the pressure I run to get that is ~.93 of my riding weight (including a full water pack), which is pretty close to the .95 you have said you run. I find that if I run less sag, the pedal feedback gets noticeably worse, though I do find it an issue in the granny ring even at the lower pressure, just not as bad.

    Anyway, I am still playing with pressures and tweaking the cockpit.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  10. #10
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    The other thing to consider with this frame is under braking it doesn't stiffen up much at all. You get your travel back with spades under braking. Watch under braking how the long links rotate around the virtual pivot.
    My Trance is less progessive and feels better pedalling seated over big woops with it's 130mm travel. But come to extended downhills and the Marin feel like it has double the rear travel of the Trance. I think I run closer to 13mm sag on the MV and 16mm on the WR. But once again it's personal preference for riding conditions. I'm still fiddling with settings after a couple of years. I hated it with a 140mm fork which really made the rear end pack up.

    I'll see if I can post some pics of the suspension rate curves at some stage. It's easier to see in ink.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    The other thing to consider with this frame is under braking it doesn't stiffen up much at all. You get your travel back with spades under braking. Watch under braking how the long links rotate around the virtual pivot.
    My Trance is less progessive and feels better pedalling seated over big woops with it's 130mm travel. But come to extended downhills and the Marin feel like it has double the rear travel of the Trance. I think I run closer to 13mm sag on the MV and 16mm on the WR. But once again it's personal preference for riding conditions. I'm still fiddling with settings after a couple of years. I hated it with a 140mm fork which really made the rear end pack up.

    I'll see if I can post some pics of the suspension rate curves at some stage. It's easier to see in ink.
    Yes, the active braking aspect is appreciated. Of course, for the past 6 years I have been riding frames that were very active under braking (Azonic Saber and MKIII), so I kind of take that for granted at this point. The two frames that I was riding for the 6 years prior to that (Superlight and Heckler) were less active when braking.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Hm, you mention the shock being Pushed for a different bike. It seems any tinkering would be secondary to relevant valving. just sayin'

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalscott View Post
    Hm, you mention the shock being Pushed for a different bike. It seems any tinkering would be secondary to relevant valving. just sayin'
    Valving IS part of the tinkering.

    Just sayin'

    Also, I disagree that spring curve is secondary to compression valving.
    Last edited by kapusta; 06-16-2011 at 12:47 PM.
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    Here's some frame linkage ratios which is only part of the story. MV 09 is similar to MV 10. Both have unique leverage ratio and chain growth [pedal kick back ] profiles. Right at the bottom of the MV leverage ratio profile is where your XV2 sleeve will help. A little platform damping at the start[ allow lower air pressure] and low high speed compression tune would help.

    2009 MV and WR followed by 2011 AT and MV followed by 2011Giant Trance
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    Here is a reply I remember reading from back in '09 about XV and the "hammock" feeling. The response is from MMBJason. He used to answer quite a few questions on here years ago. I don't recall seeing him on MTBR lately though. I wonder if he doesn't work there or was told not to go on the forum.

    "Hello Rekibtm,
    One of the primary design features of the QUAD suspension system is the variable leverage ratio. Your Mount Vision has a much higher leverage ratio at the beginning of the travel that it does at the end of the travel. This effect is called "ramp up". The standard Fox air sleeve also has a naturally progressive spring curve. The XV sleeve has a more linear, or "flatter" spring curve. When this XV sleeve is used on suspension designs with a more naturally linear spring curve (or designs with regressive, or "falling rate" spring curves), the suspension feel could be said to "hammock" during certain parts of the travel. However, due to the QUAD link's natural Rising Rate, the XC Sleeve actually allows the suspension to react more efficiently, and remain compliant, further into it's travel.

    If you were looking for a much firmer ride without sacrificing small bump sensitivity you could switch to the standard air sleeve on your Mount Vision, but you will definitely notice the exaggerated "ramp up", and will not get the full use of the available 120mm of travel.

    I hope this answers your question.

    Have fun!

    Jason
    Marin Bikes "


    I have been prety happy with my RP23, but can't help thinking about getting a pushed Monarch.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flboy View Post
    Here is a reply I remember reading from back in '09 about XV and the "hammock" feeling. The response is from MMBJason. He used to answer quite a few questions on here years ago. I don't recall seeing him on MTBR lately though. I wonder if he doesn't work there or was told not to go on the forum.

    "Hello Rekibtm,
    One of the primary design features of the QUAD suspension system is the variable leverage ratio. Your Mount Vision has a much higher leverage ratio at the beginning of the travel that it does at the end of the travel. This effect is called "ramp up". The standard Fox air sleeve also has a naturally progressive spring curve. The XV sleeve has a more linear, or "flatter" spring curve. When this XV sleeve is used on suspension designs with a more naturally linear spring curve (or designs with regressive, or "falling rate" spring curves), the suspension feel could be said to "hammock" during certain parts of the travel. However, due to the QUAD link's natural Rising Rate, the XC Sleeve actually allows the suspension to react more efficiently, and remain compliant, further into it's travel.

    If you were looking for a much firmer ride without sacrificing small bump sensitivity you could switch to the standard air sleeve on your Mount Vision, but you will definitely notice the exaggerated "ramp up", and will not get the full use of the available 120mm of travel.

    I hope this answers your question.

    Have fun!

    Jason
    Marin Bikes "


    I have been prety happy with my RP23, but can't help thinking about getting a pushed Monarch.
    It looks like Jason is saying that the XV can will lead to some "hammock" on a bikes with a linear or regressive spring curve, but not the QUAD which is progressive.

    My assumption here is that he is comparing the standard can to the XV1 can, not the XV2 can, though I think it makes sense that what he is saying would apply when comparing any higher volume can to the standard can.
    Last edited by kapusta; 06-17-2011 at 07:29 AM.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Here's some frame linkage ratios which is only part of the story. MV 09 is similar to MV 10. Both have unique leverage ratio and chain growth [pedal kick back ] profiles. Right at the bottom of the MV leverage ratio profile is where your XV2 sleeve will help. A little platform damping at the start[ allow lower air pressure] and low high speed compression tune would help.

    2009 MV and WR followed by 2011 AT and MV followed by 2011Giant Trance
    Cool, thanks for the graphs. Where did you get them? I'd be interested to see what my old MKIII looks like for comparison.

    Wow, the leverage really does drop considerably for the Mt vision. I guess one upshot of that is that the last 5-6 mm of shock travel that many are missing is only about ~10-11 mm of actual suspension travel..
    Last edited by kapusta; 06-17-2011 at 07:26 AM.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Yeh it's a pity it uses so much shock stroke fluffing round on the small stuff going backwards instead of up. It has the longest stroke vs vertical travel of all the Marins and nearly all other 120mm bikes. That's why it makes a brilliant epic back country expedition bike because it just eats that small boulder type terrain like no other.And there is virtually zero pedal feedback in that zone as well, so it is does as designed, pedal efficiently on that type of terrain.

    Same reason it's hopeless with a 140mm fork or trying to squeeze in to a too small a frame. Too much rear weight shift on a very weight shift sensitive frame. Highest initial leverage ratio in the business, shortest chain stays in the business and one of the slackest seat stays and shortest wheel bases in the business.

    Here's the MKIII
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    Last edited by gvs_nz; 06-17-2011 at 02:48 PM.

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    One of the dudes from Marin told m the placement of the linkages is what is important, He told me not to go over 130 on a fork. So I have a 130 Rev on my MV. It is just a hair shorter than a 140 Fox. It has been GREAT since I put on the Rev.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Like many people I am reading about on this board, I don't ever see the last ~5mm of shock travel on my mt vision. Mine (2010) came with the RP2 with the XV1 high volume canister. I swapped it for a PUSHed AVA, but it looks like things are about the same in terms of travel, though it does feel a bit better. Still playing with pressures.

    I feels to me like the suspension is just too progressive (with the typical compromises that come with that), and either a coil or higher volume air shock is the way to go.

    I found that fox makes a bigger air canister (XV2) than the one that they spec (XV1). Anyone try this larger air can?

    I am trying to understand why Marin did not spec the larger can to begin with
    It's a pity a 2nd hand coil shock wouldn't fit.

    If your on a budget you may also be able to make your own mini "sub tank" [ remote reservoir] like they used to use on MX forks. I've seen some DIY MX ones using plumbing PVC fittings. You could tune it's volume to suit what you want. Part of an old shock or tire pump with a schrader fitting may also be a candidate. Just need another schrader valve to pressurize the sub tank.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 06-19-2011 at 01:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    It looks like Jason is saying that the XV can will lead to some "hammock" on a bikes with a linear or regressive spring curve, but not the QUAD which is progressive.

    My assumption here is that he is comparing the standard can to the XV1 can, not the XV2 can, though I think it makes sense that what he is saying would apply when comparing any higher volume can to the standard can.
    Hello,
    As a previous poster pointed out, I've not posted in a while. I keep an eye on the forums, and tend more towards trying to help out privately if I see people with unresolved issues. I've watched too many 'officials' wander into trouble, or accidentally pick a fight with a poster or posters.

    Anyway, onto the point of this thread.

    My experience, having done quite a lot of testing with Fox on the Quad Link suspension, is that the XV1 provides the best ride, which is a good balance between terrain management and pedaling efficiency. It's true that the XV2 will allow the Mount Vision to work further into its travel, but not necessarily to the desired effect. In order to stop the bike from moving too easily or deeply into the travel in moderate terrain (which effects pedaling efficiency) I found that I needed to run a firmer compression stack on the BSD shocks, or a higher Boost Pressure on the BV shocks. These combinations yielded a ride that had more of a 'dead' feel, versus the 'lively' or 'poppy' feel I get from the XV1 with the medium compression damper settings (I've also used the term '3D agility' to describe the feeling of a correctly set up Mount Vision).

    The 2010 Mount Vision uses a 7.5 x 2.0 shock (50mm stroke). Not every Fox chassis is capable of pushing the o-ring off the bottom of the shock. The measure of full travel is not if you've blown the o-ring off, but if you've pushed it the full 50mm (in the case of the Mount Vision). Check that measurement after your favorite ride, where you think you should be getting full travel, and see what you get. Also, with the 2010 Mount Vision you can run as much as 16.5mm (11/16", which is 33% of the total rear shock travel). However, the more sag you run, the greater chance you will have of getting some pedal feedback.

    Hope this helps!

    Jason
    Marin Bikes

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    It's a pity a 2nd hand coil shock wouldn't fit.
    I've been thinking about doing this, why wont it fit?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmbjason View Post
    Hello,
    As a previous poster pointed out, I've not posted in a while. I keep an eye on the forums, and tend more towards trying to help out privately if I see people with unresolved issues. I've watched too many 'officials' wander into trouble, or accidentally pick a fight with a poster or posters.

    Anyway, onto the point of this thread.

    My experience, having done quite a lot of testing with Fox on the Quad Link suspension, is that the XV1 provides the best ride, which is a good balance between terrain management and pedaling efficiency. It's true that the XV2 will allow the Mount Vision to work further into its travel, but not necessarily to the desired effect. In order to stop the bike from moving too easily or deeply into the travel in moderate terrain (which effects pedaling efficiency) I found that I needed to run a firmer compression stack on the BSD shocks, or a higher Boost Pressure on the BV shocks. These combinations yielded a ride that had more of a 'dead' feel, versus the 'lively' or 'poppy' feel I get from the XV1 with the medium compression damper settings (I've also used the term '3D agility' to describe the feeling of a correctly set up Mount Vision).

    The 2010 Mount Vision uses a 7.5 x 2.0 shock (50mm stroke). Not every Fox chassis is capable of pushing the o-ring off the bottom of the shock. The measure of full travel is not if you've blown the o-ring off, but if you've pushed it the full 50mm (in the case of the Mount Vision). Check that measurement after your favorite ride, where you think you should be getting full travel, and see what you get. Also, with the 2010 Mount Vision you can run as much as 16.5mm (11/16", which is 33% of the total rear shock travel). However, the more sag you run, the greater chance you will have of getting some pedal feedback.

    Hope this helps!

    Jason
    Marin Bikes
    Thanks a bunch for the input.

    Just to be clear, I measure the shock travel used, not the amount left over. The most I have seen is 45mm with the stock RP2. I was measuring something like 14-15mm sag at the time (I am 175-180 lbs with a full pack, and was running ~165 psi in the shock)

    I am really not that concerned with the remaining 5mm on the shock. Correct me if I am off on this, but my assumption is that even though I am missing 10% of the shock stroke, I am loosing a bit less than that percentage of the actual rear wheel travel, due to the significant change in leverage ratio throughout the travel.

    Right now it feels really good on smaller bumps (2"). It also feels great on drops. Not so much bottomless, as is feels like the drop was simply smaller.

    Where I feel like it is coming up short is on rougher trails, where I am hitting a lot of 3" and larger rocks/roots at speed. I know this is only a 120mm bike, but it still feels pretty rough for this much travel, and does not track well in the rough. It feels like there is a wall this suspension hits, and that at sag I am not that far from it, so when something big comes along, there is not much left to absorb it. I tried running less sag, but then the whole ride just seems too stiff, and climbing anything rocky or rooty became more difficult (it felt to me like pedal feedback, maybe it was just too stiff).

    I was hoping that a more linear travel would give me some more "headroom" beyond where I am @ sag., and maybe let me run a little less sag. But from what I am gathering from your comments, it sounds like having that extra "easy" travel beyond sag also means that you loose that responsive "pop" the bike has. Interesting, I guess that is a tradeoff. My last bike (MKIII, 125mm) handled the rough much better, but definitely sank down in corners, and did not have much pop to it. The Mt Vision is a lot more fun on twisty rolling singletrack with dips and berms. Honestly, I would trade a little bit of that pop and twisty-trail goodness for some more compliance. Fact is, my trails are mostly pretty rough, not a lot of the twisty-bermy-dippy goodness that this bike seems to make the most of.

    Do you have suggestions how I might get more of what I am looking for here?

    I will try going a little greater on the sag and see how that works out. That is interesting what you said about more pedal feedback at greater sag. In the range I have been playing around with, (~12.5mm - 15mm) it seems to be less noticeable at greater sag.

    Out of curiosity, how much is the rear of the bike sagged with the shock sagged to 33%? I am guessing that due to the higher leverage of the linkage in the beginning of the travel that the actual % suspension sag would be significantly greater than the % shock sag. Just wondering if I am thinking about this right.

    Thanks
    Last edited by kapusta; 06-21-2011 at 08:58 AM.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by weedkilla1 View Post
    I've been thinking about doing this, why wont it fit?
    I have not actually tried to fit one, but it looks to me like it is too tight underneath the shock at the rear end. An air shock has a long, narrow shaft on that end, but a coil is a bit wider almost the whole length of the shock.

    Someone needs to get a coil shock and let the rest of us know how it fits. I nominate someone besides me. I think a piggy back res would actually fit OK, I have seen a few pictures of air shocks with piggy backs fitted.

    Maybe Jason could answer this?
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    I called Marin a whiel ago to see if a Monarch Plush woudl fit my MV, and they said no it wouldn't fit because of the piggy back resivoir.

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    It would certainly be a tight fit but the piggyback should clear? I got a dwg of vivid coil and the piggy back extends between the links. In the static position the max width of piggy back is below links. The links drive fwd as the supension compresses and the gap between the lnks gets wider . I've got a dwg of DHX air which I will try and find and post. O9 onwards looks like it will fit as propedal lever goes 90 degree not 180 like 08 which had mid stroke sag problems.Once again piggy back extends between links but max width at centreline of piggy back is below links. I've yet to see if the links will interfere with the piggy back as the suspension compresses.You can play with settings more yourself with DHX but as Jason says it it may not be of use?.

    If I can find one,I'm going to order a xv2 for my WR anyway because I like to play with settings.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 07-04-2011 at 12:12 AM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Both have unique leverage ratio and chain growth [pedal kick back ] profiles.
    Have you got graphs of the chain grown profiles for the Mt Vision and the MKIII (or others) It would be interesting to see.

    Where did you get the data for these graphs?
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    I have, I see if I can post them later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I have, I see if I can post them later.
    Cool, thanks.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Pedal kick back rather than chain growth. Once again I think 2010 is slightly different. Probably displaced more to the right.
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    I'm pretty sure DHX air and ISX-6 Evolver will fit which gives scope for customization without having to send to PUSH. Also has the benefit of not coming with set factory tune like RP23 and Monarch. I read somewhere about Tomac trialling 30 different RP23 tunes when dialing in the ride of one of there bikes.

    ISX-6 is only available in single tube[ low volume sleeve ] in the 190 x 50 size and shock body will have to be rotated to fit.. PM me if you want a copy of Drawing.

    Here's DWG of DHX air but doesn't show pro-pedal lever which on the 09 onward model rotates 90 degree rearward[ 08 rotates 180 degrees and would interfere with fwd top pivot.
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    Just wonder whether getting local shock shock to change out shock fluid to lighter 5 wt may be a good mod if you are having problems over sharp edge hits like tree roots?

    Hadn't ridden my MV for about a month as it is setup single speed and I've got far too may bikes.
    Took it for a spin yesterday and loved it. It felt Cadillac smooth coming off training ride on my 29er hardtail the day before and riding my AX 29er over the previous week.

    I've got a flat smooth section of trail with moguls which is good to compare suspension while pedaling seated. MV felt deep and smooth with characteristic rebound fling at the end of rebound. Was close [ from memory] to Trance x setup with 140mm rear travel and my Wolf Ridge[ from memory]. I used about 47mm travel and running 140 to 145 psi[ guessing about 12 to 14mm sag]. So no probs getting close to full travel over smooth edge big hits. That points to high speed compression tune of shock over the sharp edge hits above about half travel . Easy fix with lighter oil countered with slight increase of air pressure. This will make it more active in the already hyperactive start of the stroke, possible mid stroke wallow. and loose big hit capability.

    The other factor which may influence shock over this terrain is too many clicks on the rebound.
    I've previously noticed this affects performance of shock more than on other bikes. The rad leverage variation over the rebound stroke means if you try to tune out all rebound that occurs at the high leverage tail end of the rebound then you affect the performance at the low leverage start of the rebound. More importantly it also appears to increase compression damping. I put up with a bit of seated fling when pedalling over the big whoops to keep the shock nice and loose. I run less than half way on rebound.

    The other problem I have with all my bikes with air shocks without piggy back is after an 1 hour or so of riding the shock heats up and the rear end becomes harsher. As the rear end on these is so active at the start of the stroke then that may happen sooner than on other bikes.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 07-02-2011 at 07:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flboy View Post
    I called Marin a whiel ago to see if a Monarch Plush woudl fit my MV, and they said no it wouldn't fit because of the piggy back resivoir.
    Just for curiosity I printed off the full size pic of the Monarch plus from the Rockshox site and it is very close to scale size. It looks like the piggyback will clear but the rebound knob at the front would hit the front center linkage.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Just for curiosity I printed off the full size pic of the Monarch plus from the Rockshox site and it is very close to scale size. It looks like the piggyback will clear but the rebound knob at the front would hit the front center linkage.
    Has anyone verified that a regular Monarch would fit? I know the shock itself would, but what about the accessibility of the knobs and Schrader valve? On the AVA I am trying out, I needed to turn the shock around so that the rebound knob is under the shock and very hard to get at, so that I could access the air valve. Even then I needed to modify a pump to access the schrader valve.

    EDIT: Correction. The rebound knob is facing up, not down on the AVA.
    Last edited by kapusta; 07-08-2011 at 07:09 AM.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Maybe try scaling up a drawing. I've seen a few side profile photos. A monarch would be handy for DIY servicing.

    Saw a 2010 Mv in a shop wth a RP23 . Took note of the settings and looks like they have tried for least progressive tune.
    the factory settings were:
    - boost valve tune : 175
    - Rebound tune : M
    - Velocity tune : L

    Is that the same as the stock RP2 on your frame?.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Has anyone verified that a regular Monarch would fit? I know the shock itself would, but what about the accessibility of the knobs and Schrader valve? On the AVA I am trying out, I needed to turn the shock around so that the rebound knob is under the shock and very hard to get at, so that I could access the air valve. Even then I needed to modify a pump to access the schrader valve.
    I had also asked them if a XV Monarch would fit, they said they believe it will fit. because it has very similar dimensions as the Float XV. He also said he thinks the shrader valves are made by the same company so there shouldn't be any issues. BTW, my 2010 MV is much easier to get to the valve compared to the 2008 MV.

    If I had the cash I would get a pushed Monarch. Maybe down the road.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Maybe try scaling up a drawing. I've seen a few side profile photos. A monarch would be handy for DIY servicing.

    Saw a 2010 Mv in a shop wth a RP23 . Took note of the settings and looks like they have tried for least progressive tune.
    the factory settings were:
    - boost valve tune : 175
    - Rebound tune : M
    - Velocity tune : L

    Is that the same as the stock RP2 on your frame?.
    Yes, that is the same setting as my RP2.

    I talked to PUSH about this a week or two ago, and they suggested that the boost valve is likely working against me in my situation. Makes sense to me. If they tune this shock for me they will completely remove the boost valve feature.

    After about 6 rides with the stock RP2, I stuck on the PUSHed AVA from my MKIII, and got about 10 rides in on it. It did feel a tad better in the rough, while at the same time used slightly less travel on drops. I've put the Stock RP2 back on and I have a few rides on it. On drops to flat it (RP2) seems to use a little more travel, yet still feels less compliant in the rough, which makes me think it has less ramp up in the spring curve, but more compression damping, at least at the end of the stroke. I always run the PP in the (-) position. Neither shock is really where I want it for medium bumps, like 2" roots I hit when pedaling or turning. Really big stuff that I am already out of the saddle and pointed in a straight line for are not as big an issue, I can deal with that with finesse. Also, drops to flat are handled brilliantly with both shocks. I do notice that I need to run the rebound on the RP2 a little slower than on the AVA so as not to get bounced over roots on climbs. and I believe that works against me at higher speeds.

    On both shocks, I found around 15.5mm sag to work the best for me. That is, 15.5mm with my maximum load on my back (100oz water plus food (including a banana) and tools. The rear end is really sensitive to weight changes. Without the pack, sag is around 14.3mm. If I run much less sag, it suffers on rough climbs, which are very common for me.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  38. #38
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    For those who want to give it a go . Jensonusa.com can order XV2 cans for you.Should do 190 x 50 and 200 x 50 shocks.

    Fox Float XV2 Canister at JensonUSA.com


    Unless you can get a OEM one , the Monarch RT3, in 190 x 50 is only available in low volume. However high volume can for 190 x 50 and 200 x 50 is available.
    Part # 11.4115.106.090.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 10-28-2011 at 01:27 PM.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    For those who want to give it a go . Jensonusa.com can order XV2 cans for you.Should do 190 x 50 and 200 x 50 shocks.

    Fox Float XV2 Canister at JensonUSA.com


    Unless you can get a OEM one , the Monarch RT3, in 190 x 50 is only available in low volume. However high volume can for 190 x 50 and 200 x 50 is available.
    Part # 11.4115.106.090.
    I was thinking about that air can, but I talked to Fox today, and they said that they do not make an XV2 can for the 190 x 50 shock. What he did suggest was sending it back for a re-valve. The boost on mine is 175, he said they can lower it to125. I am considering this, I think it could help a lot. If it is just a matter of lowering the boost pressure, I might so if someone local can do that.

    Push sells their tuned monarchs with an XV can as an option for about $20 extra.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I was thinking about that air can, but I talked to Fox today, and they said that they do not make an XV2 can for the 190 x 50 shock.
    That's what my local Fox agent said as well. I assume the larger diameter external chamber on the XV2 is the same for a 200 x 50 shock. it's a 2 minute job to swap it over to the 190 x 50.So I took a punt and ordered one from Jenson to see what turns up?
    I will post when it turns up.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    That's what my local Fox agent said as well. I assume the larger diameter external chamber on the XV2 is the same for a 200 x 50 shock. it's a 2 minute job to swap it over to the 190 x 50.So I took a punt and ordered one from Jenson to see what turns up?
    I will post when it turns up.
    Is this for your Mt Vision? If so, I am definitely interested in hearing how it goes.

    I found a place in Asheville, NC that will lower the boost valve pressure for $35. I think I am going to try that. I think lowering it from 175 to 125 might help. This bike does not need any bottom-out help.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  42. #42
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    Cross fingers. I'm hoping that they haven't stuffed up and are sending a XV1 sleeve.

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    I got mine from Jenson's . Have fitted the sleeve to a spare 190 x 50 shock. So definately the right part. Give Fox the benefit of the doubt .Maybe it's very new in the Fox catalog. Put's some doubt on info you can rely on from Fox. If it's designed for 200 x 50 shock they should at least know they are the same item?

    It's a 806-29-085-kit. Doesn't come with Fox decal but has seal and PTFE back up rings fitted.They have the 2012 gold coloured ones but they are $30 extra.

    Will try and fit to the bike some time this week.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I got mine from Jenson's . Have fitted the sleeve to a spare 190 x 50 shock. So definately the right part. Give Fox the benefit of the doubt .Maybe it's very new in the Fox catalog. Put's some doubt on info you can rely on from Fox. If it's designed for 200 x 50 shock they should at least know they are the same item?

    It's a 806-29-085-kit. Doesn't come with Fox decal but has seal and PTFE back up rings fitted.

    Will try and fit to the bike some time this week.
    So it is the same length as the air sleeve it replaced on the 190x50?
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  45. #45
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    Yep. Packaging[ although may be Jenson's] says 7.5 x 2.0, xv2 , 2.08" diam x 1.5" bore.

    Tried it on my Wolf ridge yesterday . I'll try it on my MV next week. I'm getting shock changes down to 1/2 hour now.

    WR has higher initial leverage ratio but less progressive than MV. Still very progressive though.

    Set same pressure as with XV sleeve. Sag was similar, possibly more[ sag is pretty crude and inconsistent] .Garage bounce test was similar, possibly more[ once again a bit inconsistent]

    On the trail I used 3mm more travel on the same circuit. Goes deeper in the travel over pedalling G-outs which use the most travel on this trail. if I was smooth on smooth climbs it felt slightly more active. if you mashed or got out of the saddle it was definitely more active. Whether that's a problem is a personal thing. On this bike I rarely get out of the saddle and all my Fs bikes I climb with propedal on long smooth climbs. Not sure if it blows through mid stroke more? Bounce test in the garage would suggest no. Certainly hard to detect. I can detect it if I run xv sleeve at 5 psi lower pressure.

    I did a second run with 5 psi higher pressure. Sag was slightly less and bounce test was similar. On the trail it felt choppier over rough stuff and bob was similar to xv sleeve with original pressure. Full travel was similar to previous run which was interesting but not conclusive. i'd have to do more runs to confirm that.

    I always like a softer set up for general trail riding. So even though I got more bob, my preference was
    the bigger xv2 sleeve with same pressure as on the first run. Those who just want a bit more squeeze out at the end can use the xv2 sleeve and up the pressure a bit.

    WR has 145mm of travel with shock fully de-pressurised. I normally get 130mm travel on this circuit. I now get 139mm but pay for it with more pedal bob on an already very active bike.The extra 9mm is quality travel. I say that because it is a squeeze out rather than a blow through. Something similar to what boost valve is supposed to achieve on later shocks[mines 2009]. I used to get a bit of a thump in the seat pedalling through G-outs . Now I get a cushier squeeze out. On my Trance X I can put a longer shock which gives me an extra 10mm of travel. It's hard to detect the extra travel as it just blows through and is not progressive.

    The MV should have similar affect but since it has lower initial leverage ratio should have less affect on pedal bob?
    Wouldn't solve your problem riding over tree roots though. Physics is against you there . Only one answer for tree roots. More travel. Wheel size and suspension design only take off the edges.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 11-13-2011 at 11:14 AM.

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    Tried it on the MV today and it's all good.
    Did a run with the OE Xv sleeve with sag set at 15mm. That's the lowest I can run without the shock blowing through mid stroke, resulting in a harsher ride. I used about 44mm of travel. Changed to the XV2 using same are pressure and got 16mm sag and used 49mm of travel. Felt good, especially on the down hills. With that setting this thing really likes the downs. It is the only one of my current bikes, including my Anthem X 29er, that accelerates when coasting over rubble and tree root ridden down hillls. Add that to the, quirky rear end pop, short chain stays and a 650b front wheel and this thing is a hoot. If it feels too soggy I did a run with 5psi extra and sag returned to 15mm , it gave more mid stroke support and used about 48mm of travel.
    No down side that I can see . If there is too much bob or sog just add air and you still get more travel.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Tried it on the MV today and it's all good.
    Did a run with the OE Xv sleeve with sag set at 15mm. That's the lowest I can run without the shock blowing through mid stroke, resulting in a harsher ride. I used about 44mm of travel. Changed to the XV2 using same are pressure and got 16mm sag and used 49mm of travel. Felt good, especially on the down hills. With that setting this thing really likes the downs. It is the only one of my current bikes, including my Anthem X 29er, that accelerates when coasting over rubble and tree root ridden down hillls. Add that to the, quirky rear end pop, short chain stays and a 650b front wheel and this thing is a hoot. If it feels too soggy I did a run with 5psi extra and sag returned to 15mm , it gave more mid stroke support and used about 48mm of travel.
    No down side that I can see . If there is too much bob or sog just add air and you still get more travel.
    Cool, thanks for being the Beta tester

    I might give this one a try.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    It's certainly easy enough hop up. Noticed a lot of wear in top DU bushing this time round. No knocking sound coming from the area though. Something for people to watch out for as this will cause premature wear in pivot bolt. I've got a spare RWC needle bearing kit that is the same as my Giant's top bearings. Bottom was fine as it hardly moves.

    I've also got a 190 x 50 RT3 with large air can that I'm trialling on my Trance X. I'll swap that over some time for a comparison.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 11-15-2011 at 01:49 PM.

  49. #49
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    The RT3 has only got about 6 hrs on it so may become more active over time.
    Tried the RT3 with the large air can on my Trance X. Didn't like it on the Trance x, but showed promise for the MV and WR. It's very linear like my Revelation. Big mid stroke, not much small bump compliance but uses all it's travel easily. Well suited to the very progressive MV and WR. Ok for the Trance X if you want a racy firm pedalling platform. But maestro already has that so the RT3 is a bit over the top for trail use.
    I only got a chance to compare against the XV sleeve RP23 on the Trance x. There I found I had to lower the pressure 10 psi to get sag and travel the same as the RP23 XV. In both cases I got close to full travel but the RP23 is much more active at the top of the stroke even with 10 psi more pressure.

    On the MV and WR I could only compare against RP23 with XV2 sleeve. For a trail bike/race bike, It's a good fit for both, For more downhill/ cruising duties I'd prefer the RP23 xv2. The RT3 tightens up the active top end gives good support for mid stroke but still allows full travel. it's a much tighter ride than the XV2. On the MV I ran 10 psi lower pressure to get the same sag and travel as the RP23 XV2. That's heaps. Still had less bob and better midstroke than the xv2. Which means it sits higher but is more choppy on the downs over tree roots and rocks. I think that is a similar feel to the original xv sleeve?
    Both will give more travel than the original XV, The xv2 is lush and cruisy. While the large can RT3 is starchy and racy in comparison.I think it's less active than OEM XV but will squeezes out more travel. Choose your preferred style of ride. I would say the large can RT3 would give good support for those with a 140mm fork on the MV. I felt the RT3 suited the Mv better than the WR. The WR squeezes out more than the MV so it is easier to blow through the RT3.Which means adding more pressure may make it a bit choppy mid stroke?It gives the WR a much linear feel than OE rp23. just watch you don't blow through travel to easy. I don't think it would suit the AT which has a regressive mid stroke. Might make it way too choppy midstroke over rough terrain.

    I'll try and compare the big can RT3 against OEM xv rp23 at some stage.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 11-29-2011 at 11:13 AM.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Both will give more travel than the original XV, The xv2 is lush and cruisy. While the large can RT3 is starchy and racy in comparison.I think it's less active than OEM XV but will squeezes out more travel.
    I wonder how much of that is due to valving? I had considered the PUSHed Monarch with the high volume can, but was not sure how the spring rate compared to the XV and XV2 RP cans.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    If it's any help I was using low tune RT3 That's low compression tune and medium rebound.PUSH should be able to advise otherwise. My RP23 is 09, so does not have boost valve. I'd try xv2 sleeve first. It really takes those square edge hits when descending well. If your problem is tree roots when seated then neither may be the full answer. More travel reqd.
    The RT3 is a good mod for those who like the way the OE RP23 rides but need to squeeze out a bit more travel with less pedal bob.I wanted to try the RT3 since all my RP23's are due for full service. I'll keep riding it to see if it breaks in a bit. If anyone is looking at the RT3. I'd pull the sleeve off as soon as you get it and put some lube in. There's only a lick of grease in there.

  52. #52
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    Well, I ordered an XV2 can today. The LBS called, and the guy from Fox confirmed that the 190x50 and 200x50 are the same air can.

    I was actually planning on getting the boost valve pressure lowered first, but the place I was talking to about doing it (Suspension Experts in Asheville, NC) said that with 175 in the boost valve and an "L" velocity tune, I was not getting very much compression ramp up at the end of stroke as it is, and lowering it would probably not make a lot of difference in my case. He suggested I first try the larger volume air can. Super helpful guy, despite the fact that his advice was losing him business.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Late to the party but boy you guys have been so helpful and informative in this thread My son has an 08 Mt. Vision that's due for suspension service so I'll order up the XV2 sleeve for his stock RP23 (High volume, Medium compression and rebound) since it sounds like an improvement that's reasonably priced. We live in New England where it's rocks rocks roots roots and more rocks.

    Now.....how does all this stuff all relate to the 2011 XM series Mt. Visions with 140mm travel? I have been SERIOUSLY eyeballing those 2011 frame sets from Adrenaline Bikes (but balking at the $90 shipping charge) and specifically the XM9 with the RP23 shock. Any idea what the setup on this shock is and will it need to be tweaked.

    The 2011 frame with the slack 67.5 HA along with a good 73.5 degree SA and FULL 650B compatability have me frothing at the mouth a bit. The looks....Killer IMO. Adrenaline Bikes, Chumba Mountain Bikes, Mountain Bike Accessories, Mountain Bike Parts, Bicycle Accessories

    Also though.....a 2010 Rocky Mountain Altitude 140mm carbon frame for $1250 from Jenson that's caught my attention (killer deal). These climb like goats from what I read (which I really like) with 76 degree SA and HA at 69 degrees. Adding 650B front wheel and 150mm fork I would get 68 degree HA. (yes I really like 650B and my Prophet is fully converted and I just got a 650B front for my sons MV) Rocky Mountain Altitude 70 RSL Frame '10 at JensonUSA.com

    Anyway, any input/advice you have on the 2011 MV would be helpful and appreciated as there doesn't seem to be alot of owners and reviews.
    Last edited by skidad; 12-01-2011 at 10:08 AM.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Late to the party but boy you guys have been so helpful and informative in this thread My son has an 08 Mt. Vision that's due for suspension service so I'll order up the XV2 sleeve for his stock RP23 (High volume, Medium compression and rebound) since it sounds like an improvement that's reasonably priced. We live in New England where it's rocks rocks roots roots and more rocks.

    Now.....how does all this stuff all relate to the 2011 XM series Mt. Visions with 140mm travel? I have been SERIOUSLY eyeballing those 2011 frame sets from Adrenaline Bikes (but balking at the $90 shipping charge) and specifically the XM9 with the RP23 shock. Any idea what the setup on this shock is and will it need to be tweaked.

    The 2011 frame with the slack 67.5 HA along with a good 73.5 degree SA and FULL 650B compatability have me frothing at the mouth a bit. The looks....Killer IMO. Adrenaline Bikes, Chumba Mountain Bikes, Mountain Bike Accessories, Mountain Bike Parts, Bicycle Accessories

    Also though.....a 2010 Rocky Mountain Altitude 140mm carbon frame for $1250 from Jenson that's caught my attention (killer deal). These climb like goats from what I read (which I really like) with 76 degree SA and HA at 69 degrees. Adding 650B front wheel and 150mm fork I would get 68 degree HA. (yes I really like 650B and my Prophet is fully converted and I just got a 650B front for my sons MV) Rocky Mountain Altitude 70 RSL Frame '10 at JensonUSA.com

    Anyway, any input/advice you have on the 2011 MV would be helpful and appreciated as there doesn't seem to be alot of owners and reviews.
    I gotta say that after my experience with this frame and Marin, I would not buy a frame online if you do not have a dealer close to you that will handle Marin warranty issues. Actually, Marin themselves told me (in so many words) that buying their stuff on line is just asking for problems.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Late to the party but boy you guys have been so helpful and informative in this thread My son has an 08 Mt. Vision that's due for suspension service so I'll order up the XV2 sleeve for his stock RP23 (High volume, Medium compression and rebound) since it sounds like an improvement that's reasonably priced. We live in New England where it's rocks rocks roots roots and more rocks.

    Now.....how does all this stuff all relate to the 2011 XM series Mt. Visions with 140mm travel? I have been SERIOUSLY eyeballing those 2011 frame sets from Adrenaline Bikes (but balking at the $90 shipping charge) and specifically the XM9 with the RP23 shock. Any idea what the setup on this shock is and will it need to be tweaked.

    The 2011 frame with the slack 67.5 HA along with a good 73.5 degree SA and FULL 650B compatability have me frothing at the mouth a bit. The looks....Killer IMO. Adrenaline Bikes, Chumba Mountain Bikes, Mountain Bike Accessories, Mountain Bike Parts, Bicycle Accessories

    Also though.....a 2010 Rocky Mountain Altitude 140mm carbon frame for $1250 from Jenson that's caught my attention (killer deal). These climb like goats from what I read (which I really like) with 76 degree SA and HA at 69 degrees. Adding 650B front wheel and 150mm fork I would get 68 degree HA. (yes I really like 650B and my Prophet is fully converted and I just got a 650B front for my sons MV) Rocky Mountain Altitude 70 RSL Frame '10 at JensonUSA.com

    Anyway, any input/advice you have on the 2011 MV would be helpful and appreciated as there doesn't seem to be alot of owners and reviews.
    I only run 650B when doing AM rides on my WR.For trail riding I find it[ 76 degree head angle plus 650B] too 29erish on trails, suits 69 degree of MV perfect though.

    Only info I have is from what you can see from leverage ratio charts I posted . Overall leverage ratio is slightly more progressive than 5 Spot which goes from 3.5 to 2.65 . In comparison the 11 Mv which goes from 3.55 to 2.45 but has a supported mid stroke[ like the mojo] by dipping down to 2.15 . That could lead to some choppiness over stutter bumps but should have good mid stroke support?. Some complaints about 5 spot have been low mid stroke support and blowing through travel. So those would be happier on the 11 MV as it appears to have that covered? Climbing should be similar[ active not wooden] as both have similar initial leverage ratio and high initial pivot points[ anti squat]. I would say weight of frame is close. The nod to the 5 spot maybe? And geometry is very close. Jenson's have 2011 5 spot at good price now though.

    Anyone try the XV2 high volume air cannister on a Mt Vision?

    Not keen on the straight up RM geo. Steep head angle with long front centres means your pretty stretched out fwd descending and makes it hard to pop the front wheel. I think it's a bit of a marketing gimmick to counteract an overly active rear end design. Spez do the same. Steep seat angles to unload the rear end climbing. When the weight goes rear ward, while standing, it becomes more active, and very plush.

    I'd certainly want to try before I buy with a design out of the box like that.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 12-03-2011 at 01:19 PM.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I gotta say that after my experience with this frame and Marin, I would not buy a frame online if you do not have a dealer close to you that will handle Marin warranty issues. Actually, Marin themselves told me (in so many words) that buying their stuff on line is just asking for problems.
    Must be my remote location. I have low expectations of on line sales besides great deals. Just did the DU bushing on my MV. Seemed like a better deal to buy a new one locally than spending USD 300 return shipping for replacement. In this case, not Adrenaline bikes. I've always understood point of return for warranty is always your retailer. in this case , many many miles away. Buyer beware.

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    So gvs_nz...love your charts but I guess I'm not really sure of what I'm looking at, how to read them exactly and what they mean ride wise besides that the 2011 MV really ramps up at the end of it's travel ? Take the Giant Trance X for instance. Very slight curve vs. the big looping curve of the Marin(s). What does that mean and how does it translate ride wise? (bikechecker.com didn't list the 2011 MV in it's library so where did you get that curve) Can I assume the 11 MV doesn't come with the the XV2 can stock? Since I rarely drop 3' or more and don't need huge bottom out capability I assume the XV2 can would be a good thing? Also the #'s on the left in the graphs indicate what exactly? Some start higher and some lower so what's that about?

    I like the Turner and the 2012 is better yet and the one I would want, hitting on even more of my wish list points but the price is just to much and honestly I'm not really thrilled with the bikes utilitarian looks. The Marin look I just love and I think the bike should be equally capable. Most of the 5 Spots people are building up are in the 30lb range (some more some a little less) and I know the Marin would be similar. The Rocky Mountain is very interesting to me and I like the idea of the Straight Up Geometry and think it makes some sense but not so keen on the 69 degree HA (68.5 for the aluminum model which is not available frame only anyway). Almost all the reviews praise it's climbing along with a twitchey front end. I already have that with my Prophet with the shock set @ 69 degrees the STA is 75 degrees. Drop it to the 67.5 setting and the STA becomes 73.5....almost exactly what the Marin is but I feel the Marin should work better than the single pivot Prophet. Yeah I could throw on a 650B wheel and 150mm fork and the Rocky would probably be just fine but I'm still digging I can mount any 650B back tire on the Marin (yeah, 650B believer, hope DC doesn't see this)

    ....and just for kicks do you have the chart for the 140mm Prophet so I could see what that's like and doing compared to the Marin?

    Thanks, sorry for all the questions but you've got good answers!
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    This is a DC free zone. Probably not for long since Marin now do a 29er FS.
    You probably know as much about the graphs as I do. I'm a good guesser. The left axis is leverage ratio. Wheel travel/shock travel. The leverage graph is useful when comparing bikes with similar suspension systems and shocks. In your case no use with the Prophet as the single pivot activated shock graph is completely opposite to those that use a linkage to activate the shock.There's two other graphs, anti squat and total forces which give better comparison between different suspension systems.At the end of the day nothing beats riding them. So many different systems and graphs and they can feel similar to ride. Add a different type or brand of shock and it can completely change the feel anyway.

    The big difference between Marin's quad link and the Giant Maestro is as you pointed out the shape of the graph. Not so much the u shape but the extent the Marins move from high leverage to low leverage. Very progressive. That makes it very active intially but firms up a lot at the end. They use the initial high pivot pint to give good anti squat and prevent pedal induced bob.The maestro is less active due to the lower ratio and has a lower pivot and less anti squat at the start but can blow through it's travel as leverage ratio is still quite high at the end of the stroke.Like the Marin , suits some terrain not others. Just a different feel.The maestro can be better climbing on smooth climbs and the Marin on rough terrain. That's a generalisation and terrain varies so much. There's plenty of square pegs in round holes as there are suspension designs and mfg take on each design.
    The later MV and the AT have changed that and raised the ratio at the end of the stroke. The u shape just means at mid stroke they lower the ratio which stops the shock blowing through mid travel[ ibis do the same].

    The Altitude sounds ideal for you since your used to riding those angles. CRC had the 90 RSL for about same price. You'll want to flick off the carbon DT swiss shock to your nearest weight weenie though. A 150 fork would be good . I've got a spare white 150 revelation that would look nice on the white 70 RSL.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 12-05-2011 at 01:16 AM.

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    Been for a few rides now on the MV with the large can RT3. Really matches the MV well. Makes it much more linear feel. I rode it back to back with my AX1 29er and it's similar feel with more depth. I would say that my Trance X would be more active and deeper. The MV with XV2 is more active and feels almost as deep as the Trance X.

    It's a very nice balanced ride with the RT3. Feels very efficient but can take the big hits when your seated. Preference is still too the XV2 for the bigger sharper hits and AM type riding.RT3 is a great trail/marathon bike set up.

    I'll try and run RT3 and OEM xv back to back. I would say RT3 would beat it hands down as a more balanced ride. RT3 still may be a bit harsher over successive sharp hits? Have to put back OEM Xv to refresh my memory.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Been for a few rides now on the MV with the large can RT3. Really matches the MV well. Makes it much more linear feel. I rode it back to back with my AX1 29er and it's similar feel with more depth. I would say that my Trance X would be more active and deeper. The MV with XV2 is more active and feels almost as deep as the Trance X.

    It's a very nice balanced ride with the RT3. Feels very efficient but can take the big hits when your seated. Preference is still too the XV2 for the bigger sharper hits and AM type riding.RT3 is a great trail/marathon bike set up.

    I'll try and run RT3 and OEM xv back to back. I would say RT3 would beat it hands down as a more balanced ride. RT3 still may be a bit harsher over successive sharp hits? Have to put back OEM Xv to refresh my memory.
    Thanks, keep the comparisons coming. I should have my xv2 can in another week or so.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Thanks, keep the comparisons coming. I should have my xv2 can in another week or so.
    So, I got the XV2 can in, but it is the exact same size as the can on there now

    It is ~1.88" OD, the same as the stock can. My understanding is that the XV2 should be 2.025" OD.

    The package is labeled XV2, I am assuming the label is wrong. I am really glad I got this through my LBS and not online.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    They stuffed up somewhere. Should look like this one.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Anyone try the XV2 high volume air cannister on a Mt Vision?-dscf00891.jpg  

    Last edited by gvs_nz; 01-14-2012 at 01:13 PM.

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    Another wee graph. Backs up what I experienced. The larger sleeve doesn't have much, if any, influence at the start of the stroke but you reap the benefits at the end.Hence you notice it more standing climbing than seated.
    Graph shows comparison of spring , Rp23 normal sleeve and Rp23 HV1 sleeve on a Banshee Rune.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 01-14-2012 at 02:56 PM.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    They stuffed up somewhere. Should look like this one.
    Did your XV2 (7.5" x 2.0") canister measure the same in length as the XV1?

    The first canister they sent me was an XV1. This time, they sent me an XV2, but it is ~6mm longer than the XV1. I think they sent me one for a 7.875" x 2.25" this time
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    No it's identical in length.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    No it's identical in length.
    Cool, that's what I thought.

    Hopefully, third time will be a charm and they'll get it right
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    gvs_nz, I have been itching to get a PUSHed RT. I really appericiate your reviews of the RT3 and keep 'em coming. I feel as if I am not getting all the performance out the bike that I should be getting. Not quite sure how to pin point it though.

    My MV is a '10 frame with a '08 RP23. I thought I read some where where the Monarch dissapates heat better because of the can design and larger oil volume. Therefore it should perform a bit better in terrain with consecutive small hits. I also should be able to run quite a bit less psi in the RT to get the proper sag. Right now I am running about 230 psi to get 25% sag.

    Thanks for the updates!

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    Sorry I don't having any info on the Pushed RT3. From others comments it must ride completely different to the stock RT3.
    If you try XV2 sleeve first you will gain plushness over consecuative hits. Stock tune on the MV is med compression. If you've got a high compression tune you may be in trouble.

    As far as sag. Are you up around 220 plus lbs. If not I would check your shock is good. My trance x got harsher over time. I stripped the air sleeve off and i couldn't compress the shock by hand. Something amiss in the internals. Yet all I noticed was aslight stiction at sag and the harsher ride.

    The stock RT3 can be run at lower pressure . But you need to, to counter the stiffer ride and get the sag down. Certainly wouldn't say it's any better over multiople small to medium hits than the Rp23. Deep in to the travel is where you will gain plushness from the stock RT3 with the large air can.

    But saying that I do like the ride of the stock RT3 with the large air canon the MV. Firm but plush deeper in to it's travel. I've yet to ride back to back with stock RP23 XV, but for extra travel alone and serviceability it's still a good upgrade.

    Pushed with large sleeve is not much more than stock RT3 buying larger can aftermarket. My bets on the pushed one being lots better.

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    yep I weigh about 235 geared up. My '08 frame cracked so when I got a warranty frame I opened up the shock and cleaned it and put some fresh oil in it, well in the air can.

    Eric at pushed used to ride the same trails here in FL. He said the RT would be a huge upgrade, but so would pushing my RP23. Overall I would get more of performance increase with a tuned RT. He did suggest the RT over the RT3 since there is no serious climbs requiring locked out suspension. LSC control would be more beneficial overall.

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    Sounds like it would be a good one to get onboard. Be good to hear your feedback.

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    Just found out that there are two off the shelf low tunes for the RT3. Mine was a L tune . There is also a L3 tune. The L is more a platform type tune and the L3 is a more progressive tune. So I guess the L relies more on a fixed orifice and the L3 more on a shim stack? I would think the L3 with larger volume air can will feel closer to the RP23 with xv2 sleeve. Whether that's a good or bad thing? My preference would be towards the L3 style as long as you can get full travel.

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    Hey guys,
    I've got an '09 MV8, with RP23 HV (or is it XV?), with a smaller diameter "bulge" than the XV2 can in your picture.
    Is my year PR23 upgradable to the XV2 can?
    What is the ballpark price for the air can?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Cool, that's what I thought.

    Hopefully, third time will be a charm and they'll get it right
    So, third time was NOT a charm, and they sent the wrong one AGAIN!

    7.5x2.0, but XV1
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    Hey guys,
    I've got an '09 MV8, with RP23 HV (or is it XV?), with a smaller diameter "bulge" than the XV2 can in your picture.
    Is my year PR23 upgradable to the XV2 can?
    What is the ballpark price for the air can?
    Should be? Just looking at 08 and 09 Floats look like same sleeve just different graphics.
    From what I can see on the Fox website They are the same since 2005.


    I got mine off Jenson USA as a special order for $65 each.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    So, third time was NOT a charm, and they sent the wrong one AGAIN!

    7.5x2.0, but XV1
    Wow. I can see why you don't like dealing with your LBS. Maybe try Jenson USA . They did a special order for me. Code they used then was RS254Z01 7.5

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Wow. I can see why you don't like dealing with your LBS. Maybe try Jenson USA . They did a special order for me. Code they used then was RS254Z01 7.5
    It's partly the shop for not recognizing the wrong part when it comes in, but the real frustration for me is the fact that fox has sent the wrong item 3 times in a row. I know the guy doing the ordering at the shop, and he is really clear about what I am looking for and even talked to someone at fox after the first one was wrong.

    Not that big of a deal, I do more road riding this time of year anyway., and I've got my backup shock on the bike.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Tried The RT3 L tune big can, back to back, with RP23 XV high compresion tune on my Meta 55. Must say they were very similar. I may have had a bit of bushing drag when I tried it on the MV? But I did use same hardware and MV links only rotate about 10 degrees. I've since added RWC kits to both MV and WR and didn't notice any difference.
    Either way had to sacrifice another RWC bearing kit to trial the RT3 on the Meta, as there was to much bearing drag. The Meta links rotate at least 30 degrees, combined with the lower leverage, and it was very noticeable.

    Both were smooth .The RT3 used more travel [similar difference to that when fitted to MV] . When using same sag. The RT3 was a bit smoother coasting over small tree roots . When worked hard in the mid stroke region the RP23 was a bit smoother. Splitting hairs really. But you get a couple more mm of travel out of the RT3 and it sits higher in the mid stroke. I'm split over whether I like that. Others do . I find it pushs you more in to corners. I'd rather have the shock settle and slacken the head angle.

    All in all I liked it on The Meta . And I must go back and try it on the Mv with a RWC bearing. I think the L3 tune may enable to ride slightly lower pressure without using all the Travel and smoother it out a bit mid stroke.? Good for the Meta anyway.

    I bench marked the Mv with the Rp23 XV2 and that is still very smooth and quick over anything that doesn't push the shock into the last 1/3 of it's travel. Easily as quick as the Meta at the moment. I may swap the RP23 XV2 mid compression tune off the MV and see how that compares.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Wow. I can see why you don't like dealing with your LBS. Maybe try Jenson USA . They did a special order for me. Code they used then was RS254Z01 7.5
    It looks like I'll never know for myself how the XV2 works out. I just jumped on one of the closeout deals from Turner on the 2011 5-Spot frame through my LBS (gave me a really sweet deal because of all the trail work/advocacy I've been doing), and canceled the order for the XV2 sleeve.

    Interestingly, the 5 spot uses the same shock size as the Mt Vision and the MKIII, so I have quite a few options to play with if I get bored.

    Thanks for all the help with this. I guess the Mt Vision and I were just never meant to be.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    I've certainly learned a lot about shock tunes and leverage ratios etc from the exercise. Thanks for starting the thread.


    I really like the 5 spot Geo and suspension curves. And added bonus it can run 650B in the rear. Has a huge fan club for a reason. All the online retailers who are discounting 2011 frames want to rip me off for freight. Add the taxes and it's still not worth my while. I'm a sucker for the short chainstay and fun ride of the MV so will always have one in the stable and am updating my 09 with a 10 frame. Really happy with my recent Meta 5 carbon frame purchase. Added bonus I've found I can run a longer stroke 200 x 56 shock and get 6" rear travel.

    Trialling the RT3 on the Meta, i've have found std can RT3 L is very slightly smoother than a RP23XV mid tune, when run with a couple of mm extra sag. The slight platform feel of the RT3 balances out the extra sag when pedalling and the extra sag gives great midstroke feel to soak up the mid size sharp edge hits. The low compression RP23XV is the best option over the rough terrain. But doesn't pedal as well.Might go for the RT3 as it's 1/2 the price of the RP23 locally.

    Interesting on the lower leverage ratio Meta, the XV2 and large RT3 can were not as smooth, mid stroke, as the smaller volume cans on the same terrain . I think the added shaft speed of the lower leverage ratio, and large can, meant the compression damping kicked in more. Lost a bit of travel though.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 02-06-2012 at 04:57 PM.

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    I know this is a bit after the fact and not really the place anymore, but screw it.

    I've got an 08 mv pro with the medium-compression tune rp23 on it. I usually run w/ the propedal completely off unless I'm on the road or racing, and I've never had a problem not using my full travel. It's nothing unusual for the o-ring to be pushed to the very end of the shaft or even off.

    I dunno what I'm doing different, but I don't find myself wishing for any more in the travel department.

    That being said, with the mkIII talk...
    While this frame is incredibly fun to ride, I don't know if I'll really be on it for years to come. This was the replacement for my MKIII as well, and I guess if I had the choice I'd probably go back to the Iron Horse. The Mount vision just seems a bit squirrely and tenuous at times. It's great because it's easy ride in a loose and entertaining manner at medium speeds for a long period of time, but at the end of the day, I think the mkIII was a bit more capable. It had a much more stable feeling, especially initiating corners. I used to mess around and enter a few lower-category dh races when I was at a race venue for a weekend with the mkIII, and it was easy to be competitive on smoother courses. I didn't feel like I was riding scared at the very edge of control when pushing it at times like that like I do on the Mount Vision, its wheelbase seems just a bit too short. Granted, a great reason for this is the rider, not the bike. I was on the mkIII longer and had more time to get to know its every move better, but while I still have fun riding the Mount Vision, I think I'm going to be moving on to something other as well.

    We'll see though. It could grow on me again yet. It's definitely stiffer and better at the square edged chunk than the mkIII was. The rough-gnar award though would have go to the iron horse.
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    Add a 650B wheel on the Front . Absolute world of difference in the handling, Adds stability and you can really push the front hard and that short CS snaps in behind. I'd never go back to a 26" on the front of the MV. The 08/09 is bike is a perfect geometry match for a 650b front.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 02-18-2012 at 08:12 PM.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by skottt160 View Post
    I know this is a bit after the fact and not really the place anymore, but screw it.

    I've got an 08 mv pro with the medium-compression tune rp23 on it. I usually run w/ the propedal completely off unless I'm on the road or racing, and I've never had a problem not using my full travel. It's nothing unusual for the o-ring to be pushed to the very end of the shaft or even off.

    I dunno what I'm doing different, but I don't find myself wishing for any more in the travel department.

    That being said, with the mkIII talk...
    While this frame is incredibly fun to ride, I don't know if I'll really be on it for years to come. This was the replacement for my MKIII as well, and I guess if I had the choice I'd probably go back to the Iron Horse. The Mount vision just seems a bit squirrely and tenuous at times. It's great because it's easy ride in a loose and entertaining manner at medium speeds for a long period of time, but at the end of the day, I think the mkIII was a bit more capable. It had a much more stable feeling, especially initiating corners. I used to mess around and enter a few lower-category dh races when I was at a race venue for a weekend with the mkIII, and it was easy to be competitive on smoother courses. I didn't feel like I was riding scared at the very edge of control when pushing it at times like that like I do on the Mount Vision, its wheelbase seems just a bit too short. Granted, a great reason for this is the rider, not the bike. I was on the mkIII longer and had more time to get to know its every move better, but while I still have fun riding the Mount Vision, I think I'm going to be moving on to something other as well.

    We'll see though. It could grow on me again yet. It's definitely stiffer and better at the square edged chunk than the mkIII was. The rough-gnar award though would have go to the iron horse.
    I think the MV changed a bit from year to year, enough that the 2008 and 2010 might be quite different.

    I definitely appreciated the stiffness of the MV compared to the MKIII. The difference is quite dramatic, the MKIII is a wet noodle in the rear compared to to the MV. However, I found the MKIII to outperform the MV in pretty much every aspect of my riding save one: smoother, rolling terrain where I can pump the bike through dips and corners. The MV really shines there for me. And of course there is the fact that the MV is most likely NOT going to crack, unlike the MKIII, for which it is almost a given at some point.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  83. #83
    knock-knock...
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    I just dawdled on over to the 650b forum and it looks like it would take a bit to get that going. My fork is a 2006 Revelation U-turn that I've just been nursing on for years replacing the oil and keeping it smooth. It's a quick release version, so there's no hope of going 650b without a different fork. I've got an older dj2 on another bike I could probably try it out on but I lowered that to around 75mm so that won't exactly be prime either. I was recently looking at some of the new manitou forks with the tpc damping that aren't that expensive, but I'm not sure I'm ready to betray my revelation yet. I've read a few good things concerning them, but of the two manitou forks I've ridden, ones compression damper had totally seized up and committed hari-kari before I got my hands on it and the other's seals didn't last a day of riding at a lift serviced resort. (Manitou kingpin stance, baby. ) I went to one of the italy-made 888s following that and there was a world of difference.

    So I guess for a 650b trial I'd have to get my hands on not only a tire and wheel, which I think would be pretty easy, but a fork as well. Maybe a bit in the future.
    i smell a rat-Patrick Henry

  84. #84
    knock-knock...
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    And of course there is the fact that the MV is most likely NOT going to crack, unlike the MKIII, for which it is almost a given at some point.
    There certainly is that. My carcass still hangs from the ceiling in my bedroom.
    i smell a rat-Patrick Henry

  85. #85
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    I've had the air adapter fitting for a couple of months and have finally got round to playing with the IFP[ internal Floating piston] pressure on the RT3. I lowered it to 200 psi and it now feels like a Low Comp tune shock and is much better.I've finally been able to bottom out the MV on a G out. Feels good midrange and over the big stuff it works deeper in to the travel so really works well. You loose out climbing over the med tune Rp23 and the Platform lever is less effective at the lower IFP pressure.

    If you want to make the 08/ 09 MV better over rough terrain I highly recommend the RT3 with large air can L tune and lower the IFP pressure.

  86. #86
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    Plus that for the Wolf Ridge. Just swapped the RT3 over and all is good on the WR as well. the only problem is 190 x 50 is not normally available in large air can.

  87. #87
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    Just checked the outer sleeve of the XV and XV2 air can is the same for the 190 x 50, 200 x 50 and 200 x 56 shocks. I run all sizes on my bikes.

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